Louder, for the people in the back! I haven't played the sequel myself, but I simply loathed the stealth and hacking segments from the first. It seemed like such an odd pacing choice and really...
Spider-Man 2 continues this trend, and boy, do I hate it. This is partially a matter of preference — I’m of the mind that stealth should either be the primary focus of a game, or an optional way to engage with an encounter. There are few things that annoy me more than an action game that grinds to a halt in order to force the player to do stealth for a bit. Intellectually, I understand why it could be a good idea — it’s nice to break up the pacing rhythm, to broaden the range of experiences a player will have in a game — but in practice? I almost always find it a drag.
Louder, for the people in the back! I haven't played the sequel myself, but I simply loathed the stealth and hacking segments from the first. It seemed like such an odd pacing choice and really put me off from the rest of the campaign. It was hard to vibe with an awesome action sequence when I knew that I'd soon be ripped out of it and placed into a generic stealth mission with mechanics from 2003.
What do you folk think? Are stealth segments in action games warranted? Are there any examples you can think of that did them well? What about an underwater stealth mission, for the masochists out there!
I really feel like the author is really complaining to complain. The second game made the stealth sections much more forgiving, less frequent, and more closer to a third person shooter stealth...
I really feel like the author is really complaining to complain. The second game made the stealth sections much more forgiving, less frequent, and more closer to a third person shooter stealth mission than whatever they were doing with the first one. The ones in the first game are definitely a chore but the player has way more autonomy in the second game.
Dare I say the MJ sections in the second game were actually pretty fun.
Completely agree with you. I haven't finished the game, but I'm something around 75-80% done with the main story. There are a total of 2 missions that you play as MJ, and neither one is the...
Completely agree with you. I haven't finished the game, but I'm something around 75-80% done with the main story.
There are a total of 2 missions that you play as MJ, and neither one is the painfully slow auto fail if spotted missions from Spidey 1. You're not nearly as agile as either Spider-Man, duh, but it's not monotonous like the first game. Would I like a whole game of the sneaking, probably not, but it was not an egregious buzz kill the way the author portrays it
I genuinely wonder if the author got to the first MJ mission, saw that he was playing her, stopped and then wrote this blog post tbh lol because there's no substance to the actual complaint. I...
I genuinely wonder if the author got to the first MJ mission, saw that he was playing her, stopped and then wrote this blog post tbh lol because there's no substance to the actual complaint. I think there were some sections that were definitely worse than any of the MJ stuff (plant splicing lol).
I don't think the author is necessarily saying these segments are a buzzkill, but that they're a missed opportunity to use MJ as a conduit to tell a deeper story.
I don't think the author is necessarily saying these segments are a buzzkill, but that they're a missed opportunity to use MJ as a conduit to tell a deeper story.
MJ’s stealth sections seem to come from a commendable goal of giving the character her own mechanical conceits, but they do little to speak to who she is as a character, and remove gameplay options without replacing them with anything compelling.
I kinda feel like you'd need to play through the game to understand why I think this commentary is still wrong though. If anything, the first game really got it wrong because they just dropped MJ...
I kinda feel like you'd need to play through the game to understand why I think this commentary is still wrong though. If anything, the first game really got it wrong because they just dropped MJ in there as a helpless damsel that lets Spider-man do all the dirty work. MJ should be a strong, capable, independent character and I think they at least did a better job in it in the second game. If anything, giving her just some biking sections and letting her ride around the city would probably diminish her character.
Yeah I think the author forgot that this is an action video game, and those segments (from what I've seen from videos) are pretty few and far between. I'm sure if instead of sneaking around and...
If anything, giving her just some biking sections and letting her ride around the city would probably diminish her character.
Yeah I think the author forgot that this is an action video game, and those segments (from what I've seen from videos) are pretty few and far between. I'm sure if instead of sneaking around and knocking out bad guys, MJ just road a bike and interviewed people in some weird quasi-journalism mini-game, we'd be reading a very similar article to this one, just with a different headline. Still, I think there's some merit to their overall point.
I wish they picked a different game or have elaborated on their point a bit more because I definitely understand where the commentary is coming from, especially if you look at the first Spider-man...
I wish they picked a different game or have elaborated on their point a bit more because I definitely understand where the commentary is coming from, especially if you look at the first Spider-man game. There was a section in the second game on a side mission that does slow down and give the player a new perspective as Hailey, I personally really loved it and felt it was touching and poignant, but I wonder how this author would feel about that section.
I feel like they actually do tell a pretty coherent story if you pay attention. MJ isn’t just some damsel in distress. She’s directly involved in all things Spider-Man but she doesn’t have any...
I feel like they actually do tell a pretty coherent story if you pay attention. MJ isn’t just some damsel in distress. She’s directly involved in all things Spider-Man but she doesn’t have any powers at all. It’s brave, ballsy, and shows her courage and care for Peter and Miles. In this outing, the best she has is a glorified stun gun. I actually think she tells a deeper story than the other female characters in the game.
Edit: To give some context, I didn’t like the MJ missions from the first game. The pacing was definitely an issue and it didn’t feel like a game of skill but moreso a game of inconsistent enemy AI.
The stealth sections in Spider-Guy don't work, and frustrate the user, because they take away all the player's toys and shoehorns them into a simplistic yet strangely difficult minigame. The idea...
Exemplary
The stealth sections in Spider-Guy don't work, and frustrate the user, because they take away all the player's toys and shoehorns them into a simplistic yet strangely difficult minigame. The idea is to build tension, but that tension feels cheapened by the fact that it isn't built on mechanics the player has already spent hours familiarizing themselves with.
Contrast this with Call of Doodie 4's famous "All Ghillied Up" mission. This is a mandatory stealth segment where you sneak through Chernobyl in an attempt to assassinate one of the main baddies. The player still has access to all their toys. The mission is still built on the same mechanics the player has been immersing themselves in throughout the rest of the campaign, and in fact uses them to enforce the stealth requirement. This mission is so well done that the first time I finished it, I immediately replayed it two more times before moving on with the rest of the game.
Metal Gear Solid V had its “Total Stealth” missions as separate, optional and absolutely cheeseable. But rarely in MG games is total stealth required and with the whole series sneaking around is...
Metal Gear Solid V had its “Total Stealth” missions as separate, optional and absolutely cheeseable. But rarely in MG games is total stealth required and with the whole series sneaking around is (part of) their hook.
I think what games tend to miss about stealth is getting spotted and having a situation getting FUBAR. As a player having to deal with alarms blazing and guards opening fire with extremely lethal proficiency is an exciting rush. There’s a cat and mouse, run fight hide aspect to Metal Gear that other games miss. Metal Gear also has a small window to prevent enemies from going full alert—if you interrupt a guard before they finish yelling “Hostile!” for example, nearby enemies will investigate the shout but not go into combat mode.
The middle ground is chastising the player for failing to be stealthy. I feel like Metal Gear rewards the player for stealth, but doesn’t break the players balls over it beyond maybe a reduced mission rank. I’ve been playing Cyberpunk and characters in game will bemoan the player for failing to be discreet and even reduce mission rewards. It’s not as brazen as dropping a game over on the player, but I don’t need the game lecturing me like my mother because I didn’t do the dishes.
I feel like I'm the only person who enjoyed the original MJ missions. Feels bad to have everybody circlejerk about how objectively awful something you enjoyed was.
I feel like I'm the only person who enjoyed the original MJ missions. Feels bad to have everybody circlejerk about how objectively awful something you enjoyed was.
This post wasn't meant to be a circlejerk, and I apologize if my posting of this article has evolved into such. I was genuinely trying to ask for people's opinions on stealth missions while...
This post wasn't meant to be a circlejerk, and I apologize if my posting of this article has evolved into such. I was genuinely trying to ask for people's opinions on stealth missions while sharing an article I found enjoyable and humorous.
Not going to lie, I'm a little disappointed that not a lot of people in this thread haven't bothered to mention the bulk of the article's point, and I feel that's my fault in how I posted it. From the article:
Stealth sections are also a poor way to engage with Mary Jane’s role in Spider-Man 2’s story. MJ is a journalist, and while that can involve being a snoop, it’s not particularly novel or engaging, especially when just about every one of Sony’s big marquee games leans on this rickety crutch. There aren’t even any compelling, unique mechanics for these sections, even though the game has bespoke minigames for hydroponic farming and bee bodyguarding. Spider-Man 2 is full of light mystery and puzzle solving elements, as well as quieter sections where the player just walks around as Miles or Peter to talk to folks. Why can’t MJ do that? Give her one of the bicycles that Peter gets to ride, and let the player see the city up close, from her perspective, to tell a story that Spider-Man can’t.
This reminds me of a famous comic arc where a homeless girl is struggling to survive in the NYC winter and dreams of Spider-Man rescuing her. But he's unable to save her, because he didn't even know she existed. It's not his fault, he's not omnipotent, but it really fucks him up. "I swung over that alley so many times, I never knew."
With the article's emphasis on MJ telling stories that Spider-Man can't, I feel that they're disappointed that instead of getting something deeper, she's relegated to simple stealth missions; not simply, "Hur-dur, stealth missions bad!" Again, it's on me for not posting this article with a clearer emphasis on why I felt the need to post in the first place.
Sorry, I wasn't saying this is just a circlejerk; I was just commenting on how it feels like every time the first game was brought up, the conversation would inevitably turn to discussing how...
Sorry, I wasn't saying this is just a circlejerk; I was just commenting on how it feels like every time the first game was brought up, the conversation would inevitably turn to discussing how awful those portions were.
Oh snap that's my bad, I misinterpreted your comment completely! I'm sorry, I can definitely understand how it must suck. I'm not a fan of these sequences myself, but it's definitely not my...
Oh snap that's my bad, I misinterpreted your comment completely! I'm sorry, I can definitely understand how it must suck. I'm not a fan of these sequences myself, but it's definitely not my intention to diminish the enjoyment others feel about them.
I didn't mind them when I replayed the first game recently. I didn't find them especially difficult or frustrating, either, and I consider myself terrible at stealth games. Until I stumbled upon...
I didn't mind them when I replayed the first game recently. I didn't find them especially difficult or frustrating, either, and I consider myself terrible at stealth games. Until I stumbled upon this thread I actually had no idea those missions were so disliked. Makes me feel like I've been living in an oddly specific bubble, ha!
Well, what did you like about them? There are probably a ton of people that like those sections just like you. They’re just not as vocal. If you enjoyed it, then Insomniac succeeded. I think the...
Well, what did you like about them? There are probably a ton of people that like those sections just like you. They’re just not as vocal. If you enjoyed it, then Insomniac succeeded.
I think the issue for most people who want to play a Spider-Man game is that they’re expecting to play as Spider-Man. So it’s mostly about expectations. There’s nothing wrong with the MJ sections, although they’re pretty basic and unremarkable stealth sequences, but they come after the sections where you get to do stealth sequences as Spider-Man. It’s a bit of a regression. It doesn’t help that the Spider-Man stealth missions are so fun, dynamic, and feel great.
Reminds me of the opposite: required head-to-head combat in games that can be played practically fully or mostly stealthily. Deus Ex: Human Revolution had that with the bosses. You could go...
Reminds me of the opposite: required head-to-head combat in games that can be played practically fully or mostly stealthily. Deus Ex: Human Revolution had that with the bosses. You could go stealth practically the whole time, but as soon as it was boss time, it was guns out buns out. And if you weren't used to playing that way, it sucked. If I'm remembering correctly, that got changed in DX: Mankind Divided. You still had to fight, but options for fighting from the shadows were provided and plentiful.
Another game that had that was Hitman Absolution. There were times you could/had to stealth, while there were other times you HAD to go guns blazing, bodies laying all over, not even a chance to hide them. As a stealth player, I hate that kinda thing. So I could see how the reverse could also be annoying for players who prefer more action. The newer, rebooted Hitman series (2016) does a much better job of giving people the option on how they want to play.
Yeah, that's even worse. I remember playing Alpha Protocol and some of the big fight sequences took me hours and hours because my character was just not built for that. I eventually quit because I...
Yeah, that's even worse. I remember playing Alpha Protocol and some of the big fight sequences took me hours and hours because my character was just not built for that. I eventually quit because I hadn't wanted a guns blazing shooter.
I agree, stealth should be optional or limited to stealth games specifically. The only thing I've hated about the latest iteration of my longtime love, Armored Core, is that the game has a forced...
I agree, stealth should be optional or limited to stealth games specifically. The only thing I've hated about the latest iteration of my longtime love, Armored Core, is that the game has a forced stealth mission.
A forced stealth mission. In a multi-ton, jet powered, explosive laden, hunk of steel several stories tall.
A forced stealth mission where getting "spotted" is an instant fail. A forced stealth mission where in order to succeed you are also required to kill enemies at a distance, non-silently, to succeed.
"Forced stealth" makes me think of the insta-fail concentration camp level from Return to Castle Wolfenstein. There's literally no other section like this in the game, and suddenly you're hit with...
"Forced stealth" makes me think of the insta-fail concentration camp level from Return to Castle Wolfenstein. There's literally no other section like this in the game, and suddenly you're hit with a section where just being seen causes an instant fail.
There are a couple of super easy paths which made me wonder why I was doing the stealth thing in the first place. Easily the worst mission of the game. Bonus points for a "secret" boss that's...
There are a couple of super easy paths which made me wonder why I was doing the stealth thing in the first place. Easily the worst mission of the game. Bonus points for a "secret" boss that's required for the extra loot.
Louder, for the people in the back! I haven't played the sequel myself, but I simply loathed the stealth and hacking segments from the first. It seemed like such an odd pacing choice and really put me off from the rest of the campaign. It was hard to vibe with an awesome action sequence when I knew that I'd soon be ripped out of it and placed into a generic stealth mission with mechanics from 2003.
What do you folk think? Are stealth segments in action games warranted? Are there any examples you can think of that did them well? What about an underwater stealth mission, for the masochists out there!
I really feel like the author is really complaining to complain. The second game made the stealth sections much more forgiving, less frequent, and more closer to a third person shooter stealth mission than whatever they were doing with the first one. The ones in the first game are definitely a chore but the player has way more autonomy in the second game.
Dare I say the MJ sections in the second game were actually pretty fun.
Completely agree with you. I haven't finished the game, but I'm something around 75-80% done with the main story.
There are a total of 2 missions that you play as MJ, and neither one is the painfully slow auto fail if spotted missions from Spidey 1. You're not nearly as agile as either Spider-Man, duh, but it's not monotonous like the first game. Would I like a whole game of the sneaking, probably not, but it was not an egregious buzz kill the way the author portrays it
I genuinely wonder if the author got to the first MJ mission, saw that he was playing her, stopped and then wrote this blog post tbh lol because there's no substance to the actual complaint. I think there were some sections that were definitely worse than any of the MJ stuff (plant splicing lol).
I don't think the author is necessarily saying these segments are a buzzkill, but that they're a missed opportunity to use MJ as a conduit to tell a deeper story.
I kinda feel like you'd need to play through the game to understand why I think this commentary is still wrong though. If anything, the first game really got it wrong because they just dropped MJ in there as a helpless damsel that lets Spider-man do all the dirty work. MJ should be a strong, capable, independent character and I think they at least did a better job in it in the second game. If anything, giving her just some biking sections and letting her ride around the city would probably diminish her character.
Yeah I think the author forgot that this is an action video game, and those segments (from what I've seen from videos) are pretty few and far between. I'm sure if instead of sneaking around and knocking out bad guys, MJ just road a bike and interviewed people in some weird quasi-journalism mini-game, we'd be reading a very similar article to this one, just with a different headline. Still, I think there's some merit to their overall point.
I wish they picked a different game or have elaborated on their point a bit more because I definitely understand where the commentary is coming from, especially if you look at the first Spider-man game. There was a section in the second game on a side mission that does slow down and give the player a new perspective as Hailey, I personally really loved it and felt it was touching and poignant, but I wonder how this author would feel about that section.
I feel like they actually do tell a pretty coherent story if you pay attention. MJ isn’t just some damsel in distress. She’s directly involved in all things Spider-Man but she doesn’t have any powers at all. It’s brave, ballsy, and shows her courage and care for Peter and Miles. In this outing, the best she has is a glorified stun gun. I actually think she tells a deeper story than the other female characters in the game.
Edit: To give some context, I didn’t like the MJ missions from the first game. The pacing was definitely an issue and it didn’t feel like a game of skill but moreso a game of inconsistent enemy AI.
Some people exist to just HATE on MJ and I have no idea why. I feel like part of the motivation is this bigger hate for MJ.
The stealth sections in Spider-Guy don't work, and frustrate the user, because they take away all the player's toys and shoehorns them into a simplistic yet strangely difficult minigame. The idea is to build tension, but that tension feels cheapened by the fact that it isn't built on mechanics the player has already spent hours familiarizing themselves with.
Contrast this with Call of Doodie 4's famous "All Ghillied Up" mission. This is a mandatory stealth segment where you sneak through Chernobyl in an attempt to assassinate one of the main baddies. The player still has access to all their toys. The mission is still built on the same mechanics the player has been immersing themselves in throughout the rest of the campaign, and in fact uses them to enforce the stealth requirement. This mission is so well done that the first time I finished it, I immediately replayed it two more times before moving on with the rest of the game.
Metal Gear Solid V had its “Total Stealth” missions as separate, optional and absolutely cheeseable. But rarely in MG games is total stealth required and with the whole series sneaking around is (part of) their hook.
I think what games tend to miss about stealth is getting spotted and having a situation getting FUBAR. As a player having to deal with alarms blazing and guards opening fire with extremely lethal proficiency is an exciting rush. There’s a cat and mouse, run fight hide aspect to Metal Gear that other games miss. Metal Gear also has a small window to prevent enemies from going full alert—if you interrupt a guard before they finish yelling “Hostile!” for example, nearby enemies will investigate the shout but not go into combat mode.
The middle ground is chastising the player for failing to be stealthy. I feel like Metal Gear rewards the player for stealth, but doesn’t break the players balls over it beyond maybe a reduced mission rank. I’ve been playing Cyberpunk and characters in game will bemoan the player for failing to be discreet and even reduce mission rewards. It’s not as brazen as dropping a game over on the player, but I don’t need the game lecturing me like my mother because I didn’t do the dishes.
I feel like I'm the only person who enjoyed the original MJ missions. Feels bad to have everybody circlejerk about how objectively awful something you enjoyed was.
This post wasn't meant to be a circlejerk, and I apologize if my posting of this article has evolved into such. I was genuinely trying to ask for people's opinions on stealth missions while sharing an article I found enjoyable and humorous.
Not going to lie, I'm a little disappointed that not a lot of people in this thread haven't bothered to mention the bulk of the article's point, and I feel that's my fault in how I posted it. From the article:
This reminds me of a famous comic arc where a homeless girl is struggling to survive in the NYC winter and dreams of Spider-Man rescuing her. But he's unable to save her, because he didn't even know she existed. It's not his fault, he's not omnipotent, but it really fucks him up. "I swung over that alley so many times, I never knew."
With the article's emphasis on MJ telling stories that Spider-Man can't, I feel that they're disappointed that instead of getting something deeper, she's relegated to simple stealth missions; not simply, "Hur-dur, stealth missions bad!" Again, it's on me for not posting this article with a clearer emphasis on why I felt the need to post in the first place.
edited for typo
Sorry, I wasn't saying this is just a circlejerk; I was just commenting on how it feels like every time the first game was brought up, the conversation would inevitably turn to discussing how awful those portions were.
Oh snap that's my bad, I misinterpreted your comment completely! I'm sorry, I can definitely understand how it must suck. I'm not a fan of these sequences myself, but it's definitely not my intention to diminish the enjoyment others feel about them.
I didn't mind them when I replayed the first game recently. I didn't find them especially difficult or frustrating, either, and I consider myself terrible at stealth games. Until I stumbled upon this thread I actually had no idea those missions were so disliked. Makes me feel like I've been living in an oddly specific bubble, ha!
Well, what did you like about them? There are probably a ton of people that like those sections just like you. They’re just not as vocal. If you enjoyed it, then Insomniac succeeded.
I think the issue for most people who want to play a Spider-Man game is that they’re expecting to play as Spider-Man. So it’s mostly about expectations. There’s nothing wrong with the MJ sections, although they’re pretty basic and unremarkable stealth sequences, but they come after the sections where you get to do stealth sequences as Spider-Man. It’s a bit of a regression. It doesn’t help that the Spider-Man stealth missions are so fun, dynamic, and feel great.
Reminds me of the opposite: required head-to-head combat in games that can be played practically fully or mostly stealthily. Deus Ex: Human Revolution had that with the bosses. You could go stealth practically the whole time, but as soon as it was boss time, it was guns out buns out. And if you weren't used to playing that way, it sucked. If I'm remembering correctly, that got changed in DX: Mankind Divided. You still had to fight, but options for fighting from the shadows were provided and plentiful.
Another game that had that was Hitman Absolution. There were times you could/had to stealth, while there were other times you HAD to go guns blazing, bodies laying all over, not even a chance to hide them. As a stealth player, I hate that kinda thing. So I could see how the reverse could also be annoying for players who prefer more action. The newer, rebooted Hitman series (2016) does a much better job of giving people the option on how they want to play.
Yeah, that's even worse. I remember playing Alpha Protocol and some of the big fight sequences took me hours and hours because my character was just not built for that. I eventually quit because I hadn't wanted a guns blazing shooter.
I agree, stealth should be optional or limited to stealth games specifically. The only thing I've hated about the latest iteration of my longtime love, Armored Core, is that the game has a forced stealth mission.
A forced stealth mission.
In a multi-ton, jet powered, explosive laden, hunk of steel several stories tall.
A forced stealth mission where getting "spotted" is an instant fail. A forced stealth mission where in order to succeed you are also required to kill enemies at a distance, non-silently, to succeed.
"Forced stealth" makes me think of the insta-fail concentration camp level from Return to Castle Wolfenstein. There's literally no other section like this in the game, and suddenly you're hit with a section where just being seen causes an instant fail.
There are a couple of super easy paths which made me wonder why I was doing the stealth thing in the first place. Easily the worst mission of the game. Bonus points for a "secret" boss that's required for the extra loot.
The best MJ mission in the game is her last mission because there is no stealth involved.
I hate forced stealth missions in all shapes and forms. Just stop it.