There are a lot of unknowns when it comes to Chinese EV makers. Most of them haven't been around for very long (like Tesla and Rivian), so it's hard to have faith they'll be around for another...
There are a lot of unknowns when it comes to Chinese EV makers. Most of them haven't been around for very long (like Tesla and Rivian), so it's hard to have faith they'll be around for another 5/10 years when parts/batteries need replacing. Compared with a brand like Ford, VW or Toyota and the difference is clear. Keep in mind that low/middle income people don't buy new and this becomes even more important.
Many companies (western included) are taking the opportunity to add surveillance to their EVs, as well has anti-consumer subscriptions (BMW's heated seats, anyone?), and until some of that gets legislated against I don't want any of that. I am in the minority here though, I don't have any IoT and I run my own firewall with ad/tracker blockers.
Finally (not China related) I'm still skeptical that the most environmentally friendly thing to do is manufacture millions more cars and replace our old ones. We need a paradigm shift like ebikes+public transport and affordable city accommodation. We forget that reduce is better than reuse and recycle, maybe because we don't want to change...
I think byd is older than tesla. From the article linked above "The Shenzhen-based company was founded by Wang Chuanfu, a former university professor, in the mid-1990s. After focusing on...
I think byd is older than tesla. From the article linked above "The Shenzhen-based company was founded by Wang Chuanfu, a former university professor, in the mid-1990s. After focusing on manufacturing rechargeable batteries, including for early cell phones, the company expanded into the car industry in the early 2000s."
Good to note, but i think the concerns about product support over its lifetime are still valid. As an aside, i have owned only Japanese cars from older generations, and do my own work whenever I’m...
Good to note, but i think the concerns about product support over its lifetime are still valid.
As an aside, i have owned only Japanese cars from older generations, and do my own work whenever I’m able, so I’m also in a minority here i suppose. Vehicles are a lot more than just appliances to me. I love being able to easily source parts and access resources to help diagnose and repair stuff.
I’ve been starting to think about buying a car, but you’re right with all the surveillance and subscriptions and bullshit, it’s so off putting. I think at this stage, the newest car that I can...
I’ve been starting to think about buying a car, but you’re right with all the surveillance and subscriptions and bullshit, it’s so off putting. I think at this stage, the newest car that I can trust would have to be almost 10 years old at this stage. I’m lucky that Australia hasn’t yet followed the US trend of manufacturers selling nothing but SUVs, but it’s heading there.
I just want a small city car that can park easily, maybe a sedan but probably a hatchback. And I want it to be battery (or hydrogen, but the infrastructure isn’t there yet) because the only large drives I do is a once-per-year road trip about 600km, and other than that, charging at home will be fine.
I watched this video by Not Just Bikes that had an interesting overview of the historical regulatory issues in the US that came together to particularly drive SUV manufacturing, marketing and,...
I watched this video by Not Just Bikes that had an interesting overview of the historical regulatory issues in the US that came together to particularly drive SUV manufacturing, marketing and, therefore, adoption. Their classification as "Light trucks" meant that they didn't (don't?) fall under the same emissions regs as do cars, which makes them cheaper to produce. That's not quite the case in my country, thankfully, but the marketing solutions automakers landed on to promote SUVs (which were, as the video explains, less comfortable owing to their stiffer chassis, harder suspension etc.) have successfully been used around me to make drivers want the biggest, heaviest, tallest vehicle on the road.
I drive a hatchback (2009 model, Diesel, still going strong, amazing really) and it's an excellent car - great turning circle, better fuel efficiency than my mother-in-law's 2022 Tiguan (a huge Volkswagen SUV), and scrappy enough that it hurts, but does not break, my heart when a new scratch gets added by a fellow road-user in a car park or wherever. But I do see Tiguans and other vehicles go by and think that if it came to a crash between that monster and our hatchback, we're toast. Which makes me angry, hahaha. Maybe in a few years we'll have to get a new car, but there's just two of us, we won't go any bigger than a compact saloon, at most.
Good news for Europe, though. We've been stuck making cars for multiple lifetimes. Maybe if people leave the car making industry, we can start building other things and the large companies will...
Good news for Europe, though. We've been stuck making cars for multiple lifetimes. Maybe if people leave the car making industry, we can start building other things and the large companies will make way for smaller startups.
Especially now that we need to start building our own electronics instead of importing everything from US and Asia for security reasons.
And to be honest, replacing some of the cars with public transportation (we can manufacture pretty confidently) sounds like a good idea anyway. "Cars? Oh, those are so yesterday. Keep up, China."
It's a bit odd how casual people can be about eliminating millions of jobs when it's manufacturing something they don't like. Airplanes contribute to climate change so let's shut down Airbus too...
It's a bit odd how casual people can be about eliminating millions of jobs when it's manufacturing something they don't like. Airplanes contribute to climate change so let's shut down Airbus too :-)
More seriously, I do think employment should change with the times, but finding new jobs for people in declining industries is actually a pretty tough problem. It doesn't just happen.
Happy to create millions of jobs to support a system that will grow the economy, reduce urban sprawl, reduce commuter stress, and reduce our oil dependence and help the environment. I'm in the...
Happy to create millions of jobs to support a system that will grow the economy, reduce urban sprawl, reduce commuter stress, and reduce our oil dependence and help the environment.
I'm in the automotive industry, if my job disappeared, I wouldn't mind, and if a comparable public sector job opened up due to infrastructure expansion I'd be elated. Cars suck, they make life more difficult for everyone in the long run.
I wish I had a more useful comment to make, and I'm sure you can find it if you Kagi hard enough, but I saw an interesting article or citation (forget which) that oulined that going right back to...
finding new jobs for people in declining industries is actually a pretty tough problem. It doesn't just happen.
I wish I had a more useful comment to make, and I'm sure you can find it if you Kagi hard enough, but I saw an interesting article or citation (forget which) that oulined that going right back to the automotive revolution, when a new technology comes along, we don't really find new jobs for existing people who are being displaced (or replaced); new entrants to the labour market just find different jobs, and the old ones die out through attrition.
I suppose it might not hold now with new technologies and the pace of change being higher, but I found it to be an interesting idea.
Wait, I always though that the goal (of team humanity) was to eliminate all the jobs. More seriously, helping people find other useful work to do when the old one is not needed anymore did not...
Wait, I always though that the goal (of team humanity) was to eliminate all the jobs.
More seriously, helping people find other useful work to do when the old one is not needed anymore did not happen because the population mostly kept stable (or even kept growing, if you go far enough back), offshoring to Asia was cheaper (more recently) and increasing unemployment was seen as a good way to keep the wages low.
I don't believe that increasing unemployment is anyone's goal? It seems like the sort of thing people say when they're being cynical. Or they're just being callous. "Get a job," they say, while...
I don't believe that increasing unemployment is anyone's goal? It seems like the sort of thing people say when they're being cynical. Or they're just being callous. "Get a job," they say, while not doing anything about getting anyone a job.
There are also policies that have the effect of increasing unemployment, but they're typically justified in some other way.
No, no, you’re not going far enough. I don’t want “unemployment” — I want a jobless society! Think of the Star Trek utopia where nobody is compelled to work just to survive, so everyone can choose...
No, no, you’re not going far enough. I don’t want “unemployment” — I want a jobless society!
Think of the Star Trek utopia where nobody is compelled to work just to survive, so everyone can choose to pursue whichever goals they want with all their time and energy and passion, without having to carve out 70% of their waking hours just to fund the other 30%.
To be technical about it, "unemployment" is normally defined as people who want to work but can't find a job. People who don't need or want to work (such as retirees) don't count. In a Star Trek...
To be technical about it, "unemployment" is normally defined as people who want to work but can't find a job. People who don't need or want to work (such as retirees) don't count. In a Star Trek utopia, unemployment would be zero or close to it.
Also, it's quite possible to want to work to earn more money to buy nicer things, without needing to work "just to survive." Having the bare minimum to retire on isn't enough for many people.
It should be the goal of everyone employed. It's a stimulating exercise to consider how might a society function without the violence of mandatory jobs and the constant threat of starvation and...
It should be the goal of everyone employed.
It's a stimulating exercise to consider how might a society function without the violence of mandatory jobs and the constant threat of starvation and homelessness.
Anyway, we are making too many cars. There is a shortage of passenger train vagons in EU currently. The wait times are in years. Maybe some car maker employees could help out there so that trains are an even better alternative?
This one is rather clear. European automakers gravitate towards luxury and especially so in EVs. This because Tesla set a trend that EVs should be luxurious (or at least feel that way! Build...
This one is rather clear. European automakers gravitate towards luxury and especially so in EVs. This because Tesla set a trend that EVs should be luxurious (or at least feel that way! Build quality for Tesla's is arguable), and European car makers are happy to follow suit.
Affordable EVs are not created by European manufacturers, but they are being created in spades by the Chinese brands. They're creating cars that are luxurious, but also affordable. The EU is looking for protectionist measures because China is heavily subsidizing these car brands, so the affordability is sort of a mirage and creates an environment of unbalanced competition. BYD is currently the one with the most influence and growth.
At this rate they'll simply outcompete any European EV. Tesla will through clout, BYD through price.
Bad news for European car makers.
There are a lot of unknowns when it comes to Chinese EV makers. Most of them haven't been around for very long (like Tesla and Rivian), so it's hard to have faith they'll be around for another 5/10 years when parts/batteries need replacing. Compared with a brand like Ford, VW or Toyota and the difference is clear. Keep in mind that low/middle income people don't buy new and this becomes even more important.
Many companies (western included) are taking the opportunity to add surveillance to their EVs, as well has anti-consumer subscriptions (BMW's heated seats, anyone?), and until some of that gets legislated against I don't want any of that. I am in the minority here though, I don't have any IoT and I run my own firewall with ad/tracker blockers.
Finally (not China related) I'm still skeptical that the most environmentally friendly thing to do is manufacture millions more cars and replace our old ones. We need a paradigm shift like ebikes+public transport and affordable city accommodation. We forget that reduce is better than reuse and recycle, maybe because we don't want to change...
I think byd is older than tesla. From the article linked above "The Shenzhen-based company was founded by Wang Chuanfu, a former university professor, in the mid-1990s. After focusing on manufacturing rechargeable batteries, including for early cell phones, the company expanded into the car industry in the early 2000s."
Good to note, but i think the concerns about product support over its lifetime are still valid.
As an aside, i have owned only Japanese cars from older generations, and do my own work whenever I’m able, so I’m also in a minority here i suppose. Vehicles are a lot more than just appliances to me. I love being able to easily source parts and access resources to help diagnose and repair stuff.
I’ve been starting to think about buying a car, but you’re right with all the surveillance and subscriptions and bullshit, it’s so off putting. I think at this stage, the newest car that I can trust would have to be almost 10 years old at this stage. I’m lucky that Australia hasn’t yet followed the US trend of manufacturers selling nothing but SUVs, but it’s heading there.
I just want a small city car that can park easily, maybe a sedan but probably a hatchback. And I want it to be battery (or hydrogen, but the infrastructure isn’t there yet) because the only large drives I do is a once-per-year road trip about 600km, and other than that, charging at home will be fine.
I watched this video by Not Just Bikes that had an interesting overview of the historical regulatory issues in the US that came together to particularly drive SUV manufacturing, marketing and, therefore, adoption. Their classification as "Light trucks" meant that they didn't (don't?) fall under the same emissions regs as do cars, which makes them cheaper to produce. That's not quite the case in my country, thankfully, but the marketing solutions automakers landed on to promote SUVs (which were, as the video explains, less comfortable owing to their stiffer chassis, harder suspension etc.) have successfully been used around me to make drivers want the biggest, heaviest, tallest vehicle on the road.
I drive a hatchback (2009 model, Diesel, still going strong, amazing really) and it's an excellent car - great turning circle, better fuel efficiency than my mother-in-law's 2022 Tiguan (a huge Volkswagen SUV), and scrappy enough that it hurts, but does not break, my heart when a new scratch gets added by a fellow road-user in a car park or wherever. But I do see Tiguans and other vehicles go by and think that if it came to a crash between that monster and our hatchback, we're toast. Which makes me angry, hahaha. Maybe in a few years we'll have to get a new car, but there's just two of us, we won't go any bigger than a compact saloon, at most.
Good news for Europe, though. We've been stuck making cars for multiple lifetimes. Maybe if people leave the car making industry, we can start building other things and the large companies will make way for smaller startups.
Especially now that we need to start building our own electronics instead of importing everything from US and Asia for security reasons.
And to be honest, replacing some of the cars with public transportation (we can manufacture pretty confidently) sounds like a good idea anyway. "Cars? Oh, those are so yesterday. Keep up, China."
It's a bit odd how casual people can be about eliminating millions of jobs when it's manufacturing something they don't like. Airplanes contribute to climate change so let's shut down Airbus too :-)
More seriously, I do think employment should change with the times, but finding new jobs for people in declining industries is actually a pretty tough problem. It doesn't just happen.
Happy to create millions of jobs to support a system that will grow the economy, reduce urban sprawl, reduce commuter stress, and reduce our oil dependence and help the environment.
I'm in the automotive industry, if my job disappeared, I wouldn't mind, and if a comparable public sector job opened up due to infrastructure expansion I'd be elated. Cars suck, they make life more difficult for everyone in the long run.
I wish I had a more useful comment to make, and I'm sure you can find it if you Kagi hard enough, but I saw an interesting article or citation (forget which) that oulined that going right back to the automotive revolution, when a new technology comes along, we don't really find new jobs for existing people who are being displaced (or replaced); new entrants to the labour market just find different jobs, and the old ones die out through attrition.
I suppose it might not hold now with new technologies and the pace of change being higher, but I found it to be an interesting idea.
Wait, I always though that the goal (of team humanity) was to eliminate all the jobs.
More seriously, helping people find other useful work to do when the old one is not needed anymore did not happen because the population mostly kept stable (or even kept growing, if you go far enough back), offshoring to Asia was cheaper (more recently) and increasing unemployment was seen as a good way to keep the wages low.
I don't believe that increasing unemployment is anyone's goal? It seems like the sort of thing people say when they're being cynical. Or they're just being callous. "Get a job," they say, while not doing anything about getting anyone a job.
There are also policies that have the effect of increasing unemployment, but they're typically justified in some other way.
No, no, you’re not going far enough. I don’t want “unemployment” — I want a jobless society!
Think of the Star Trek utopia where nobody is compelled to work just to survive, so everyone can choose to pursue whichever goals they want with all their time and energy and passion, without having to carve out 70% of their waking hours just to fund the other 30%.
To be technical about it, "unemployment" is normally defined as people who want to work but can't find a job. People who don't need or want to work (such as retirees) don't count. In a Star Trek utopia, unemployment would be zero or close to it.
Also, it's quite possible to want to work to earn more money to buy nicer things, without needing to work "just to survive." Having the bare minimum to retire on isn't enough for many people.
It should be the goal of everyone employed.
It's a stimulating exercise to consider how might a society function without the violence of mandatory jobs and the constant threat of starvation and homelessness.
Anyway, we are making too many cars. There is a shortage of passenger train vagons in EU currently. The wait times are in years. Maybe some car maker employees could help out there so that trains are an even better alternative?
Written on train.
Being able to retire is a fine goal, but that's different from wanting to be unemployed. See my other response.
Please elaborate on why you think so.
This one is rather clear. European automakers gravitate towards luxury and especially so in EVs. This because Tesla set a trend that EVs should be luxurious (or at least feel that way! Build quality for Tesla's is arguable), and European car makers are happy to follow suit.
Affordable EVs are not created by European manufacturers, but they are being created in spades by the Chinese brands. They're creating cars that are luxurious, but also affordable. The EU is looking for protectionist measures because China is heavily subsidizing these car brands, so the affordability is sort of a mirage and creates an environment of unbalanced competition. BYD is currently the one with the most influence and growth.
At this rate they'll simply outcompete any European EV. Tesla will through clout, BYD through price.
Because the EV market is currently dominated by US and Chinese companies, with the German ones quite far behind.
Mirror, for those hit by the paywall:
https://archive.is/c5zIf