I thought I saw a ghost for a moment. Personally I thought it looks too much like Reddit. I hope that doesn't offend you because the Reddit design is OK, but I'm starting to prefer how things are...
I thought I saw a ghost for a moment.
Personally I thought it looks too much like Reddit.
I hope that doesn't offend you because the Reddit design is OK, but I'm starting to prefer how things are laid out over here.
My main gripe with Tildes compared to reddit right now is that the vote count and button is on the right. This is miles and miles away from where my eyes initially start. We read from left to...
My main gripe with Tildes compared to reddit right now is that the vote count and button is on the right. This is miles and miles away from where my eyes initially start. We read from left to right, things being on the left is just comfortable.
That is exactly the reason for the location, to force you to judge the content on its own merits and not the votes first. Same with the vote button/amount being below the comment itself instead of...
That is exactly the reason for the location, to force you to judge the content on its own merits and not the votes first. Same with the vote button/amount being below the comment itself instead of the first thing you see, like on reddit.
I know. I understood that the first time it was mentioned above. I'm saying that I fundamentally disagree with trying to make a user use something in a way that their gut instinct says "this feels...
I know. I understood that the first time it was mentioned above.
I'm saying that I fundamentally disagree with trying to make a user use something in a way that their gut instinct says "this feels wrong".
Users will feel like it provides a bad experience and that adds one more reason to go use somewhere else where things feel right.
Feel is incredibly important to a user. They don't want to feel like they're at odds with the very way the site is designed, especially not on every single post they visit on the site. It'll be a source of a consistent negative feeling that they will receive on every single post they interact with.
I don't even think it has the intended effect anyway. If this were something that actually affected user behaviour in a positive way then every subreddit would be using css that puts the vote box on the right in their subs. Do you know any that do?
Seems like disabling votes and other css things that subreddits tested but then reverted or never continued because it never demonstrated any meaningful change in user behaviour while only annoying people.
While I understand your point, don't you think that "feels good/bad" sensation might be caused by habit though? You mention some subreddits tried this kind of thing and it didn't work, but maybe...
While I understand your point, don't you think that "feels good/bad" sensation might be caused by habit though?
You mention some subreddits tried this kind of thing and it didn't work, but maybe it was because the rest of the site was different and thus they were presented with conflicting designs? (I'm just guessing)
You can look at Facebook, for example. Their "votes" are at the bottom of posts and that doesn't seem to be a problem. I think this has more to do with habit, and new habits can be developed (you usually need about three weeks to do that IIRC).
Also, it might be worth considering it seems there's plenty of users here who aren't unhappy with the current vote count placement, so it is definitely not something inherent, I believe.
This is my thought exactly. Yes, people are used to having the votes on the left because it's easier -- but that doesn't mean it aligns with tildes' broader design goals. That said, I'm sure...
don't you think that "feels good/bad" sensation might be caused by habit though?
This is my thought exactly. Yes, people are used to having the votes on the left because it's easier -- but that doesn't mean it aligns with tildes' broader design goals.
That said, I'm sure Tildes will figure out a more coherent design language in time. What we have now is pretty good for an alpha. I don't think there's much point in worrying about smaller design flaws when we're still missing some Big Functionality.
Of course! It could very well be. I just don't think it is. And having run many attempts at changing reddit layouts in the many communities I've been mod for in the past, we never once saw...
Of course! It could very well be.
I just don't think it is. And having run many attempts at changing reddit layouts in the many communities I've been mod for in the past, we never once saw anything that meaningfully changed user behaviour.
Human beings want to behave in a certain way. The only things that change the ways they want to behave are:
Good rules and highly active moderation.
Getting downvoted to death by an existing community heavily invested in keeping the community culture.
Incentives.
Users will literally go out of their way to fight against site's design that tries to fight their behaviour via UI alone, and it won't work. It is the online equivalent of hostile architecture, the only way to make it work is to also make it so hostile that it is also unpleasant for users that you don't need it for. At that point it just becomes a net-negative people hate because it does more harm than good. Not that this one is at that point right now, but I just think it's not hostile enough to have any effect on user behaviour but is a noticeable minor irritant.
But isn't that the problem? That you are focusing your comparison on a website where people are already used to a specific layout? And any attempts to change the layout of specific subs doesn't...
And having run many attempts at changing reddit layouts in the many communities I've been mod
But isn't that the problem? That you are focusing your comparison on a website where people are already used to a specific layout? And any attempts to change the layout of specific subs doesn't expand to the rest of subs causing inconsistency and thus "bad feelings"? What do you think about the Facebook argument I gave before?
[Too many questions, I know, sorry.]
I don't have any designing experience, so I trust your opinion on that more than mine. But the rest of your comment seems to me to be a bit too rigid (that humans want to behave in a certain way), I don't understand why you have such a belief. Aren't humans one of the most adaptable animals? I don't know, I think it's a very strong assertion...
I'm just basing it on personal experience trying to make reddit's userbase behave better via css changes and failing in numerous subs. The facebook argument is a fine one. I would be happier with...
I'm just basing it on personal experience trying to make reddit's userbase behave better via css changes and failing in numerous subs. The facebook argument is a fine one. I would be happier with small vote counts below the posts. It is on the left for them, just smaller and beneath.
This would feel better and still stop the other behaviours people are swearing that this fixes. So would be a compromise. I still don't think it will actually change any behaviour though.
An alternative way to look at it - Why show vote number AT ALL if people think vote number is a significant issue before people have read a submission? Why not make vote number not visible until after a user votes?
The vote number is visible for the purpose of pre-sorting and judging content prior to viewing it. Working around it by putting it on the right ignores the fact that having the number be visible exists for the very thing that this right-design is intending to be against.
If people are against seeing the vote number before judging the content, then don't show the vote number at all until people have actually judged the content, and put the vote button in the more sensible position that feels better for the user.
Having it be visible for the purpose of content pre-judgement while simultaneously trying to fight content pre-judgement are concepts that are entirely at odds with one another.
Fair enough. I just wanted to poit out that changing the layout in just one sub, even if we accept this would conduct to a change in user behavior, is probably not enough to enact that change if...
I'm just basing it on personal experience trying to make reddit's userbase behave better via css changes and failing in numerous subs.
Fair enough. I just wanted to poit out that changing the layout in just one sub, even if we accept this would conduct to a change in user behavior, is probably not enough to enact that change if the user has the standard layout in all other subreddits. So maybe your experiments didn't fail because of human nature, but because of the rest of the reddit environment (layout). I guess you can agree that's a possibility as well.
I would be happier with small vote counts below the posts. It is on the left for them, just smaller and beneath.
This is a perfectly reasonable stance and I'm sure the dev would consider it since it appeases both sides.
I still don't think it will actually change any behaviour though.
Well, you need to try to be able to know that. And you need to try in the specific environment (tildes, not somewhere else). Unless there is sim scientific studies about this, and I am sure @Deimos would be happy to read those and act accordingly. So let him know if you have some references.
Why show vote number AT ALL if people think vote number is a significant issue before people have read a submission? Why not make vote number not visible until after a user votes?
Sure, that is a very good idea, imo. It has been discussed a bit in this thread, take a look for a bit of background discussion. It's not entirely the same, I don't think the idea of showing votes only after voting was discussed and I think it's an interesting one. You should suggest it if you think it makes sense.
On a side note, I was reading your conversation above, and I agree @cfabbro wasn't as polite as they usually are, so I can definitely understand you got upset. I also think that you were a bit too assertive in your opinion with only anecdotal experience, tbh, which I guess what the trigger. Let's just not get carried away.
Well then you fundamentally disagree with the core principles of ~ Catering to users "feelings" and base desires is not what this site is about. Catering to those things is precisely what has...
Well then you fundamentally disagree with the core principles of ~
Catering to users "feelings" and base desires is not what this site is about. Catering to those things is precisely what has caused all the issues the other platforms suffer from and further perpetuate - appeals to emotion drowning out thoughtful/rational discourse, hate/fear/anger bait being used to distort reality and create social discord, people thinking their beliefs/gut feelings/opinions matter more than facts, etc. etc. etc.
Just take a few minutes to read the blog and goals already before you respond again, please! :P
I think you're being pretty combative with "So what are you even doing here?". I'm here because I was invited, directly by Deimorz, because of a comment I wrote on /r/redesign about reddit...
I think you're being pretty combative with "So what are you even doing here?".
I'm here because I was invited, directly by Deimorz, because of a comment I wrote on /r/redesign about reddit alienating text based communities.
I'm entitled to believe in high quality discussion while also simultaneously holding the opinion that part of the UI is not a net-positive for the site.
What Tildes does not need is people saying "What are you even doing here?" when they encounter people that hold different opinions to them.
EDIT: I see you have edited the combative part out of your comment, but not soon enough I'm afraid.
Come on, guys. This is a great site, and I'm pretty sure that the volunteer admins are doing a ton of work on little sleep, so it might be nice to cut them a little slack. They're probably better...
Come on, guys. This is a great site, and I'm pretty sure that the volunteer admins are doing a ton of work on little sleep, so it might be nice to cut them a little slack. They're probably better people than me, but if I was working on promoting something and most of what I heard was constructive criticism, I'd probably get a little irritated occasionally, too. Not trying to put words in their mouths, just thinking about how I would feel if I heard my infant project's goals were only "annoying" people. @cfabbro has been with ~ since the beginning, and from what I've seen, they are kind and helpful. And probably thought better of the aforementioned comment, but didn't make the edit in time for you to not see it.
Anyway, even if similar UI changes have been tried at reddit, I think it's great to try stuff out on our own to see how it works for ~. We are and hopefully will be a different sort of community.
@Awoo, I agree with you on the location of the Vote button, though. While I personally have found the location of the vote count to be good so I look at the content first, it would be nice not to have to mouse over to the other side of my screen. Though I'm starting to see the side of other users who say it prevents "mindless voting."
Thanks for the comment in my defense but I deserved the criticism for saying "what are you even doing on the site?" and my lack of sleep is no excuse for it.
Thanks for the comment in my defense but I deserved the criticism for saying "what are you even doing on the site?" and my lack of sleep is no excuse for it.
Oh I definitely agree about that. :-P But since awoo is a relatively new user (Well, so am I...), I wanted to give them some background context. I can empathize with the impulse, and I think it's...
Oh I definitely agree about that. :-P But since awoo is a relatively new user (Well, so am I...), I wanted to give them some background context. I can empathize with the impulse, and I think it's great that you saw what you did was uncool and apologized.
Heh, fair enough. I actually do believe in the "don't be an asshole" ideal, so if I catch myself edging closer to being that, or if other users call me out for sliding that direction, I do...
Heh, fair enough. I actually do believe in the "don't be an asshole" ideal, so if I catch myself edging closer to being that, or if other users call me out for sliding that direction, I do genuinely appreciate it and it's only fair I own up to my actions and apologize. :P
And speaking of lack of sleep. The fact that I did say something mean is my cue to hit the sack. So... g'night! ;)
Yeah, I realized I got too personal by adding that "so what are you even doing here?" before you responded and I apologize for that. But you still clearly don't really understand what ~ is about...
EDIT: I see you have edited the combative part out of your comment, but not soon enough I'm afraid.
Yeah, I realized I got too personal by adding that "so what are you even doing here?" before you responded and I apologize for that. But you still clearly don't really understand what ~ is about IMO.
So again... please read the blog and goals (which you still haven't acknowledged doing)... before you continue on talking about what you think ~ should or shouldn't be. @deimos was very clear about what he wants ~ to be in those documents and nowhere in them is there anything about catering to lowest-common denominator memes or porn. In fact those are pretty much the antithesis of the stated goals.
I have already read both of those thank you. Please attack what people actually say as opposed to assuming things about a person and then telling them what you think about them personally. Telling...
I have already read both of those thank you.
Please attack what people actually say as opposed to assuming things about a person and then telling them what you think about them personally.
Telling me "you don't get it" is an assumption of what I do and do not understand about the site, the subtext of which implies "you can't read or are stupid".
Talk about a person's opinion and the things they actually say, not something you imagine that person to be simply because you disagree with the things they said.
Your ideas go directly against the core principles of the site, namely: "In-depth content (primarily text-based) is the most important - This includes linking to articles on other sites, posting...
Your ideas go directly against the core principles of the site, namely:
"In-depth content (primarily text-based) is the most important - This includes linking to articles on other sites, posting text topics on Tildes itself, and the comment discussions. In general, any changes to the site that will cause "shallower" content to gain an advantage should be considered very carefully."
Therefor what can be assumed other than you either didn't read them, didn't understand them or fundamentally disagree with the very concept of the site? That's not a personal attack, merely a logical conclusion.
It is quite a leap to assume moving votes from right to left will have any effect whatsoever on the quality of content or the voting habits of users. It is an even larger leap to start making...
It is quite a leap to assume moving votes from right to left will have any effect whatsoever on the quality of content or the voting habits of users. It is an even larger leap to start making personal remarks that someone does not belong here or should re-read all kinds of things because you disagree with them.
I'm not going to get over the combative nature of the earlier comment so I'll bow out here.
It's quite a leap to assume fundamentally changing the location of a crucial, bias inducing element of most social sites to de-emphasize it will have an effect on user behavior? I don't believe...
It's quite a leap to assume fundamentally changing the location of a crucial, bias inducing element of most social sites to de-emphasize it will have an effect on user behavior? I don't believe that is the case and the evidence is already mounting that it will, given the behavioral changes we have seen users exhibit on the site already in just a short time since the site went live. Whether it's enough to get the full desired effect and sustain it is another question entirely though.
p.s. I am going to bed and will respond when I wake up.
So don't show the bias inducing element at all then. Having votes be visible for the purpose of bias inducement (they exist for judging the quality of content) while simultaneously trying to fight...
So don't show the bias inducing element at all then.
Having votes be visible for the purpose of bias inducement (they exist for judging the quality of content) while simultaneously trying to fight bias inducement are concepts that are at odds with one another.
If you don't want the bias, don't display the votes. Then the button can be where users prefer it instead of trying to fight against the very thing the number itself exists for - judging the quality of content.
IMO there is a balance that needs to be struck. Showing vote counts causes bias but so does not showing (or fuzzing) them as well. Showing them biases people towards having preconceived notions of...
IMO there is a balance that needs to be struck. Showing vote counts causes bias but so does not showing (or fuzzing) them as well. Showing them biases people towards having preconceived notions of a post or comment's value and encourages groupthink. Not showing them undermines trust in the system itself and leads to conspiratorial thinking and second guessing of motivations behind decisions from the admins. So rather than straight up hiding vote count, de-emphasizing seems the most appropriate compromise.
I think conspiratorial thinking is something that you absolutely can't defend against. It will happen. Regardless of open source. Regardless of anything. There will be those that believe that the...
I think conspiratorial thinking is something that you absolutely can't defend against.
It will happen. Regardless of open source. Regardless of anything. There will be those that believe that the sort order or voting is being manipulated by the site owners and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it.
In my opinion this doesn't matter at all anyway. What matters is that the content is interesting and what people want to see. If the content is good. If the content is arriving BEFORE other services. People will want to be here instead of the other services. That's what counts. That's how reddit beat digg too, by having the content on their front page before digg had it on theirs.
The rest is noise. What matters is the content. The discussion is all well and good for the hardcore community, but only 10% of people will participate in commenting. The content is what matters to the 90%. Tildes should be listening to the 10% rule.
random passer-by thought: have we tried hiding it altogether? Anyhow with the activity sort as default, voting on a post doesn't have a huge impact no? Maybe we should only vote on a thread when...
random passer-by thought: have we tried hiding it altogether? Anyhow with the activity sort as default, voting on a post doesn't have a huge impact no? Maybe we should only vote on a thread when we are inside that thread?
From my reply to another similar suggestion/question elsewhere in the thread:
From my reply to another similar suggestion/question elsewhere in the thread:
IMO there is a balance that needs to be struck. Showing vote counts causes bias but so does not showing (or fuzzing) them as well. Showing them biases people towards having preconceived notions of a post or comment's value and encourages groupthink. Not showing them undermines trust in the system itself and leads to conspiratorial thinking and second guessing of motivations behind decisions from the admins. So rather than straight up hiding vote count, de-emphasizing seems the most appropriate compromise.
I find the UI a bit unintuitive with the votes on the right hand side but everything else on the left hand side, it unintentionally causes your eyes to jump from one side to the other. So, I think...
I find the UI a bit unintuitive with the votes on the right hand side but everything else on the left hand side, it unintentionally causes your eyes to jump from one side to the other. So, I think it could flow better.
I genuinely appreciate the effort put into this, but the point of the vote button being on the right side is to encourage users to actually consider the contents of the submission, perhaps by (and...
I genuinely appreciate the effort put into this, but the point of the vote button being on the right side is to encourage users to actually consider the contents of the submission, perhaps by (and this is a strange concept on social media, I know) reading the article first, before they vote. ;)
Which is the same reasoning behind the new top-level comment box being at the bottom of the comments page, rather than top... and the comment vote option being below the comments, not above/to the left.
I think the problem is that people are so used to reddit they just expect the exact same design standards here but don't necessarily stop to consider whether or not the standards on reddit are encouraging poor behavior or not... which I would argue they are.
It's going to take a bit of an adjustment period to get used to the way things work on ~ but I think people will get used to it eventually and hopefully the site's culture will be that much better for it as a result of the deliberate UI element placement decisions.
The comment box at the bottom is good. It makes sure you see what others have said and avoids making a point that has already been made by someone else. It also, hopefully, helps mitigate kneejerk...
The comment box at the bottom is good. It makes sure you see what others have said and avoids making a point that has already been made by someone else.
It also, hopefully, helps mitigate kneejerk reactions against a title/headline.
I think the problem is that people use reddit (and will use tildes) as a quality-determining service. Sorting through large amounts of content and voting on that content to provide better sorting...
I think the problem is that people use reddit (and will use tildes) as a quality-determining service. Sorting through large amounts of content and voting on that content to provide better sorting of quality for other people. This is the functional purpose of votes.
People scan scores before clicking anything at all because they are searching for what is worth clicking and what is not.
People will ALWAYS attempt to find the best content to click before they click anything. We attempt to pre sort for quality with everything because we have a limited amount of time to dedicate to anything we do, it only makes sense for us to attempt to fill our time with the highest quality content we can.
Going against this fundamentally human thing people all do is just going to result in a wonky UX that feels wrong to the user because it isn't built with what the user feels is right, but is instead built with the intention of making the user act a way outside of what feels natural to them. I'm not sure that's a good longterm design philosophy.
We have already seen what catering to the lowest common denominator and peoples base desired for low-effort, instant gratification aggregated content does; It's called reddit. The majority of...
We have already seen what catering to the lowest common denominator and peoples base desired for low-effort, instant gratification aggregated content does; It's called reddit.
The majority of people only want to look at shitty memes and porn, to leave comments that simply say "LOL" or "nice tits" but that is not what ~ is about facilitating. Read the blog post and Overall goals. If you think those aren't admirable and worth persuing then this is not the site for you.... reddit is.
Going against "fundamental human things" is exactly what ~ is trying to do, because catering to those things results in facebook, twitter, reddit, fake news, hate speech and an endless sea of noise and garbage instead of thoughtful/productive dialogue, long form content and quality contributions to communities (and society).
What do we think about not having a vote count at all? Or having it show up after we vote? Obviously if we sort by most votes, we'll be able to intuit the most popular ones, but it might be an...
What do we think about not having a vote count at all? Or having it show up after we vote? Obviously if we sort by most votes, we'll be able to intuit the most popular ones, but it might be an interesting experiment.
Yes, I think it's a good idea. There was some similar discussion here, but it might be a good idea to reactivate that thread or think a bit more about it.
Yes, I think it's a good idea. There was some similar discussion here, but it might be a good idea to reactivate that thread or think a bit more about it.
I don't think this has been said yet, but I think I'd like to see the place where you have the vote button there be replaced by a thumbnail for the post. I've always liked to have at least a small...
I don't think this has been said yet, but I think I'd like to see the place where you have the vote button there be replaced by a thumbnail for the post. I've always liked to have at least a small preview/info about where I'm going before I click through.
Image thumbnails make perfect sense for image macros, porn, pictures of kittens, etc. But these things do not belong in Tildes. Hence, no thumbnails. EDIT: Another source:...
Image thumbnails make perfect sense for image macros, porn, pictures of kittens, etc. But these things do not belong in Tildes. Hence, no thumbnails.
I genuinely don't think thumbnails only make sense for the things you mentioned. They can be used for quick glance identification of videos, twitter posts or even ~'s or NSFW and Spoiler tags....
I genuinely don't think thumbnails only make sense for the things you mentioned. They can be used for quick glance identification of videos, twitter posts or even ~'s or NSFW and Spoiler tags. Obviously they shouldn't be there for every discussion post, seeing as most of them are text-based. But I would definitely appreciate them for some.
I would argue that Twitter posts belong to the very same zero-effort content category as pictures of kittens. However... I think external links should be easily identifiable from discussion...
I would argue that Twitter posts belong to the very same zero-effort content category as pictures of kittens.
However...
I think external links should be easily identifiable from discussion threads. Currently, it would seem that a favicon (or an empty square) is displayed on external links, so that's already covered.
I would personally go even a step further and replace the colorful favicons with a text-only "icon", such as [image],[video],[article],[discussion]. Not sure how I'd go about implementing such a thing in practise though...
Mmm I guess you are right in that it would encourage people to read into the posts rather than just mindlessly scrolling down. I don't know how I feel about image posts without a way to quickly...
Mmm I guess you are right in that it would encourage people to read into the posts rather than just mindlessly scrolling down.
I don't know how I feel about image posts without a way to quickly see the image and having to open it in a separate tab. Take the "Tildes UI mockup" post for example. Unless you have a browser extension like Imagus it will take you twice the amount of clicks to even understand what the post is about since the picture is not shown even in the post itself.
This is fair, I did think about this while typing up the comment. What I will say is that I know the website thumbnails for the sites that I personally like to avoid, so it would be convenient to...
This is fair, I did think about this while typing up the comment. What I will say is that I know the website thumbnails for the sites that I personally like to avoid, so it would be convenient to have them prominently portrayed. In the end though you can just look at the site url next to the link.
I wanted to add my perspective as someone who doesn't use Reddit much. Votes on the right feels fine to me; votes barely register to me on ~, and often this means I read the topic before I...
I wanted to add my perspective as someone who doesn't use Reddit much.
Votes on the right feels fine to me; votes barely register to me on ~, and often this means I read the topic before I remember I can vote for it. (I think this is positive.)
You can already sort topics to find the ones with the most votes, if I'm not mistaken. Users who value them as a tool to pick content to read should be able to set that to their default sort eventually.
To be honest, placing the vote count to the far right I guess is ok on mobile since it lets you manipulate voting more easily but on desktop version, I almost always ignore it because I miss it....
To be honest, placing the vote count to the far right I guess is ok on mobile since it lets you manipulate voting more easily but on desktop version, I almost always ignore it because I miss it.
If there are more pepople like me, then the issue is that mobile makes people engage more with voting but desktop people will ignore it.
edit: by "version", I meant the ways Tildes can be viewed. I'm aware the UI is unique to any platform.
I thought I saw a ghost for a moment.
Personally I thought it looks too much like Reddit.
I hope that doesn't offend you because the Reddit design is OK, but I'm starting to prefer how things are laid out over here.
Not at all, as a reddit user for 12 years I did my best not to be influenced by it but perhaps still was
My main gripe with Tildes compared to reddit right now is that the vote count and button is on the right. This is miles and miles away from where my eyes initially start. We read from left to right, things being on the left is just comfortable.
That is exactly the reason for the location, to force you to judge the content on its own merits and not the votes first. Same with the vote button/amount being below the comment itself instead of the first thing you see, like on reddit.
Agreed. I'd much prefer that we read the content before making a value judgement based on an arbitrary number.
I know. I understood that the first time it was mentioned above.
I'm saying that I fundamentally disagree with trying to make a user use something in a way that their gut instinct says "this feels wrong".
Users will feel like it provides a bad experience and that adds one more reason to go use somewhere else where things feel right.
Feel is incredibly important to a user. They don't want to feel like they're at odds with the very way the site is designed, especially not on every single post they visit on the site. It'll be a source of a consistent negative feeling that they will receive on every single post they interact with.
I don't even think it has the intended effect anyway. If this were something that actually affected user behaviour in a positive way then every subreddit would be using css that puts the vote box on the right in their subs. Do you know any that do?
Seems like disabling votes and other css things that subreddits tested but then reverted or never continued because it never demonstrated any meaningful change in user behaviour while only annoying people.
While I understand your point, don't you think that "feels good/bad" sensation might be caused by habit though?
You mention some subreddits tried this kind of thing and it didn't work, but maybe it was because the rest of the site was different and thus they were presented with conflicting designs? (I'm just guessing)
You can look at Facebook, for example. Their "votes" are at the bottom of posts and that doesn't seem to be a problem. I think this has more to do with habit, and new habits can be developed (you usually need about three weeks to do that IIRC).
Also, it might be worth considering it seems there's plenty of users here who aren't unhappy with the current vote count placement, so it is definitely not something inherent, I believe.
This is my thought exactly. Yes, people are used to having the votes on the left because it's easier -- but that doesn't mean it aligns with tildes' broader design goals.
That said, I'm sure Tildes will figure out a more coherent design language in time. What we have now is pretty good for an alpha. I don't think there's much point in worrying about smaller design flaws when we're still missing some Big Functionality.
Of course! It could very well be.
I just don't think it is. And having run many attempts at changing reddit layouts in the many communities I've been mod for in the past, we never once saw anything that meaningfully changed user behaviour.
Human beings want to behave in a certain way. The only things that change the ways they want to behave are:
Users will literally go out of their way to fight against site's design that tries to fight their behaviour via UI alone, and it won't work. It is the online equivalent of hostile architecture, the only way to make it work is to also make it so hostile that it is also unpleasant for users that you don't need it for. At that point it just becomes a net-negative people hate because it does more harm than good. Not that this one is at that point right now, but I just think it's not hostile enough to have any effect on user behaviour but is a noticeable minor irritant.
But isn't that the problem? That you are focusing your comparison on a website where people are already used to a specific layout? And any attempts to change the layout of specific subs doesn't expand to the rest of subs causing inconsistency and thus "bad feelings"? What do you think about the Facebook argument I gave before?
[Too many questions, I know, sorry.]
I don't have any designing experience, so I trust your opinion on that more than mine. But the rest of your comment seems to me to be a bit too rigid (that humans want to behave in a certain way), I don't understand why you have such a belief. Aren't humans one of the most adaptable animals? I don't know, I think it's a very strong assertion...
I'm just basing it on personal experience trying to make reddit's userbase behave better via css changes and failing in numerous subs. The facebook argument is a fine one. I would be happier with small vote counts below the posts. It is on the left for them, just smaller and beneath.
This would feel better and still stop the other behaviours people are swearing that this fixes. So would be a compromise. I still don't think it will actually change any behaviour though.
An alternative way to look at it - Why show vote number AT ALL if people think vote number is a significant issue before people have read a submission? Why not make vote number not visible until after a user votes?
The vote number is visible for the purpose of pre-sorting and judging content prior to viewing it. Working around it by putting it on the right ignores the fact that having the number be visible exists for the very thing that this right-design is intending to be against.
If people are against seeing the vote number before judging the content, then don't show the vote number at all until people have actually judged the content, and put the vote button in the more sensible position that feels better for the user.
Having it be visible for the purpose of content pre-judgement while simultaneously trying to fight content pre-judgement are concepts that are entirely at odds with one another.
Fair enough. I just wanted to poit out that changing the layout in just one sub, even if we accept this would conduct to a change in user behavior, is probably not enough to enact that change if the user has the standard layout in all other subreddits. So maybe your experiments didn't fail because of human nature, but because of the rest of the reddit environment (layout). I guess you can agree that's a possibility as well.
This is a perfectly reasonable stance and I'm sure the dev would consider it since it appeases both sides.
Well, you need to try to be able to know that. And you need to try in the specific environment (tildes, not somewhere else). Unless there is sim scientific studies about this, and I am sure @Deimos would be happy to read those and act accordingly. So let him know if you have some references.
Sure, that is a very good idea, imo. It has been discussed a bit in this thread, take a look for a bit of background discussion. It's not entirely the same, I don't think the idea of showing votes only after voting was discussed and I think it's an interesting one. You should suggest it if you think it makes sense.
On a side note, I was reading your conversation above, and I agree @cfabbro wasn't as polite as they usually are, so I can definitely understand you got upset. I also think that you were a bit too assertive in your opinion with only anecdotal experience, tbh, which I guess what the trigger. Let's just not get carried away.
Btw, someone just posted this, in case you want to add your opinion as well.
Thanks for the link. Commented there also.
;) no problem
Well then you fundamentally disagree with the core principles of ~
Catering to users "feelings" and base desires is not what this site is about. Catering to those things is precisely what has caused all the issues the other platforms suffer from and further perpetuate - appeals to emotion drowning out thoughtful/rational discourse, hate/fear/anger bait being used to distort reality and create social discord, people thinking their beliefs/gut feelings/opinions matter more than facts, etc. etc. etc.
Just take a few minutes to read the blog and goals already before you respond again, please! :P
I think you're being pretty combative with "So what are you even doing here?".
I'm here because I was invited, directly by Deimorz, because of a comment I wrote on /r/redesign about reddit alienating text based communities.
I'm entitled to believe in high quality discussion while also simultaneously holding the opinion that part of the UI is not a net-positive for the site.
What Tildes does not need is people saying "What are you even doing here?" when they encounter people that hold different opinions to them.
EDIT: I see you have edited the combative part out of your comment, but not soon enough I'm afraid.
Come on, guys. This is a great site, and I'm pretty sure that the volunteer admins are doing a ton of work on little sleep, so it might be nice to cut them a little slack. They're probably better people than me, but if I was working on promoting something and most of what I heard was constructive criticism, I'd probably get a little irritated occasionally, too. Not trying to put words in their mouths, just thinking about how I would feel if I heard my infant project's goals were only "annoying" people. @cfabbro has been with ~ since the beginning, and from what I've seen, they are kind and helpful. And probably thought better of the aforementioned comment, but didn't make the edit in time for you to not see it.
Anyway, even if similar UI changes have been tried at reddit, I think it's great to try stuff out on our own to see how it works for ~. We are and hopefully will be a different sort of community.
@Awoo, I agree with you on the location of the Vote button, though. While I personally have found the location of the vote count to be good so I look at the content first, it would be nice not to have to mouse over to the other side of my screen. Though I'm starting to see the side of other users who say it prevents "mindless voting."
Thanks for the comment in my defense but I deserved the criticism for saying "what are you even doing on the site?" and my lack of sleep is no excuse for it.
Oh I definitely agree about that. :-P But since awoo is a relatively new user (Well, so am I...), I wanted to give them some background context. I can empathize with the impulse, and I think it's great that you saw what you did was uncool and apologized.
Heh, fair enough. I actually do believe in the "don't be an asshole" ideal, so if I catch myself edging closer to being that, or if other users call me out for sliding that direction, I do genuinely appreciate it and it's only fair I own up to my actions and apologize. :P
And speaking of lack of sleep. The fact that I did say something mean is my cue to hit the sack. So... g'night! ;)
Yeah, I realized I got too personal by adding that "so what are you even doing here?" before you responded and I apologize for that. But you still clearly don't really understand what ~ is about IMO.
So again... please read the blog and goals (which you still haven't acknowledged doing)... before you continue on talking about what you think ~ should or shouldn't be. @deimos was very clear about what he wants ~ to be in those documents and nowhere in them is there anything about catering to lowest-common denominator memes or porn. In fact those are pretty much the antithesis of the stated goals.
I have already read both of those thank you.
Please attack what people actually say as opposed to assuming things about a person and then telling them what you think about them personally.
Telling me "you don't get it" is an assumption of what I do and do not understand about the site, the subtext of which implies "you can't read or are stupid".
Talk about a person's opinion and the things they actually say, not something you imagine that person to be simply because you disagree with the things they said.
Attack ideas, not people.
Your ideas go directly against the core principles of the site, namely:
"In-depth content (primarily text-based) is the most important - This includes linking to articles on other sites, posting text topics on Tildes itself, and the comment discussions. In general, any changes to the site that will cause "shallower" content to gain an advantage should be considered very carefully."
Therefor what can be assumed other than you either didn't read them, didn't understand them or fundamentally disagree with the very concept of the site? That's not a personal attack, merely a logical conclusion.
It is quite a leap to assume moving votes from right to left will have any effect whatsoever on the quality of content or the voting habits of users. It is an even larger leap to start making personal remarks that someone does not belong here or should re-read all kinds of things because you disagree with them.
I'm not going to get over the combative nature of the earlier comment so I'll bow out here.
It's quite a leap to assume fundamentally changing the location of a crucial, bias inducing element of most social sites to de-emphasize it will have an effect on user behavior? I don't believe that is the case and the evidence is already mounting that it will, given the behavioral changes we have seen users exhibit on the site already in just a short time since the site went live. Whether it's enough to get the full desired effect and sustain it is another question entirely though.
p.s. I am going to bed and will respond when I wake up.
So don't show the bias inducing element at all then.
Having votes be visible for the purpose of bias inducement (they exist for judging the quality of content) while simultaneously trying to fight bias inducement are concepts that are at odds with one another.
If you don't want the bias, don't display the votes. Then the button can be where users prefer it instead of trying to fight against the very thing the number itself exists for - judging the quality of content.
IMO there is a balance that needs to be struck. Showing vote counts causes bias but so does not showing (or fuzzing) them as well. Showing them biases people towards having preconceived notions of a post or comment's value and encourages groupthink. Not showing them undermines trust in the system itself and leads to conspiratorial thinking and second guessing of motivations behind decisions from the admins. So rather than straight up hiding vote count, de-emphasizing seems the most appropriate compromise.
I think conspiratorial thinking is something that you absolutely can't defend against.
It will happen. Regardless of open source. Regardless of anything. There will be those that believe that the sort order or voting is being manipulated by the site owners and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it.
In my opinion this doesn't matter at all anyway. What matters is that the content is interesting and what people want to see. If the content is good. If the content is arriving BEFORE other services. People will want to be here instead of the other services. That's what counts. That's how reddit beat digg too, by having the content on their front page before digg had it on theirs.
The rest is noise. What matters is the content. The discussion is all well and good for the hardcore community, but only 10% of people will participate in commenting. The content is what matters to the 90%. Tildes should be listening to the 10% rule.
random passer-by thought: have we tried hiding it altogether? Anyhow with the activity sort as default, voting on a post doesn't have a huge impact no? Maybe we should only vote on a thread when we are inside that thread?
From my reply to another similar suggestion/question elsewhere in the thread:
It NEEDS to be on the right. Otherwise people would be brainlessly voting on stuff like on Reddit. On the right is PERFECT.
I like the current ui
Me too. It works particularly well on mobile, as far as I'm concerned. It's clean and simple.
I find the UI a bit unintuitive with the votes on the right hand side but everything else on the left hand side, it unintentionally causes your eyes to jump from one side to the other. So, I think it could flow better.
This is a quick mock up I put together
I genuinely appreciate the effort put into this, but the point of the vote button being on the right side is to encourage users to actually consider the contents of the submission, perhaps by (and this is a strange concept on social media, I know) reading the article first, before they vote. ;)
Which is the same reasoning behind the new top-level comment box being at the bottom of the comments page, rather than top... and the comment vote option being below the comments, not above/to the left.
I think the problem is that people are so used to reddit they just expect the exact same design standards here but don't necessarily stop to consider whether or not the standards on reddit are encouraging poor behavior or not... which I would argue they are.
It's going to take a bit of an adjustment period to get used to the way things work on ~ but I think people will get used to it eventually and hopefully the site's culture will be that much better for it as a result of the deliberate UI element placement decisions.
The comment box at the bottom is good. It makes sure you see what others have said and avoids making a point that has already been made by someone else.
It also, hopefully, helps mitigate kneejerk reactions against a title/headline.
I think the problem is that people use reddit (and will use tildes) as a quality-determining service. Sorting through large amounts of content and voting on that content to provide better sorting of quality for other people. This is the functional purpose of votes.
People scan scores before clicking anything at all because they are searching for what is worth clicking and what is not.
People will ALWAYS attempt to find the best content to click before they click anything. We attempt to pre sort for quality with everything because we have a limited amount of time to dedicate to anything we do, it only makes sense for us to attempt to fill our time with the highest quality content we can.
Going against this fundamentally human thing people all do is just going to result in a wonky UX that feels wrong to the user because it isn't built with what the user feels is right, but is instead built with the intention of making the user act a way outside of what feels natural to them. I'm not sure that's a good longterm design philosophy.
We have already seen what catering to the lowest common denominator and peoples base desired for low-effort, instant gratification aggregated content does; It's called reddit.
The majority of people only want to look at shitty memes and porn, to leave comments that simply say "LOL" or "nice tits" but that is not what ~ is about facilitating. Read the blog post and Overall goals. If you think those aren't admirable and worth persuing then this is not the site for you.... reddit is.
Going against "fundamental human things" is exactly what ~ is trying to do, because catering to those things results in facebook, twitter, reddit, fake news, hate speech and an endless sea of noise and garbage instead of thoughtful/productive dialogue, long form content and quality contributions to communities (and society).
What do we think about not having a vote count at all? Or having it show up after we vote? Obviously if we sort by most votes, we'll be able to intuit the most popular ones, but it might be an interesting experiment.
Yes, I think it's a good idea. There was some similar discussion here, but it might be a good idea to reactivate that thread or think a bit more about it.
Thanks. I definitely still want voting, just maybe the inability to see the count.
Yes, that's what I like about this idea. This should be suggested in that thread or in a new one.
Ok, I posted it here. If deimos bans me for spamming, you're who I'm throwing under the bus! ;-) Kidding, of course! Thanks for the suggestion.
I don't think this has been said yet, but I think I'd like to see the place where you have the vote button there be replaced by a thumbnail for the post. I've always liked to have at least a small preview/info about where I'm going before I click through.
Image thumbnails make perfect sense for image macros, porn, pictures of kittens, etc. But these things do not belong in Tildes. Hence, no thumbnails.
EDIT: Another source: https://tildes.net/~tildes/10t/ui_suggestions#comment-70p
I genuinely don't think thumbnails only make sense for the things you mentioned. They can be used for quick glance identification of videos, twitter posts or even ~'s or NSFW and Spoiler tags. Obviously they shouldn't be there for every discussion post, seeing as most of them are text-based. But I would definitely appreciate them for some.
I would argue that Twitter posts belong to the very same zero-effort content category as pictures of kittens.
However...
I think external links should be easily identifiable from discussion threads. Currently, it would seem that a favicon (or an empty square) is displayed on external links, so that's already covered.
I would personally go even a step further and replace the colorful favicons with a text-only "icon", such as [image],[video],[article],[discussion]. Not sure how I'd go about implementing such a thing in practise though...
Mmm I guess you are right in that it would encourage people to read into the posts rather than just mindlessly scrolling down.
I don't know how I feel about image posts without a way to quickly see the image and having to open it in a separate tab. Take the "Tildes UI mockup" post for example. Unless you have a browser extension like Imagus it will take you twice the amount of clicks to even understand what the post is about since the picture is not shown even in the post itself.
This is fair, I did think about this while typing up the comment. What I will say is that I know the website thumbnails for the sites that I personally like to avoid, so it would be convenient to have them prominently portrayed. In the end though you can just look at the site url next to the link.
I'm actually OKAY with it looking similar to Reddit. I enjoyed Reddit's original design from the get-go.
I wanted to add my perspective as someone who doesn't use Reddit much.
Votes on the right feels fine to me; votes barely register to me on ~, and often this means I read the topic before I remember I can vote for it. (I think this is positive.)
You can already sort topics to find the ones with the most votes, if I'm not mistaken. Users who value them as a tool to pick content to read should be able to set that to their default sort eventually.
The current UI is good. Let's not fix what isn't broken.
Is the only change here moving the vote count to the left or am I missing something else?
To be honest, placing the vote count to the far right I guess is ok on mobile since it lets you manipulate voting more easily but on desktop version, I almost always ignore it because I miss it.
If there are more pepople like me, then the issue is that mobile makes people engage more with voting but desktop people will ignore it.
edit: by "version", I meant the ways Tildes can be viewed. I'm aware the UI is unique to any platform.