Dude, you know what people need‽ ("People" defined as weekenders/soccer moms/cubicle dwelling sales guys that should be driving hatchbacks or minivans.) A $100,000, FIVE-TON-fully-loaded, pickup...
Dude, you know what people need‽ ("People" defined as weekenders/soccer moms/cubicle dwelling sales guys that should be driving hatchbacks or minivans.)
A $100,000, FIVE-TON-fully-loaded, pickup that accelerates faster than the driver can handle and likely will not have to pass any crash testing or actually have it's claimed range independently verified by the EPA. All the weight and regulation Dodge-ing of a heavy duty pickup with none of the actual capabilities. Awesome, just awesome.
Yeah, car manufacturers prioritizing non-ultility trucks is absolutely infuriating! Why not start on vans for all the commercial deliveries that require slow cruising the neighborhoods since the...
Yeah, car manufacturers prioritizing non-ultility trucks is absolutely infuriating! Why not start on vans for all the commercial deliveries that require slow cruising the neighborhoods since the expansion of Amazon. Or like you call out, station wagons or sedans with lower weights to allow for smaller battery arrangements. No, that would be too logical and anti-capitalist. Let's turn the vehicle that leads in driver DUIs and truck nuts in an electrified battering ram. Fuck this version of the future.
EDIT: I just did more digging. A freaking third row?!?! They are literally building this for suburban soccer moms. FML. Where is this going to fit? We have set parking space sizes. We have set roadway sizing. When is this insane year over year bloat going to stop?
Yeah, but fighting "consumer freedom" is going to be incredibly hard in the US. That said, I am fully with you. Have you found any actionable ways to support policy or regulatory reform?
Yeah, but fighting "consumer freedom" is going to be incredibly hard in the US. That said, I am fully with you. Have you found any actionable ways to support policy or regulatory reform?
In a world where people actually stick to their claimed political views, removing the tax loopholes is making it "free market", the reality is of course it'll get turned into a left vs right...
In a world where people actually stick to their claimed political views, removing the tax loopholes is making it "free market", the reality is of course it'll get turned into a left vs right debate somehow.
I have not found any actionable way to get it to change. I am one of those annoying people that has actually, and regularly, informed my elected officials of my opinions with reasons/citations to back it up. So they are aware of this particular voter's opinion or are good at ignoring it. Being in Texas means even with left leaning politicians representing me, little will be done or even attempted.
That's a great start. I joined our local planning commission to make driving more difficult and pedestrian/biking better. I know that sounds terrible, but we're a small town with consistently good...
I am one of those annoying people that has actually, and regularly, informed my elected officials of my opinions with reasons/citations to back it up.
That's a great start. I joined our local planning commission to make driving more difficult and pedestrian/biking better. I know that sounds terrible, but we're a small town with consistently good weather that makes pedestrian/bike infrastructure is a very viable form of commuting for 80+% of the folks in the community. And while that's a great start, I'm pretty lost on how to support legislation at the state level. I have hope though as our state congressman just proposed the ebike tax credit so it seems he would likely be an ally on this front. I may just shoot him an email!
The third row is not in the Dodge, it's in the Kia EV9. Loads of vehicles have a third row, and the EV9 is just slightly larger than the Kia Telluride, which is not particularly huge. This isn't a...
The third row is not in the Dodge, it's in the Kia EV9. Loads of vehicles have a third row, and the EV9 is just slightly larger than the Kia Telluride, which is not particularly huge. This isn't a Canyonero sort of situation; the one that you seem to be upset about is actually the one that's more reasonably sized of the vehicles mentioned?
The Dodge is admittedly big, and probably shouldn't be purchased, but the fact that 97% of people who own pickup trucks do not have any need for a pickup truck is actually an entirely different discussion.
Dodge is marketing a third row as well. I hear you, but adding a third row to a vehicle with a truck bed feels new. I hear you, and this just feels like fuel to the fire.
Dodge is marketing a third row as well. I hear you, but adding a third row to a vehicle with a truck bed feels new.
The Dodge is admittedly big, and probably shouldn't be purchased, but the fact that 97% of people who own pickup trucks do not have any need for a pickup truck is actually an entirely different discussion.
I hear you, and this just feels like fuel to the fire.
Amazon is pursuing electric vans. Amazon has an exclusivity deal for Rivian to produce electric delivery vans (EDVs) for Amazon through 2026. I've seen one of these EDVs already doing routes in...
Why not start on vans for all the commercial deliveries that require slow cruising the neighborhoods since the expansion of Amazon.
Amazon is pursuing electric vans. Amazon has an exclusivity deal for Rivian to produce electric delivery vans (EDVs) for Amazon through 2026. I've seen one of these EDVs already doing routes in New Hampshire, and they've been spotted all over the US.
That said, Rivian is also making electric, luxury pickups and SUVs for consumers as well. Granted, Rivian's offerings for consumers, while massive, are not exorbitantly large (spatially) within the distribution of cars sold in the US (though, they are definitely larger compared to most current BEV offerings):
Dimension
Tesla Model 3 (dual-motor 54kWh battery)
Rivian R1T (quad-motor 135kWh battery)
Rivian R1S (quad-motor 135kWh battery)
Ford F-150 (2023 XL 4dr SuperCrew 4WD)
Wheelbase
113.2 in (2,875 mm)
135.9 in (3,452 mm)
121.1 in (3,076 mm)
145.4 in (3,693.16 mm)
Length
184.8 in (4,694 mm)
217.1 in (5,514 mm)
200.8 in (5,100 mm)
231.7 in (5,885 mm)
Width
72.8 in (1,849 mm)
81.8 in (2,078 mm)
79.3 in (2,014 mm)
95.7 in (2,431 mm)
Height
56.8 in (1,443 mm)
75.7 in (1,923 mm)
71.5 in (1,816 mm)
77.1 in (1,960.88 mm)
Curb weight
3,552 lb (1,611 kg)
6,949 lb (3,152 kg)
7,068 lb (3,206 kg)
4,705 lb (2,134 kg)
I tried to pick the most default/popular configuration for each model for comparison's sake.
Well I love to hear that! Hopefully they can get production up to speed quicker. The Ford F-150 (2023 XL 4dr SuperCrew 4WD) is a pretty massive truck already. Here is a comparison between an F-150...
Amazon is pursuing electric vans. Amazon has an exclusivity deal for Rivian to produce electric delivery vans (EDVs) for Amazon through 2026. I've seen one of these EDVs already doing routes in New Hampshire, and they've been spotted all over the US.
Well I love to hear that! Hopefully they can get production up to speed quicker.
Granted, Rivian's offerings for consumers, while massive, are not exorbitantly large (spatially) within the distribution of cars sold in the US (though, they are definitely larger compared to most current BEV offerings):
The Ford F-150 (2023 XL 4dr SuperCrew 4WD) is a pretty massive truck already. Here is a comparison between an F-150 and a station wagon. Granted these cars aren't from 2023 so they aren't even showing the full bloat. I think this is a case of sliding baselines. Those numbers look reasonable against a massive modern truck but lets compare them to reasonable size cars for folks that don't need a truck for work or even recreation (a very small percentage of truck owners).
Generally, "people" as you defined them don't need pickup trucks at all, but "people" already buy shitty, huge, gas guzzling death traps. Might as well have them be more environmentally...
Generally, "people" as you defined them don't need pickup trucks at all, but "people" already buy shitty, huge, gas guzzling death traps. Might as well have them be more environmentally responsible. Additionally, for people who do actually need a pickup truck, having an electric one with a decent range is probably a good idea.
Yeah, but this might swing folks who usually sit in the Rav4 class into a Dodge Ram. They are looking to expand their market and that is scary to me. It's a clear foot longer than previous Ram...
Yeah, but this might swing folks who usually sit in the Rav4 class into a Dodge Ram. They are looking to expand their market and that is scary to me. It's a clear foot longer than previous Ram models to accommodate the 3rd row. My worry is that folks who are currently being conscious about their purchasing decisions and might opt for something more eco-friendly might see this as an opportunity to indulge.
See last line about being an HD pickup in everything but capability. People that need a pickup that costs and weighs this much buy the pickups that can actually do the things that necessitate...
See last line about being an HD pickup in everything but capability. People that need a pickup that costs and weighs this much buy the pickups that can actually do the things that necessitate such. No one that needs a pickup meeting HD specs will buy this, no one that buys this needs a pickup with HD specs.
It simply shouldn't exist and the only reason it does is the loopholes mentioned elsewhere.
Why not both? The pickups can (and will) be made electric, but they can also be brought to parity by eliminating the loopholes and tax incentives so they aren't as attractive to manufacturers or...
Why not both? The pickups can (and will) be made electric, but they can also be brought to parity by eliminating the loopholes and tax incentives so they aren't as attractive to manufacturers or buyers.
It's hard to describe this truck as environmentally responsible when it's aerodynamic as a parachute, heavy, and full of enough batteries that it probably could have gone into more compact EVs...
It's hard to describe this truck as environmentally responsible when it's aerodynamic as a parachute, heavy, and full of enough batteries that it probably could have gone into more compact EVs that would have had a much higher range than this truck does when added together. Not to mention that if you actually need to use it as a truck that range is going to go down.
It would be much better to prohibit making vehicles like this (regardless of fuel source) but that would be difficult in the US even if our government wasn't broken.
I think that you, and others, are missing the point. You're comparing this to something like a Nissan Leaf, and saying that the Nissan Leaf or something similar is better. Yes, obviously it is...
I think that you, and others, are missing the point. You're comparing this to something like a Nissan Leaf, and saying that the Nissan Leaf or something similar is better. Yes, obviously it is better, more ethical, sustainable, affordable, better mileage, less stupid. But the point is to try to tap into the people who are overly attached to pickup trucks and start to, in some way, appeal to them and get them into electric vehicles. Because if we don't start doing that, they're never going to switch and things are never going to get better.
So yeah, obviously it would be better if we all just took the bus and high speed rail, and we had last mile electric vehicles that were small and safe. But that is very likely never going to happen in North America. People want to buy huge stupid penismobiles because they like status symbols and being high up and the feeling that they are secure and the idea that they might be a cowboy. So we might as well start making those huge stupid status symbols as environmentally conscious as we can.
It would be great if we could close loopholes that allow for big vehicles, or make people buy things that are appropriate for the use case that they have, or require better licensing, but that's not on the table right now. This is on the table, and it's a step in the right direction. It's not a leap in the right direction, but it's at least trying to move the bar from "everyone is constantly emitting gas fumes into the atmosphere".
The demand isn't just an organic property though, it's being manufactured by marketing. They manufactured demand for this sort of thing specifically because these big heavy trucks can skirt...
But the point is to try to tap into the people who are overly attached to pickup trucks and start to, in some way, appeal to them and get them into electric vehicles.
The demand isn't just an organic property though, it's being manufactured by marketing. They manufactured demand for this sort of thing specifically because these big heavy trucks can skirt emissions regulations and qualify for tax cuts so they're effectively subsidized by the government. So they spent years and tons of money to create a cohort of people interested in trucks through adverts.
We'll never get better if we don't stop that cycle. It needs to be unprofitable to make these behemoth trucks and the demand will begin to evaporate rather quickly as advertizers shift to pushing hatchbacks and station-wagons instead.
Again, this is missing the point, and I'll just repeat it: Also I disagree with this: We can and will. Big electric trucks are better than big gas trucks. It's actually a relatively simple step to...
Again, this is missing the point, and I'll just repeat it:
yeah, obviously it would be better if we all just took the bus and high speed rail, and we had last mile electric vehicles that were small and safe. But that is very likely never going to happen in North America.
Also I disagree with this:
We'll never get better if we don't stop that cycle.
We can and will. Big electric trucks are better than big gas trucks. It's actually a relatively simple step to take. You can't fix corporate greed and consumerism and 40 years of cowboys driving pickup trucks being "cool" to people, but you can buy a machine that's more environmentally responsible and still be a cowboy. My dipshit southern cousins can put their dirtbikes in the back of this truck, head out, drive offroad, come back, and spend a small percentage of the amount of gas they otherwise would. And that's better. It's not the best but it's better.
We have to stop shitting on ideas that make things better just because they're not the best. Perfect is the enemy of good.
I think a lot of us hear what you're saying but just disagree about the route to get to a future with fewer trucks on the road. For me it's not just about emissions. Trucks make is less safe for...
I think a lot of us hear what you're saying but just disagree about the route to get to a future with fewer trucks on the road. For me it's not just about emissions. Trucks make is less safe for pedestrians, cyclists, and even drivers of non SUV/trucks. Also in states where there isn't extensive green energy the actual "MPG" equivalent isn't great and can have inequitable emission impacts (i.e. folks who live by power plants shoulder the much heavier burden).
So when I learn that most car companies are pushing trucks as their flagship EV, I say fuck that. I don't think it's better. It finally feels like we're at a window where the majority of folks are getting onboard with conscious purchases and car manufacturers domestically have responded with more of the bullshit marketing that NaraVara mentioned above.
I know you think we're barking up the wrong tree, but I would love to see stricter regulation around where trucks can and cannot be. I don't think it has to happen in the states that folks aren't already buying into this but I think as with a lot of regulation it can happen at the state level in large progressive states (a la the California emission laws that effectively set the standard nationally). If we torpedo a large enough percentage of their markets they will need to shift their focus and maybe just provide us with or even push us to viable, safe options.
That’s not what this is. This is recognition that these vehicles are unnecessary and unsafe on the road. And the necessities of electric drive trains, specifically super heavy batteries, makes...
We have to stop shitting on ideas that make things better just because they're not the best. Perfect is the enemy of good.
That’s not what this is. This is recognition that these vehicles are unnecessary and unsafe on the road. And the necessities of electric drive trains, specifically super heavy batteries, makes everything that makes them a menace on the road in gas guzzler form even more of a problem and we are subsidizing it.
Kill the loopholes that make it advantageous to produce gas guzzling monsters trucks and then stop subsidizing electrics with absurd curb weights. Just price this shit out of existence so if your dorky cousins want to haul their dirt bikes they can either get a trailer, an actual practical truck, or pay the actual cost in externalities of the traffic safety nightmare they insist on driving instead. There’s no reason to subsidize that lifestyle for them.
There are other considerations in environmentalism than just carbon emissions. In addition to accidents and pedestrian deaths and requiring us to pave more ground to make bigger parking lots to accommodate them, the high curb weights mean more particulate pollution from tire and brake pad friction. It means more wear and tear on the roads that has to be repaired. It means vastly unnecessary amounts of battery capacity being committed to the wasteful and conspicuous consumption of a sick culture.
Dude, you know what people need‽ ("People" defined as weekenders/soccer moms/cubicle dwelling sales guys that should be driving hatchbacks or minivans.)
A $100,000, FIVE-TON-fully-loaded, pickup that accelerates faster than the driver can handle and likely will not have to pass any crash testing or actually have it's claimed range independently verified by the EPA. All the weight and regulation Dodge-ing of a heavy duty pickup with none of the actual capabilities. Awesome, just awesome.
Yeah, car manufacturers prioritizing non-ultility trucks is absolutely infuriating! Why not start on vans for all the commercial deliveries that require slow cruising the neighborhoods since the expansion of Amazon. Or like you call out, station wagons or sedans with lower weights to allow for smaller battery arrangements. No, that would be too logical and anti-capitalist. Let's turn the vehicle that leads in driver DUIs and truck nuts in an electrified battering ram. Fuck this version of the future.
EDIT: I just did more digging. A freaking third row?!?! They are literally building this for suburban soccer moms. FML. Where is this going to fit? We have set parking space sizes. We have set roadway sizing. When is this insane year over year bloat going to stop?
When we actually get the gas guzzler and "off road vehicle" loopholes.
Yeah, but fighting "consumer freedom" is going to be incredibly hard in the US. That said, I am fully with you. Have you found any actionable ways to support policy or regulatory reform?
In a world where people actually stick to their claimed political views, removing the tax loopholes is making it "free market", the reality is of course it'll get turned into a left vs right debate somehow.
I have not found any actionable way to get it to change. I am one of those annoying people that has actually, and regularly, informed my elected officials of my opinions with reasons/citations to back it up. So they are aware of this particular voter's opinion or are good at ignoring it. Being in Texas means even with left leaning politicians representing me, little will be done or even attempted.
That's a great start. I joined our local planning commission to make driving more difficult and pedestrian/biking better. I know that sounds terrible, but we're a small town with consistently good weather that makes pedestrian/bike infrastructure is a very viable form of commuting for 80+% of the folks in the community. And while that's a great start, I'm pretty lost on how to support legislation at the state level. I have hope though as our state congressman just proposed the ebike tax credit so it seems he would likely be an ally on this front. I may just shoot him an email!
The third row is not in the Dodge, it's in the Kia EV9. Loads of vehicles have a third row, and the EV9 is just slightly larger than the Kia Telluride, which is not particularly huge. This isn't a Canyonero sort of situation; the one that you seem to be upset about is actually the one that's more reasonably sized of the vehicles mentioned?
The Dodge is admittedly big, and probably shouldn't be purchased, but the fact that 97% of people who own pickup trucks do not have any need for a pickup truck is actually an entirely different discussion.
Dodge is marketing a third row as well. I hear you, but adding a third row to a vehicle with a truck bed feels new.
I hear you, and this just feels like fuel to the fire.
Wow, I stand corrected. Having a third row in a pickup is pretty stupid.
Amazon is pursuing electric vans. Amazon has an exclusivity deal for Rivian to produce electric delivery vans (EDVs) for Amazon through 2026. I've seen one of these EDVs already doing routes in New Hampshire, and they've been spotted all over the US.
That said, Rivian is also making electric, luxury pickups and SUVs for consumers as well. Granted, Rivian's offerings for consumers, while massive, are not exorbitantly large (spatially) within the distribution of cars sold in the US (though, they are definitely larger compared to most current BEV offerings):
I tried to pick the most default/popular configuration for each model for comparison's sake.
Well I love to hear that! Hopefully they can get production up to speed quicker.
The Ford F-150 (2023 XL 4dr SuperCrew 4WD) is a pretty massive truck already. Here is a comparison between an F-150 and a station wagon. Granted these cars aren't from 2023 so they aren't even showing the full bloat. I think this is a case of sliding baselines. Those numbers look reasonable against a massive modern truck but lets compare them to reasonable size cars for folks that don't need a truck for work or even recreation (a very small percentage of truck owners).
Yep, that’s why I put the Model 3 in there (which is the most sold BEV in the world).
Generally, "people" as you defined them don't need pickup trucks at all, but "people" already buy shitty, huge, gas guzzling death traps. Might as well have them be more environmentally responsible. Additionally, for people who do actually need a pickup truck, having an electric one with a decent range is probably a good idea.
Yeah, but this might swing folks who usually sit in the Rav4 class into a Dodge Ram. They are looking to expand their market and that is scary to me. It's a clear foot longer than previous Ram models to accommodate the 3rd row. My worry is that folks who are currently being conscious about their purchasing decisions and might opt for something more eco-friendly might see this as an opportunity to indulge.
See last line about being an HD pickup in everything but capability. People that need a pickup that costs and weighs this much buy the pickups that can actually do the things that necessitate such. No one that needs a pickup meeting HD specs will buy this, no one that buys this needs a pickup with HD specs.
It simply shouldn't exist and the only reason it does is the loopholes mentioned elsewhere.
The same arguments can mostly be made about almost all pickup trucks. They might as well be electric and slightly reduce emissions.
Why not both? The pickups can (and will) be made electric, but they can also be brought to parity by eliminating the loopholes and tax incentives so they aren't as attractive to manufacturers or buyers.
It's hard to describe this truck as environmentally responsible when it's aerodynamic as a parachute, heavy, and full of enough batteries that it probably could have gone into more compact EVs that would have had a much higher range than this truck does when added together. Not to mention that if you actually need to use it as a truck that range is going to go down.
It would be much better to prohibit making vehicles like this (regardless of fuel source) but that would be difficult in the US even if our government wasn't broken.
I think that you, and others, are missing the point. You're comparing this to something like a Nissan Leaf, and saying that the Nissan Leaf or something similar is better. Yes, obviously it is better, more ethical, sustainable, affordable, better mileage, less stupid. But the point is to try to tap into the people who are overly attached to pickup trucks and start to, in some way, appeal to them and get them into electric vehicles. Because if we don't start doing that, they're never going to switch and things are never going to get better.
So yeah, obviously it would be better if we all just took the bus and high speed rail, and we had last mile electric vehicles that were small and safe. But that is very likely never going to happen in North America. People want to buy huge stupid penismobiles because they like status symbols and being high up and the feeling that they are secure and the idea that they might be a cowboy. So we might as well start making those huge stupid status symbols as environmentally conscious as we can.
It would be great if we could close loopholes that allow for big vehicles, or make people buy things that are appropriate for the use case that they have, or require better licensing, but that's not on the table right now. This is on the table, and it's a step in the right direction. It's not a leap in the right direction, but it's at least trying to move the bar from "everyone is constantly emitting gas fumes into the atmosphere".
The demand isn't just an organic property though, it's being manufactured by marketing. They manufactured demand for this sort of thing specifically because these big heavy trucks can skirt emissions regulations and qualify for tax cuts so they're effectively subsidized by the government. So they spent years and tons of money to create a cohort of people interested in trucks through adverts.
We'll never get better if we don't stop that cycle. It needs to be unprofitable to make these behemoth trucks and the demand will begin to evaporate rather quickly as advertizers shift to pushing hatchbacks and station-wagons instead.
Again, this is missing the point, and I'll just repeat it:
Also I disagree with this:
We can and will. Big electric trucks are better than big gas trucks. It's actually a relatively simple step to take. You can't fix corporate greed and consumerism and 40 years of cowboys driving pickup trucks being "cool" to people, but you can buy a machine that's more environmentally responsible and still be a cowboy. My dipshit southern cousins can put their dirtbikes in the back of this truck, head out, drive offroad, come back, and spend a small percentage of the amount of gas they otherwise would. And that's better. It's not the best but it's better.
We have to stop shitting on ideas that make things better just because they're not the best. Perfect is the enemy of good.
I think a lot of us hear what you're saying but just disagree about the route to get to a future with fewer trucks on the road. For me it's not just about emissions. Trucks make is less safe for pedestrians, cyclists, and even drivers of non SUV/trucks. Also in states where there isn't extensive green energy the actual "MPG" equivalent isn't great and can have inequitable emission impacts (i.e. folks who live by power plants shoulder the much heavier burden).
So when I learn that most car companies are pushing trucks as their flagship EV, I say fuck that. I don't think it's better. It finally feels like we're at a window where the majority of folks are getting onboard with conscious purchases and car manufacturers domestically have responded with more of the bullshit marketing that NaraVara mentioned above.
I know you think we're barking up the wrong tree, but I would love to see stricter regulation around where trucks can and cannot be. I don't think it has to happen in the states that folks aren't already buying into this but I think as with a lot of regulation it can happen at the state level in large progressive states (a la the California emission laws that effectively set the standard nationally). If we torpedo a large enough percentage of their markets they will need to shift their focus and maybe just provide us with or even push us to viable, safe options.
That’s not what this is. This is recognition that these vehicles are unnecessary and unsafe on the road. And the necessities of electric drive trains, specifically super heavy batteries, makes everything that makes them a menace on the road in gas guzzler form even more of a problem and we are subsidizing it.
Kill the loopholes that make it advantageous to produce gas guzzling monsters trucks and then stop subsidizing electrics with absurd curb weights. Just price this shit out of existence so if your dorky cousins want to haul their dirt bikes they can either get a trailer, an actual practical truck, or pay the actual cost in externalities of the traffic safety nightmare they insist on driving instead. There’s no reason to subsidize that lifestyle for them.
There are other considerations in environmentalism than just carbon emissions. In addition to accidents and pedestrian deaths and requiring us to pave more ground to make bigger parking lots to accommodate them, the high curb weights mean more particulate pollution from tire and brake pad friction. It means more wear and tear on the roads that has to be repaired. It means vastly unnecessary amounts of battery capacity being committed to the wasteful and conspicuous consumption of a sick culture.
I completely understand that point. I just wish we could do better.
Fair, but people who actually need a pickup truck aren't usually looking at anything made by Dodge.
As an avid cyclist I'm very excited to be run over by this five-ton, 654-horsepower innovation.
Lol, same
All I can say: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo