I've become so disappointed with the bloat and telemetry built into Windows. Just switched over to Pop!_OS a month ago, and I'm surprised at how far Linux desktops have come in even the last few...
I've become so disappointed with the bloat and telemetry built into Windows. Just switched over to Pop!_OS a month ago, and I'm surprised at how far Linux desktops have come in even the last few years.
Pop!_OS is really impressive. I've been using it on my laptop for fun and while I can't make myself switch over from xfce, they make GNOME infinitely better than it is by default. I'd love to see...
Pop!_OS is really impressive. I've been using it on my laptop for fun and while I can't make myself switch over from xfce, they make GNOME infinitely better than it is by default. I'd love to see that same kind of polish and unity added to other DEs. I guess KDE has been going for that with Plasma for their own hardware but it's not half as nice.
Worth mentioning that if you're trying to revive an old machine like this article suggests, Pop!_OS probably wouldn't be the best choice. It's lighter than Windows, but GNOME remains a resource hog and simply won't feel great on old hardware.
We don't have official hardware though. As for unification - we and GNOME have two different models of work paths so for us there are no clear "official apps" and we are very careful to keep old...
I guess KDE has been going for that with Plasma for their own hardware but it's not half as nice.
We don't have official hardware though. As for unification - we and GNOME have two different models of work paths so for us there are no clear "official apps" and we are very careful to keep old features sacrificing unification work for that if needed. Both methods are solid but they are different.
The core motivations behind Plasma 5 was basically to try to make something as clear as possible (and tbh a tad boring) by default and while Designers where and are available working on tasks, as each individual has control over their own work any changes to a standard or a standard need to be sold in to each contributor. The upshot being that design work is fluent, and allows for "designing around" a problem, but the downside is that its hard to enforce a unified look so things need to be calmly tweaked as time goes by.
My bad, honestly I didn't think there was official hardware until I saw KDE branded laptops on the site just before posting and assume that's what they were. Thanks for the insight, yall do good work.
My bad, honestly I didn't think there was official hardware until I saw KDE branded laptops on the site just before posting and assume that's what they were.
No worries ok so the way that works is that several companies work with the KDE community to produce hardware. Some donate a tad back, others don't its totally up to the hardware providers what...
No worries ok so the way that works is that several companies work with the KDE community to produce hardware. Some donate a tad back, others don't its totally up to the hardware providers what they want to do, but anyone that rocks up often get support and we often show their laptops etc on the front page because... well because its kinda cool isn't it? :)
(also also I designed one of the laser engravings for one of those laptops... just bragging here, don't mind me)
But its not official-official. Its more like they often have a good connection with devs and can straighten out a few bugs quickly and if they lend some devs the machines before launch they often get a very well working version of whatever distro they put on there back.
Absolutely agrees on the Pop OS front. I’ve been whining for ages about how unusable Linux is. Slapped Pop OS onto my machine and honestly it’s the most bug free version of Linux I’ve ever used on...
Absolutely agrees on the Pop OS front. I’ve been whining for ages about how unusable Linux is.
Slapped Pop OS onto my machine and honestly it’s the most bug free version of Linux I’ve ever used on a desktop, and this is with all my proprietary NVidia graphics card drivers etc.
It really is wonderful, but I also agree that gnome is a bit of a bloated beast.
Add me to the Pop party! I don't have much to compare it to, but I love it. I'm very much the kind of person people talk about when they talk about "converting" Windows users to Linux, and Pop!_OS...
Add me to the Pop party! I don't have much to compare it to, but I love it. I'm very much the kind of person people talk about when they talk about "converting" Windows users to Linux, and Pop!_OS has become my full-time daily driver.
True about the resource use but the polish outweighs the possible slowdown surely? I guess it depends on the scale of slowdown but coming from windows any speed boost that also doesn't have the...
True about the resource use but the polish outweighs the possible slowdown surely? I guess it depends on the scale of slowdown but coming from windows any speed boost that also doesn't have the operating system getting in my way is a boon.
Ironic that KDE is now less resource intensive than GNOME. I love how much polish it has, but that is just me loving it and the amount of customization it has. I only use it on an old laptop...
Ironic that KDE is now less resource intensive than GNOME. I love how much polish it has, but that is just me loving it and the amount of customization it has. I only use it on an old laptop though, I need windows for loads of work crap. :(
In fairness we worked for about 2 years with several devs focusing only on performance so its not exactly like it happened by itself and currently with app-summit, GNOME, KDE and the other smaller...
In fairness we worked for about 2 years with several devs focusing only on performance so its not exactly like it happened by itself and currently with app-summit, GNOME, KDE and the other smaller DE's are trying to see if there is any crossover of the performance work each DE has done (Xfce right now is pretty low on devs and their focus was porting to GTK3 for a long while so the hope is that they will benefit more from our work, question is how though)
Ok I got good news for you then at kernel 5.11 (or 5.20 I don't recall two or three releases up ahead) there will be working vac systems. The reason is that Valve sponsored people from a group...
Ok I got good news for you then at kernel 5.11 (or 5.20 I don't recall two or three releases up ahead) there will be working vac systems. The reason is that Valve sponsored people from a group Collabora to work on functioning vac systems and other gamefixes and have that included (like so much more) in the kernel.
I've run into a challenge at my day job, and it concerns helping to show people that linux is in fact a viable alternative, especially for machines that would otherwise get tossed to the dump*....
I've run into a challenge at my day job, and it concerns helping to show people that linux is in fact a viable alternative, especially for machines that would otherwise get tossed to the dump*.
For context, I work for a non-profit which helps folks who struggle with finances (think: like your small business owner like local mechanic, but who still struggles with day-to-day costs; also factory workers working 2 or 3 jobs, etc.). We don't give money; instead, we advocate for these individuals/families but also help setup programs that they can leverage t help them. Well, as any modern organization we go through our lifecycle of computing devices. Their current practice is to pay for disposal or leave stuff to gather dust (until funds are raised to pay for disposal). When i started (earlier this year) with the org. and learned what had been happening, i suggested why not try linux? And if these machines - with linux, libreoffice, etc. - were not suitable for the org, maybe at least we can donate them to the children of he families whom we help...Well, that was met with confusion and polite pessimism. They're very much of the mind that nothing can replace MS Office - which i've proven is not the case for the lack of complex tasks that this org conducts...yet, they've been almost brainwashed.
In addition, when i noted that we could still donate the machines to the families that we support and these kids could learn about computing, my org continued to resist...because they felt that these children won't learn the tools that are used in the enterprise (Office 365), and hence won't help them get jobs in the future. I've tried explaining that if kids could learn google suite or libreoffice, they can learn MS Office quote straight-forwardly...but my peers just won't give in. To make matters weirder, a peer org that does the exact same thing that we do but in a different geographic area (but still in the same state), actually runs a program to leverage Xubuntu, and has done so successfully donating thousands of computers over the last 6 or so years. I should add that my peers are by no means evil or anything awful like that...they just don't understand that anything else beyond Microsoft is any good. So...my questions to folks here: Does anyone have any suggestions that i can use to help convince my senior peers about the viability of linux - either for the office, or at least for donations to kids who live on the tough side of the digital divide????
To clarify, my co-workers would never just "toss machines into the dump"...They are very good, up-standing citizens who would pay a service to properly dispose of the electronic devices.
Linux is basically a requirement for a lot of tech jobs today. Want to work DevOps? Want to build websites and web applications? You're going to want to know Linux because that's where it's huge....
Linux is basically a requirement for a lot of tech jobs today. Want to work DevOps? Want to build websites and web applications? You're going to want to know Linux because that's where it's huge. Even if you want to learn about embedded computing, most high-end appliances are powered by Linux.
In any case, most enterprise tools today are simply run through the browser, and in that case Linux has plenty of choices that will work perfectly fine (until you get to ancient ones using ActiveX controls, but if a company is using that years after Microsoft said to stop, it's their own damn fault)
I agree with you 100%! I also previously used arguments similar to your approach that high-paying jobs requires skills like using linux (plus lots more of course), STEM, etc...but they still...
I agree with you 100%! I also previously used arguments similar to your approach that high-paying jobs requires skills like using linux (plus lots more of course), STEM, etc...but they still weren't comfortable about the idea. However, i did not mention that so many apps these days run via the web browser...maybe i'll try that. Again, the folks that i work with are not evil...i feel that the MS Office kool aid just runs so deep, that they legitimately (and innocently!!) believe that there is no valid alternative. I'll give this "browser approach" a shot. Thanks!
Honestly the web thing is the biggest thing to emphasize imo. Do not show MS Office users fucking Libre Office or Open Office, that has been imo the single biggest instant turnoff whenever people...
Honestly the web thing is the biggest thing to emphasize imo. Do not show MS Office users fucking Libre Office or Open Office, that has been imo the single biggest instant turnoff whenever people try to convince others to switch.
Talk and show G suite. Google drive, sheets, and so forth.
I agree with you! However, more and more - at least on some topics - the folks that i encounter are not won over with rational arguments...i have to win their hearts and minds via other ways. I...
I agree with you! However, more and more - at least on some topics - the folks that i encounter are not won over with rational arguments...i have to win their hearts and minds via other ways.
Show people the tools they prefer, of course...
I agree with you here as well...but in the case of my peers, since we're a not-for-profit, I'm trying to save them operating costs. :-)
Im just here to say that Open Office is a massive no. Its more or less a dead project but lives on because its a brand name people recognize. Libreoffice on the other hand... ooof swear by it.
Im just here to say that Open Office is a massive no. Its more or less a dead project but lives on because its a brand name people recognize. Libreoffice on the other hand... ooof swear by it.
Yep, i'm learning that more and more. Funny enough, whenever i've offered alternatives to other desktop apps - as long as it doesn't have to do with MS Office - my peers (and other folks at...
the web thing is the biggest thing to emphasize imo. Do not show MS Office users fucking Libre Office or Open Office...
Yep, i'm learning that more and more. Funny enough, whenever i've offered alternatives to other desktop apps - as long as it doesn't have to do with MS Office - my peers (and other folks at previous jobs) often have an open mind...not always but more often than not. But the moment things get close to MS Office some people can not imagine that anything else exists out there. I'm going to try the "web thing approach", as it certainly sounds reasonable. Thanks!
So its been a while since I tried to play around with LibreOffice, have they improved it a lot over the last few years? I use to have lots of issues where customers would send me excel...
So its been a while since I tried to play around with LibreOffice, have they improved it a lot over the last few years? I use to have lots of issues where customers would send me excel spreadsheets and I could never get them to open right in LibreOffice. That would be a very legitimate non-starter for a lot of people. Then there is the fight of if anyone uses any extensions you have to find the equivalent in LibreOffice and teach them how to use that.
I'd think you'd be better off looking at a cloud editor like sheets or O365 (which I thought runs on linux but again, I'm not sure. I gave up and went to Mac). Though, an old laptops ability to use those apps may vary and then we're back to square one...
I do feel that libreOffice has improved greatly; and continues to improve with each new iteration...but that is such a subjective thing for me to state. Although i can absolutely imagine scenarios...
I do feel that libreOffice has improved greatly; and continues to improve with each new iteration...but that is such a subjective thing for me to state. Although i can absolutely imagine scenarios where enterprises might have complex logic within spreadsheets, that who knows how libreoffice might work (or not). From the perspective of my org., the most complex thing that i see my folks use in excel is applying auto filters and maybe sorting columns (most folks here do not know what a macro is nor have ever used one, etc.)...So, the needs of the org are really, pretty basic; and i think pair well with libreoffice...except for the willingness to use anything other than MS Office.
After reading all these comments, i'm going to try and persuade folks to try things "via the web browser", and see how it goes.
If nothing else, it is a foot in the door. IMO, once you get them using Linux, you're golden. They'll get use to things running in Linux and realize things are less scary, meanwhile you can slowly...
If nothing else, it is a foot in the door. IMO, once you get them using Linux, you're golden. They'll get use to things running in Linux and realize things are less scary, meanwhile you can slowly ease people into LibreOffice (since you said saving $$$ on microsoft licenses is one of your goals). In my limited experience, asking people to change operating systems at the same time as their workflow is a bit too big an ask. Ask them to change their os but not their workflow and they'll be fine 99/100 days and when things go off the rails you're around to help. Ask them to change their workflow but not their OS and they're mad that their workflow is changing, but at least it is in a familiar environment. Change both and you've got an unfamiliar workflow in a scary new OS and (again, in my experience) they get overwhelmed and shut down, even if the fix is simple and the error messages tell you what to do. I think you're going down the right route for long-term success.
Linux Mint is a great recommendation. A solid Ubuntu LTS base with extra niceties and a lightweight desktop environment that will feel familiar for any Windows user.
Linux Mint is a great recommendation. A solid Ubuntu LTS base with extra niceties and a lightweight desktop environment that will feel familiar for any Windows user.
Wow, this gives me nostalgia for a year or two ago when I did this while first starting to learn programming. My Mom let me have her laptop that she never used anyways, but then I found out that...
Wow, this gives me nostalgia for a year or two ago when I did this while first starting to learn programming. My Mom let me have her laptop that she never used anyways, but then I found out that Windows 10 was sloooww on it.
So I did what I’d always read about on reddit - I flashed Ubuntu on to it. I tried vanilla, Lubuntu, then eventually settled into Kubuntu. It was frustrating, with lots of errors, and the laptops still slow — but it was fun!
This is a great article, and I am excited to see a greater push for Linux. However, the Verge is a tech oriented website, is it not? These kinds of articles need to be pushed out to mainstream...
This is a great article, and I am excited to see a greater push for Linux. However, the Verge is a tech oriented website, is it not? These kinds of articles need to be pushed out to mainstream news sites in order for it to gain traction. I tried a few years ago to get my mom on Windows. It turned out to be some esoteric scanner thing she had that would NOT play with Linux that stopped that. That and her complaining about it not being Windows. If she didn't live multiple states away, or had half decent internet, I would have pushed the issue. Instead I just installed Windows and walked away. :'(
I've become so disappointed with the bloat and telemetry built into Windows. Just switched over to Pop!_OS a month ago, and I'm surprised at how far Linux desktops have come in even the last few years.
Pop!_OS is really impressive. I've been using it on my laptop for fun and while I can't make myself switch over from xfce, they make GNOME infinitely better than it is by default. I'd love to see that same kind of polish and unity added to other DEs. I guess KDE has been going for that with Plasma for their own hardware but it's not half as nice.
Worth mentioning that if you're trying to revive an old machine like this article suggests, Pop!_OS probably wouldn't be the best choice. It's lighter than Windows, but GNOME remains a resource hog and simply won't feel great on old hardware.
We don't have official hardware though. As for unification - we and GNOME have two different models of work paths so for us there are no clear "official apps" and we are very careful to keep old features sacrificing unification work for that if needed. Both methods are solid but they are different.
The core motivations behind Plasma 5 was basically to try to make something as clear as possible (and tbh a tad boring) by default and while Designers where and are available working on tasks, as each individual has control over their own work any changes to a standard or a standard need to be sold in to each contributor. The upshot being that design work is fluent, and allows for "designing around" a problem, but the downside is that its hard to enforce a unified look so things need to be calmly tweaked as time goes by.
My bad, honestly I didn't think there was official hardware until I saw KDE branded laptops on the site just before posting and assume that's what they were.
Thanks for the insight, yall do good work.
No worries ok so the way that works is that several companies work with the KDE community to produce hardware. Some donate a tad back, others don't its totally up to the hardware providers what they want to do, but anyone that rocks up often get support and we often show their laptops etc on the front page because... well because its kinda cool isn't it? :)
(also also I designed one of the laser engravings for one of those laptops... just bragging here, don't mind me)
But its not official-official. Its more like they often have a good connection with devs and can straighten out a few bugs quickly and if they lend some devs the machines before launch they often get a very well working version of whatever distro they put on there back.
Absolutely agrees on the Pop OS front. I’ve been whining for ages about how unusable Linux is.
Slapped Pop OS onto my machine and honestly it’s the most bug free version of Linux I’ve ever used on a desktop, and this is with all my proprietary NVidia graphics card drivers etc.
It really is wonderful, but I also agree that gnome is a bit of a bloated beast.
EDIT: Spelling fix from mobile phone
Add me to the Pop party! I don't have much to compare it to, but I love it. I'm very much the kind of person people talk about when they talk about "converting" Windows users to Linux, and Pop!_OS has become my full-time daily driver.
True about the resource use but the polish outweighs the possible slowdown surely? I guess it depends on the scale of slowdown but coming from windows any speed boost that also doesn't have the operating system getting in my way is a boon.
That's fair. I guess my experience has been with kit that isn't as old as old can be.
Ironic that KDE is now less resource intensive than GNOME. I love how much polish it has, but that is just me loving it and the amount of customization it has. I only use it on an old laptop though, I need windows for loads of work crap. :(
In fairness we worked for about 2 years with several devs focusing only on performance so its not exactly like it happened by itself and currently with app-summit, GNOME, KDE and the other smaller DE's are trying to see if there is any crossover of the performance work each DE has done (Xfce right now is pretty low on devs and their focus was porting to GTK3 for a long while so the hope is that they will benefit more from our work, question is how though)
Ok I got good news for you then at kernel 5.11 (or 5.20 I don't recall two or three releases up ahead) there will be working vac systems. The reason is that Valve sponsored people from a group Collabora to work on functioning vac systems and other gamefixes and have that included (like so much more) in the kernel.
So 1/2 of your issues sorted!
Mmmmrggmmmr fine true... Well at least its something, right?
I've run into a challenge at my day job, and it concerns helping to show people that linux is in fact a viable alternative, especially for machines that would otherwise get tossed to the dump*.
For context, I work for a non-profit which helps folks who struggle with finances (think: like your small business owner like local mechanic, but who still struggles with day-to-day costs; also factory workers working 2 or 3 jobs, etc.). We don't give money; instead, we advocate for these individuals/families but also help setup programs that they can leverage t help them. Well, as any modern organization we go through our lifecycle of computing devices. Their current practice is to pay for disposal or leave stuff to gather dust (until funds are raised to pay for disposal). When i started (earlier this year) with the org. and learned what had been happening, i suggested why not try linux? And if these machines - with linux, libreoffice, etc. - were not suitable for the org, maybe at least we can donate them to the children of he families whom we help...Well, that was met with confusion and polite pessimism. They're very much of the mind that nothing can replace MS Office - which i've proven is not the case for the lack of complex tasks that this org conducts...yet, they've been almost brainwashed.
In addition, when i noted that we could still donate the machines to the families that we support and these kids could learn about computing, my org continued to resist...because they felt that these children won't learn the tools that are used in the enterprise (Office 365), and hence won't help them get jobs in the future. I've tried explaining that if kids could learn google suite or libreoffice, they can learn MS Office quote straight-forwardly...but my peers just won't give in. To make matters weirder, a peer org that does the exact same thing that we do but in a different geographic area (but still in the same state), actually runs a program to leverage Xubuntu, and has done so successfully donating thousands of computers over the last 6 or so years. I should add that my peers are by no means evil or anything awful like that...they just don't understand that anything else beyond Microsoft is any good. So...my questions to folks here: Does anyone have any suggestions that i can use to help convince my senior peers about the viability of linux - either for the office, or at least for donations to kids who live on the tough side of the digital divide????
Linux is basically a requirement for a lot of tech jobs today. Want to work DevOps? Want to build websites and web applications? You're going to want to know Linux because that's where it's huge. Even if you want to learn about embedded computing, most high-end appliances are powered by Linux.
In any case, most enterprise tools today are simply run through the browser, and in that case Linux has plenty of choices that will work perfectly fine (until you get to ancient ones using ActiveX controls, but if a company is using that years after Microsoft said to stop, it's their own damn fault)
I agree with you 100%! I also previously used arguments similar to your approach that high-paying jobs requires skills like using linux (plus lots more of course), STEM, etc...but they still weren't comfortable about the idea. However, i did not mention that so many apps these days run via the web browser...maybe i'll try that. Again, the folks that i work with are not evil...i feel that the MS Office kool aid just runs so deep, that they legitimately (and innocently!!) believe that there is no valid alternative. I'll give this "browser approach" a shot. Thanks!
Honestly the web thing is the biggest thing to emphasize imo. Do not show MS Office users fucking Libre Office or Open Office, that has been imo the single biggest instant turnoff whenever people try to convince others to switch.
Talk and show G suite. Google drive, sheets, and so forth.
I agree with you! However, more and more - at least on some topics - the folks that i encounter are not won over with rational arguments...i have to win their hearts and minds via other ways.
I agree with you here as well...but in the case of my peers, since we're a not-for-profit, I'm trying to save them operating costs. :-)
Im just here to say that Open Office is a massive no. Its more or less a dead project but lives on because its a brand name people recognize. Libreoffice on the other hand... ooof swear by it.
Yep, i'm learning that more and more. Funny enough, whenever i've offered alternatives to other desktop apps - as long as it doesn't have to do with MS Office - my peers (and other folks at previous jobs) often have an open mind...not always but more often than not. But the moment things get close to MS Office some people can not imagine that anything else exists out there. I'm going to try the "web thing approach", as it certainly sounds reasonable. Thanks!
So its been a while since I tried to play around with LibreOffice, have they improved it a lot over the last few years? I use to have lots of issues where customers would send me excel spreadsheets and I could never get them to open right in LibreOffice. That would be a very legitimate non-starter for a lot of people. Then there is the fight of if anyone uses any extensions you have to find the equivalent in LibreOffice and teach them how to use that.
I'd think you'd be better off looking at a cloud editor like sheets or O365 (which I thought runs on linux but again, I'm not sure. I gave up and went to Mac). Though, an old laptops ability to use those apps may vary and then we're back to square one...
I do feel that libreOffice has improved greatly; and continues to improve with each new iteration...but that is such a subjective thing for me to state. Although i can absolutely imagine scenarios where enterprises might have complex logic within spreadsheets, that who knows how libreoffice might work (or not). From the perspective of my org., the most complex thing that i see my folks use in excel is applying auto filters and maybe sorting columns (most folks here do not know what a macro is nor have ever used one, etc.)...So, the needs of the org are really, pretty basic; and i think pair well with libreoffice...except for the willingness to use anything other than MS Office.
After reading all these comments, i'm going to try and persuade folks to try things "via the web browser", and see how it goes.
If nothing else, it is a foot in the door. IMO, once you get them using Linux, you're golden. They'll get use to things running in Linux and realize things are less scary, meanwhile you can slowly ease people into LibreOffice (since you said saving $$$ on microsoft licenses is one of your goals). In my limited experience, asking people to change operating systems at the same time as their workflow is a bit too big an ask. Ask them to change their os but not their workflow and they'll be fine 99/100 days and when things go off the rails you're around to help. Ask them to change their workflow but not their OS and they're mad that their workflow is changing, but at least it is in a familiar environment. Change both and you've got an unfamiliar workflow in a scary new OS and (again, in my experience) they get overwhelmed and shut down, even if the fix is simple and the error messages tell you what to do. I think you're going down the right route for long-term success.
Thank you for your comments! I especially really appreciate that relationship between changing of OS and changing of workflow; very insightful!
Linux Mint is a great recommendation. A solid Ubuntu LTS base with extra niceties and a lightweight desktop environment that will feel familiar for any Windows user.
Wow, this gives me nostalgia for a year or two ago when I did this while first starting to learn programming. My Mom let me have her laptop that she never used anyways, but then I found out that Windows 10 was sloooww on it.
So I did what I’d always read about on reddit - I flashed Ubuntu on to it. I tried vanilla, Lubuntu, then eventually settled into Kubuntu. It was frustrating, with lots of errors, and the laptops still slow — but it was fun!
Don’t toss the old technology — give it a new OS. It's really not the hard to add a new Linux to an old PC.
This is a great article, and I am excited to see a greater push for Linux. However, the Verge is a tech oriented website, is it not? These kinds of articles need to be pushed out to mainstream news sites in order for it to gain traction. I tried a few years ago to get my mom on Windows. It turned out to be some esoteric scanner thing she had that would NOT play with Linux that stopped that. That and her complaining about it not being Windows. If she didn't live multiple states away, or had half decent internet, I would have pushed the issue. Instead I just installed Windows and walked away. :'(