“I’m admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections,” wrote Cobia [...] “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”
“I try to be very non-judgmental when I’m getting a new COVID patient that’s unvaccinated, but I really just started asking them, ‘Why haven’t you gotten the vaccine?’ And I’ll just ask it point blank, in the least judgmental way possible,” she said. “And most of them, they’re very honest, they give me answers. ‘I talked to this person, I saw this thing on Facebook, I got this email, I saw this on the news,’ you know, these are all the reasons that I didn’t get vaccinated.
“And the one question that I always ask them is, did you make an appointment with your primary care doctor and ask them for their opinion on whether or not you should receive the vaccine? And so far, nobody has answered yes to that question.”
Why are you putting the impetus on solving the problem on this woman who's already overworked and burnt out? Have you not considered that she's perhaps the last person that should be shouldering...
I would implore that doctor to talk to all the PCPs she knows to have them (or their office) reach out personally to all the patients on their roster.
Why are you putting the impetus on solving the problem on this woman who's already overworked and burnt out? Have you not considered that she's perhaps the last person that should be shouldering this burden?
Why is your attention directed at her, instead of the entire media empires devoted to spreading misinformation? At the representatives for places like Alabama who continue to push for legislation to remove science education? At the people who are spreading misinformation throughout their social networks? At Facebook and other large platforms for allowing this to spread? At the bad actors throughout the entire system?
Instead, you are chastising someone who's job is to save people who willingly didn't want to be saved? Why?
Why is your experience representative of every single point in the system? Why are you asking a doctor, a single point in the system, to solve the system? You say this is a two way street - when...
Why is your experience representative of every single point in the system? Why are you asking a doctor, a single point in the system, to solve the system?
You say this is a two way street - when did you reach out to your care provider? Are you not equally at fault?
You say she's complaining, yet this is not an article not written by her - this is someone taking quotes of what she said to weave a narrative. How do you know that she is complaining? Even if she is complaining, how are you factoring in the fact that she is overworked and burnt out into consideration as to whether you should be chastising her in the first place?
How do you know she is not engaging in personal outreach? The article highlights how she is having conversations with the family and telling them to get vaccinated. This seems like at least some level of outreach to me. She didn't have to do this and I know many who haven't. Why are you mad at her for being compassionate?
I'm not sure about you, but I was struck by the amount of compassion this person is willing to give someone with a differing viewpoint, one which invalidates her very worth as a human. I'm not left with a feeling that you're giving her the same in return - it feels like you're jumping to a lot of conclusions here and I don't think it's fair to treat her that way when we know so little.
Don't forget there's also a financial disincentive: If it's not a regular wellness visit, it'll likely cost a copay. If uninsured tremendously more. It's a waste of money, considering that any...
You say this is a two way street - when did you reach out to your care provider?
Don't forget there's also a financial disincentive: If it's not a regular wellness visit, it'll likely cost a copay. If uninsured tremendously more.
It's a waste of money, considering that any doctor that isn't a quack will say GET IT (unless very specific circumstances which person is likely already aware of).
Having run physician offices, PCP included, the self-pay (uninsured) visit cost is barely more than the copay that most insured patients pay. Not to mention the financial disincentive, that should...
Having run physician offices, PCP included, the self-pay (uninsured) visit cost is barely more than the copay that most insured patients pay.
Not to mention the financial disincentive, that should be part of their thought process, of contracting COVID and being hospitalized. There's a financial disincentive to maintaining your automobile, taking it to a mechanic can be expensive to have the regular maintenance performed, but not doing so is stupendously more expensive and akin to hospitalization. So it's most certainly not a waste of money in either case.
There have been times where I've avoided seeing a doctor because the $20 copay for the visit would be completely draining my bank account, I'd have to take off work to do it which meant I wouldn't...
There have been times where I've avoided seeing a doctor because the $20 copay for the visit would be completely draining my bank account, I'd have to take off work to do it which meant I wouldn't have my normal paycheck which meant I'd either not be eating or I wouldn't be making rent, and I'd have to figure out how to get there which would inevitably cost more money that I didn't have. I know and knew that putting off seeing a doctor was potentially going to cost me more in the long run, but I didn't have the money to gamble on "what if it gets worse." You just cross your fingers and hope it gets better. And that's when I was actually sick and knew I needed a doctor. No way in hell was I doing regular checkups or going to go see them if I was anything short of dying.
Ok. I'm not saying that going to a doctor doesn't cost money or that people can be too poor to do so (I've been there too), but the venn diagram that contains willing to ask their doctor, but is...
Ok.
I'm not saying that going to a doctor doesn't cost money or that people can be too poor to do so (I've been there too), but the venn diagram that contains willing to ask their doctor, but is too poor to do so on one side and believes COVID is a hoax on the other is going to have a negligible overlap in the middle.
I wonder what percentage of people even have a primary care doctor? I've gone over 10 years since getting out of the Army without any PCP whatsoever. It's only very recently that I've decided I'm...
Since she's writing about young healthy people here - how many of them are going to have a substantive relationship with their primary care doctor?
I wonder what percentage of people even have a primary care doctor? I've gone over 10 years since getting out of the Army without any PCP whatsoever. It's only very recently that I've decided I'm old enough that I should probably start getting an annual physical done. I was well-insured throughout the last 10 years, I just didn't have any reason to go see a doctor.
I find myself in a weird predicament as of late with regards to misinformation and people who've been brainwashed. On the one hand, I understand they are humans and I have nothing if not for...
I find myself in a weird predicament as of late with regards to misinformation and people who've been brainwashed.
On the one hand, I understand they are humans and I have nothing if not for compassion for a fellow human. On the other hand, our society and the globe is quickly headed to destruction in the hands of many misinformed humans. I find myself with a contradictory viewpoint, much like this doctor holds - disdain and dismissal of these individuals and compassion for their plight. Perhaps the way to disentangle the contradiction is to think of it in abstract and concrete terms... the idea of them suffering does not bother me because they are reaping what they sow, but the people themselves I do not wish to see suffer.
I hope the end result of all this suffering is that we accelerate a bit towards a better society.
I feel much the same, I even think that given time to heal, even the most bigoted and ignorant can be reformed. However, we're growing ever short on time. At some point compassion must stop...
I feel much the same, I even think that given time to heal, even the most bigoted and ignorant can be reformed.
However, we're growing ever short on time. At some point compassion must stop because the ignorance has litterally reached the point where it is killing people.
IMO the civil war has already started. At least my side will likely be able to win with polio outbreaks.
Compassion and boundaries are not mutually exclusive, whether individually or societally. The challenge I see right now is that those with the compassion seem to lack sufficient means to support...
Compassion and boundaries are not mutually exclusive, whether individually or societally. The challenge I see right now is that those with the compassion seem to lack sufficient means to support their boundaries.
Historical context: in Europe there were religious wars for hundreds of years where by modern standards, extremists on all sides believed in dangerous nonsense. These wars didn’t stop because...
Historical context: in Europe there were religious wars for hundreds of years where by modern standards, extremists on all sides believed in dangerous nonsense. These wars didn’t stop because people stopped fervently believing nonsense, but rather because religious tolerance became widely accepted.
There are arguments that modern civilization can’t afford this because it’s more fragile, but the habit of believing that you must convert the other side at all costs raises the stakes in a way that doesn’t seem like part of the solution.
I think that those of us who are vaccinated can afford to relax a little. There is of course plenty still to be done to vaccinate people worldwide, but framing things as “the globe is quickly headed for destruction” and thereby making conflicts worse doesn’t seem like part of the answer?
For thousands of years we had evolutionary forces that kept our population under control. In the 1900's, our population quadrupled from 1.5 billion to 6 billion. Death rates fell, but birth rates...
For thousands of years we had evolutionary forces that kept our population under control.
In the 1900's, our population quadrupled from 1.5 billion to 6 billion.
Death rates fell, but birth rates did not.
Consumption and pollution has also increased.
Either birth rates must fall dramatically, or death rates must increase dramatically.
Can you see a humane path forward? I can't.
And with the increase in pandemics and natural disasters, it looks like a path will be chosen for us.
As an individual, I am grateful that COVID is under control, and that most people were spared.
But fear we are only delaying the inevitable.
So I am strangely at peace with what is happening in America right now, which has always prioritized individual responsibility over government control.
The humane path forward is that birth rates are already falling dramatically on their own, as a result of female empowerment and education and easily accessible birth control. Neomalthusianism is...
The humane path forward is that birth rates are already falling dramatically on their own, as a result of female empowerment and education and easily accessible birth control. Neomalthusianism is pseudoscience that's going to lead to a lot of unnecessary human suffering if it's not kept well in check, as did similar thinking embodied in eugenics in the last century.
Not sure where you got neomalthusianism from. Even if our population growth flattens, the current population is scientifically unsustainable. 14,000 scientists warn of "untold suffering" if we...
Not sure where you got neomalthusianism from.
Even if our population growth flattens, the current population is scientifically unsustainable.
Why? The global population growth rate has been falling for 50 years and will almost definitely continue to fall until population peaks in the not too distant future. "Keep doing our best to stop...
Either birth rates must fall dramatically, or death rates must increase dramatically.
Why? The global population growth rate has been falling for 50 years and will almost definitely continue to fall until population peaks in the not too distant future. "Keep doing our best to stop people from dying" seems like a humane path forward.
Birth rates for reference. I personally think we shouldn't do our best just to keep people from dying, but just try to get contraception and whatever improvements to living we can to the 3rd...
I personally think we shouldn't do our best just to keep people from dying, but just try to get contraception and whatever improvements to living we can to the 3rd world, since from what I've seen the only thing that seems to clearly make people have more children is general misery/poverty and if they live better lives, they will have less children.
Apologies, I didn't really expand upon this point. This was more a reflection upon a culmination of problems caused by people denying science. Problems like global warming.
framing things as “the globe is quickly headed for destruction” and thereby making conflicts worse doesn’t seem like part of the answer?
Apologies, I didn't really expand upon this point. This was more a reflection upon a culmination of problems caused by people denying science. Problems like global warming.
It's like the phrase "you'll never find an atheist in a foxhole." Ignoring the obvious religious implications, it's more to do with looking for hope when it's too late. These people were of the...
It's like the phrase "you'll never find an atheist in a foxhole." Ignoring the obvious religious implications, it's more to do with looking for hope when it's too late. These people were of the mind that they wouldn't get COVID because of some bullshit they'd read, and then suddenly had the strongest piece of evidence to prove them wrong, and rapidly changed their tune. You can see it on /r/leopardsatemyface and various other related subreddits where people seem to get off on people suffering the consequences of poor decision making.
That isn't to say I think any of them deserve this. We can talk about critical thinking until the cows come home, but to be honest, it isn't necessarily everybody's strong suit and this trait shouldn't be treated as a failure on their part, but as a crime by the people who would manipulate these individuals.
I think the doctor in the article has the best response with her last question, however:
And the one question that I always ask them is, did you make an appointment with your primary care doctor and ask them for their opinion on whether or not you should receive the vaccine?
If you are going to take something on blind faith, you should at least ask somebody who is both qualified and trustworthy, but then the issue comes when individuals arbitrarily choose who meets these criteria. The issue is, as far as I can tell, the sorts of people who aren't getting this vaccine are also the sorts who don't go to a doctor until something happens, so they're also unlikely to go just to have a discussion about getting a vaccine they already feel is unnecessary.
If they want to grasp at straws after they're diagnosed with COVID-19 and ask for the vaccine right then, then yeah, not only is it way too late (since vaccines only work before you get whatever...
If they want to grasp at straws after they're diagnosed with COVID-19 and ask for the vaccine right then, then yeah, not only is it way too late (since vaccines only work before you get whatever they protect against, and they take a decent amount of time to become fully active), but why ask for the vaccine at all? Not only is it massively hypocritical, but they deserve to reap what they sow.
This thing has killed millions of people across the world, and if they thought that it was no big deal, then their suffering should be no big deal.
We spend years educating people. We have access to the sum total of humanity's knowledge on supercomputers in our pockets, etc.
If you are an adult, some of the basic tools to navigate daily life is the ability to think critically, to separate facts from opinions, and to weigh how much to trust a research source. If you've failed to get those skills, then you are in danger, and you should get them now.
No. People do not deserve to die because of their beliefs no matter how misguided those beliefs are. That is quite frankly an horrible position to take. The price for stupidity should be mitigated...
Exemplary
Not only is it massively hypocritical, but they deserve to reap what they sow.
No. People do not deserve to die because of their beliefs no matter how misguided those beliefs are. That is quite frankly an horrible position to take. The price for stupidity should be mitigated by society as much as possible. Not only is n the case of Covid but just as a general principle. Next time I might be the stupid one and if possible I'd like it if the consequences of my stupidity wasn't a possible death sentence.
This would be an easier answer if deniers harmed only themselves. Surely you would agree that if anyone has to suffer the consequences of COVID, it would be preferable for it not to be the...
This would be an easier answer if deniers harmed only themselves. Surely you would agree that if anyone has to suffer the consequences of COVID, it would be preferable for it not to be the careful, the considerate, and the rational rather than the reckless, the selfish, and the stupid. There are vulnerabilities in each category, but when the latter group is actively making life more dangerous for the former, can't you see apportioning sympathy and resources accordingly? I may not wish death on those responsible for killing our loved ones, but when the champagne of their ignorance (benefits they were enjoying such as cheap air travel and wedding venues) turns to piss, I'm not going to rush to suck it out of their mouths.
I agree with you very much in advocating for a society that mitigates my own stupidity. No, these people don't deserve to die, but I understand the anger of those who suffer after doing everything right.
Not from a societal point of view. On a personal level of course if I got to choose I'd be picking based on my subjective preferences (it would be impossible not to). But as a society I think it...
Surely you would agree that if anyone has to suffer the consequences of COVID, it would be preferable for it not to be the careful, the considerate, and the rational rather than the reckless, the selfish, and the stupid.
Not from a societal point of view. On a personal level of course if I got to choose I'd be picking based on my subjective preferences (it would be impossible not to). But as a society I think it would be hard/impossible to agree on an objective measure for those criteria. Eg. who is being reckless vs who is being just stupid?
In this case there is a very clear objective criteria: If one is capable of getting the vaccinne, they get it. If they aren't for any reason other than "My immune system is comprimised," they are...
In this case there is a very clear objective criteria:
If one is capable of getting the vaccinne, they get it. If they aren't for any reason other than "My immune system is comprimised," they are ignorant, and their ignorance is making the vaccinne less effective and actively killing people.
I have 0 sympathy for issues that are so fundementally basic. I don't wish ill will on them per se, but they also get pushed to the back of the line for sympathy.
I said something like that once and I soon regretted it a lot. You might want to read through that thread and comment. (Maybe the comment first.) It won't make you more sympathetic to anti-vaxxers...
They deserve to reap what they sow.
I said something like that once and I soon regretted it a lot. You might want to read through that thread and comment. (Maybe the comment first.) It won't make you more sympathetic to anti-vaxxers but it did make me genuinely regret saying right wingers disproportionately dying from COVID is technically a positive.
I completely missed this I switch names every year, and last year I thought it would be funny to pick the most absurd name I could think of, to see if people treated me less seriously. Well done....
I completely missed this
From /MonkeyPants: Usually, we learn by being fucked up.
I switch names every year, and last year I thought it would be funny to pick the most absurd name I could think of, to see if people treated me less seriously. Well done.
BTW, I think the exact quote might have been that we only learn by fucking up. E.g. poking a finger in the fire.
Being fucked up has a different connotation. E.g. physical or emotional scars.
This is the equivalent to saying "git gud, scrub." Critical thinking isn't a skill to teach or learn, it is a practice that must be properly developed. The problem, as I see it, is many people...
If you are an adult, some of the basic tools to navigate daily life is the ability to think critically, to separate facts from opinions, and to weigh how much to trust a research source. If you've failed to get those skills, then you are in danger, and you should get them now.
This is the equivalent to saying "git gud, scrub."
Critical thinking isn't a skill to teach or learn, it is a practice that must be properly developed. The problem, as I see it, is many people come to many bad, and outright wrong conclusions through generally logical processes. The rest of us can't track the logic because we're missing a crucial element, but the issue is their methodology is flawed. I'd also go further and suggest a fair amount of it may be to do with the fact that about 10% of the population might suffer with oppositional defiant disorder.
I guess my point here is, you haven't said anything that demonstrates people deserve to die for thinking differently. I would say they deserve help in correcting their thinking.
Why are you putting the impetus on solving the problem on this woman who's already overworked and burnt out? Have you not considered that she's perhaps the last person that should be shouldering this burden?
Why is your attention directed at her, instead of the entire media empires devoted to spreading misinformation? At the representatives for places like Alabama who continue to push for legislation to remove science education? At the people who are spreading misinformation throughout their social networks? At Facebook and other large platforms for allowing this to spread? At the bad actors throughout the entire system?
Instead, you are chastising someone who's job is to save people who willingly didn't want to be saved? Why?
Why is your experience representative of every single point in the system? Why are you asking a doctor, a single point in the system, to solve the system?
You say this is a two way street - when did you reach out to your care provider? Are you not equally at fault?
You say she's complaining, yet this is not an article not written by her - this is someone taking quotes of what she said to weave a narrative. How do you know that she is complaining? Even if she is complaining, how are you factoring in the fact that she is overworked and burnt out into consideration as to whether you should be chastising her in the first place?
How do you know she is not engaging in personal outreach? The article highlights how she is having conversations with the family and telling them to get vaccinated. This seems like at least some level of outreach to me. She didn't have to do this and I know many who haven't. Why are you mad at her for being compassionate?
I'm not sure about you, but I was struck by the amount of compassion this person is willing to give someone with a differing viewpoint, one which invalidates her very worth as a human. I'm not left with a feeling that you're giving her the same in return - it feels like you're jumping to a lot of conclusions here and I don't think it's fair to treat her that way when we know so little.
Don't forget there's also a financial disincentive: If it's not a regular wellness visit, it'll likely cost a copay. If uninsured tremendously more.
It's a waste of money, considering that any doctor that isn't a quack will say GET IT (unless very specific circumstances which person is likely already aware of).
Having run physician offices, PCP included, the self-pay (uninsured) visit cost is barely more than the copay that most insured patients pay.
Not to mention the financial disincentive, that should be part of their thought process, of contracting COVID and being hospitalized. There's a financial disincentive to maintaining your automobile, taking it to a mechanic can be expensive to have the regular maintenance performed, but not doing so is stupendously more expensive and akin to hospitalization. So it's most certainly not a waste of money in either case.
There have been times where I've avoided seeing a doctor because the $20 copay for the visit would be completely draining my bank account, I'd have to take off work to do it which meant I wouldn't have my normal paycheck which meant I'd either not be eating or I wouldn't be making rent, and I'd have to figure out how to get there which would inevitably cost more money that I didn't have. I know and knew that putting off seeing a doctor was potentially going to cost me more in the long run, but I didn't have the money to gamble on "what if it gets worse." You just cross your fingers and hope it gets better. And that's when I was actually sick and knew I needed a doctor. No way in hell was I doing regular checkups or going to go see them if I was anything short of dying.
Ok.
I'm not saying that going to a doctor doesn't cost money or that people can be too poor to do so (I've been there too), but the venn diagram that contains willing to ask their doctor, but is too poor to do so on one side and believes COVID is a hoax on the other is going to have a negligible overlap in the middle.
I wonder what percentage of people even have a primary care doctor? I've gone over 10 years since getting out of the Army without any PCP whatsoever. It's only very recently that I've decided I'm old enough that I should probably start getting an annual physical done. I was well-insured throughout the last 10 years, I just didn't have any reason to go see a doctor.
I find myself in a weird predicament as of late with regards to misinformation and people who've been brainwashed.
On the one hand, I understand they are humans and I have nothing if not for compassion for a fellow human. On the other hand, our society and the globe is quickly headed to destruction in the hands of many misinformed humans. I find myself with a contradictory viewpoint, much like this doctor holds - disdain and dismissal of these individuals and compassion for their plight. Perhaps the way to disentangle the contradiction is to think of it in abstract and concrete terms... the idea of them suffering does not bother me because they are reaping what they sow, but the people themselves I do not wish to see suffer.
I hope the end result of all this suffering is that we accelerate a bit towards a better society.
I feel much the same, I even think that given time to heal, even the most bigoted and ignorant can be reformed.
However, we're growing ever short on time. At some point compassion must stop because the ignorance has litterally reached the point where it is killing people.
IMO the civil war has already started. At least my side will likely be able to win with polio outbreaks.
Compassion and boundaries are not mutually exclusive, whether individually or societally. The challenge I see right now is that those with the compassion seem to lack sufficient means to support their boundaries.
Historical context: in Europe there were religious wars for hundreds of years where by modern standards, extremists on all sides believed in dangerous nonsense. These wars didn’t stop because people stopped fervently believing nonsense, but rather because religious tolerance became widely accepted.
There are arguments that modern civilization can’t afford this because it’s more fragile, but the habit of believing that you must convert the other side at all costs raises the stakes in a way that doesn’t seem like part of the solution.
I think that those of us who are vaccinated can afford to relax a little. There is of course plenty still to be done to vaccinate people worldwide, but framing things as “the globe is quickly headed for destruction” and thereby making conflicts worse doesn’t seem like part of the answer?
For thousands of years we had evolutionary forces that kept our population under control.
In the 1900's, our population quadrupled from 1.5 billion to 6 billion.
Death rates fell, but birth rates did not.
Consumption and pollution has also increased.
Either birth rates must fall dramatically, or death rates must increase dramatically.
Can you see a humane path forward? I can't.
And with the increase in pandemics and natural disasters, it looks like a path will be chosen for us.
As an individual, I am grateful that COVID is under control, and that most people were spared.
But fear we are only delaying the inevitable.
So I am strangely at peace with what is happening in America right now, which has always prioritized individual responsibility over government control.
The humane path forward is that birth rates are already falling dramatically on their own, as a result of female empowerment and education and easily accessible birth control. Neomalthusianism is pseudoscience that's going to lead to a lot of unnecessary human suffering if it's not kept well in check, as did similar thinking embodied in eugenics in the last century.
Not sure where you got neomalthusianism from.
Even if our population growth flattens, the current population is scientifically unsustainable.
14,000 scientists warn of "untold suffering" if we fail to act on climate change
Millennials already struggle to afford children. What is it going to be like in fifty years time?
Why? The global population growth rate has been falling for 50 years and will almost definitely continue to fall until population peaks in the not too distant future. "Keep doing our best to stop people from dying" seems like a humane path forward.
Birth rates for reference.
I personally think we shouldn't do our best just to keep people from dying, but just try to get contraception and whatever improvements to living we can to the 3rd world, since from what I've seen the only thing that seems to clearly make people have more children is general misery/poverty and if they live better lives, they will have less children.
Apologies, I didn't really expand upon this point. This was more a reflection upon a culmination of problems caused by people denying science. Problems like global warming.
It's like the phrase "you'll never find an atheist in a foxhole." Ignoring the obvious religious implications, it's more to do with looking for hope when it's too late. These people were of the mind that they wouldn't get COVID because of some bullshit they'd read, and then suddenly had the strongest piece of evidence to prove them wrong, and rapidly changed their tune. You can see it on /r/leopardsatemyface and various other related subreddits where people seem to get off on people suffering the consequences of poor decision making.
That isn't to say I think any of them deserve this. We can talk about critical thinking until the cows come home, but to be honest, it isn't necessarily everybody's strong suit and this trait shouldn't be treated as a failure on their part, but as a crime by the people who would manipulate these individuals.
I think the doctor in the article has the best response with her last question, however:
If you are going to take something on blind faith, you should at least ask somebody who is both qualified and trustworthy, but then the issue comes when individuals arbitrarily choose who meets these criteria. The issue is, as far as I can tell, the sorts of people who aren't getting this vaccine are also the sorts who don't go to a doctor until something happens, so they're also unlikely to go just to have a discussion about getting a vaccine they already feel is unnecessary.
If they want to grasp at straws after they're diagnosed with COVID-19 and ask for the vaccine right then, then yeah, not only is it way too late (since vaccines only work before you get whatever they protect against, and they take a decent amount of time to become fully active), but why ask for the vaccine at all? Not only is it massively hypocritical, but they deserve to reap what they sow.
This thing has killed millions of people across the world, and if they thought that it was no big deal, then their suffering should be no big deal.
We spend years educating people. We have access to the sum total of humanity's knowledge on supercomputers in our pockets, etc.
If you are an adult, some of the basic tools to navigate daily life is the ability to think critically, to separate facts from opinions, and to weigh how much to trust a research source. If you've failed to get those skills, then you are in danger, and you should get them now.
No. People do not deserve to die because of their beliefs no matter how misguided those beliefs are. That is quite frankly an horrible position to take. The price for stupidity should be mitigated by society as much as possible. Not only is n the case of Covid but just as a general principle. Next time I might be the stupid one and if possible I'd like it if the consequences of my stupidity wasn't a possible death sentence.
This would be an easier answer if deniers harmed only themselves. Surely you would agree that if anyone has to suffer the consequences of COVID, it would be preferable for it not to be the careful, the considerate, and the rational rather than the reckless, the selfish, and the stupid. There are vulnerabilities in each category, but when the latter group is actively making life more dangerous for the former, can't you see apportioning sympathy and resources accordingly? I may not wish death on those responsible for killing our loved ones, but when the champagne of their ignorance (benefits they were enjoying such as cheap air travel and wedding venues) turns to piss, I'm not going to rush to suck it out of their mouths.
I agree with you very much in advocating for a society that mitigates my own stupidity. No, these people don't deserve to die, but I understand the anger of those who suffer after doing everything right.
Not from a societal point of view. On a personal level of course if I got to choose I'd be picking based on my subjective preferences (it would be impossible not to). But as a society I think it would be hard/impossible to agree on an objective measure for those criteria. Eg. who is being reckless vs who is being just stupid?
In this case there is a very clear objective criteria:
If one is capable of getting the vaccinne, they get it. If they aren't for any reason other than "My immune system is comprimised," they are ignorant, and their ignorance is making the vaccinne less effective and actively killing people.
I have 0 sympathy for issues that are so fundementally basic. I don't wish ill will on them per se, but they also get pushed to the back of the line for sympathy.
I said something like that once and I soon regretted it a lot. You might want to read through that thread and comment. (Maybe the comment first.) It won't make you more sympathetic to anti-vaxxers but it did make me genuinely regret saying right wingers disproportionately dying from COVID is technically a positive.
I completely missed this
I switch names every year, and last year I thought it would be funny to pick the most absurd name I could think of, to see if people treated me less seriously. Well done.
BTW, I think the exact quote might have been that we only learn by fucking up. E.g. poking a finger in the fire.
Being fucked up has a different connotation. E.g. physical or emotional scars.
This is the equivalent to saying "git gud, scrub."
Critical thinking isn't a skill to teach or learn, it is a practice that must be properly developed. The problem, as I see it, is many people come to many bad, and outright wrong conclusions through generally logical processes. The rest of us can't track the logic because we're missing a crucial element, but the issue is their methodology is flawed. I'd also go further and suggest a fair amount of it may be to do with the fact that about 10% of the population might suffer with oppositional defiant disorder.
I guess my point here is, you haven't said anything that demonstrates people deserve to die for thinking differently. I would say they deserve help in correcting their thinking.