I don't "get" soulslikes, but I'm interested in Bloodborne
I typically don't play these kind of games, the few times I've played Souls games, I found issues I had with every game I've played more or less, I've tried Demon Souls around the time where Dark Souls was a thing on PS3, it didn't take too long to get used to the general idea and flow of the game, slowish/sluggish controls on purpose, overall being very difficult, parrying being something that could make or break battles, healing items are consumables that you need to farm, dying makes you lose souls, EXP is the currency, etc.
It's been so long since I've played it, but I recall it being an interesting enough experience to stick around for a little bit, Bolterian Palace being somewhat memorable from the first 2 zones or so including the first area, but I absolutely did not finish it.
I've played the first part of the game by myself, but ended up watching my friends play it more than I did play it, so I ended up knowing that Shrine of Storms has that weapon that makes farming souls super easy, I ended up going there.
Then I encountered the rolling skeletons, I don't think I was aware at the time that Turpentine is how you fight them ,so I had miserable experience there, I think at the end I got tired of it that I ended up just quitting the game to reload to not lose my souls and halve my HP, which in hindsight, I didn't know that. you take half damage as a soul(iirc) at the time and compounded with the PS3's insanely long loading times, which eventually made me to simply quit and never return to it, not having shortcuts also doesn't help, killing the same mobs over and over just to try fighting a boss once isn't fun.
I've not played Dark Souls 1 or 2 myself, so I have nothing to say aside from that I've seen my friends play PvP a lot in DS2, and that Bed of Chaos apparently is a rushed boss by the devs to complete the game, and it shows.
Despite what the title may imply, I did play Bloodborne a little bit, I did get to the first boss(Father Cosguine?) and getting a parry on him was one of those memorable moments for me playing the game, but phase 2 happened, and I'm going to blame the camera or locking-on for my death because 3D games from that era had dogshit cameras.
I have also seen some of my friends play the game, and the weapons BB has looked so fun, of note is the Chikage, which I wanted to use when I played BB, but apparently it's not a good weapon to get on your first run of the game.
Might be worth noting that I gave Little Witch Nobeta a try to see how non Fromsoft Souls-likes are like, I also didn't really go back to it after defeating the first boss.
Then a year or two ago I decided to give Elden Ring a go, being pushed to it by an irl friend.
I rarely get a game and go "Wow I regret buying this", but ER was exactly that.
As usual, I did see a friend stream it in discord or play it while I'm at their house, so it's not that I didn't know what I was into, but I assumed it would be similar to my previous experience with souls games.
I picked up a Sorcerer, so my spells are barely better than hitting things with bare fists, my melee weapon is adequate at best, and my base stats were sort of gimped, I leveled up Intelligence to make my spells do more damage and for mobs, they are ok. I leveled up Dexterity as my main source of damage and that was... ok enough, at first.
I didn't get to Margit until a couple of hours in, I was wandering around and activating Lost Graces, just to avoid combat.
When I got to Margit, I died a lot but I did have some fun, it didn't feel unfair as much as it felt like my weapon limiting me and my spells barely tickling the boss.
Similar to how my previous Souls attempts went, I stopped playing, until one day I did accept my friends assisting me with the game instead of trying to do everything solo, and we felled Margit but with minimal intervention from my friends, we then got to Godrick and I don't remember much aside from the stairs and the stupid hitboxes.
After Godrick though, my lack of damage was even more apparent in the overworld areas after him, I can't really pick most battles in the world by myself because almost everything there is a group of enemies that notice you when you start attacking one of their group.
They handed me these souls giving item to level up my stats but despite leveling up a fair bit, my damage still felt pitiful and I didn't want to over level. When we called it a day that day, I never really returned to Elden Ring and I don't plan to, I "got" Souls games even less after that. Nightreign however seems to be a much more interesting game in general.
I think you'd need to be a big fan of Dark Souls in the first place to even find fun with ER.
This leads us to the past week or two where the same friend that got me to buy ER convinced me to play Dark Souls 3 with seamless co-op in memory of a recently deceased friend who has played the PC Souls games except DS3.
And I'm having fun, for change? I'm getting, guided, sure, and I'm not having the full experience by hitting the noob traps, and the bosses seem to get mowed down by playing with more experienced players.
Maybe it's a change in mindset, or maybe I'd only enjoy Souls games co-op.
My issue with DS3 however, is that everything looks the same to me, as in I'd get lost very easily because of how similar everything looks, which is in contrast of what I remember Demon Souls being like.
Not having a map of sorts makes me it difficult to navigate areas in games like these.
Given my struggles with the other Souls games, the fact that I really like what I've seen from BB's gameplay, the weapons, the fact that you can parry at range, what I've read of the story and lore that makes it very compelling. Are there any tips or ways that I can change my perspective so that when/if I undust my PS4 and my friend's copy of BB, I can have fun? I get that I don't need to like Souls games, but this feels like it'd be my best shot.
I don't intend to play it co-op because of both wanting the "full experience" and my PS4 can be modded on its current firmware.
Disclaimer: heavily biased, these are my favorite games of all time.
+1 to @Carrow and wanted to bring up a separate point. The class and build you choose, especially early game, can make or break your enjoyment of these titles. Bloodborne is probably the least affected by this, but reading that you finally attempted ER and went with a magic first build helps paint a good picture for why it was such a struggle. Magic is notoriously weird in FS games - it is almost always the very best option by the end of the game, and as such, it’s almost always the least beginner-friendly. ER is the most beginner friendly by far if you choose to go full strength build and/or start to lean Strength/INT by endgame. But I fully acknowledge that needing to be aware of a studio’s tendencies to bias beginners towards a certain class is, in and of itself, a beginner-unfriendly design choice :)
With that in mind, I’ll add that parrying in Bloodborne, and the rally mechanic (heal some HP if you do damage to an enemy shortly after taking damage yourself) encourage a super aggressive playstyle and it’s actually quite forgiving if you lean into it. Per my first point, I’m sorry to say, but I would probably steer you away from the chikage and other Skill-based (the attribute “Skill,” not IRL talent) weapons. In my experience, FS games are almost universally easier to ease into with heavy strength based weapons. Kirkhammer is an early game weapon that trivializes encounters with smaller enemies. Hunter’s axe + blunderbussis is going to be a lot easier of a starting combo than anything else (but I think you did that if I read your post correctly).
Exploration, using every tool at your disposal, taking a break when you’re bashing your head against a wall… all very viable options in FS games. Good luck!
This is very dependent on the individual. I personally do a lot better with the quicker pace of Dex builds in most FromSoft games (though I haven't played Bloodborne so I can't speak specifically to that one, and afaik its design is much more focused on the type of fast-paced combat I like a Dex build for in other FromSoft games regardless of which weapon you pick). I'm not under the impression that I'm alone in preferring Dex builds, though, as I've definitely at least seen some online content creators who think those are the better on-ramp than tankier Str-based builds. Ultimately that's gonna come down a lot to someone's preference regardless.
No argument, it’s totally subjective and OP’s experience might not align with mine.
I’ve found that, if you’re able to get your head around the mechanics, the dex dance almost always feels better IMO. But there are a lot of enemies that are also just trivialized when you pancake them with a hammer. There are trade-offs, no doubt. Having a slow weapon means that the occasional super-jumpy and flighty enemy becomes a major nuisance. But in the case of Bloodborne at least, thats solved by a weapon like the Kirkhammer having a second form that’s basically a quick-slashing long sword.
to be fair, I'm a fan of lots of fast attacks in other combat games too (I think I was just talking about this in one of the gaming threads about Hades lol), so it's definitely partially personal preference on my part too lol. I really feel the difference in the speeds of combat animations in FromSoft stuff, and I hate waiting to recover from slow ones. So that's definitely a factor for me but might be the opposite for someone else!
Stance breaking with the Zweihander in Dark Souls 1 was just about the easiest go throughout the game. You rarely have to respond to something that's flat on the ground.
Reportedly stance-breaking builds can be goated in Elden Ring too, but I haven't tried one yet. Getting good at that part of the mechanics would probably improve my play a lot tho lol
I mean, it's no more complex than just using the most poise damaging attack you have. Which in Elden Ring is almost always a jump heavy attack with a big stick. Powerstanced big sticks if you can spare the strength. Maybe it'll teach you how to exploit those moments better or teach you what hyperarmor you can exploit but I honestly doubt it will do more than that.
The games are at their most difficult with a build that doesn't optimize some specific aspect like stance breaking or endless magic. My faith sunbro builds with the Balder Swag Sword or Astora Straight Sword in Dark Souls are much more difficult than pancaking everything with a Lightning Zwei. Both are fun to play, one because it's fun to dismiss everything that jumps at you with a well timed smackdown, and the other because you feel like you can adapt to every situation.
DS2 probably makes the best use of heavy weapons, which quite literally do pancake many enemies. In particular, NPC-style enemies are some of the most difficult fights, but you can stunlock them by swinging a Greatsword. It can even flatten the reindeer in the Frigid Outskirts.
That said, DS2 also has the Rapier, which is an incredible dex weapon. To say nothing of the Ice Rapier...
Agreed that heavy weapons, which can be good in any Souls to be clear, really shine in DKS2. I first beat the game with two bog-standard +10 maces powerstanced. Nothing withstood the basic bonk and poise breakage. I just steamrolled through it and didn't use Focus at all. I was taking everyone to the International House of Pancakes.
That said it's a little overshadowed in DKS2 by powerstanced daggers. Absolutely absurd DPS and versatility, beat the game on my second (of many) run with just those. Almost broken honestly. A shame that's the only Souls where an early dagger build is not only viable, but the best thing going.
Ultimately I didn't end up beating DS2 because that game makes me despair. I know the Frigid Outskirts and your linked video says it like it is: "These reindeer are miserable to fight". Heavy bonks are definitely useful.
That said, I remember thinking Manus was easy because I slapped him silly with a heavy weapon. Until I tried again that is with another build.
*”Well, what is it?” intensifies*
Giant Dad became a meme because it works.
100% agreed, one of my favorite ways to play DS1 especially!
For sure, until you hit PvP in Oolacile. My Onion Samurai build (Catarina helmet, Crimson Skirt, Havel Gauntlets, no chest, Chaos Blade, Dark Hand on the left with an Uchi backup) wrecked a lot of overconfident Giant and Lightning Dads.
But for PvE it's largely unmatched.
My experience with magic in DS3 has been that the early game was good, mid-game it fell off a bit but was still useful to singularly pick out single enemies from range but I ended up being super squishy that I ended up investing in defenses so that I can survive a hit, then late game with Sorcerer's Staff and spells like Soul Stream, it picked up again. Sword of Judgement and Moonlight Greatsword did make my melee attacks stay comparable to who I played with, despite it registering as 580 in my status menu while they had 900.
We finished the final boss yesterday but none of the bosses ended up sticking to memory because they all died from the first battle(and there’s the whole getting one/two shot in the middle of the game but seamless co-op doesn’t kick everyone out of the boss arena), but Nameless King and the Dragonarch Peak were both the most memorable parts of DS3 despite that.
We’re supposed to start the DLC areas today but we’ll say how that’ll pan out, since I may not have as much free time today.
I don't remember rally in BB but I could've simply forgotten it, if it was mentioned in game.
I only remember Saw Cleaver from BB, not the weapons you mentioned, sorry.
Though yeah I'll probably keep the Chikage for new runs or NG+ perhaps? And go with Strength instead as you suggested and see where I'd go with BB when I get to it.
I think I'm in a similar boat as I've bounced off FromSoft games many times but still feel like they're close to clicking.
I say use every tool at your disposal to make it a better gaming experience. My best time playing Fromsoft was when I was playing Dark Souls and exploited the save files to create save points and obviate the mechanics that make you lose progress (I'm too old and there's too many games to play to mess around like that). I think you can do this on modded firmware? I think it can also be done with cloud saves.
But I also had an online map handy. I avoided over-relying on it, using it mainly as a reference of where stuff was but not really using it for objective seeking. Again, too old and too little time to run in circles because I put the game down for a week to do real life stuff and didn't keep my mental map up to date.
To that end, a personal journal can also help you keep track of your various objectives.
Someone with BB specific game knowledge should give guidance on building towards the archetype you want to play as I have found the balance in FS games... poor. I do wonder if you'd be playing an unpatched version on your PS4 and how impactful the patches were, as I recall, Elden Ring patches were massively impactful.
I may be critical as I find some design decisions make things difficult by being user hostile instead of earnest difficulty, but I do still enjoy their games. Beating Ornstein & Smogh on my first try is one of my top personal gaming achievements.
Keeping a personal journey sounds like it could be helpful, never thought about using a map either, I'll consider these for whenever I decide to play Bloodborne.
I think my version of the game is up to date enough in terms of content, I actually played something on my PS4 in like 4 to 5 years, and BB even longer.
Difficulty is a weird and messy subject, most people that I brought up the subject of difficulty to seem to agree that it's subjective, though the line between "Hard for the sake of being hard/frustrating" and "Hard for the sake of being challenging" is something we wouldn't agree on. Demon Souls not having quick ways to get back to the boss like Bonfires and general lack of shortcuts to makes it tedious and frustrating, others think it's part of the challenge.
You could argue that having hidden enemies behind corners or falling from ceilings is users hostile, but you could argue just as much that it's meant to teach you to keep your guard up at all times.
Oh I definitely find the trap enemies and what not funny. Yeah it's like how folks feel about backtracking in metroidvanias, some find it part of the fun, others find it tedious and frustrating. I feel FS games have a lot of rewarding challenges to overcome, and a lot of arbitrary tedium.
What Dark Souls mechanics make you lose progress? I can't think of any
Losing souls when you die twice. Some folks disagree that it matters. But if I end a session at the same location, with no paths opened or bonfires lit, and fewer resources, that's lost progress. It can be pretty discouraging to newer players of FS games.
the dying part lol. I haven't done what he's describing but I def. get where he's coming from —the concept of a "runback" was pretty new to me & depending on how long that takes, how hard the boss is, & how much time I've got, I'd def. be tempted.
relatedly I recently played Donkey Kong Country 3 and pre-emulator save states that would have been absolutely arduous.
That doesn't reset any game progress though. You keep your collectable items, any door unlocks, bonfire discoveries, and all boss kills. Respawning enemies is a mechanic, and one that's used for item farming, and xp farming. I wouldn't say at all that it's resetting progress when you die.
Now Rogue on the other hand.
Especially if you're newer to the games and thus not a skilled player, losing your XP when you die before collecting it is pretty common. I don't think this is a design failure by any stretch, I think this is very intentional and I don't think it's bad for the type of games FromSoft makes, but for someone who is not yet into them or good at them, it does Feel Bad and very much does feel like losing progress -- especially because for most noobs, getting far enough to make the kind of stuff that really feels like progression (unlocking new bonfires, opening shortcuts) can take a long time.
And while items can indeed be farmed this way, the items you use in a failed run also don't respawn, which makes newbs even more terrified of using items than they naturally are. The way Estus flasks work indicates that the devs were at least somewhat aware of this type of problem, or at least of the related problem that grinding for health items when you run low is annoying af in the games where this isn't how they work, even for experienced players.
I think these games are generally well-designed, at least in this respect, but I don't think it's worthwhile to dismiss the common points of friction new players experience just because it's not as disheartening to an experienced player. Part of getting good at these games, or at least gaining experience with them, is getting used to these mechanics and understanding that they aren't as punishing as they first feel (this is where the classic "tough but fair" descriptor comes from), but new players, particularly those who aren't experienced with similar hard games, are gonna feel the brunt of the "punishing" before they've gained that experience, and it's not unreasonable to be put off by it.
You're not wrong, and learning the... fluidity of your assets is imo as important an aspect of from design as "dying less often" lol. But also yeah if this guy is just starting out, it is crushing.
I really never saw it like that. Maybe I'm just lucky, and the fact that I started on Demon's Souls on the PS3 might mean I have some blindness in this area, but all the keys I gathered, doors I unlocked, shortcuts I opened on my doomed walk through Prison Of Hope were not lost upon death. I did not lose progress.
Just had to schwackadoodle a few more mind flayers to get my currency and consumables stocked up again.
Seems like a long ass-time ago now :(
I know what you mean lol—I think there's room for aa fascinating longitudinal study for someone's doctorate out there looking at the effects of childhood poverty on video game resource stinginess, if anybody's looking for a research topic...
I never really considered it any more of a problem than losing health and having to pick up stimpacks or other consumable healing items etc in any other game
I had a pretty similar experience with FS games when I first tried them. Elden Ring was actually my first one and I even attempted to get a refund but was over the 2 hour window on steam. After that I pushed through until it clicked and i "got it". Then I went back and played Sekiro, the DS's and a few souls-likes (Lies of P being a standout).
I do feel like the way FS handles co-op a bit restrictive for no reason though and would prefer if they just did what the mods let you do.
I've actually been playing No Rest For The Wicked which is an isomorphic "souls inspired" ARPG that really ticks a lot of the same boxes but handles the co-op in a really great way. Instead of joining eachothers "sessions" you create a "realm" that you can then invite your friends to, that way you can all work on progress together. It's still technically early access but there is already a lot there to offer.
If you have a good PC you can play it with Shadps4, for glorious FPS.
Personally, the thing that made bloodborne click for me is playing Kings Field 4 on an emulated PS2 (to use save states on - the game has too many FAFO instant kill moments for something with so few save points). After playing it I honestly think the Soulslike games are something of a pale imitation. KF games are very slow but the controls are much tighter. Things in Bloodborne, for instance, feel like there are instances where things move unnaturally or unpredictably which leads to some deaths that feel unfair. KF games still have unfair deaths, but the reasons for them are very different and don’t feel as random.
I didn’t get bloodborne the first time either.
Besides keeping at it, something quite different from gaming helped me change perspectives.
Basically these games have some parallel with how motor skill learning works.
Skill learning: Developing new movements.
Optimization: Adjusting to new external factors.
By repeating a set of motor instructions, the small brain will optimize movement based on feedback. Think about playing tennis, after acquiring the skill, the motor skills needed to play have to be optimized based on external conditions. A forehand needs different power if the wind changes, or if you play on a different size field etc. etc.
So thinking of soulsborne games like this, the repetition is part of the optimization process. Learning where the traps are. Doing runbacks to boss areas without getting damage. All optimization. And no optimization happens if you don’t get feedback; I.e. dying over and over.