I always find compatibility assessments based on first dates a little lacking. You can tell physical attraction at that point, and maybe a smidge of personality, but I would be more confident...
I always find compatibility assessments based on first dates a little lacking. You can tell physical attraction at that point, and maybe a smidge of personality, but I would be more confident picking a partner by watching them walk down the street as I would going on a first date with them. Some people exude the same confidence whenever you meet them, but most folks are weird on first dates. They are nervous, they peacock, they are a mask of their real self. I spend a good number of years dating in San Francisco as well and anecdotally, there were very few 1st dates that were similar to 3rd dates.
I think in some format we all do a break down like this, be it mentally or on paper. The tall blonde woman I dated in April was more fun than the short brunette I started seeing in August, but the latter had her life together. I think more of the problem is that folks are trying to brute force dating with absolute numbers. As someone who does a good amount of hiring, I'd say that's a terrible way to go about dating. Indeed and Monster don't provide quality candidates just as Tinder and Match don't. I'm not saying there are no quality partners on there, but the noise to signal ratio is terrible. When I was on the apps I met maybe 2 really exciting prospects in the 6 years I used them and probably ~70ish first dates. In the meantime, I met probably one person a year in my everyday life that absolutely knocked my socks off. I give the same dating advice as I give career advice: If you want to reduce the noise and make a quality connection, put yourself in smaller, more curated circles. If you value the outdoors and active lifestyles join groups that promote those things - climbing gyms, REI trips, outdoor ed classes (i.e. AIARE or NOLS courses). If intellectualism is your jam go to museum "after dark" events or join courses that focus your specific niche (renaissance painters, mod culture, 19th century poets...). If you reduce the noise and limit the necessary for "perfect relationship now", sheets like this lose their appeal and necessity.
I've been chewing on a lot of thoughts in my head recently, after becoming increasingly bitter over using Hinge, and this echoes it so well. The modern online dating apps all feel eerily similar...
Exemplary
I think more of the problem is that folks are trying to brute force dating with absolute numbers. As someone who does a good amount of hiring, I'd say that's a terrible way to go about dating. Indeed and Monster don't provide quality candidates just as Tinder and Match don't. I'm not saying there are no quality partners on there, but the noise to signal ratio is terrible.
When I was on the apps I met maybe 2 really exciting prospects in the 6 years I used them and probably ~70ish first dates. In the meantime, I met probably one person a year in my everyday life that absolutely knocked my socks off.
I give the same dating advice as I give career advice: If you want to reduce the noise and make a quality connection, put yourself in smaller, more curated circles.
I've been chewing on a lot of thoughts in my head recently, after becoming increasingly bitter over using Hinge, and this echoes it so well.
The modern online dating apps all feel eerily similar to job applications/interviews. One side of the table receives way too many applications for 1 spot, the other side has to apply to many places to find their 1 spot. The interviewer side has to filter out a huge amount of bad candidates, ones that never had a chance in the first place, ones that may be normal but not right for the role, ones that are normal and right for the role, and ones that seem normal and like great candidates but are definitely not right for the role. As an interviewer you put up filters to try and weed out the bad candidates while leaving the good ones, but every time you do that you also run a big chance of weeding out the good ones and leaving only two groups applying: desperate people who do not care if they're not qualified, and people who know how to game the system and don't mind playing against the filters. People who are qualified are likely to drop out because they have better options (in dating's case, that's actual lives, and the lack of desperation of finding a partner). The pool is increasingly filled with people who can pass the filters, but they aren't what you want, you're trying to filter them out but your filter just added more friction, and desperate candidates don't care about friction.
I'm fed up with Hinge (and the other apps), I've found it to be a dehumanizing and frustrating experience overall. A sea of faces and short profiles, you send out likes, you expect to receive a fraction of likes back. Of those matches, only a fraction will actually engage in talk, of those, only a few will go on to be a conversation, of those, only a few will reply if you ask them out, and even then, there's still a big chance those people will just drop out on a dime for seemingly no reason.
It feels like the way to "succeed" on these apps is to focus on volume, viewing more and more profiles of people who will never enter your life in any way, have multiple conversations going at once, go on more first dates where you tell each other what your family is like and what your favourite movies are, a cycle of people you learn odd facts about their life only for them to fade out as quickly as you met them. Kill that part of yourself that holds hope that it will last, and shed yourself of feelings after the conversation abruptly stops.
I've read the subreddit and seen tiktok comments about people's experiences of Hinge, and it all feels like people feeling a lack of control in the process and exerting it in their own weird way. Person doesn't reply for an hour? Must mean they don't care about me, unmatch. Person asked me out too fast (e.g. a few days)? Nope, I want 2 weeks of texting, time to ghost. Person asked me out to drinks instead of dinner? That's lame, no deal, ghost and unmatch. Person wanted to do a dinner date instead of drinks? Nope, ghost and unmatch. A lack of communication with the other party is always a given. Somehow my job is giving me better connections and better communication experiences than platforms intended to find your lifelong partner.
The intention is to find a person you fully trust, to enter in to (hopefully) the most significant bond of your life. It feels so hard to build that trust on these platforms, knowing that you can't trust anyone, at any moment they can fade away completely, no matter how well it seems to be going, and with no reason. Everyone is just adding everyone else to a carousel of potential matches that you're juggling, hoping some of them convert in to the next part of the interview pipeline, having to keep people in reserve because of people dropping out, never getting too attached to anyone in particular because you can't.
And thats why I think I'm done! I'm going to try and find, as you said, more in-person activities to do, try and find hobbies (that aren't focused on dating) and hoping actual connections (platonic or not) come from that. I think the only way I can find success on these dating apps is to dehumanize myself and kill off a part of me that feels connections to people, and I just do not want to do that, I would rather put dating on the backburner and focus on real connections first.
Honestly I think the main issue here is that so many people feel disengaged with these apps. They don't know how to manage their own emotions or engage with these apps in a healthy way. To be...
Honestly I think the main issue here is that so many people feel disengaged with these apps. They don't know how to manage their own emotions or engage with these apps in a healthy way. To be absolutely fair, for all the reasons you mentioned, it's nearly impossible to interact with them in a healthy way in the first place. You need to have a certain level of detachment, to not get your hopes up because people unmatch or don't reply for the silliest of reasons. Worse yet, they don't explain why, they simply ghost or unmatch and go about their day rather than seeing whether their arbitrary reasoning for cutting someone out holds up against the person or is just a slight difference in approach.
I'm poly and also from SF. I happen to be queer and pan, however, so my experience is a bit different than the author's and likely yours. However, some of what's stated by the author and in your reply are fairly universal. As I already stated, the way I've found to most healthily interact with these apps is the following set of simple rules:
If you feel the itch, engage with the app and spend some time swiping on people and opening conversations.
Don't spend too long reading any profile, just enough to get a feel for whether you find them attractive and there aren't any obvious red flags (for me, mostly looking to see that they are also queer).
If you happen to match, send out a generic greeting or opener saying hello and asking about something on their profile or an open question like what they're excited about lately, what they spent their time on, plans they are looking forward to, etc. Do not spend more than 1 minute thinking what to say, as most people will unmatch or never respond.
Push towards moving off the platform (text, instagram, etc) ASAP as people often delete their profiles, mute notifications, or otherwise disappear for reasons unrelated to any interest in you.
Try not to think too much about the person or compatibility outside of obvious red flags until the first date, because most of the people who do reply will never meet up.
If ever at any point you feel like it's too frustrating or annoying, don't swipe on people for awhile. When the itch comes, get back at it.
At least for my own experience, what I find most draining about these apps is when I get too engaged with it. When I spend too much time thinking about how someone seems really cool or that I hope they respond to me or even that I think it'll be cool to meet up with someone, I'm opening myself up for disappointment. As I mentioned earlier, people really struggle with these apps. Completely muting notifications or the app getting lost in a sea of other notifications is extremely common. Deleting accounts on a regular (monthly, weekly, or even daily basis) is more common than you probably think. People struggle with the coldness that comes from these apps and the numbers game that it has to be, and people go through shit in their lives constantly and drop off. People have ADHD or get busy and forget that you exist. Attention is tough to get and people often don't want these apps to have access to their attention so you have to work within those confines.
All in all I've found a lot of success from these apps, but also a lot of frustration. In person dating just isn't as efficient as I find myself rarely interested in dating someone at events designed around singles or activities who is also interested in dating me. However, I'm queer and trans, so the slice of people interested in dating me is much smaller and I need bigger numbers to even get a reasonable shot.
Yes this is exactly what has happened to me. It doesn't help that I'm fickle in my own ways. Maybe a real dating app should just be a way to meet people in groups without any explicit dating...
Yes this is exactly what has happened to me. It doesn't help that I'm fickle in my own ways.
Maybe a real dating app should just be a way to meet people in groups without any explicit dating expectations.
Edit:
I think there’s this presumption by women that I could be violent or manipulative (and I see what happens in the world, too. I don’t blame them for being cautious). But it brings a certain vibe to the early stages of dating that I don’t like. That and the software drive Hinge to be very interview-like. Maybe the best thing I could do is try to redirect everything to a lighter tone and show how I’m a real decent person. But over the last few years I’ve instead had the attitude of “Oh, that’s the game we’re playing? Well I guess we’re both doing it then.” Needless to say it’s mostly been not very fun for anyone.
I agree. Dating apps set up people for failure because the concept of dating that people have is bad in ways that aren't at all obvious. Hi, stranger! I already made my mind up that I intend you...
Maybe a real dating app should just be a way to meet people in groups without any explicit dating expectations.
I agree. Dating apps set up people for failure because the concept of dating that people have is bad in ways that aren't at all obvious.
Hi, stranger! I already made my mind up that I intend you to either have sex with or marry me some time in the future. Please make sure that you are perfect and meet my completely arbitrary expectations for you that I'm also probably not going to tell you.
Even if they are an ideal match, that kind of pressure is not exactly a recipe for success. You need to go out, have fun, and meet a lot of people. You can't just force people to like you any more than you can force yourself to like others; you need to grow closer.
This is pretty sound advice I think, but in some metros (like SF Bay Area) where there's a disproportionate number of men it can be tricky for hetero guys, because activity/hobby groups will often...
I give the same dating advice as I give career advice: If you want to reduce the noise and make a quality connection, put yourself in smaller, more curated circles. If you value the outdoors and active lifestyles join groups that promote those things - climbing gyms, REI trips, outdoor ed classes (i.e. AIARE or NOLS courses). If intellectualism is your jam go to museum "after dark" events or join courses that focus your specific niche (renaissance painters, mod culture, 19th century poets...).
This is pretty sound advice I think, but in some metros (like SF Bay Area) where there's a disproportionate number of men it can be tricky for hetero guys, because activity/hobby groups will often be composed mostly of other hetero guys who had the same idea. There's still potential to meet women but it's likely they'll be somewhat defensive as a result of being outnumbered and having to fend off the advances of the less tactful of the group (I don't blame them, in their shoes I'd be doing the same). It's easy to see how guys in that situation could wind up falling back on dating apps.
I only just dipped my toes into this approach before covid hit though (was too busy with work to think about pursuing interests or dating prior), so my experience on the matter is limited. Perhaps the effect can be mitigated by sticking to less obvious/more niche interests.
That's valid. My own experience was that women are likely to be less defensive if they see you a place a lot. I ended up making a lot of female friends at Mission Cliffs (climbing gym) and even...
That's valid. My own experience was that women are likely to be less defensive if they see you a place a lot. I ended up making a lot of female friends at Mission Cliffs (climbing gym) and even found a partner there. To your point a lot of guys will hit on them or spray beta (climbing term for the unaquainted) at them and generally make it an unpleasant experience. I found that if I just interacted normally as I would with the boys, while toning down some of the more friendly critical ways we normally interact, it was easy to just be a regular feature at the gym for everyone. Once you're a feature at a place, interacting isn't something that sparks defensiveness. I think that may come down to point 2, you have to be at the location/event because you're genuinely interested in it. If you're just stoked to be there and making friends or partners is secondary I think it'll come across that way. Also, as you mention, it's a time thing too. If you've been at a place a while or have a level of comfort with the activity things tend to be easier.
My last recommendation is more difficult to employ and time/energy dependent. Be an active participant in putting together the activity or event you're interested in. I worked part time as a setter in a few climbing gyms. If you go in to climb you can make friends but it takes a while. If you are the setter everyone tends to know who you are and likes to interact with you. Some of it will be critique, but often it's just fun to know the people "running" your activity. Same goes for the host of a book club or the leader of a hiking group. More often than not, people would be comfortable to approach me and folks aren't defensive when they are seeking you out. In my current town I started a pick up volleyball game. I have a partner of 8 years so I'm not looking for the same things you are but it's been a great way to meet a lot of young people in the community.
And in that kind of place, do people really want to try dating in their hobby circles if a bad date will make that space uncomfortable in the future? Saying yes to a date with someone they're...
And in that kind of place, do people really want to try dating in their hobby circles if a bad date will make that space uncomfortable in the future? Saying yes to a date with someone they're possibly going to see on every future hiking excursion is almost on par with saying yes to a date at work. If it goes bad, the person is still going to be there.
Yeah, I always asked people about their "source." Think about the kind of people you'd like, and where, when, and on what occasion would you meet them? Even better if it's recurring, to slowly...
If you want to reduce the noise and make a quality connection, put yourself in smaller, more curated circles.
Yeah, I always asked people about their "source." Think about the kind of people you'd like, and where, when, and on what occasion would you meet them? Even better if it's recurring, to slowly build rapports. I found a lot of cool events taking that approach, and also became more socially proactive to create opportunities. (You also have to be realistic and figure out that if your type is introverts who keep to themselves, that you need to play the friends-of-friends game.)
(That being said, I totally met my current partner off Tinder; his profile was terrible but he was great when we spoke.)
General comments: I agree with this from the article
Instead, she’s a fan of journaling her self-reflections after dates in a “long-form qualitative way,” and writing down her own set of dating rules there.
I don't think spreadsheets are a bad thing. But the lifestyle that made it useful was definitely terrible; I felt increasingly diminished and feel as though I see it in my friends as well. To force a human connection like that is to put yourself through the wringer. (Also, dating felt 10 times harder about a year ago than it did about 10 years ago; I still have friends from that time period where dating online was still a little weird.)
Well, a spreadsheet worked for me. Way back in 2005 when I was in my 40's. When I found myself punted out after 22 years of marriage, the whole online dating thing was still considered pretty much...
Exemplary
Well, a spreadsheet worked for me. Way back in 2005 when I was in my 40's.
When I found myself punted out after 22 years of marriage, the whole online dating thing was still considered pretty much for 'losers', at least that's what my teenage kids told me. As a guy who rarely dated before marrying young it was a pretty new, definitely very weird experience and the spreadsheet was just a tool to help make sense of it all and try to sort out what exactly I was looking for. More accurately it helped me sort out what I was not looking for.
After starting out with nearly zero confidence, I came to realize that being employed already put me near the top of the list for a lot of women, then having hair and actually being able to write sentences that aren't full of spelling and punctuation errors made it fairly easy to get dates. (Your English teacher was right - spelling does count)
The fact that I explicitly stated that I wasn't looking for a hook up, I was looking for a long term/marriage relationship helped a great deal too. I also was clear that I only dated one woman at a time. Pretty soon my calendar was regularly getting filled up and I realized I had a LOT of options. Dozens of them.
But I was pretty careful about the process - I made the mistake of going for full on dates the first few times - supper, a movie, dessert, a walk in the park - only to blow a pile of money and time on someone I could tell the instant we met was going to be a no. After that I just toned it down to 'let's meet for coffee and see if there's a spark before we try a real date' and that worked much better.
After every meet up I would rate each woman on my spreadsheet based on several criteria. I don't recall exactly but it was something like Looks, Sense of Humor, Values, Intelligence, Chemistry and then added them up for a grand total. Only a few got a second chance as I had no intention of leading anyone on, and if they weren't potential marriage material I just made my exit immediately, usually even as the coffee meet ended. Bowing out gracefully is a bit tough but it's a heck of a lot better than leading someone on and if there was no spark I just learned to say that it was nice to meet them, but things weren't going to go any further. Often that was met with mutual agreement, sometimes with a bit of anger, and occasionally with tacit agreement only to be followed by a begging email to try another date.
It was an odd experience in many ways - fun, exhausting and frustrating at the same time.
This went on for awhile, I don't recall exactly but it was more than a year and dozens of coffee meets and a few short term relationships that had potential but fizzled out for one reason or another.
And then one day I connected online with a lovely lady who lived 500 miles from my home - after a few weeks of chatting on the phone I decided to make the long trek to meet her. We met in a coffee shop and there was instantly a very strong feeling that I had never felt with any other woman. After a very short time I realized that I felt like I'd come home, that she was the one. The spreadsheet became irrelevant.
We still dated long distance for another five years but it was clear that there was no other option, she was indeed the one.
So we got married. That was 13 years ago and I can still say she's the most amazing woman I ever met, just far above any other woman and definitely the one for me. We've both said we'd never want to go back to the dating scene, especially in today's "swipe and pick another one" dating scene and I'm very happy that we landed where we did.
I've gone through a very similar experience.... Online dating in 04/05, responded reluctantly to a photoless profile 30 miles away, only to be instantly smitten as soon as she jauntily sauntered...
I've gone through a very similar experience.... Online dating in 04/05, responded reluctantly to a photoless profile 30 miles away, only to be instantly smitten as soon as she jauntily sauntered into the coffee shop.
I think you will agree, but just to clarify, that gut attraction isn't a guarantee:
I am sure I have thought I felt that feeling multiple times (usually dulled by booze.)
It also doesn't promise smooth sailing:
There are rough patches that hit any relationship.
Lastly, it doesn't mean you stop with the checklists:
I have a huge dating document somewhere. It asks all the standard questions. Do we have fun under a variety of circumstances. Are we compatible politically, religiously, financially, mentally, physically, emotionally, from a family perspective.... Of course, all that goes out the window when you fall for someone.
Interestingly, my wife's profile had no photo either, because she was such a computer newbie at the time that she didn't know how to upload one. I generally assumed anyone without a pic was...
Online dating in 04/05, responded reluctantly to a photoless profile 30 miles away, only to be instantly smitten as soon as she jauntily sauntered into the coffee shop.
Interestingly, my wife's profile had no photo either, because she was such a computer newbie at the time that she didn't know how to upload one. I generally assumed anyone without a pic was unattractive. But I got her to email me one and yes, I was instantly smitten.
But it wasn't just the gut attraction. We'd already talked on the phone for several weeks when I met her and I had a pretty good idea of her values and priorities. And then being in her presence AND realizing she was as genuine as she sounded really amazed me. It was the 'coming home' part that I can't quite formulate into words - but the closest (and cheesiest) I can think of is that meeting her was like putting on a comfortable pair of slippers vs trying on other nice but not quite right shoes. It just felt like it was meant to be and everyone else was just not the same.
Are we compatible politically, religiously, financially, mentally, physically, emotionally, from a family perspective.... Of course, all that goes out the window when you fall for someone.
You're right, that initial attraction can happen with a lot of people, it's just the thing that says you'll likely not roll over and wonder what the heck you were thinking if you eventually get together. But that's why we did the five years of long distance dating - after both going through a divorce we weren't in the mood to get into another failed relationship so we took it long and slow. We only got to see each other every second or third weekend with lots of time to talk in between so there was plenty of time to know each other well.
I sometimes wonder if dating wouldn't be more successful if people went with the matchmaker approach? The dating apps are a numbers game and I think a LOT of people give up because its exhausting.
My wife didn't upload a photo because she didn't want to get outed. To this date, she still refuses to tell people that we met online. When people ask me how we met, I will ask them if they want...
My wife didn't upload a photo because she didn't want to get outed.
To this date, she still refuses to tell people that we met online.
When people ask me how we met, I will ask them if they want my wife's version, or the truth. They invariably think about it for a second, and then say "both!"
Before we met, my wife emailed me a photo of herself... with another guy....
This was back in 05, so it was this potato photo, the guy was wearing a hat and sunglasses....
I kept wondering, why isn't she uploading a photo of herself, then why is she emailing me a photo of her with another dude...
Turns out it was her Dad, but I didn't find that out until well into the first date.
I tried speed dating once. It was horrible. It was like ten bad dates, all in quick succession.
Speaking of odd photos, I once got one from a lady while I was spending time in Hawaii. She was in a bikini on a beach, but it was a potato shot from VERY far away so I couldn't tell much more...
Speaking of odd photos, I once got one from a lady while I was spending time in Hawaii. She was in a bikini on a beach, but it was a potato shot from VERY far away so I couldn't tell much more than she was a shapely female. I was 45, she looked like she might be mid 30's. Despite asking for another pic, that's all I got. I was suspicious but I took a chance and decided to meet up.
When she stepped out of her car my jaw nearly hit the ground. She was indeed still in good shape, but I was expecting a 35 yr old - she must have been 60 years old! I was NOT looking to date someone nearly as old as my mom but she purposely concealed her age with a VERY old photo, believing that once I got to meet her, I wouldn't care that she was far older. I minded. It was an enjoyable meet up and she was a nice person, but I wasn't keen on the deception, or dating a senior citizen.
"Eventually I got sick of asking everyone around me why I keep dating the wrong guys. When a friend attending business school showed me a decision-making spreadsheet model, I was reminded of the...
"Eventually I got sick of asking everyone around me why I keep dating the wrong guys. When a friend attending business school showed me a decision-making spreadsheet model, I was reminded of the first internet-famous “dating spreadsheet.” In 2012, the year Tinder launched, a male New York investment banker emailed the Excel file he used to log all his Match.com dates to one of his dates....
In the years that followed, many others have publicly shared that they used similar spreadsheets for various purposes: to feel a “sense of accomplishment ... even if a date is bad,” to start anew in finding love in one’s 40s, or to figure out why none of the dates were working out. "
I personally could never imagine doing this with a spreadsheet, but I got lucky and found my husband after meeting him through a class we took together. I would be interested to hear what people...
I personally could never imagine doing this with a spreadsheet, but I got lucky and found my husband after meeting him through a class we took together. I would be interested to hear what people thing of this 'strategy'.
Looking at the dating scene from the outside as a married person, I think I would have preferred the old personality profile based dating tools like eharmony as opposed to the swipe right photo based apps. Also I'm intrigued by the premise of itsjustlunch.com.
I wonder if there could be a market opportunity for a service that would be less skewed toward having excellent photos before someone will look at you. But publicizing the service and getting people to use it would be a huge barrier to entry. I don't know what the solution is.
I mean the spreadsheet is really besides the point (other than a slightly more provocative title, since spreadsheets are associated with like tax accountants and cold hearted business). This is...
I mean the spreadsheet is really besides the point (other than a slightly more provocative title, since spreadsheets are associated with like tax accountants and cold hearted business). This is just about spray and pray dating. It’s not like she’s doing any number crunching, she could’ve done the same with the notes app, google docs, a kanban board, physical pen and paper, Incan record knots, etc.
Once you start spraying and praying you need to either write things down or be okay with being a bit lost about what’s happening.
I appreciate the reference to Quipu. : ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu https://www.peruforless.com/blog/quipu/ But you seem like you have some insight. What is your proposed alternative to...
I don’t think there necessarily is one. Like job applications, I think spray and pray is the Nash equilibrium for modern dating. Although worse overall for everyone, there is little incentive not...
I don’t think there necessarily is one. Like job applications, I think spray and pray is the Nash equilibrium for modern dating. Although worse overall for everyone, there is little incentive not to so for any individual.
It is what it is. It’s a phenomena that occurred as everyone become connected to everyone. Just have to get use it.
I built a sheet like this for a friend many years ago. She didn't buy into it and is still single. A simple 1-3 is excellent for comparing values. I also had it split between the profile, the...
I built a sheet like this for a friend many years ago. She didn't buy into it and is still single. A simple 1-3 is excellent for comparing values. I also had it split between the profile, the written communication, and the in-person communication, then it took an average of those three with more weight on in-person and written.
Long story short, these sheets are a breeze to make and almost always prompt reconsideration for people that may have been dismissed from the start. A good way to find that diamond in the rough :)
I was going to judge this woman for making a spreadsheet, but then I remembered. I created my own version of this that is probably even more insane and weird. I have divided the archetypes of the...
I was going to judge this woman for making a spreadsheet, but then I remembered. I created my own version of this that is probably even more insane and weird. I have divided the archetypes of the dual male/female dyad as a matrix which is split into 14 separate god/goddess components. It's based on the Love Language book, where I thought there were more than 4. So a less crazy sounding title might be: 14 love languages. And the idea of finding someone is if they and I click on all 14, then she's marriage material.
There is some psychology behind it, but I don't want to give it all away in case I make it into a book or something. However, there are dark elements behind each of the 14, as well. Each of the 14 has a dark component and a light component for male and female. I also have a theory that all mentally healthy people display all 14, when they are in love with each other, even if those languages don't click or are more light or dark. I don't buy into the idea of not displaying other love languages. Or maybe I do for other people, but I want more than that. I know I've had a relationship where love was shown in 14 love language ways. Any time it was only 1 language shown, it usually meant the relationship was immature and hadn't developed yet, or was on the rocks and on life support. In its most pragmatic form, it's really just a way for me to take the temperature of the relationship.
I always find compatibility assessments based on first dates a little lacking. You can tell physical attraction at that point, and maybe a smidge of personality, but I would be more confident picking a partner by watching them walk down the street as I would going on a first date with them. Some people exude the same confidence whenever you meet them, but most folks are weird on first dates. They are nervous, they peacock, they are a mask of their real self. I spend a good number of years dating in San Francisco as well and anecdotally, there were very few 1st dates that were similar to 3rd dates.
I think in some format we all do a break down like this, be it mentally or on paper. The tall blonde woman I dated in April was more fun than the short brunette I started seeing in August, but the latter had her life together. I think more of the problem is that folks are trying to brute force dating with absolute numbers. As someone who does a good amount of hiring, I'd say that's a terrible way to go about dating. Indeed and Monster don't provide quality candidates just as Tinder and Match don't. I'm not saying there are no quality partners on there, but the noise to signal ratio is terrible. When I was on the apps I met maybe 2 really exciting prospects in the 6 years I used them and probably ~70ish first dates. In the meantime, I met probably one person a year in my everyday life that absolutely knocked my socks off. I give the same dating advice as I give career advice: If you want to reduce the noise and make a quality connection, put yourself in smaller, more curated circles. If you value the outdoors and active lifestyles join groups that promote those things - climbing gyms, REI trips, outdoor ed classes (i.e. AIARE or NOLS courses). If intellectualism is your jam go to museum "after dark" events or join courses that focus your specific niche (renaissance painters, mod culture, 19th century poets...). If you reduce the noise and limit the necessary for "perfect relationship now", sheets like this lose their appeal and necessity.
I've been chewing on a lot of thoughts in my head recently, after becoming increasingly bitter over using Hinge, and this echoes it so well.
The modern online dating apps all feel eerily similar to job applications/interviews. One side of the table receives way too many applications for 1 spot, the other side has to apply to many places to find their 1 spot. The interviewer side has to filter out a huge amount of bad candidates, ones that never had a chance in the first place, ones that may be normal but not right for the role, ones that are normal and right for the role, and ones that seem normal and like great candidates but are definitely not right for the role. As an interviewer you put up filters to try and weed out the bad candidates while leaving the good ones, but every time you do that you also run a big chance of weeding out the good ones and leaving only two groups applying: desperate people who do not care if they're not qualified, and people who know how to game the system and don't mind playing against the filters. People who are qualified are likely to drop out because they have better options (in dating's case, that's actual lives, and the lack of desperation of finding a partner). The pool is increasingly filled with people who can pass the filters, but they aren't what you want, you're trying to filter them out but your filter just added more friction, and desperate candidates don't care about friction.
I'm fed up with Hinge (and the other apps), I've found it to be a dehumanizing and frustrating experience overall. A sea of faces and short profiles, you send out likes, you expect to receive a fraction of likes back. Of those matches, only a fraction will actually engage in talk, of those, only a few will go on to be a conversation, of those, only a few will reply if you ask them out, and even then, there's still a big chance those people will just drop out on a dime for seemingly no reason.
It feels like the way to "succeed" on these apps is to focus on volume, viewing more and more profiles of people who will never enter your life in any way, have multiple conversations going at once, go on more first dates where you tell each other what your family is like and what your favourite movies are, a cycle of people you learn odd facts about their life only for them to fade out as quickly as you met them. Kill that part of yourself that holds hope that it will last, and shed yourself of feelings after the conversation abruptly stops.
I've read the subreddit and seen tiktok comments about people's experiences of Hinge, and it all feels like people feeling a lack of control in the process and exerting it in their own weird way. Person doesn't reply for an hour? Must mean they don't care about me, unmatch. Person asked me out too fast (e.g. a few days)? Nope, I want 2 weeks of texting, time to ghost. Person asked me out to drinks instead of dinner? That's lame, no deal, ghost and unmatch. Person wanted to do a dinner date instead of drinks? Nope, ghost and unmatch. A lack of communication with the other party is always a given. Somehow my job is giving me better connections and better communication experiences than platforms intended to find your lifelong partner.
The intention is to find a person you fully trust, to enter in to (hopefully) the most significant bond of your life. It feels so hard to build that trust on these platforms, knowing that you can't trust anyone, at any moment they can fade away completely, no matter how well it seems to be going, and with no reason. Everyone is just adding everyone else to a carousel of potential matches that you're juggling, hoping some of them convert in to the next part of the interview pipeline, having to keep people in reserve because of people dropping out, never getting too attached to anyone in particular because you can't.
And thats why I think I'm done! I'm going to try and find, as you said, more in-person activities to do, try and find hobbies (that aren't focused on dating) and hoping actual connections (platonic or not) come from that. I think the only way I can find success on these dating apps is to dehumanize myself and kill off a part of me that feels connections to people, and I just do not want to do that, I would rather put dating on the backburner and focus on real connections first.
Honestly I think the main issue here is that so many people feel disengaged with these apps. They don't know how to manage their own emotions or engage with these apps in a healthy way. To be absolutely fair, for all the reasons you mentioned, it's nearly impossible to interact with them in a healthy way in the first place. You need to have a certain level of detachment, to not get your hopes up because people unmatch or don't reply for the silliest of reasons. Worse yet, they don't explain why, they simply ghost or unmatch and go about their day rather than seeing whether their arbitrary reasoning for cutting someone out holds up against the person or is just a slight difference in approach.
I'm poly and also from SF. I happen to be queer and pan, however, so my experience is a bit different than the author's and likely yours. However, some of what's stated by the author and in your reply are fairly universal. As I already stated, the way I've found to most healthily interact with these apps is the following set of simple rules:
At least for my own experience, what I find most draining about these apps is when I get too engaged with it. When I spend too much time thinking about how someone seems really cool or that I hope they respond to me or even that I think it'll be cool to meet up with someone, I'm opening myself up for disappointment. As I mentioned earlier, people really struggle with these apps. Completely muting notifications or the app getting lost in a sea of other notifications is extremely common. Deleting accounts on a regular (monthly, weekly, or even daily basis) is more common than you probably think. People struggle with the coldness that comes from these apps and the numbers game that it has to be, and people go through shit in their lives constantly and drop off. People have ADHD or get busy and forget that you exist. Attention is tough to get and people often don't want these apps to have access to their attention so you have to work within those confines.
All in all I've found a lot of success from these apps, but also a lot of frustration. In person dating just isn't as efficient as I find myself rarely interested in dating someone at events designed around singles or activities who is also interested in dating me. However, I'm queer and trans, so the slice of people interested in dating me is much smaller and I need bigger numbers to even get a reasonable shot.
Yes this is exactly what has happened to me. It doesn't help that I'm fickle in my own ways.
Maybe a real dating app should just be a way to meet people in groups without any explicit dating expectations.
Edit:
I think there’s this presumption by women that I could be violent or manipulative (and I see what happens in the world, too. I don’t blame them for being cautious). But it brings a certain vibe to the early stages of dating that I don’t like. That and the software drive Hinge to be very interview-like. Maybe the best thing I could do is try to redirect everything to a lighter tone and show how I’m a real decent person. But over the last few years I’ve instead had the attitude of “Oh, that’s the game we’re playing? Well I guess we’re both doing it then.” Needless to say it’s mostly been not very fun for anyone.
I agree. Dating apps set up people for failure because the concept of dating that people have is bad in ways that aren't at all obvious.
Hi, stranger! I already made my mind up that I intend you to either have sex with or marry me some time in the future. Please make sure that you are perfect and meet my completely arbitrary expectations for you that I'm also probably not going to tell you.
Even if they are an ideal match, that kind of pressure is not exactly a recipe for success. You need to go out, have fun, and meet a lot of people. You can't just force people to like you any more than you can force yourself to like others; you need to grow closer.
This is pretty sound advice I think, but in some metros (like SF Bay Area) where there's a disproportionate number of men it can be tricky for hetero guys, because activity/hobby groups will often be composed mostly of other hetero guys who had the same idea. There's still potential to meet women but it's likely they'll be somewhat defensive as a result of being outnumbered and having to fend off the advances of the less tactful of the group (I don't blame them, in their shoes I'd be doing the same). It's easy to see how guys in that situation could wind up falling back on dating apps.
I only just dipped my toes into this approach before covid hit though (was too busy with work to think about pursuing interests or dating prior), so my experience on the matter is limited. Perhaps the effect can be mitigated by sticking to less obvious/more niche interests.
That's valid. My own experience was that women are likely to be less defensive if they see you a place a lot. I ended up making a lot of female friends at Mission Cliffs (climbing gym) and even found a partner there. To your point a lot of guys will hit on them or spray beta (climbing term for the unaquainted) at them and generally make it an unpleasant experience. I found that if I just interacted normally as I would with the boys, while toning down some of the more friendly critical ways we normally interact, it was easy to just be a regular feature at the gym for everyone. Once you're a feature at a place, interacting isn't something that sparks defensiveness. I think that may come down to point 2, you have to be at the location/event because you're genuinely interested in it. If you're just stoked to be there and making friends or partners is secondary I think it'll come across that way. Also, as you mention, it's a time thing too. If you've been at a place a while or have a level of comfort with the activity things tend to be easier.
My last recommendation is more difficult to employ and time/energy dependent. Be an active participant in putting together the activity or event you're interested in. I worked part time as a setter in a few climbing gyms. If you go in to climb you can make friends but it takes a while. If you are the setter everyone tends to know who you are and likes to interact with you. Some of it will be critique, but often it's just fun to know the people "running" your activity. Same goes for the host of a book club or the leader of a hiking group. More often than not, people would be comfortable to approach me and folks aren't defensive when they are seeking you out. In my current town I started a pick up volleyball game. I have a partner of 8 years so I'm not looking for the same things you are but it's been a great way to meet a lot of young people in the community.
And in that kind of place, do people really want to try dating in their hobby circles if a bad date will make that space uncomfortable in the future? Saying yes to a date with someone they're possibly going to see on every future hiking excursion is almost on par with saying yes to a date at work. If it goes bad, the person is still going to be there.
I mean, one set of my grandparents met at work (although it was a large company and they weren't in the same department)
Yeah, I always asked people about their "source." Think about the kind of people you'd like, and where, when, and on what occasion would you meet them? Even better if it's recurring, to slowly build rapports. I found a lot of cool events taking that approach, and also became more socially proactive to create opportunities. (You also have to be realistic and figure out that if your type is introverts who keep to themselves, that you need to play the friends-of-friends game.)
(That being said, I totally met my current partner off Tinder; his profile was terrible but he was great when we spoke.)
General comments: I agree with this from the article
I don't think spreadsheets are a bad thing. But the lifestyle that made it useful was definitely terrible; I felt increasingly diminished and feel as though I see it in my friends as well. To force a human connection like that is to put yourself through the wringer. (Also, dating felt 10 times harder about a year ago than it did about 10 years ago; I still have friends from that time period where dating online was still a little weird.)
Well, a spreadsheet worked for me. Way back in 2005 when I was in my 40's.
When I found myself punted out after 22 years of marriage, the whole online dating thing was still considered pretty much for 'losers', at least that's what my teenage kids told me. As a guy who rarely dated before marrying young it was a pretty new, definitely very weird experience and the spreadsheet was just a tool to help make sense of it all and try to sort out what exactly I was looking for. More accurately it helped me sort out what I was not looking for.
After starting out with nearly zero confidence, I came to realize that being employed already put me near the top of the list for a lot of women, then having hair and actually being able to write sentences that aren't full of spelling and punctuation errors made it fairly easy to get dates. (Your English teacher was right - spelling does count)
The fact that I explicitly stated that I wasn't looking for a hook up, I was looking for a long term/marriage relationship helped a great deal too. I also was clear that I only dated one woman at a time. Pretty soon my calendar was regularly getting filled up and I realized I had a LOT of options. Dozens of them.
But I was pretty careful about the process - I made the mistake of going for full on dates the first few times - supper, a movie, dessert, a walk in the park - only to blow a pile of money and time on someone I could tell the instant we met was going to be a no. After that I just toned it down to 'let's meet for coffee and see if there's a spark before we try a real date' and that worked much better.
After every meet up I would rate each woman on my spreadsheet based on several criteria. I don't recall exactly but it was something like Looks, Sense of Humor, Values, Intelligence, Chemistry and then added them up for a grand total. Only a few got a second chance as I had no intention of leading anyone on, and if they weren't potential marriage material I just made my exit immediately, usually even as the coffee meet ended. Bowing out gracefully is a bit tough but it's a heck of a lot better than leading someone on and if there was no spark I just learned to say that it was nice to meet them, but things weren't going to go any further. Often that was met with mutual agreement, sometimes with a bit of anger, and occasionally with tacit agreement only to be followed by a begging email to try another date.
It was an odd experience in many ways - fun, exhausting and frustrating at the same time.
This went on for awhile, I don't recall exactly but it was more than a year and dozens of coffee meets and a few short term relationships that had potential but fizzled out for one reason or another.
And then one day I connected online with a lovely lady who lived 500 miles from my home - after a few weeks of chatting on the phone I decided to make the long trek to meet her. We met in a coffee shop and there was instantly a very strong feeling that I had never felt with any other woman. After a very short time I realized that I felt like I'd come home, that she was the one. The spreadsheet became irrelevant.
We still dated long distance for another five years but it was clear that there was no other option, she was indeed the one.
So we got married. That was 13 years ago and I can still say she's the most amazing woman I ever met, just far above any other woman and definitely the one for me. We've both said we'd never want to go back to the dating scene, especially in today's "swipe and pick another one" dating scene and I'm very happy that we landed where we did.
I've gone through a very similar experience.... Online dating in 04/05, responded reluctantly to a photoless profile 30 miles away, only to be instantly smitten as soon as she jauntily sauntered into the coffee shop.
I think you will agree, but just to clarify, that gut attraction isn't a guarantee:
I am sure I have thought I felt that feeling multiple times (usually dulled by booze.)
It also doesn't promise smooth sailing:
There are rough patches that hit any relationship.
Lastly, it doesn't mean you stop with the checklists:
I have a huge dating document somewhere. It asks all the standard questions. Do we have fun under a variety of circumstances. Are we compatible politically, religiously, financially, mentally, physically, emotionally, from a family perspective.... Of course, all that goes out the window when you fall for someone.
Interestingly, my wife's profile had no photo either, because she was such a computer newbie at the time that she didn't know how to upload one. I generally assumed anyone without a pic was unattractive. But I got her to email me one and yes, I was instantly smitten.
But it wasn't just the gut attraction. We'd already talked on the phone for several weeks when I met her and I had a pretty good idea of her values and priorities. And then being in her presence AND realizing she was as genuine as she sounded really amazed me. It was the 'coming home' part that I can't quite formulate into words - but the closest (and cheesiest) I can think of is that meeting her was like putting on a comfortable pair of slippers vs trying on other nice but not quite right shoes. It just felt like it was meant to be and everyone else was just not the same.
You're right, that initial attraction can happen with a lot of people, it's just the thing that says you'll likely not roll over and wonder what the heck you were thinking if you eventually get together. But that's why we did the five years of long distance dating - after both going through a divorce we weren't in the mood to get into another failed relationship so we took it long and slow. We only got to see each other every second or third weekend with lots of time to talk in between so there was plenty of time to know each other well.
I sometimes wonder if dating wouldn't be more successful if people went with the matchmaker approach? The dating apps are a numbers game and I think a LOT of people give up because its exhausting.
My wife didn't upload a photo because she didn't want to get outed.
To this date, she still refuses to tell people that we met online.
When people ask me how we met, I will ask them if they want my wife's version, or the truth. They invariably think about it for a second, and then say "both!"
Before we met, my wife emailed me a photo of herself... with another guy....
This was back in 05, so it was this potato photo, the guy was wearing a hat and sunglasses....
I kept wondering, why isn't she uploading a photo of herself, then why is she emailing me a photo of her with another dude...
Turns out it was her Dad, but I didn't find that out until well into the first date.
I tried speed dating once. It was horrible. It was like ten bad dates, all in quick succession.
Speaking of odd photos, I once got one from a lady while I was spending time in Hawaii. She was in a bikini on a beach, but it was a potato shot from VERY far away so I couldn't tell much more than she was a shapely female. I was 45, she looked like she might be mid 30's. Despite asking for another pic, that's all I got. I was suspicious but I took a chance and decided to meet up.
When she stepped out of her car my jaw nearly hit the ground. She was indeed still in good shape, but I was expecting a 35 yr old - she must have been 60 years old! I was NOT looking to date someone nearly as old as my mom but she purposely concealed her age with a VERY old photo, believing that once I got to meet her, I wouldn't care that she was far older. I minded. It was an enjoyable meet up and she was a nice person, but I wasn't keen on the deception, or dating a senior citizen.
"Eventually I got sick of asking everyone around me why I keep dating the wrong guys. When a friend attending business school showed me a decision-making spreadsheet model, I was reminded of the first internet-famous “dating spreadsheet.” In 2012, the year Tinder launched, a male New York investment banker emailed the Excel file he used to log all his Match.com dates to one of his dates....
In the years that followed, many others have publicly shared that they used similar spreadsheets for various purposes: to feel a “sense of accomplishment ... even if a date is bad,” to start anew in finding love in one’s 40s, or to figure out why none of the dates were working out. "
I personally could never imagine doing this with a spreadsheet, but I got lucky and found my husband after meeting him through a class we took together. I would be interested to hear what people thing of this 'strategy'.
Looking at the dating scene from the outside as a married person, I think I would have preferred the old personality profile based dating tools like eharmony as opposed to the swipe right photo based apps. Also I'm intrigued by the premise of itsjustlunch.com.
I wonder if there could be a market opportunity for a service that would be less skewed toward having excellent photos before someone will look at you. But publicizing the service and getting people to use it would be a huge barrier to entry. I don't know what the solution is.
I mean the spreadsheet is really besides the point (other than a slightly more provocative title, since spreadsheets are associated with like tax accountants and cold hearted business). This is just about spray and pray dating. It’s not like she’s doing any number crunching, she could’ve done the same with the notes app, google docs, a kanban board, physical pen and paper, Incan record knots, etc.
Once you start spraying and praying you need to either write things down or be okay with being a bit lost about what’s happening.
I appreciate the reference to Quipu. : )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu
https://www.peruforless.com/blog/quipu/
But you seem like you have some insight. What is your proposed alternative to spray and pray? How should people meet people when looking for romance?
I don’t think there necessarily is one. Like job applications, I think spray and pray is the Nash equilibrium for modern dating. Although worse overall for everyone, there is little incentive not to so for any individual.
It is what it is. It’s a phenomena that occurred as everyone become connected to everyone. Just have to get use it.
I built a sheet like this for a friend many years ago. She didn't buy into it and is still single. A simple 1-3 is excellent for comparing values. I also had it split between the profile, the written communication, and the in-person communication, then it took an average of those three with more weight on in-person and written.
Long story short, these sheets are a breeze to make and almost always prompt reconsideration for people that may have been dismissed from the start. A good way to find that diamond in the rough :)
I was going to judge this woman for making a spreadsheet, but then I remembered. I created my own version of this that is probably even more insane and weird. I have divided the archetypes of the dual male/female dyad as a matrix which is split into 14 separate god/goddess components. It's based on the Love Language book, where I thought there were more than 4. So a less crazy sounding title might be: 14 love languages. And the idea of finding someone is if they and I click on all 14, then she's marriage material.
There is some psychology behind it, but I don't want to give it all away in case I make it into a book or something. However, there are dark elements behind each of the 14, as well. Each of the 14 has a dark component and a light component for male and female. I also have a theory that all mentally healthy people display all 14, when they are in love with each other, even if those languages don't click or are more light or dark. I don't buy into the idea of not displaying other love languages. Or maybe I do for other people, but I want more than that. I know I've had a relationship where love was shown in 14 love language ways. Any time it was only 1 language shown, it usually meant the relationship was immature and hadn't developed yet, or was on the rocks and on life support. In its most pragmatic form, it's really just a way for me to take the temperature of the relationship.