Cody is quite apt at explaining the left's perpetual frustration with the Democratic party. In it, he details just how utterly important voting Trump out is, but also how frustrating it is to only...
Cody is quite apt at explaining the left's perpetual frustration with the Democratic party. In it, he details just how utterly important voting Trump out is, but also how frustrating it is to only have Biden as that choice.
Yea, i found that post after the fact too... I'm convinced that all the "leftists" who refuse to vote for Biden are really just internet trolls, of the same vein that worked to elect Trump. Every...
Yea, i found that post after the fact too...
I'm convinced that all the "leftists" who refuse to vote for Biden are really just internet trolls, of the same vein that worked to elect Trump. Every leftist I know is voting straight-ticket D, despite being very pissed off about it. Because the alternative, on average, is untimely death.
If you want to watch the system burn, at least vote 3rd party instead of not voting. At a bare minimum, that will signal to the powers that be that you're at least potentially willing to vote for them, instead of writing you off as yet-another non-voter. In this election...you're still kind of terrible doing this...but still preferrable to "boycotting" voting.
Not saying that I wouldn't if I could vote in the US, but I wouldn't go to that voting booth smiling exactly. That said the horror of the situation is that a reactive liberal group can do...
Not saying that I wouldn't if I could vote in the US, but I wouldn't go to that voting booth smiling exactly. That said the horror of the situation is that a reactive liberal group can do incredible damage for your next election by further disenfranchising people who feel betrayed by them already, and then at the same time not understanding the lefts situation in the scenario and seeing it as people "coming to their senses" and missing any sense of humility towards these gunpoint-supporters. But as you said, what choices are there?
This scenario exists almost everywhere, no matter what election system exists. For us we have about 7 viable parties to vote for that form coalitions to win the parliament, that in turn means that at times smaller parties have a heard time getting their voices heard AND the argument "going along is better than breaking it" has been used as a mantra of support for inactivity. (I've always said that voting here is like going to get a gangrenous leg sawed off - its better than dying but don't expect me to celebrate the occasion)
Plus I know its representative democracy, but still - there is a sense that the point is to vote for what you want, not what you despise the least...
That said, again, if I where in your shoes I would vote for that smiling antediluvian PR-poster-cutout-of-a-person Biden too... I'd rather get kicked in the nuts than shivved in the neck as it where.
I still maintain that any system that needs to pick one person to represent the interests and hopes of a multi-lingual, multi-religious, multi-ethnic nation of 330 Million people is going to end...
Exemplary
Plus I know its representative democracy, but still - there is a sense that the point is to vote for what you want, not what you despise the least...
I still maintain that any system that needs to pick one person to represent the interests and hopes of a multi-lingual, multi-religious, multi-ethnic nation of 330 Million people is going to end up picking someone who sucks an disappoints a large swathe of them.
Our frustrations with choice with our politicians are just us embodying our frustrations of having to live in a plural society.
There are valid complaints about the political system being structurally compromised to favor the interests of rich, corporate interests. But those can’t really be hit at the level of complaining about how compelling or personally virtuous the politicians are. It needs to be attacked at a structural level, but those don’t have easy scapegoats that we can stan or hate on.
Fair point. Although in my specific case I live in a tiny shithole country and we don't pick a president (we don't even have one) but a selection of parties. The issue isn't the charm of the...
Fair point. Although in my specific case I live in a tiny shithole country and we don't pick a president (we don't even have one) but a selection of parties. The issue isn't the charm of the politicians but the effects they have, its hard to get engaged after a few mandate periods, or a few flips through a history book, when you realize that there is always a small clique that seems to get out on top like curdles of rancid milk in a hot cup of coffee, no matter what the flavour of the coffee.
But in the interest of time, I tend to enjoy to talk crap about them individually as shorthand. Our current primeminister for example simply doesn't have a personality. The man is so devoid of anything that would even resemble charisma that he's slowly starting to collapse in on himself and now looks like an half emptied potato sack with hair, trying to smile for a camera - for example.
It's ok, they tend to be rich after a mandate period and if things go south they often pick up nice corporate gigs afterwards, they'll be fine.
From a historical standpoint, my country's entire political history has had two key ingredients when things change - popular action, and extra-parliamentary pressure on the parliament itself. From good to bad, all changes have happened through one of those means. If that is some money changing hands or Google demanding tax breaks at a small unscheduled meeting or through popular movements and direct public actions like a large group of LGBT-people calling in sick in "the gay" and occupying the social welfare office to stop the classification of homosexuality as an illness - is just two sides of the same coin. This put pressure on the parties, gets them out of the churn of business-as-usualism and forces action and conflict within the parliament - breaking them out of humdrum of chumming with the colleagues they see every day and seeing people from a distance - and sets them in motion to fulfill, not the changes they where forced to enact, but trying to further the momentum they saw existed.
It stirs the cup, pushing the time further or closer to when the rancid old milk rises to the top of the coffee.
The individual parties and politicians are nothing but maintainers and salesmen, their jobs are to get reelected. Not as some sort of malicious active intent but a defacto pressure they need to relate to forcing them in to that used-car-salesman existence. At best they can maintain with momentum or intent, at best they can see where the wind blows and pitch their wagons behind a certain brand of idea that will sell hard come next season.
Thats why in the US, watching BLM is an amazing thing - because that will have an effect. No matter WHAT kind of politician they all now need to relate to it. In agreement, in disagreement or trying to dodge the issue.
The representative democratic ideal can't collapse in to becoming the fictitious election of a hero vs a villain. A four year active maintainer and politruk. Neither can it be a constant fight in the streets, the maintainer - the janitors need to exist. But the ballot box alone wont bless us.
After a very slight bit of poking, I’ve noticed a shocking number of them are either not of voting age anyway or aren’t even American. I think many of the others who do get really incensed about...
I'm convinced that all the "leftists" who refuse to vote for Biden are really just internet trolls
After a very slight bit of poking, I’ve noticed a shocking number of them are either not of voting age anyway or aren’t even American. I think many of the others who do get really incensed about this stuff are a tiny fraction of voters who were always marginal anyway and, consequently, we’re never really counted on or viewed as “gettable” by most politicians. They could probably swing a local race, but they’re basically inconsequential at statewide or national runs, not any more significant than rounding and counting errors.
It really drives home how unrepresentative any social media is. The volume makes it seem like you must be getting some cross-section of humanity but really not at all. Their biggest impact is by the megaphone they have how they have an ability to signal boost juicy propaganda. But Biden is fairly conventional and doesn’t really have many personal issues to dig into.
I don't think it's really fair to call us all trolls. [EDIT: My bad, wrong user] I decided not to vote in 2016 but this time I ended up voting for La Riva with some Ds downballot. I believe in a...
Exemplary
I don't think it's really fair to call us all trolls. [EDIT: My bad, wrong user] I decided not to vote in 2016 but this time I ended up voting for La Riva with some Ds downballot. I believe in a certain level of lesser evilism but could not justify a Biden vote to myself. I couldn't live with it.
The left always falls into line and sends the message that dems will get our vote no matter what. Even if someone is all in on electoral politics, I don't think voting Biden makes all that much sense (even if I don't blame someone for doing it). If we think electoral politics are worth anything and the left wants to do anything that matters within them, we need to actually be a group that votes behind our interests. Otherwise the democrats have no incentive to do anything but court voters even further right.
Honestly I really can't blame anyone if they don't vote, vote Biden, or if they vote third party.
I think you (and @vord) faced some friendly fire here that you don't deserve. I feel in these types of discussions we tend to focus on a very narrow, specific type of voter in our tribe and...
Exemplary
I think you (and @vord) faced some friendly fire here that you don't deserve. I feel in these types of discussions we tend to focus on a very narrow, specific type of voter in our tribe and attribute far more responsibility to them than is fair, all while ignoring the much larger influence and sins of those outside of our circles.
The problem of Trump, from my perspective at least, doesn't lie with voters like you. We zoom in on thin margins as if this is the case, but to me the problem of Trump is that enough of America openly supported him to even bring those margins that close in the first place. We wring our hands over a narrow profile of voter and end up missing the giant racist forest for the disillusioned leftist trees. It's all too easy for us to forget that nearly 63 million Americans chose to vote for him in 2016.
I think voting your conscience is very much essential to democracy, and that's why his election was so alarming: it revealed the values of those 63 million. Even those who voted for him begrudgingly rather than enthusiastically showed that, even with everything we knew about him up to that point, they still weren't willing to turn away. They chose his name over all others -- including no one. That means something, and I think if we are looking for who deserves blame and scorn for the situation we are now in, then I believe the lion's share should be reserved for them.
I can't find it in my heart to begrudge you your decision for this election. You're choosing to vote in an informed and principled way. That is what democracy asks of us, and that is what voting should be like. I think we lose sight of that in America because our democracy could very much use some significant bugfixes. The current specifics of our execution of democracy turn voting into a much larger and more complicated strategic game, rather than a simple individual selection of our ideal candidates. There is definitely a pragmatic argument to be made for playing that game, but there's also something to be said for wanting to execute the ideal of having your vote best represent what you believe. I believe you did the latter, and I don't think you should be faulted for that.
Your view isn't popular this election, but I for one appreciate your ideals. Prior to Trump, and in general, my view is that the lesser of two evils means the system is broken, full stop....
Your view isn't popular this election, but I for one appreciate your ideals.
Prior to Trump, and in general, my view is that the lesser of two evils means the system is broken, full stop.
Compromises, sure, perfection isn't possible, but two bought and paid for politicians who don't represent the population at large isn't a choice.
This time around one evil is so egregious that you almost have to vote for the other guy.
But people who choose not to aren't doing anything wrong. That's their choice in a democracy. I think all of the hate at non biden voters is misplaced and ultimately pointless. If there's an enemy, it's not them.
By not voting, it's really just a vote for lesser evilism to continue as-is. If you don't like the status quo, abstaining isn't going to change it. Vote for the third parties if you don't like the...
By not voting, it's really just a vote for lesser evilism to continue as-is. If you don't like the status quo, abstaining isn't going to change it.
Vote for the third parties if you don't like the duopoly. That's where I was in 2016, and I stand by it. I've voted Biden for 2020, but you can bet I'll be back to 3rd party 2024 if genuine change doesn't happen.
One argument against that approach might be that if you won't vote for them, perhaps they don't have any other option to get votes except to move centre/right? Democrats wouldn't need to play...
Otherwise the democrats have no incentive to do anything but court voters even further right.
One argument against that approach might be that if you won't vote for them, perhaps they don't have any other option to get votes except to move centre/right? Democrats wouldn't need to play towards the centre if they could be sure of more support from the further left.
Personally I tend to think that people who choose third party or worse, not to vote, in FPTP elections might want to consider again the real-world outcomes of such a bad electoral system. In FPTP it's as much about who you don't want to win as who you actually like, and that goes double when the system has degraded to being two-party, which it almost always will do given enough time (and long since has in the US and UK).
If Trump is the worst outcome you should vote against Trump. It doesn't matter who you're voting for at that point, it's just the candidate most likely to avoid the worst outcome. Under a more reprasentative system you can, and should, vote for who you like, but in FPTP you should approach voting tactically.
Voting for a candidate who stands for your principles (assuming they lie outside the two options available) is a luxury your electoral system does not realistically afford you.
I agree, in Germany we say ‚not voting is a vote for the far right‘. I think In the US, as much as it sucks, voting third party or not voting effectively is the same as voting for trump. You are...
I agree, in Germany we say ‚not voting is a vote for the far right‘.
I think In the US, as much as it sucks, voting third party or not voting effectively is the same as voting for trump. You are literally throwing your vote away because your system is just not built for a third party. If I was in the US there’d be nothing that could possibly keep me from voting democrats. The alternative is literally choosing a fascist
I honestly agree....#BegrudinglyBiden. Voting is still very important. If you don't like the choices presented by the duopoly, vote third party. Encourage non-voters to do so as well. If half of...
I believe in a certain level of lesser evilism but could not justify a Biden vote to myself. I couldn't live with it.
I honestly agree....#BegrudinglyBiden. Voting is still very important. If you don't like the choices presented by the duopoly, vote third party. Encourage non-voters to do so as well. If half of the non-voters voted Green party instead of not voting, we'd have a Green president. And even if that didn't happen...if the Green or Libertarian party hit 15% of the popular vote on the regular, you can bet the D and R parties might actually start adopting some of their platforms to stop the shift.
I don't fault people for not voting if they're completely disconnected or don't have the means in this unjust setup we have...but I do have a problem with people who are connected making a choice not to vote (especially with vote-by-mail being a thing now), and doubly so if they're telling others not to vote.
This point in particular is why I posted the video... To paraphrase: Centerist Democrats blame progressives if Biden (or any other Democrat) loses. If Biden wins, they'll also yell at progressives...
you are showing that it is never worth the Democrats time to appeal to the left.
Centerist Democrats blame progressives if Biden (or any other Democrat) loses.
If Biden wins, they'll also yell at progressives for daring to criticize Biden to push them to the left.
Further, they'll use Biden's victory as further evidence that "Centerism works! Be happy the system is back to normal!"
This, of course, ignores that electing Biden is basically a re-wind to 2012, leaving the system that led to Trump to begin with in place.
I'm giving Democrats the shot in 2020. Listen to progressives or watch me jump ship again in 2024 and then continue to hear how Democrats both desperately need my vote but also shouldn't listen to me at all.
(The following is not directed at you, but rather anyone who's spoiling their vote in 2020) The alternative isn't "fixing the system". The alternative is Trump. There's nothing I can add to what...
This, of course, ignores that electing Biden is basically a re-wind to 2012, leaving the system that led to Trump to begin with in place.
(The following is not directed at you, but rather anyone who's spoiling their vote in 2020)
The alternative isn't "fixing the system". The alternative is Trump.
There's nothing I can add to what @dubteedub said. The winner of the election is either Trump or Biden. There is no third party candidate. There is no "one more vote to a spoiler candidate will surely change the winner's mind". There is no fixing the system by spoiling your ballot.
There is only Trump and Biden. You guys spent the entire year leading up to the election deciding who would be the democratic nominee. That is where you get to choose. You could have had Warren, hell you could have had Sanders. You didn't. You won't, now. That ship has sailed.
You either get Biden or Trump. Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump.
If you're not happy with the system, you can prepare for the next elections as of today if you want. Campaign for your next candidate. Hell, prepare an armed revolution if you think it's come to that. But wasting your vote because you're grumpy you don't have your ideal candidate is an insult to the rest of the world who doesn't get a fucking say in this, despite the US having so much influence on it.
If you couldn't be arsed to vote Hillary in 2016, you're part of the reason why I have to deal with more right-wing extremists here in Europe, because your president and country have so much god damn influence. I don't get a say in it, and yet, you get a say in essentially who shows up at the ballot. You're part of the reason why I had to vote against Le Pen in 2017. Not the whole reason, but certainly part of it.
I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. While I agree getting Trump out is priority #1, the last ~40 years has shown that stepping in line with the two-party duopoly generally doesn't...
I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. While I agree getting Trump out is priority #1, the last ~40 years has shown that stepping in line with the two-party duopoly generally doesn't yield any more substantial results than not.
So I think there are a few main buckets of voters:
D/R consistent voters.... the 99% of active voters.
D/R inconsistent voters... mostly apathetic, but if there's a candidate that energizes them (see: Trump and Obama), they'll turn out
Third party voters... They are unhappy with both D and R, and generally won't vote for them unless the situation is dire (this is me).
Non-voters. Their reasons are different, but the outcome is the same: they are 100% ignored.
Don't shame and blame third-party voters. At least they are turning out to vote. Convince them to join your party with policy changes, and not rhetoric about why they're to blame for election losses.
Encourage non-voters to vote, even if they vote third party and not your candidate. Because it's a good first step out of non-voting entirely, and there's substantial benefits to be had if 3rd parties start gaining traction.
In normal times yeah I'd hugely agree with you. But today, given everything at stake, I'm sorry, I think third party voters who would knowingly not vote to end the fucking nightmare are complicit,...
Don't shame and blame third-party voters. At least they are turning out to vote.
In normal times yeah I'd hugely agree with you. But today, given everything at stake, I'm sorry, I think third party voters who would knowingly not vote to end the fucking nightmare are complicit, even moreso than apathetic voters.
As someone who detests the two party system, I admire your commitment to abstaining from a D/R vote until it matches your sensibilities. But it seems like there's some inconsistency between your...
As someone who detests the two party system, I admire your commitment to abstaining from a D/R vote until it matches your sensibilities.
But it seems like there's some inconsistency between your ideal of not contributing to the duopoly with your vote, and not using your vote to most reliably unseat a president who has fueled political polarization like never before.
You may disagree, but I would argue that taking the most direct path to removing Trump with a D vote actually serves your interests more this election, as you stand to lose much more with Trump than you stand to gain by adding your vote to a third party statistic. From an anti-duopoly perspective.
Not trying to shame you, just curious how you reconcile that.
My reconciliation is to do the best I can with what I've got: Registered Democrat to vote progressives in primaries Non-D/R votes in lower-level elections where Republicans are 100% non-viable, to...
My reconciliation is to do the best I can with what I've got:
Registered Democrat to vote progressives in primaries
Non-D/R votes in lower-level elections where Republicans are 100% non-viable, to the point many Democrats run unopposed. An independent party in Philadelphia managed to oust a Republican from city council by siphoning a few votes from Democrats.
Democrat votes at State level, as PA at State level needs as many Democrats as they can to overcome the Republican gerrymandering. Will flip to a third-party anytime there isn't an opposing R.
Democrat for national Senate (again, PA problems)
Green for national House (Republicans non-viable in my House district)
Green for President, unless the situation is as dire as it is today.
I'm on board for unseating Trump. This year was straight-ticket Democrat. All of my third-party rhetoric this year is directed purely at people who otherwise would not vote at all.
And finally, I would like to point out...It wasn't the 3rd party voters that gave PA to Trump in 2016. It might look that way on paper, given Green and Libertarian each had enough votes they could have swayed. The dissatisfied Democrats may have voted Green, and the dissatisfied Republicans may have voted Libertarian. But if nobody voted third party and only went with one of the big two...Trump would have won by a much larger margin.
The reason Trump won is because he inspired the most PA Republican turnout in history, and Hillary was as inspiring as John Kerry circa 2004. Remember John Kerry? Yea, neither does anybody else.
If the decision comes down to abstaining from voting or voting third party, I'll encourage 3rd party every time. Because maybe next time they'll come around. You're preaching to the choir WRT...
If the decision comes down to abstaining from voting or voting third party, I'll encourage 3rd party every time. Because maybe next time they'll come around.
You're preaching to the choir WRT voting Trump out. But Biden (and the rest of the moderates) are just as willing to shift rightward as leftward, and electing a weather vane isn't exactly appealing.
I'm going to address this, and we'll note up front that this is a personal anecdote for my experience in the city I grew up in and the city I live in now. I've been knocking on doors and calling...
I absolutely do blame anyone that did not vote Hillary in 2016 and refuse to vote Biden in 2020. I don't know how you can just bury your head in the sand when you can see the consequences of Trump being elected and how much worse things will be if he is re-elected.
I'm going to address this, and we'll note up front that this is a personal anecdote for my experience in the city I grew up in and the city I live in now. I've been knocking on doors and calling people about the election since January because Ohio is a swing state. Almost everyone I've talked to who said they are eligible to vote but aren't voting are low income black and hispanic voters. They don't have their head in the sand. They see what's going on every day. And you know what? For them its the same shit that was happening when Obama was president. Tamir Rice was shot by the police and they found it as an "acceptable use of force". We've still got people getting arrested on bullshit drug charges and shocker they're almost all black. They watched both parties sell out our city as our economies collapsed. They don't care who is in charge because no one ever does jack shit to help them. To pivot away from Cleveland, Boston is almost entirely Democrats at every single level. Yet we have rampant issues with wealth inequality, gentrification, racism, police violence. Every year we get another article about a black writer leaving Boston and moving to the South and feeling like they deal with less racism in the south than in Boston. Do I agree with these people that they shouldn't vote? I dunno, I cast my ballot for Joe, but I didn't go through even 1/8th of the shit they did. Every one of those conversations made it harder to vote for him though, hearing the pain in their voices and in their eyes as they talk about how both parties fuck them, just one of them does it to their face while one does it behind their backs pretending to be their friend. But saying their head in the sand is just insulting. I try to stay as politically informed as possible, and they all sure as hell know the results of both parties better than me.
The rhetoric about not voting Biden being a privileged decision is so frustrating and dismissive. I'm being targeted by Trump and the environment he has taken advantage of and amplified too....
The rhetoric about not voting Biden being a privileged decision is so frustrating and dismissive. I'm being targeted by Trump and the environment he has taken advantage of and amplified too. There's more oppressed people than me, of course, but that's such a worthless game to play. I'm not a neutral outsider, and having my own oppression thrown back at me as if it's something I don't understand because it doesn't make me support the Democratic party is just painful.
OK I'm dropping out of this. Looking at the other comments you clearly don't have any interest in listening. Cool. Hop on a plane and fly to Cleveland. I'll drive you around and you can make your...
OK I'm dropping out of this. Looking at the other comments you clearly don't have any interest in listening.
Like this is not hard at all.
Cool. Hop on a plane and fly to Cleveland. I'll drive you around and you can make your points. Since its not hard at all I'm sure you'll have no problem changing their minds and you'll be able to wear the badge of pride that you managed to do what hundreds of activists couldn't do and turned Ohio blue.
Ah, ok. That point I will take much less offense to :) (edit) but I am telling you that I do not believe that it will be enough to matter. Again, this is only in my experience in East Cleveland...
Ah, ok. That point I will take much less offense to :) (edit) but I'm telling you that that will not matter in the slightest but I am telling you that I do not believe that it will be enough to matter.
Again, this is only in my experience in East Cleveland and Roxybury/Dorchester/Allston/Brighton in Boston. But in my experience there is negative trust. When Boston BLM held a rally that gathered hundreds to march in Boston, it started in the mostly-minority neighborhood of Roxbury. There was a counter-parade of black locals screaming at everyone passing by "Go home. You don't actually care about black lives. You never come here. You don't care about anyone here. Do your PR stunt and go home and forget we exist like you always do." The only reason I can sometimes get people to listen to me is that I grew up in the area and still have friends in the area that can vouch for me. If you aren't local then they don't give a shit what you have to say because you don't know their struggle. The differences between Joe and Trump barely register because they've numbed themselves after decades of disappointment. I know, like you know, that Trump and Biden are leagues apart. I'm telling you that level of difference is hard to get to register on their radar. Obama "urging" things and the FBI putting out mandates does not mean jack shit because it did not change their lived experience. If I am being totally realistic, I doubt there is anything Joe Biden or any Democrat could do to earn these votes because they don't trust any politician not to fuck them over as soon as it is convenient. The only way you're going to convince these people the democrats are different is for them to actually enact large sweeping policy changes that materially impact these people's day-to-day lives. Things on a scale that I don't believe Biden will deliver on. And each time you do convince one of these people to vote and things don't change, you've made the battle that much harder for yourself next time because they now trust Democrats less and trust you less.
I personally know a few people who are very liberal who are basically refusing to vote for Biden at this point and I can't wrap my head around that. One of them lives in NY, so in a sense they can...
I personally know a few people who are very liberal who are basically refusing to vote for Biden at this point and I can't wrap my head around that. One of them lives in NY, so in a sense they can afford not to since Biden will likely take that state no matter what. But another lives in Virginia, where it's more likely to matter. If it were just "I don't like Biden, I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils, I'm out" and left at that I'd be okay with it. But instead they bash Biden constantly, which in my view only helps Trump. It's certainly not pushing the party further left like they claim to be interested in.
And don't get me wrong, I don't particularly care for Biden as a politician. He's too centrist, too old guard, and basically not at all where I think the Democrats should be heading. I totally agree with the reasons why the people I know dislike Biden. But in 2020 where realistically it's either him or Trump, I'd have to be brain dead to ever consider not voting for Biden.
I made this prediction in 2017, and I think it's looking good for it: Your current politics, if you play your cards right, are headed towards a more European model which is less right-shifted. I...
He's too centrist, too old guard, and basically not at all where I think the Democrats should be heading.
I made this prediction in 2017, and I think it's looking good for it:
Your current politics, if you play your cards right, are headed towards a more European model which is less right-shifted. I foresee a split of the democratic party in the coming decade or so, into Biden-like democrats and AOC/Sanders-like progressives. Democrats would become right-wing and the GOP would become an extreme-right, fringe party.
So you shouldn't be thinking in terms of where you want democrats to be heading, but rather, where you want right-wing politics to be heading. Progressives are gaining steam no matter what, so as the democratic party shifts center-right as they acquire more ex-republicans, progressives benefit from this as the democratic party sheds its left-most wing.
This is honestly a win-win scenario: Republicans are happy, Democrats are happy, Progressives are happy. The only unhappy ones are the GOP and extreme-right/pro-populists and we don't fucking need that.
In that light, Biden is a fantastic candidate for running a center-right flavour of politics. But re-electing Trump is going a very fucking different route than this.
Cody is quite apt at explaining the left's perpetual frustration with the Democratic party. In it, he details just how utterly important voting Trump out is, but also how frustrating it is to only have Biden as that choice.
For those who don't want to commit fully to a 30+ minute video, here's the part that really hit home for me (till the 25:16 marker for this particular point).
Yea, i found that post after the fact too...
I'm convinced that all the "leftists" who refuse to vote for Biden are really just internet trolls, of the same vein that worked to elect Trump. Every leftist I know is voting straight-ticket D, despite being very pissed off about it. Because the alternative, on average, is untimely death.
If you want to watch the system burn, at least vote 3rd party instead of not voting. At a bare minimum, that will signal to the powers that be that you're at least potentially willing to vote for them, instead of writing you off as yet-another non-voter. In this election...you're still kind of terrible doing this...but still preferrable to "boycotting" voting.
Not saying that I wouldn't if I could vote in the US, but I wouldn't go to that voting booth smiling exactly. That said the horror of the situation is that a reactive liberal group can do incredible damage for your next election by further disenfranchising people who feel betrayed by them already, and then at the same time not understanding the lefts situation in the scenario and seeing it as people "coming to their senses" and missing any sense of humility towards these gunpoint-supporters. But as you said, what choices are there?
This scenario exists almost everywhere, no matter what election system exists. For us we have about 7 viable parties to vote for that form coalitions to win the parliament, that in turn means that at times smaller parties have a heard time getting their voices heard AND the argument "going along is better than breaking it" has been used as a mantra of support for inactivity. (I've always said that voting here is like going to get a gangrenous leg sawed off - its better than dying but don't expect me to celebrate the occasion)
Plus I know its representative democracy, but still - there is a sense that the point is to vote for what you want, not what you despise the least...
That said, again, if I where in your shoes I would vote for that smiling antediluvian PR-poster-cutout-of-a-person Biden too... I'd rather get kicked in the nuts than shivved in the neck as it where.
I still maintain that any system that needs to pick one person to represent the interests and hopes of a multi-lingual, multi-religious, multi-ethnic nation of 330 Million people is going to end up picking someone who sucks an disappoints a large swathe of them.
Our frustrations with choice with our politicians are just us embodying our frustrations of having to live in a plural society.
There are valid complaints about the political system being structurally compromised to favor the interests of rich, corporate interests. But those can’t really be hit at the level of complaining about how compelling or personally virtuous the politicians are. It needs to be attacked at a structural level, but those don’t have easy scapegoats that we can stan or hate on.
Fair point. Although in my specific case I live in a tiny shithole country and we don't pick a president (we don't even have one) but a selection of parties. The issue isn't the charm of the politicians but the effects they have, its hard to get engaged after a few mandate periods, or a few flips through a history book, when you realize that there is always a small clique that seems to get out on top like curdles of rancid milk in a hot cup of coffee, no matter what the flavour of the coffee.
But in the interest of time, I tend to enjoy to talk crap about them individually as shorthand. Our current primeminister for example simply doesn't have a personality. The man is so devoid of anything that would even resemble charisma that he's slowly starting to collapse in on himself and now looks like an half emptied potato sack with hair, trying to smile for a camera - for example.
It's ok, they tend to be rich after a mandate period and if things go south they often pick up nice corporate gigs afterwards, they'll be fine.
From a historical standpoint, my country's entire political history has had two key ingredients when things change - popular action, and extra-parliamentary pressure on the parliament itself. From good to bad, all changes have happened through one of those means. If that is some money changing hands or Google demanding tax breaks at a small unscheduled meeting or through popular movements and direct public actions like a large group of LGBT-people calling in sick in "the gay" and occupying the social welfare office to stop the classification of homosexuality as an illness - is just two sides of the same coin. This put pressure on the parties, gets them out of the churn of business-as-usualism and forces action and conflict within the parliament - breaking them out of humdrum of chumming with the colleagues they see every day and seeing people from a distance - and sets them in motion to fulfill, not the changes they where forced to enact, but trying to further the momentum they saw existed.
It stirs the cup, pushing the time further or closer to when the rancid old milk rises to the top of the coffee.
The individual parties and politicians are nothing but maintainers and salesmen, their jobs are to get reelected. Not as some sort of malicious active intent but a defacto pressure they need to relate to forcing them in to that used-car-salesman existence. At best they can maintain with momentum or intent, at best they can see where the wind blows and pitch their wagons behind a certain brand of idea that will sell hard come next season.
Thats why in the US, watching BLM is an amazing thing - because that will have an effect. No matter WHAT kind of politician they all now need to relate to it. In agreement, in disagreement or trying to dodge the issue.
The representative democratic ideal can't collapse in to becoming the fictitious election of a hero vs a villain. A four year active maintainer and politruk. Neither can it be a constant fight in the streets, the maintainer - the janitors need to exist. But the ballot box alone wont bless us.
After a very slight bit of poking, I’ve noticed a shocking number of them are either not of voting age anyway or aren’t even American. I think many of the others who do get really incensed about this stuff are a tiny fraction of voters who were always marginal anyway and, consequently, we’re never really counted on or viewed as “gettable” by most politicians. They could probably swing a local race, but they’re basically inconsequential at statewide or national runs, not any more significant than rounding and counting errors.
It really drives home how unrepresentative any social media is. The volume makes it seem like you must be getting some cross-section of humanity but really not at all. Their biggest impact is by the megaphone they have how they have an ability to signal boost juicy propaganda. But Biden is fairly conventional and doesn’t really have many personal issues to dig into.
I don't think it's really fair to call us all trolls. [EDIT: My bad, wrong user] I decided not to vote in 2016 but this time I ended up voting for La Riva with some Ds downballot. I believe in a certain level of lesser evilism but could not justify a Biden vote to myself. I couldn't live with it.
The left always falls into line and sends the message that dems will get our vote no matter what. Even if someone is all in on electoral politics, I don't think voting Biden makes all that much sense (even if I don't blame someone for doing it). If we think electoral politics are worth anything and the left wants to do anything that matters within them, we need to actually be a group that votes behind our interests. Otherwise the democrats have no incentive to do anything but court voters even further right.
Honestly I really can't blame anyone if they don't vote, vote Biden, or if they vote third party.
I think you (and @vord) faced some friendly fire here that you don't deserve. I feel in these types of discussions we tend to focus on a very narrow, specific type of voter in our tribe and attribute far more responsibility to them than is fair, all while ignoring the much larger influence and sins of those outside of our circles.
The problem of Trump, from my perspective at least, doesn't lie with voters like you. We zoom in on thin margins as if this is the case, but to me the problem of Trump is that enough of America openly supported him to even bring those margins that close in the first place. We wring our hands over a narrow profile of voter and end up missing the giant racist forest for the disillusioned leftist trees. It's all too easy for us to forget that nearly 63 million Americans chose to vote for him in 2016.
I think voting your conscience is very much essential to democracy, and that's why his election was so alarming: it revealed the values of those 63 million. Even those who voted for him begrudgingly rather than enthusiastically showed that, even with everything we knew about him up to that point, they still weren't willing to turn away. They chose his name over all others -- including no one. That means something, and I think if we are looking for who deserves blame and scorn for the situation we are now in, then I believe the lion's share should be reserved for them.
I can't find it in my heart to begrudge you your decision for this election. You're choosing to vote in an informed and principled way. That is what democracy asks of us, and that is what voting should be like. I think we lose sight of that in America because our democracy could very much use some significant bugfixes. The current specifics of our execution of democracy turn voting into a much larger and more complicated strategic game, rather than a simple individual selection of our ideal candidates. There is definitely a pragmatic argument to be made for playing that game, but there's also something to be said for wanting to execute the ideal of having your vote best represent what you believe. I believe you did the latter, and I don't think you should be faulted for that.
Your view isn't popular this election, but I for one appreciate your ideals.
Prior to Trump, and in general, my view is that the lesser of two evils means the system is broken, full stop.
Compromises, sure, perfection isn't possible, but two bought and paid for politicians who don't represent the population at large isn't a choice.
This time around one evil is so egregious that you almost have to vote for the other guy.
But people who choose not to aren't doing anything wrong. That's their choice in a democracy. I think all of the hate at non biden voters is misplaced and ultimately pointless. If there's an enemy, it's not them.
By not voting, it's really just a vote for lesser evilism to continue as-is. If you don't like the status quo, abstaining isn't going to change it.
Vote for the third parties if you don't like the duopoly. That's where I was in 2016, and I stand by it. I've voted Biden for 2020, but you can bet I'll be back to 3rd party 2024 if genuine change doesn't happen.
One argument against that approach might be that if you won't vote for them, perhaps they don't have any other option to get votes except to move centre/right? Democrats wouldn't need to play towards the centre if they could be sure of more support from the further left.
Personally I tend to think that people who choose third party or worse, not to vote, in FPTP elections might want to consider again the real-world outcomes of such a bad electoral system. In FPTP it's as much about who you don't want to win as who you actually like, and that goes double when the system has degraded to being two-party, which it almost always will do given enough time (and long since has in the US and UK).
If Trump is the worst outcome you should vote against Trump. It doesn't matter who you're voting for at that point, it's just the candidate most likely to avoid the worst outcome. Under a more reprasentative system you can, and should, vote for who you like, but in FPTP you should approach voting tactically.
Voting for a candidate who stands for your principles (assuming they lie outside the two options available) is a luxury your electoral system does not realistically afford you.
I agree, in Germany we say ‚not voting is a vote for the far right‘.
I think In the US, as much as it sucks, voting third party or not voting effectively is the same as voting for trump. You are literally throwing your vote away because your system is just not built for a third party. If I was in the US there’d be nothing that could possibly keep me from voting democrats. The alternative is literally choosing a fascist
I honestly agree....#BegrudinglyBiden. Voting is still very important. If you don't like the choices presented by the duopoly, vote third party. Encourage non-voters to do so as well. If half of the non-voters voted Green party instead of not voting, we'd have a Green president. And even if that didn't happen...if the Green or Libertarian party hit 15% of the popular vote on the regular, you can bet the D and R parties might actually start adopting some of their platforms to stop the shift.
I don't fault people for not voting if they're completely disconnected or don't have the means in this unjust setup we have...but I do have a problem with people who are connected making a choice not to vote (especially with vote-by-mail being a thing now), and doubly so if they're telling others not to vote.
This point in particular is why I posted the video...
To paraphrase:
This, of course, ignores that electing Biden is basically a re-wind to 2012, leaving the system that led to Trump to begin with in place.
I'm giving Democrats the shot in 2020. Listen to progressives or watch me jump ship again in 2024 and then continue to hear how Democrats both desperately need my vote but also shouldn't listen to me at all.
(The following is not directed at you, but rather anyone who's spoiling their vote in 2020)
The alternative isn't "fixing the system". The alternative is Trump.
There's nothing I can add to what @dubteedub said. The winner of the election is either Trump or Biden. There is no third party candidate. There is no "one more vote to a spoiler candidate will surely change the winner's mind". There is no fixing the system by spoiling your ballot.
There is only Trump and Biden. You guys spent the entire year leading up to the election deciding who would be the democratic nominee. That is where you get to choose. You could have had Warren, hell you could have had Sanders. You didn't. You won't, now. That ship has sailed.
You either get Biden or Trump. Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump.
If you're not happy with the system, you can prepare for the next elections as of today if you want. Campaign for your next candidate. Hell, prepare an armed revolution if you think it's come to that. But wasting your vote because you're grumpy you don't have your ideal candidate is an insult to the rest of the world who doesn't get a fucking say in this, despite the US having so much influence on it.
If you couldn't be arsed to vote Hillary in 2016, you're part of the reason why I have to deal with more right-wing extremists here in Europe, because your president and country have so much god damn influence. I don't get a say in it, and yet, you get a say in essentially who shows up at the ballot. You're part of the reason why I had to vote against Le Pen in 2017. Not the whole reason, but certainly part of it.
I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. While I agree getting Trump out is priority #1, the last ~40 years has shown that stepping in line with the two-party duopoly generally doesn't yield any more substantial results than not.
So I think there are a few main buckets of voters:
Don't shame and blame third-party voters. At least they are turning out to vote. Convince them to join your party with policy changes, and not rhetoric about why they're to blame for election losses.
Encourage non-voters to vote, even if they vote third party and not your candidate. Because it's a good first step out of non-voting entirely, and there's substantial benefits to be had if 3rd parties start gaining traction.
In normal times yeah I'd hugely agree with you. But today, given everything at stake, I'm sorry, I think third party voters who would knowingly not vote to end the fucking nightmare are complicit, even moreso than apathetic voters.
Priorities, man.
As someone who detests the two party system, I admire your commitment to abstaining from a D/R vote until it matches your sensibilities.
But it seems like there's some inconsistency between your ideal of not contributing to the duopoly with your vote, and not using your vote to most reliably unseat a president who has fueled political polarization like never before.
You may disagree, but I would argue that taking the most direct path to removing Trump with a D vote actually serves your interests more this election, as you stand to lose much more with Trump than you stand to gain by adding your vote to a third party statistic. From an anti-duopoly perspective.
Not trying to shame you, just curious how you reconcile that.
My reconciliation is to do the best I can with what I've got:
I'm on board for unseating Trump. This year was straight-ticket Democrat. All of my third-party rhetoric this year is directed purely at people who otherwise would not vote at all.
And finally, I would like to point out...It wasn't the 3rd party voters that gave PA to Trump in 2016. It might look that way on paper, given Green and Libertarian each had enough votes they could have swayed. The dissatisfied Democrats may have voted Green, and the dissatisfied Republicans may have voted Libertarian. But if nobody voted third party and only went with one of the big two...Trump would have won by a much larger margin.
The reason Trump won is because he inspired the most PA Republican turnout in history, and Hillary was as inspiring as John Kerry circa 2004. Remember John Kerry? Yea, neither does anybody else.
If the decision comes down to abstaining from voting or voting third party, I'll encourage 3rd party every time. Because maybe next time they'll come around.
You're preaching to the choir WRT voting Trump out. But Biden (and the rest of the moderates) are just as willing to shift rightward as leftward, and electing a weather vane isn't exactly appealing.
I'm going to address this, and we'll note up front that this is a personal anecdote for my experience in the city I grew up in and the city I live in now. I've been knocking on doors and calling people about the election since January because Ohio is a swing state. Almost everyone I've talked to who said they are eligible to vote but aren't voting are low income black and hispanic voters. They don't have their head in the sand. They see what's going on every day. And you know what? For them its the same shit that was happening when Obama was president. Tamir Rice was shot by the police and they found it as an "acceptable use of force". We've still got people getting arrested on bullshit drug charges and shocker they're almost all black. They watched both parties sell out our city as our economies collapsed. They don't care who is in charge because no one ever does jack shit to help them. To pivot away from Cleveland, Boston is almost entirely Democrats at every single level. Yet we have rampant issues with wealth inequality, gentrification, racism, police violence. Every year we get another article about a black writer leaving Boston and moving to the South and feeling like they deal with less racism in the south than in Boston. Do I agree with these people that they shouldn't vote? I dunno, I cast my ballot for Joe, but I didn't go through even 1/8th of the shit they did. Every one of those conversations made it harder to vote for him though, hearing the pain in their voices and in their eyes as they talk about how both parties fuck them, just one of them does it to their face while one does it behind their backs pretending to be their friend. But saying their head in the sand is just insulting. I try to stay as politically informed as possible, and they all sure as hell know the results of both parties better than me.
The rhetoric about not voting Biden being a privileged decision is so frustrating and dismissive. I'm being targeted by Trump and the environment he has taken advantage of and amplified too. There's more oppressed people than me, of course, but that's such a worthless game to play. I'm not a neutral outsider, and having my own oppression thrown back at me as if it's something I don't understand because it doesn't make me support the Democratic party is just painful.
OK I'm dropping out of this. Looking at the other comments you clearly don't have any interest in listening.
Cool. Hop on a plane and fly to Cleveland. I'll drive you around and you can make your points. Since its not hard at all I'm sure you'll have no problem changing their minds and you'll be able to wear the badge of pride that you managed to do what hundreds of activists couldn't do and turned Ohio blue.
Ah, ok. That point I will take much less offense to :) (edit)
but I'm telling you that that will not matter in the slightestbut I am telling you that I do not believe that it will be enough to matter.Again, this is only in my experience in East Cleveland and Roxybury/Dorchester/Allston/Brighton in Boston. But in my experience there is negative trust. When Boston BLM held a rally that gathered hundreds to march in Boston, it started in the mostly-minority neighborhood of Roxbury. There was a counter-parade of black locals screaming at everyone passing by "Go home. You don't actually care about black lives. You never come here. You don't care about anyone here. Do your PR stunt and go home and forget we exist like you always do." The only reason I can sometimes get people to listen to me is that I grew up in the area and still have friends in the area that can vouch for me. If you aren't local then they don't give a shit what you have to say because you don't know their struggle. The differences between Joe and Trump barely register because they've numbed themselves after decades of disappointment. I know, like you know, that Trump and Biden are leagues apart. I'm telling you that level of difference is hard to get to register on their radar. Obama "urging" things and the FBI putting out mandates does not mean jack shit because it did not change their lived experience. If I am being totally realistic, I doubt there is anything Joe Biden or any Democrat could do to earn these votes because they don't trust any politician not to fuck them over as soon as it is convenient. The only way you're going to convince these people the democrats are different is for them to actually enact large sweeping policy changes that materially impact these people's day-to-day lives. Things on a scale that I don't believe Biden will deliver on. And each time you do convince one of these people to vote and things don't change, you've made the battle that much harder for yourself next time because they now trust Democrats less and trust you less.
I personally know a few people who are very liberal who are basically refusing to vote for Biden at this point and I can't wrap my head around that. One of them lives in NY, so in a sense they can afford not to since Biden will likely take that state no matter what. But another lives in Virginia, where it's more likely to matter. If it were just "I don't like Biden, I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils, I'm out" and left at that I'd be okay with it. But instead they bash Biden constantly, which in my view only helps Trump. It's certainly not pushing the party further left like they claim to be interested in.
And don't get me wrong, I don't particularly care for Biden as a politician. He's too centrist, too old guard, and basically not at all where I think the Democrats should be heading. I totally agree with the reasons why the people I know dislike Biden. But in 2020 where realistically it's either him or Trump, I'd have to be brain dead to ever consider not voting for Biden.
I made this prediction in 2017, and I think it's looking good for it:
Your current politics, if you play your cards right, are headed towards a more European model which is less right-shifted. I foresee a split of the democratic party in the coming decade or so, into Biden-like democrats and AOC/Sanders-like progressives. Democrats would become right-wing and the GOP would become an extreme-right, fringe party.
So you shouldn't be thinking in terms of where you want democrats to be heading, but rather, where you want right-wing politics to be heading. Progressives are gaining steam no matter what, so as the democratic party shifts center-right as they acquire more ex-republicans, progressives benefit from this as the democratic party sheds its left-most wing.
This is honestly a win-win scenario: Republicans are happy, Democrats are happy, Progressives are happy. The only unhappy ones are the GOP and extreme-right/pro-populists and we don't fucking need that.
In that light, Biden is a fantastic candidate for running a center-right flavour of politics. But re-electing Trump is going a very fucking different route than this.