Relationship troubles
Hello, I am using a throwaway account since I don't want this account publicly associated with the rest of my Internet persona. Some identifying info will be fudged for the sake of keeping as anonymous as possible.
Me and my partner of nine years have been constantly fighting about little things these days. The fights have started from shallow stuff. From my perspective, it usually starts out of silly things. One recurring thing is that sometimes, working from home, I want some hugs every now and then during the day. The problem is he's watching Netflix or whatever and doesn't want to be interrupted midmovie. He complains I asked for them too frequently, which is fair. But I think the cause is when he does accept my proposal to hug, I'm just the one hugging him and he's still watching the movie. Gives me a tap in the back of what objectively could be a hug but there is just no emotion.
Alright, getting annoyed is one thing and should be easy to fix. However, he does some variant of "escaping the conversation". Whether it's leaving the room suddenly or answering questions in what I think is bad faith. All of these, in his head, I know he has a rationalization. Leaving the room, according to him, is good for calming down. And he's read that somewhere. Can't refute that. But what I try to explain, and am probably not explaining well, is that he just can't leave me like that because it feels like he doesn't care about it. I find it very disrespectful, it makes me angry, and it just elevates what could have been a quick discussion to some big blown-up fight where no one is really sure anymore how it started or why it dials up to 11 very quickly.
I've recently started opening up to friends out of desperation. He "does not like" that our friends know about our business. Relationship troubles and all. I understand, and I tried to respect this wish for the nine years we've been together. But now I'm desperate, I did start talking about it with friends. They gave me a lot of insights that I didn't have before and they pinpointed that the biggest obstacle we have is proper communication.
In the beginning, I talk and let him talk. But his responses are one-liners like "yes" or "sure". Which is completely ambiguous if it is in agreement to what I just said or if it is just to signify that he's listening. This gave me the tendency to talk more. Because either the conversation finishes there, which according to him is already concluded because he agreed to what I wanted. The thing that is lacking is some sort of feeling of warmth or empathy. In principle, "yes" already does the "admin part" but "yes I understand what you mean and I will try to do better" takes care of the emotional side. This is something that I have tried explaining but unfortunately in vain. Maybe it's his blind side.
I don't think anything of what he's doing is malicious or intentionally done to make me angry. I think it's just how he is. I don't think he realizes it. And as someone who cares for him, I hope he does.
The status now is that we are "broken up". I'd like to mark that with an asterisk because our fights these past few weeks end up with someone saying they want to break up. It has since elevated to "we are breaking up". It's getting tiring. I know that this relationship is down in the gutter. However, I am still optimistic for that Disney ending where we all realize our problems and live happily ever after.
But yeah. I really don't know what I want in posting this. I think I just need to pass the time since we are both currently in the same apartment. It's big enough that we have our own rooms for these trying times. Advice and analyses and opinions are certainly welcome. Obviously, there's bias for me since I wrote it. So yeah. Open to anything. Thanks for reading in any case.
First I want to say I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. It sounds very difficult, and from my own experience, I'm sure it is.
I've seen a lot of comments already that suggest that your relationship is "over". I want to offer you a different perspective. But I want to preface that by saying that no one can tell you what the right thing to do is, and I don't mean any judgment about your specific situation with the comments I put below. I hope the best for you and your partner, but what the best is will ultimately be up to you two and not some Internet stranger.
What is possible also depends on what you and your partner are willing to do to change and compromise. And sometimes, the other person just won't do it, and then it might be time to leave.
Finally, nothing I've written here would apply if your partner was abusive or you were unsafe in your relationship. I didn't see any indication about that in your post, but I want to make that clear.
My wife and I are at 19 years, and our relationship has ebbed and flowed over the years.
When we start to drift apart, the best remedy is sincere effort in coming together to listen to each other, and it's very difficult to do that without outside help. We have been fortunate to have the resources, in both time and money, to get that help when we needed it.
One time, we did a 15 week marriage class which meant for every week, we:
More recently, it has involved
My main point in in mentioning this is that it's going to take a lot of committed effort over a relatively long period of time to find your way back to each other. These problems did not appear overnight, and they're not going to disappear overnight either. Solving these problems is going to require significant commitment and significant forgiveness from both of you.
To put that into perspective, when our daughter was born, my wife was home with her, and I was working at a brand new startup. I sincerely doing my best to support her, but my idea of what was supportive to her was at odds with what she actually needed. I think she was miserable for about a year, maybe longer, before we were able to work it out.
Later, I became the stay at home Dad and she went back to work after being a stay-at-home mom for 9 years. It was a huge adjustment, and despite having been on the other side of it, neither of us was very good at meeting the other's needs when our roles changed. There was about a year where I felt almost totally indifferent to her. But what I remembered was that year before, so I gave it time.
Eventually, we were able to get back into therapy. It led to some pretty amazing breakthroughs, and it was a huge relief for me to "get her back".
Now we're both working full time, and we're back in therapy to find ways to work together. It's been great lately despite the increase in stressors, because it really feels like we're rowing in the same direction.
The other perspective I can offer is that our needs to change as we age, as we learn new things, as different things become important to us. So it doesn't have to be that one person is right and one person is wrong. It's more like (I am growing) and (she is growing) and without being intentional about it, it's easier to grow apart than to grow together.
A few words on couples therapy:
Going to therapy with the expectation that you are going to fix your partner's problems and that will make you happy is a recipe for failure. I'm not saying you or your partner think this way, but it's a very common sentiment I hear when I talk to people about couples therapy.
In our marriage class, they used to say "draw a circle around yourself and work on everyone in that circle." The point is that couples therapy, and repairing relationships in general, is about mutual compromise. But the only person's behavior you can affect is yours. So it's really about going to listen and sincerely reflecting about your own behavior, and hoping that the other person can do the same.
The other thing a good therapist will do is help you identity patterns (usually patterns of conflict) in your relationship and help you and your partner develop tools that you can use to change them.
Thank you for this alternate perspective I appreciate it and naively or not (time will tell) I would like to say I’m cautiously optimistic about the situation.
We are currently not talking right now at his request since he says he needs to figure out his life and why he doesn’t seem to be happy about anything these days.
But as soon as we start again, then I will weigh it out and see what to do next.
I find threads like this on the Internet are often unable to capture enough of the context or nuance that could lead to comments feeling anything other than "it sounds over".
From what you've described, it doesn't sound like your partner meets, or is interested in meeting your emotional needs. It sounds like they are checked out and not interested in addressing any issues in your relationship.
Is it possible you're just together through inertia at this point? Or sunk cost fallacy?
Ask yourself if you wouldn't be happier to separate, have some time for yourself and eventually look to meet someone who better matches who you are today.
In my experience, people change but only gradually. It took nearly ten years to go from where they were to how they are now. How long would it take to get to where you want them, if they are even willing?
Thank you for the kind reply.
From the beginning, the signs were already there. I don't know why I thought it would get better. Classic mistake I guess. By signs, I mean he didn't want public displays of affection. And I attributed this to just him having newly come out. So I thought I could live with it.
You're right that it might be inertia and sunk-cost fallacy.
Although, he has always been willing to improve and be better and I believe him. Just that I guess he's bad at it.
I think there's already a lot of good advice in this thread. I'm sorry you're going through this, it sounds very difficult for both of you.
A couple of things:
I have been in a few of the dynamics you've described. I dated a guy who was not into physical affection and would be visibly frustrated if I asked for a hug. That same guy also did not like when I would discuss information about our relationship with others. And I'm a person who sometimes needs a break during arguments, because I get too worked up and I can't think straight anymore, and so I need a "time-out" of sorts sometimes. This has driven some people crazy, and so these days I either power through it, ask for a ten minute "recess", or try to find ways to de-escalate. So I feel like I have a glimmer of insight into what you might be feeling.
I think the thing that stands out to me most is that your partner, from your description, seems turned "inward" and doesn't seem to be as engaged in your relationship. If you are primarily the person making requests and explaining your needs, and he either gives one-word answers or becomes overwhelmed and leaves the room, it sounds like he is either not invested in your relationship...or he doesn't feel able to express his own feelings and needs to you. Whatever the current communication dynamic is, it seems to have broken down completely for him, and he is unable to participate. This is where counselling seems like it could help - getting toward the root cause of what's going on with him, how he's feeling, what he wants, and how he can feel able and empowered to tell you what he thinks seem really important. It's not clear from your description if this is a dynamic that has been there for a long time or if it's changed over time, but finding a way to sit back, encourage him, and listen without interrupting seems really important. If you are broken up, I'm not sure whether you'll ever get there, but it's something to think about for next time.
The other thing that stood out to me is the ramping up of arguments into 11 territory, the de-escalation by leaving on his part, and the frequent invocation of ending the relationship during arguments. These seem like good reasons to seek therapy (and if you're able, it sounds like you should for yourself regardless), but I would be concerned that little arguments constantly blow up into big ones, and both partners invoke breaking up often. That suggests to me that you haven't figured out a way to de-escalate the situation verbally, or you are each so invested in your own hurts that you can no longer see and hear the other's. That's a big problem. If your partner feels unable to express their feelings and issues, that could be contributing to this dynamic - not to sound accusatory at all, but what is your thought process when these blowups happen? Periodically my spouse and I will get into a nitpicky period, and I try to verbalize "why are we arguing about this? Is this something we really care about? Or are we resentful about something else? I don't want to argue with you.". My husband is double plus ungood at de-escalating arguments, but if I recognize that things are getting out of control, he will allow me to put on the brakes so we can figure out why we're actually upset. I accept that role if it allows us to have a more stable dynamic. It may be worth thinking about what might be underlying your intense arguments - if you are feeling emotionally unfulfilled, or your partner doesn't seem invested, or there's some other resentment or unhappiness that's fueling your unhappiness. If you do get back together, I would think hard too about invoking "breakup" in a conversation - that's the sort of thing I would only bring up if I was at my absolute wit's end, because ending a relationship is a pretty irreversible decision, and will permanently change your relationship dynamic, even if you do get back together. It's not a good idea to throw that term around casually, but if you both really meant it, clearly there's a lot of work to be done, and a lot of changes to be made
I don't know what the answer is, and I don't know if things are salvageable, but at the very least you can use this time to think hard about yourself, what you need, and maybe the things your partner needed that you may have missed. What could have been done differently along the way? What can you do differently for a future relationship? I wish you well, and hope you're able to find comfort.
I will preface by acknowledging that I dont know anything about your partner so this is pure speculation.
What you say about him escaping the conversation sounds like an avoidant attachment style. I struggle with this as well, far more than most people, I would imagine.
In my experience my avoidant tendencies are a result of me not having faith that the other person will really listen to me or care about what I am saying, the argument will just go on until I either give in or walk away, so I choose to do one of those as soon as possible.
From how you describe it, it seems that your partner is not particularly into physical displays of intimacy, and that leaves you feeling unfulfilled in the relationship. From his perspective, it may seem that he has already tried compromising with you on this, allowing those moments of physical intimacy even if he is not particularly into it. So when you bring up that you still feel unsatisfied, to him it may feel like trying to accomodate you only resulted in you asking for more, which is why he avoids the conflict.
This is not a sustainable way to handle disagreements, as you have realized. These unresolved issues just fester and get more frustrating over time, and if you cant break this communication barrier then it might be an incompatible relationship.
If your partner is not engaging much in these discussions, and giving one word answers, it might be incumbent upon you to lead with offering alternate solutions. This is not an easy ask and requires a strong sense of empathy so you can anticipate his needs without him saying them out loud. Some people just need that kind of assistance when it comes to emotional communication.
For this issue with hugs, a possible compromise would be that you agree to not interrupt his netflix watching, and wait for the end of an episode to request a hug, but in return you expect him to be more attentive to you when that does happen. By offering that concession up front, rather than waiting for him to negotiate for it, it might give him reassurance that engaging in these discussions would be worth his while.
Or maybe not, maybe youve already been doing that and it hasnt worked either.
The question I would ask myself is, when you say that these situations could have ended with a quick discussion, what does that ideal discussion look like? Does it mostly work out in your favor, or is it an equitable solution that makes you both happy?
But then again, maybe its not anyones fault, and this is just a sign that your relationship has reached its natural sunset.
Thank you for the speculation. Yours, at least, is as close as it can get to what his situation is.
The thing is, I think it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is what happens in his mind, and it happened one time because I did not know how to end the argument or I had the feeling that he just wanted to "get it over with" and agree to everything I said.
This is something that I feel is happening indeed.
Maybe we were just at the end of our ropes but we had a discussion about this but it didn't really bump up.
That's a very sad thought, it could be that. But stupid as I am, I might drag it on until I'm 99.99% sure it's that. Don't want to regret anything.
Thanks again for the kind words.
Physical compatbility is important in a relationship and you two may not be compatible in that regard.
My wife is very into physical affection and really needs a lot of hugs, squeezes, kisses, etc to feel validated. I like those things, but they're not super important to me, but I care about her and her wellbeing, so I make the effort to ensure she gets those things, even though I definitely don't do it enough for her. That said, it's about making the effort to do it and making sure her needs are met, because she's my partner, my teammate and I want to make sure she's in tip-top shape so we can both fulfill our potential.
There's lots of things I do for my wife, just because I know it's a necessity for her and I'm sure it's the same for her when it comes to my needs. But that's what a partnership is about, compromise and understanding. It sounds to me, from the outside that there isn't a lot of that going on here and your relationship has run its course. It's unfortunate to hear, but it sounds like your emotional needs aren't being met and it's going to continue down this path in the most likely scenario.
Yeah. So we “broke up” yesterday. I will give it some time because he needs time to be alone to figure out what he really wants.
I will not wait an indefinite amount of time to make his final final decision but I think the window I showed made him out to be some person who didn’t make any effort. And I admit that’s a limit of posting my story on the Internet.
He does make some effort but sometimes it misses the target. And I think, perhaps naively, that it can be made. But it’s not gonna be overnight indeed. Admittedly, I am a mess now so my opinions change by the hour. Who knows?
Just my 2¢ coming from personal experience not professional.
I regret doing that exact thing. There's no way to avoid all regret, that comes with loss and the grief. But in hindsight, I deeply regret doing everything I could to hold a relationship "together" when it was really just me clinging on to what I hoped or wanted to be present but was no longer there (if it had ever been.).
Relationships take work from everyone involved in them. Do you really want to be with someone who appears to be unwilling to put that work in at this point? Are you wanting to stay because of how things are or because of how you imagine they could be if you say the right combination of things to make your partner change?
I am obviously basing this only on the small window you've shared of your life. And I am not claiming to know the right choice for you. But I have deep regrets about continuing on in certain situations because it really was me not respecting myself or thinking I deserved to have effort put in for me.
My degree is in counseling and I do generally recommend therapy, individual (as well as couples) if that is available to you. It's not a magic "fix" but it does give you a person whose whole intent is to support you in figuring out what you want and who will eventually know you well enough to challenge you if you fall into destructive patterns.
Yes thank you. Indeed it is a small window and I don’t blame Internet strangers to have such a warped view of my relationship. It is after all my fault for not being to articulate everything.
Thank you for your words. I’d like to think that I am someone who would know when the good time is to really stop. But I also am someone who wants to push things to the very end because I think with my personality currently, I would regret having not tried more. But who knows?
Theres no shame in wanting to hold onto a relationship youve been cultivating for almost a decade.
In terms of regrets, consider this though: If the two of you mutually agree now that your relationship wont work out, you might end it amicably and still be able to maintain a friendship afterward. That could be a good thing if this is an important person who you want to keep in your life.
If you're into self-help books, I grabbed a copy of Fight Right from my local library and have been reading that. They address a lot of the things that you've brought up as being pain points.
One of the more important things is that if you're getting into lots of fights about little things, there's likely some bigger underlying issue that neither of you two recognize (consciously).
One thing I find interesting in these kind of situations is how hard it is to see ones own behaviour as problematic and unhelpful to the situation.
In the example here I would consider wanting and asking for a hug from a person that is not enthusiastically giving it as quite problematic.
And since the only person present from this relationship is you I am more interested in thinking and talking about how you contribute to the situation and what you might change.
I don't think it's that strange - it's very common for two people in a relationship to not have the same libido, or to not necessarily be super into sex at the same time, but often a conversation can help illuminate if one partner's needs can be met without causing the other distress. There are plenty of other examples of compromise in relationships (chores, activities, social behaviour, love languages) and people get by ok. It may be appropriate to ask whether the partner wants to give hugs, but OP has acknowledged that receiving hugs and other forms of physical affection are important to them - if the partner genuinely does not want to do it and is uncomfortable showing physical affection, they may be incompatible, but nine years in I would also hope that if it was that much of an issue it would have been clearly articulated much earlier.
I'm sorry, it seems I didn't manage to express myself clearly.
I don't find it strange that there is a problem in a relationship.
I find it interesting that, from what I can tell, the problem is almost always framed as:
Rather than
To me, there is something important about taking responsibility for oneself, ones needs and wants, and the situation; that I often find lacking.
[Edit] added ; to make the last sentence a tiny bit clearer
I think it's a difficult balance. On one hand, many people probably feel uncomfortable asking for something from a partner, especially if they feel they may be needy or taking too much. On the other hand, I think it's healthy to be able to express one's needs to their partner - depending on how they ask, it can be a reasonable act of communication, but if done poorly, it can be coercive and inappropriate. It's very hard to tell from the outside what that dynamic is, and unfortunately, I think in many cases someone's reasonable ask may appear to be unreasonable from the outside.
Oral sex I think is a common sticking point in many relationships, but I think it's reasonable to request this from a partner even if it's not their favourite activity. (They of course have a right to say no, and to risk getting dumped.)
An extreme example: I dated a very abusive man for way too long. He was coercive toward me regarding his sexual needs, and he revealed to me later that he knew he was asking too much of me (and I think that was part of his enjoyment). In retrospect, I should have set firmer boundaries/left that relationship must earlier, and, as you say, he should have found a different way to meet his needs.
On the other hand, I expressed to him that I would appreciate being treated with respect, and for him to treat me nicely. He would do this periodically, but admitted he just didn't care enough to make a regular effort. On one hand, I should have left a lot earlier when I realized he was such a shithead. But I also think it was appropriate for me to ask for respect from a person who supposedly loved me. I don't think that's something I could have "taken responsibility for" independently of him.
Is this a case where OP is physically assaulting their partner through unwanted touch? I don't know. Is this a case where the partner is a lazy asshole and can't even be bothered to make a basic token gesture of affection? I don't know. Is this a case where OP had a compromise on physical affection that no longer works for the partner? I don't know. But I don't feel comfortable assuming that OP is making some kind of mistake, especially because I think requesting physical affection from an undemonstrative partner is pretty common (and mentioned elsewhere in this thread as a reasonable compromise for that person).
marriage counselling would be a good idea. If they aren't into it, then I'd say they lack the proper mindset for a relationship.
I can appreciate not wanting to be disrupted for affection. If you're busy working away at something and you get the same disruption, its annoying.
Ultimately, you're arguing because you want to be closer with them --- but have you said as much? I'm probably projecting, but they sound depressed.
I went through marriage counselling before I divorced and it was awesome. Not in the 'we are resolving our issues' but it really showed me their mindset for the relationship and how dramatically different we were in our approach to relationships. I was out about a year later, but at least I knew I gave it a proper chance.
When one person is no longer interested in investing in the relationship and touch changes to fully undesirable, it’s over. From what you’ve described, the relationship is over. Can you move in with a friend until you can formally sever finances?
Yes, I'm finding solutions to move in with a friend temporarily. I am not in my home country and I have friends but not friends-friends if you know what I'm saying. So I feel a bit scared and timid to oblige them but yes I know it has to be done.
My partner is and has always been very particular about touch. Dunno if it's a personality thing but he hasn't been quite comfortable with public displays of affection. It's been like that for a long time. And he's fine with hugs but not as often as me.