I wore uniforms all throughout my K12 education. We were a poor family. Uniforms were a godsend. It levels the playground for everyone. We didn't have money to buy good clothes for each and every...
I wore uniforms all throughout my K12 education. We were a poor family. Uniforms were a godsend.
It levels the playground for everyone. We didn't have money to buy good clothes for each and every day. Many were similar, many others were better off, some where rich.
Uniforms meant that at least one of the many areas where kids compete and judge each other was eliminated. We'd have free-dress days, like at the end of the semester; that'd be my nightmare. What to wear? Why I don't have the clothes that guy has? Why is most of my stuff ill-fitting gifts from extended family or stuff some older kid can't wear anymore?
Eventually we were better off, and if I was older back then I could say "F u this is what I have alright!", but as an adolescent you can't do it. Uniforms were like UBI for schoolkids, everybody looked the same. You could embellish that basic attire with accessories or whatnot, or your rucksack could be an Eastpak or Nike, but still, the most important thing, the actual clothes, did not create a teenage caste system and that was helpful.
Well put. I went to a Catholic high school and was generally negative about the uniforms as a kid. But thinking back on it, I appreciate the structure it helped create. The school was a phenomenal...
Well put. I went to a Catholic high school and was generally negative about the uniforms as a kid. But thinking back on it, I appreciate the structure it helped create. The school was a phenomenal learning environment, mostly very respectful, and very clean—I'm sure you can achieve that without uniforms, but it's easy to see how they helped to cultivate that atmosphere.
Socially, I agree with your assessment. I think the positives (socioeconomic fashion equality, helping students adapt to structure, self-expression through other outlets than clothing) outweigh the negatives (restricted expression through clothing, forced conformity to traditional gender norms, conformity in general). Though I admit I was definitely a step behind on my fashion game when I got to college. Took me quite a while to redevelop my sense of style.
I, too, went to Catholic school K-12, fully uniformed the entire time. While I think I understand the gripes against uniforms (cost, depersonalization, forcing new outlets), I very much took...
I, too, went to Catholic school K-12, fully uniformed the entire time. While I think I understand the gripes against uniforms (cost, depersonalization, forcing new outlets), I very much took comfort in the uniform.
While the popular kids were always trying to find ways to make uniforms “slutty” (I don’t use that term lightly, that’s how it was used by the girls themselves then, the guys didn’t seem to mind), I was perfectly content with the lack of choice in physical expression.
I was a quite lonely kid for most of my upbringing, and despite having an older sister, I didn’t have a meaningful experience with her to give any useful advice towards women. Perhaps my ideas on uniforms are flawed because of it.
That being said, dealing with others in a uniform does instill self confidence. You’re no longer representing yourself, but the collective. This can be very positive, like a sports team wearing the same uniform, but admittedly a potential negative as well, as seen by the Zimbardo experiments.
I agree with uniforms in schools because they allow kids to develop on their own and not have a constant worry about what the current school culture finds “cool”. Instead, that social interaction can happen outside of school, which is when real social interactions happen anyways.
As someone who didn’t “come into their own” until college, it was good to have uniforms remove stress/judgment from my daily life. For others, maybe it caused more strife, but I think overall a uniform has benefits for the unrecognized students of society, and the rest that are succumb to it might be tempered by the consistency.
You're perfectly right. Same here. The kind that frequents this school aren't the fickle nose-in-the-air type fortunately, but when I see them get ready for long weekends and vacations there's the...
You're perfectly right. Same here. The kind that frequents this school aren't the fickle nose-in-the-air type fortunately, but when I see them get ready for long weekends and vacations there's the equivalent of several hundred $/€ on every one of them. We don't have strict uniforms but a dresscode not to deviate from that specifically says what's allowed, and no brand/label/designer rubbish. I don't see those make this kind of clothes anyway, but still, it's nice. It's as you said, it renders everybody outwardly equal (no make-up or weird hair either); and forces expression by personality instead of Hey I just got a $2,000 haircut, look at meeee.
I grew up in the UK, where school uniform is almost universal, and I absolutely hated it. It made me feel utterly interchangeable and un-cared about as an individual, it was physically...
I grew up in the UK, where school uniform is almost universal, and I absolutely hated it. It made me feel utterly interchangeable and un-cared about as an individual, it was physically uncomfortable, and the meticulous enforcement of the absolute minutiae of the rules was a clear signal that, as much as anything else, it was about discipline - far above and beyond any arguments of practicality.
I know there are bigger battles to fight, bigger problems out there, but even decades later I am outright angry that conformity was valued so far above creativity or individuality. It was and is a symbol of everything wrong with modern education, and the message it sends genuinely upsets me to this day.
Also increasingly important: accessories such as hairbands, novelty socks and backpacks that help express “the energy of youth,” Dorronsoro said.
Is this not a bitterly sad thing to read? That so much of a child's energy and individuality is stifled and driven out that they are reduced to desperately trying to express themselves through the few accessories that aren't strictly controlled?
I might suggest that there may have been deeper issues at your school than a required shirt and tie. I wore a uniform too and it was just some clothes I wore to school. Sure, you didn't want to...
It made me feel utterly interchangeable and un-cared about as an individual,
I might suggest that there may have been deeper issues at your school than a required shirt and tie. I wore a uniform too and it was just some clothes I wore to school. Sure, you didn't want to get spotted by Mrs Mountfield if your shirt was untucked or your tie "too untidy" but it really wasn't that much of a thing. It made getting dressed easier.
so much of a child's energy and individuality is stifled and driven out
Clothes. It's just clothes. Clothes only required to be worn for 6-8 hours a day five days a week. Clothes don't stop children drawing, writing, making music, painting, singing, dancing, imagining - any number of creative outlets.
Partially yes, partially no. You're 100% correct that uniform wasn't the only issue; my school experience was something that I wouldn't wish upon anyone, and it left more than its share of scars....
Partially yes, partially no. You're 100% correct that uniform wasn't the only issue; my school experience was something that I wouldn't wish upon anyone, and it left more than its share of scars. I'm probably more sensitive to this than most, and I readily accept that.
But clothes aren't just clothes. They're expression, they're identity, they're a vast part of culture and subculture right up there with food, language, and music. They're one of the few things that a child or teenager might actually have control over in an otherwise highly regimented life, and even putting aside my own emotional take on the issue I don't think it's unreasonable to value that.
Clothes don't stop children drawing, writing, making music, painting, singing, dancing, imagining - any number of creative outlets.
True enough. Many schools have cut away most or all of those things, though, and I know I wasn't the only one of my peers who was desperate for any kind of outlet, however small, to express myself.
What if all I can express is my poverty, my lack of resources to express anything? What if I'm barely able to make ends meet and the last thing I need is a constant fight with my kid(s) who...
What if all I can express is my poverty, my lack of resources to express anything? What if I'm barely able to make ends meet and the last thing I need is a constant fight with my kid(s) who naturally will constanly want clothes that will impress their colleagues? Give my toplevel comment a read, I think it'll help change your mind.
I deliberately steered around that part of the conversation because I've found that it often ends up with a four Yorkshiremen debate about who had it hardest, but since you mentioned it directly:...
I deliberately steered around that part of the conversation because I've found that it often ends up with a four Yorkshiremen debate about who had it hardest, but since you mentioned it directly: I, too, grew up poor. I was bullied. I've thought long and hard about the underlying causes and the ways it could be mitigated, and I don't believe that uniform had any significant positive effect.
Of course, we're deep into personal experience here, so it's hard to make sweeping statements, but what I saw was the uniform policy shifting the bullies' stated "reasons" for picking on an individual, without doing anything to actually change who they targeted or how prevalent the problem was.
Maybe I'm wrong - it certainly wouldn't be the first time! - but if I am then I will at least say it's not through lack of experience of the problem.
I never wore any uniforms to school, and that made clothes just another way to establish a social hierarchy. I don’t relish the creative freedom I possessed to bully or be bullied because...
I never wore any uniforms to school, and that made clothes just another way to establish a social hierarchy. I don’t relish the creative freedom I possessed to bully or be bullied because someone’s clothes were unfashionable or looked too cheap. Also, in my experience most kids don’t start to actively and regularly use clothes for expressing their individuality until puberty hits. But they will absolutely notice that the jacket their mom picked out for them is nicer-looking and more fashionable than the jacket Tom or Ali’s mom bought them.
Like you said, there are far more important ways to foster individuality and creativity. And if rules are enforced with sadistic glee, that sounds like a deeper issue that isn’t necessarily inherent to the existence of particular rules.
In England it's not just clothes though. Not wearing the tie will lead to punishment, which may include seclusion. UK education is pretty fucking brutal at the moment and while I think uniforms...
I might suggest that there may have been deeper issues at your school than a required shirt and tie
Clothes. It's just clothes
In England it's not just clothes though. Not wearing the tie will lead to punishment, which may include seclusion. UK education is pretty fucking brutal at the moment and while I think uniforms are probably a good idea there's clearly some really terrible working around them.
Also, it's clothes and hair, and the hair style policies disproportionately affect black children.
Breaking school rules leads to punishment is bad how? Why bother having rules at all if they're not enforced? That said, I do understand that there are always going to be certain teachers who are...
Not wearing the tie will lead to punishment, which may include seclusion.
Breaking school rules leads to punishment is bad how? Why bother having rules at all if they're not enforced?
That said, I do understand that there are always going to be certain teachers who are dicks about rules and the enforcement thereof, and if there's a race bias to that then that's double fucky - but rules are still rules.. You can't make uniform optional because some teachers are arseholes. The staff in question should be dealt with and if the rules need adjusting to deal with a modern population then that should definitely happen too. But none of that is a problem with uniforms per se, just with individual schools implementations.
fwiw I was one of the first boys in my school to wear my hair long (yeah, that dates me...). Certain members of staff did not like that, but while I was not cutting my hair my sister was agitating (successfully) for the girls uniform to include trousers so they couldn't really change one rule and not the other. But then that kind of thing is why we had a student council in the first place, and staff who listened - so the rules could keep up with the times.
I'm really not sure if you should bring this up with your local PTA or the UN, but OK if you honestly think people are being tortured or degraded for not wearing a tie then we probably can't...
I'm really not sure if you should bring this up with your local PTA or the UN, but OK if you honestly think people are being tortured or degraded for not wearing a tie then we probably can't continue this discussion..
It's a tie my dude. They're wearing the shirt and pants, who cares about the details and accessories beyond that. Can't make em all carbon copies. If they were drop kicking the uniform that'd be...
It's a tie my dude. They're wearing the shirt and pants, who cares about the details and accessories beyond that. Can't make em all carbon copies. If they were drop kicking the uniform that'd be one thing but there is no purpose in going after kids because their shirt's not tucked in.
The thing is, if you say "the uniform is X, Y and Z and is mandatory" and some kids decide to only wear X and Y but not Z, they're not following the rules. You can't just say "ah, some rules don't...
The thing is, if you say "the uniform is X, Y and Z and is mandatory" and some kids decide to only wear X and Y but not Z, they're not following the rules. You can't just say "ah, some rules don't apply because they're just details" because (a) why bother with rules at all and (b) kids really need boundaries setting, and enforcing. Let ties slip and next thing you'll get kids in sports shoes or grey trousers rather than black or whatever. Rules are rules. Set them, enforce them. By all means have regular discussions with the kids about what the rules are and how they might be changed, but until those rules are changed, those are the rules.
Not sure if you've ever worked anywhere with a dress code but you can't just rock up in a t-shirt when you're expected to be there in a suit and tie. That's part of what school is teaching, along with a wider lesson about how society works. Sometimes in the real world you have to do shit you don't want to and you just have to suck it up. That's a huge lesson to learn and we've all met adults who think various rules don't apply to them - and those people are generally assholes. "Ties are just details" isn't far from "orderly queues are just details", or "disabled parking spaces are just details" and while I'm sure you're not that kind of asshole to jump a line or park in a disabled space, one of the reasons some people are is because they think rules can just be ignored if they don't personally like them.
I mean personally, fuck ties. I haven't worn a tie since I was in school and I had to. Bloody stupid things. If I was creating a uniform policy there's no way it would include a tie (and tbh many schools no longer do). But that's not really the point.
We're clearly both being guided by our own respective school experiences here, but I'm inclined to encourage a little harmless civil disobedience in the situation where: The rules don't have a...
By all means have regular discussions with the kids about what the rules are and how they might be changed, but until those rules are changed, those are the rules.
We're clearly both being guided by our own respective school experiences here, but I'm inclined to encourage a little harmless civil disobedience in the situation where:
The rules don't have a demonstrable benefit or valid underlying reason (as you said, fuck ties!)
The students don't have any recourse to question or change the rules
That's part of what school is teaching, along with a wider lesson about how society works. Sometimes in the real world you have to do shit you don't want to and you just have to suck it up.
That logic always made me a little sad too: "real life is going to suck, so we're getting you ready for it by artificially making school just as bad". At a minimum, school could insulate the kids from some of the more petty parts of adulthood; at best, and I say this with both a knowing grin and a measure of seriousness, it could be teaching them to question authority at every step and hold it to account! Learn to demand more from your school, and continue demand more from those with power over you as an adult.
I'm not sure dress codes are really that big a deal. Life sucks in lots of ways, having to wear a shirt really isn't one of them. The shitty job you have to grind away at while wearing that shirt...
I'm not sure dress codes are really that big a deal. Life sucks in lots of ways, having to wear a shirt really isn't one of them. The shitty job you have to grind away at while wearing that shirt wouldn't be any less shitty in a t-shirt.
Also there are lots of rules which exist that don't suck, and just make everyone's lives a little better. Such as queuing politely. Obeying speed limits on roads. That sort of thing. Rules it really matters people learn how to follow. Without rules, both written and unwritten, life would be awful. It's the same reason libertarianism and anarchism are puerile and unrealistic philosophies.
I'm all for questioning authority, but I'm also in favour doing so effectively. By all means demand more from your school but do it in an effective and respectful way - if you think ties suck - create a presentation about that, get a petition going to change the rules, talk to students and staff and parents and so on. Bother the staff but do it in a constructive way. That's how you change things in the real world, not by just ignoring rules you don't like. That's how we got the rules at my school changed about wearing trainers after years of kids getting sent home to change - some students got together to petition the staff that leather shoes are expensive, uncomfortable and outdated, not to mention many people don't like wearing them. The staff countered with arguments that some trainers are gaudy (it was the 90s) and make the school look tacky, plus there'll be competition among students to always have the cutting edge (and pricey!) shoes that not all kids can afford. In the end the compromise - and that's probably one of the most important things to learn for adulthood - was we could wear plain black trainers or black leather shoes.
Or, break the rules and take the punishment. It almost certainly won't get you what you want, but I suppose that's also a lesson.
Call me a cynic/pessimist/general miserable git, but my view has always been that if a (non customer facing) office wouldn't even trust me to dress myself, it says a huge amount about their...
Call me a cynic/pessimist/general miserable git, but my view has always been that if a (non customer facing) office wouldn't even trust me to dress myself, it says a huge amount about their general attitude to and treatment of their staff. Does the shirt itself matter? Actually yes, to some, although not to others. Is it a huge red flag even if it's what you'd be happy wearing anyway? To me, a resounding yes.
As to the rest, I pretty much agree! There are without doubt plenty of valid and sensible rules that help society as a whole, and ignoring them would make a person an intolerable asshole. There are far more sensible and mature paths than just ignoring the rules outright as a first step.
The problem is that there are also a lot of people who see "because I said so" as valid reasoning, won't engage in good faith discussion, and see anyone who politely raises a question as disrespectful - especially when dealing with people younger than themselves.
I think a lot of this boils down to the fact that I've run into enough of the latter that I instinctively give the benefit of the doubt to their opposite!
I don't find it that much more bitterly sad than the fact that self-expression for children has to be mediated through their consumption preferences. At least they have a better shot at making and...
Is this not a bitterly sad thing to read? That so much of a child's energy and individuality is stifled and driven out that they are reduced to desperately trying to express themselves through the few accessories that aren't strictly controlled?
I don't find it that much more bitterly sad than the fact that self-expression for children has to be mediated through their consumption preferences. At least they have a better shot at making and customizing an arm-band than tailoring themselves a shirt.
That's an interesting angle, and one I genuinely hadn't considered! As you say, though, most people aren't going to be tailoring their own shirts - which means you're always "consuming" clothing...
That's an interesting angle, and one I genuinely hadn't considered! As you say, though, most people aren't going to be tailoring their own shirts - which means you're always "consuming" clothing one way or another, and freely choosing the ones you like doesn't make for a lesser or greater act of consumption.
"Free choice" in this regard is largely an illusion. The "choice" is dictated by a combination of advertising and peer-pressure. Even the conscious rejection of mainstream fashions is a reaction...
and freely choosing the ones you like doesn't make for a lesser or greater act of consumption.
"Free choice" in this regard is largely an illusion. The "choice" is dictated by a combination of advertising and peer-pressure. Even the conscious rejection of mainstream fashions is a reaction to those mainstream fashions and, in its own way, being dictated by them. The mechanisms of control are vaguer and more inscrutable, but they're still there.
What is any culture if not a series of norms that we choose to accept, modify or reject? I don't disagree with you on this one, but surely that thinking could be applied to almost all choices we make?
What is any culture if not a series of norms that we choose to accept, modify or reject? I don't disagree with you on this one, but surely that thinking could be applied to almost all choices we make?
Yeah, which is why I think putting tons of weight on uniforms as stifling individuality are kind of misplaced. Clothes actually are a fairly big deal, and I'm not sure it's really worth it to make...
Yeah, which is why I think putting tons of weight on uniforms as stifling individuality are kind of misplaced. Clothes actually are a fairly big deal, and I'm not sure it's really worth it to make kids have to negotiate that deal every single morning. If we want them to practice with trying on different forms of identity and push boundaries, I'd rather they be directed towards doing it through activities that highlight their own abilities and creativity rather than just buying stuff at the mall.
Not everyone is comfortable expressing themselves through abilities and creativity - in fact, not everyone is able or creative. I think it's unfair to entirely cut off one form of expression...
Not everyone is comfortable expressing themselves through abilities and creativity - in fact, not everyone is able or creative. I think it's unfair to entirely cut off one form of expression because "reasons".
If they're not particularly creative, I don't know if having to wear a uniform is really stifling much of anything. Kids find ways to express themselves within whatever framework you give them....
If they're not particularly creative, I don't know if having to wear a uniform is really stifling much of anything. Kids find ways to express themselves within whatever framework you give them. The trick is just making sure the framework channels it into ways that aren't negative or distracting, and I think most of the "but self-expression" complaining with uniforms really pales in comparison to the amount of bullying poor or minority kids get from not having uniforms and making "the wrong" choices in clothes.
If nothing else, this thread is serving as a good reminder of how much my own experiences shaped and somewhat limited my thinking. The uniform issue is one that the school could have changed at...
If nothing else, this thread is serving as a good reminder of how much my own experiences shaped and somewhat limited my thinking. The uniform issue is one that the school could have changed at near-zero cost or effort, so it was alway subconsciously filed under "possible" in my head - in a very real sense, allowing creativity there was the least they could have done.
The idea that they would have actively encouraged creativity and freedom of thought in activities at an institutional or curricular level, rather than just tolerating it in matters of appearance, was so alien (and would represent such a vast transformation) that it didn't even enter my mind as a possibility.
Yeah I was educated under both, uniforms while I grew up in India and freewheeling when I moved to the US. I really REALLY preferred the uniforms. Especially as an immigrant kid, it was impossible...
Yeah I was educated under both, uniforms while I grew up in India and freewheeling when I moved to the US. I really REALLY preferred the uniforms. Especially as an immigrant kid, it was impossible for me to even know what kinds of statements I was making by picking clothes. I was always a talkative and creative kid, but the "knowing how to dress" thing basically put the nail in the coffin of ways in which I could be otherized and made to feel apart from everyone else.
I'm infinitely glad I never had to wear uniforms in school, and I was one of the "poor" (relative to my peers; my family was lower middle class but we lived in the wealthiest county in the US at...
I'm infinitely glad I never had to wear uniforms in school, and I was one of the "poor" (relative to my peers; my family was lower middle class but we lived in the wealthiest county in the US at the time) kids who got mocked for the ugly, out of date clothes my grandma would buy at Sears for me until I was old enough to insist I choose what clothes I got as a gift.
Even to this day I find formal shirts with collars unbearable (even t-shirts that don't have loose necks feel like I'm being choked), I'm allergic to leather and nickel so most belts that aren't casual wear cause me to break out, and especially as a kid I hated wearing things that required shirts be tucked in (all of these were part of the uniforms at the schools I had friends at with them)-- they feel almost like a straitjacket to me and make learning near-impossible because I would keep getting distracted by the discomfort.
So unless a school did a casual uniform (a school t-shirt and chinos or similar, à la some casual workplace uniforms), I would still rather be teased but comfortable instead of stuck in a sea of identical-looking people being so uncomfortable that I can't learn.
I think there's a good argument to be made about self expression, but what troubles me most about this is how it reinforces the idea of binary genders and gender roles. Males and females are...
I think there's a good argument to be made about self expression, but what troubles me most about this is how it reinforces the idea of binary genders and gender roles. Males and females are clearly segregated and can be spotted from a distance. I'm sure this at the very least subconsciously influences how people are treated based on which gender/sex they are dressed as.
Agreed. It took awhile for me to realize I was trans but I know people are beginning to realize this at a younger age now since trans people are much more visible in society and resources are more...
Agreed. It took awhile for me to realize I was trans but I know people are beginning to realize this at a younger age now since trans people are much more visible in society and resources are more readily available. Everyone transitions differently, and uniforms make it difficult to transition in a way you might be comfortable with. Some people might want to grow out their hair and start wearing the opposite gender's clothing immediately, others might continue to wear their existing clothing until they are certain they will be accepted, and I doubt many administrators are thinking about having multiple gender neutral options, or about how accepting they will be of students who do not identify with their AGAB. (Then there's the tendency for dress codes/uniform rules to coincide with grooming restrictions like hair length and makeup which can really make it difficult to transition.)
Ultimately, these impose difficult restrictions on gender non-conforming individuals. Even with gender-neutral options, it can be harder to experiment with being non-binary or androgynous because gender roles become much more rigidly defined and suddenly buying a more neutral uniform would make it obvious you might be having questions about your identity.
I'm sympathetic to the idea of uniforms "leveling the playing field," but I can't justify it from a queer perspective. The ability to experiment in ways as small or as large as I would like to...
I'm sympathetic to the idea of uniforms "leveling the playing field," but I can't justify it from a queer perspective. The ability to experiment in ways as small or as large as I would like to with my presentation was infinitely valuable. I may have lost my mind without that. Even attempts to make it androgynous would have taken away that sliver of opportunity. Another complaint I can think of is that that level playing field is necessarily going to be yet another way of enforcing the dominant culture in a given area. It's a degree of forced assimilation, and in many areas calls back to dark recent history. Around me, for example, a move toward more uniforms in schools would be heavily associated with a return to the forced assimilation that took place in American Indian boarding schools, which was only legally ended in the 70s. Even if it's not a particularly "hot" issue in an area, a uniform will necessarily go along with some culture's norms to the exclusion of others. I can't justify that either.
In general, I also have an extreme distaste for uniforms because I value bodily autonomy. For the same reason I don't want people touching me without my consent, I don't want them deciding what I put on my body. To me that's pretty absolute, other social gains be damned.
The argument that this turns school into “work” is particularly funny to me, as work is now more casual than ever but the “uniform” of a gray flannel suit has been replaced by some combo of a...
The argument that this turns school into “work” is particularly funny to me, as work is now more casual than ever but the “uniform” of a gray flannel suit has been replaced by some combo of a hoodie and jeans.
I expressed my thoughts about this with regards to gender non-conforming individuals in a reply to Gaywallet, but I have some more bones to pick with this article. This quote seems baffling to me:...
I expressed my thoughts about this with regards to gender non-conforming individuals in a reply to Gaywallet, but I have some more bones to pick with this article. This quote seems baffling to me:
“I think it’s awesome,” said Duplessis, 38, an insurance agent. “She walks into day care and has an immediate sense of community. She belongs."
I cannot remember anything from my days in daycare, but I doubt I was really aware of what everyone else was wearing, much less cared all that much. Is the sense of community derived from the uniforms or is it from being among other kids? I'm guessing it would be the latter.
This sentence I found a bit disingenuous:
Uniforms, teachers say, have become a no-nonsense way to stave off distractions.
What kind of distractions are they referring to? Chances are it's women, as people don't tend to find branded t-shirts or ripped jeans "distracting" for more than a few seconds, but when I was in middle school and high school, teachers insisted that low-cut tops and short-shorts were drawing all the young mens' eyes away from their work. Spoiler alert: you get used to it pretty quickly, and being bisexual I had a lot more potential distractions, yet I did just fine. In marching band our director let us take off our shirts during practice, and seeing bare-chested guys and girls in sports bras didn't cause me to forget my sets or miss notes. Requiring uniforms is easier than banning skimpy clothing and making judgement calls when kids inevitably push the boundaries, though, so I can see why administrators would be tempted to take the easy way out.
I would have hoped uniforms would continue to die off, especially as our culture grows more understanding of gender issues. In addition, it places a burden on low-income students. This article portrays it as a money saver, but if the uniform requirements can't be met at a thrift store, you rely on charity. The school might give you a couple uniforms for free, but will they give you more if you outgrow them or it rips beyond repair before the year is up? Not everyone can afford to go "buying mandated polos and pants in bulk and splurging on accessories such as sneakers and backpacks."
School administrators say uniforms promote equality and cut costs because parents can buy one set of clothes for the year without having to worry about coordinating outfits or designer labels.
This is the most upper middle class thing I have ever read. "It's great, now I don't have to buy my kids carefully-paired designer clothes anymore!" My mother used to be obsessed with designer clothes until her parents started giving her a set amount of cash to buy clothes with. She could buy whatever she wanted but quickly realized how much farther her money would go if she stuck to clearance racks and thrift shops, and she could get herself some sweet treats and toys with the leftover money. Maybe these parents should consider trying that sometime.
Paywalled, but school uniform is normal here in the UK, even for 4-year-olds. Almost everyone wears a uniform until (usually) 16, sometimes 18 too depending on the school. Obviously there are...
Paywalled, but school uniform is normal here in the UK, even for 4-year-olds. Almost everyone wears a uniform until (usually) 16, sometimes 18 too depending on the school. Obviously there are uniform-free schools but they're a minority.
My child's school had a uniform policy that was just discontinued for the new academic year, after a two-month study and survey of students, staff, and parents. According to the school, the change...
My child's school had a uniform policy that was just discontinued for the new academic year, after a two-month study and survey of students, staff, and parents. According to the school, the change was to accommodate student identity struggles related to gender, race, culture, self-expression, and body image. Also noted were sensory concerns for some children, traditional uniform biases against the female gender, and cultural coding behind what constitutes "acceptable" clothing.
Only 7% of students surveyed were in favor of school uniforms, and 32% of the staff. Interestingly, 62% of families were in favor, so there's a bit of a disconnect there.
It wasn't that long ago that schools in my area adopted uniform policies. Now that we have some measurable results from that experiment, the pendulum is swinging back the other way.
So while I'm generally a soft supporter of uniforms, I can't help but be disappointed in how bland the choices are. A monochrome polo and pleated pants or skirts really doesn't have the same kind...
So while I'm generally a soft supporter of uniforms, I can't help but be disappointed in how bland the choices are. A monochrome polo and pleated pants or skirts really doesn't have the same kind of charm as the more classic uniform with a blazer and a school tie or whatever.
I suppose they wanted to keep it cheaper, though blazers are convenient because they're basically made to be tailored so as long as there is enough reserve fabric you can keep having it taken out.
I guess maybe they wanted to emphasize comfort and casualness while still having uniformity, but then they cut against that by making people tuck their polo shirts in. Tucked in polos automatically make you look like either a child or a very generic upper-middle class professional dad who plays golf and drives either a BMW or Mercedes. It's not at all good for a teenager.
If you have all the options in the world, why not just make the kids wear scrubs? They're basically designed for the environments kids deal with. They're super comfortable, very hard wearing and durable, and designed to be easily cleaned. They also look flattering on basically any body shape.
And if we wanted to really get weird with it, you can put them in flight-suits or coveralls.
Wore a uniform for a semester I did abroad during hs (School where I'm from had normal civilian dress code). And honestly, I think I prefered the uniform. It made getting ready in the morning...
Wore a uniform for a semester I did abroad during hs (School where I'm from had normal civilian dress code). And honestly, I think I prefered the uniform. It made getting ready in the morning quicker. Reduced garment-based bullying (for the most part). Comparatively, it lowered boundaries for cliques. Increased school pride. etc. etc.
I wore uniforms all throughout my K12 education. We were a poor family. Uniforms were a godsend.
It levels the playground for everyone. We didn't have money to buy good clothes for each and every day. Many were similar, many others were better off, some where rich.
Uniforms meant that at least one of the many areas where kids compete and judge each other was eliminated. We'd have free-dress days, like at the end of the semester; that'd be my nightmare. What to wear? Why I don't have the clothes that guy has? Why is most of my stuff ill-fitting gifts from extended family or stuff some older kid can't wear anymore?
Eventually we were better off, and if I was older back then I could say "F u this is what I have alright!", but as an adolescent you can't do it. Uniforms were like UBI for schoolkids, everybody looked the same. You could embellish that basic attire with accessories or whatnot, or your rucksack could be an Eastpak or Nike, but still, the most important thing, the actual clothes, did not create a teenage caste system and that was helpful.
Well put. I went to a Catholic high school and was generally negative about the uniforms as a kid. But thinking back on it, I appreciate the structure it helped create. The school was a phenomenal learning environment, mostly very respectful, and very clean—I'm sure you can achieve that without uniforms, but it's easy to see how they helped to cultivate that atmosphere.
Socially, I agree with your assessment. I think the positives (socioeconomic fashion equality, helping students adapt to structure, self-expression through other outlets than clothing) outweigh the negatives (restricted expression through clothing, forced conformity to traditional gender norms, conformity in general). Though I admit I was definitely a step behind on my fashion game when I got to college. Took me quite a while to redevelop my sense of style.
I, too, went to Catholic school K-12, fully uniformed the entire time. While I think I understand the gripes against uniforms (cost, depersonalization, forcing new outlets), I very much took comfort in the uniform.
While the popular kids were always trying to find ways to make uniforms “slutty” (I don’t use that term lightly, that’s how it was used by the girls themselves then, the guys didn’t seem to mind), I was perfectly content with the lack of choice in physical expression.
I was a quite lonely kid for most of my upbringing, and despite having an older sister, I didn’t have a meaningful experience with her to give any useful advice towards women. Perhaps my ideas on uniforms are flawed because of it.
That being said, dealing with others in a uniform does instill self confidence. You’re no longer representing yourself, but the collective. This can be very positive, like a sports team wearing the same uniform, but admittedly a potential negative as well, as seen by the Zimbardo experiments.
I agree with uniforms in schools because they allow kids to develop on their own and not have a constant worry about what the current school culture finds “cool”. Instead, that social interaction can happen outside of school, which is when real social interactions happen anyways.
As someone who didn’t “come into their own” until college, it was good to have uniforms remove stress/judgment from my daily life. For others, maybe it caused more strife, but I think overall a uniform has benefits for the unrecognized students of society, and the rest that are succumb to it might be tempered by the consistency.
You're perfectly right. Same here. The kind that frequents this school aren't the fickle nose-in-the-air type fortunately, but when I see them get ready for long weekends and vacations there's the equivalent of several hundred $/€ on every one of them. We don't have strict uniforms but a dresscode not to deviate from that specifically says what's allowed, and no brand/label/designer rubbish. I don't see those make this kind of clothes anyway, but still, it's nice. It's as you said, it renders everybody outwardly equal (no make-up or weird hair either); and forces expression by personality instead of Hey I just got a $2,000 haircut, look at meeee.
I grew up in the UK, where school uniform is almost universal, and I absolutely hated it. It made me feel utterly interchangeable and un-cared about as an individual, it was physically uncomfortable, and the meticulous enforcement of the absolute minutiae of the rules was a clear signal that, as much as anything else, it was about discipline - far above and beyond any arguments of practicality.
I know there are bigger battles to fight, bigger problems out there, but even decades later I am outright angry that conformity was valued so far above creativity or individuality. It was and is a symbol of everything wrong with modern education, and the message it sends genuinely upsets me to this day.
Is this not a bitterly sad thing to read? That so much of a child's energy and individuality is stifled and driven out that they are reduced to desperately trying to express themselves through the few accessories that aren't strictly controlled?
I might suggest that there may have been deeper issues at your school than a required shirt and tie. I wore a uniform too and it was just some clothes I wore to school. Sure, you didn't want to get spotted by Mrs Mountfield if your shirt was untucked or your tie "too untidy" but it really wasn't that much of a thing. It made getting dressed easier.
Clothes. It's just clothes. Clothes only required to be worn for 6-8 hours a day five days a week. Clothes don't stop children drawing, writing, making music, painting, singing, dancing, imagining - any number of creative outlets.
Partially yes, partially no. You're 100% correct that uniform wasn't the only issue; my school experience was something that I wouldn't wish upon anyone, and it left more than its share of scars. I'm probably more sensitive to this than most, and I readily accept that.
But clothes aren't just clothes. They're expression, they're identity, they're a vast part of culture and subculture right up there with food, language, and music. They're one of the few things that a child or teenager might actually have control over in an otherwise highly regimented life, and even putting aside my own emotional take on the issue I don't think it's unreasonable to value that.
True enough. Many schools have cut away most or all of those things, though, and I know I wasn't the only one of my peers who was desperate for any kind of outlet, however small, to express myself.
What if all I can express is my poverty, my lack of resources to express anything? What if I'm barely able to make ends meet and the last thing I need is a constant fight with my kid(s) who naturally will constanly want clothes that will impress their colleagues? Give my toplevel comment a read, I think it'll help change your mind.
I deliberately steered around that part of the conversation because I've found that it often ends up with a four Yorkshiremen debate about who had it hardest, but since you mentioned it directly: I, too, grew up poor. I was bullied. I've thought long and hard about the underlying causes and the ways it could be mitigated, and I don't believe that uniform had any significant positive effect.
Of course, we're deep into personal experience here, so it's hard to make sweeping statements, but what I saw was the uniform policy shifting the bullies' stated "reasons" for picking on an individual, without doing anything to actually change who they targeted or how prevalent the problem was.
Maybe I'm wrong - it certainly wouldn't be the first time! - but if I am then I will at least say it's not through lack of experience of the problem.
I never wore any uniforms to school, and that made clothes just another way to establish a social hierarchy. I don’t relish the creative freedom I possessed to bully or be bullied because someone’s clothes were unfashionable or looked too cheap. Also, in my experience most kids don’t start to actively and regularly use clothes for expressing their individuality until puberty hits. But they will absolutely notice that the jacket their mom picked out for them is nicer-looking and more fashionable than the jacket Tom or Ali’s mom bought them.
Like you said, there are far more important ways to foster individuality and creativity. And if rules are enforced with sadistic glee, that sounds like a deeper issue that isn’t necessarily inherent to the existence of particular rules.
In England it's not just clothes though. Not wearing the tie will lead to punishment, which may include seclusion. UK education is pretty fucking brutal at the moment and while I think uniforms are probably a good idea there's clearly some really terrible working around them.
Also, it's clothes and hair, and the hair style policies disproportionately affect black children.
Breaking school rules leads to punishment is bad how? Why bother having rules at all if they're not enforced?
That said, I do understand that there are always going to be certain teachers who are dicks about rules and the enforcement thereof, and if there's a race bias to that then that's double fucky - but rules are still rules.. You can't make uniform optional because some teachers are arseholes. The staff in question should be dealt with and if the rules need adjusting to deal with a modern population then that should definitely happen too. But none of that is a problem with uniforms per se, just with individual schools implementations.
fwiw I was one of the first boys in my school to wear my hair long (yeah, that dates me...). Certain members of staff did not like that, but while I was not cutting my hair my sister was agitating (successfully) for the girls uniform to include trousers so they couldn't really change one rule and not the other. But then that kind of thing is why we had a student council in the first place, and staff who listened - so the rules could keep up with the times.
Putting children into lengthy seclusion for minor infractions of arbitrary rules is a violation of their human rights, specifically article 37b.
I'm really not sure if you should bring this up with your local PTA or the UN, but OK if you honestly think people are being tortured or degraded for not wearing a tie then we probably can't continue this discussion..
It's a tie my dude. They're wearing the shirt and pants, who cares about the details and accessories beyond that. Can't make em all carbon copies. If they were drop kicking the uniform that'd be one thing but there is no purpose in going after kids because their shirt's not tucked in.
The thing is, if you say "the uniform is X, Y and Z and is mandatory" and some kids decide to only wear X and Y but not Z, they're not following the rules. You can't just say "ah, some rules don't apply because they're just details" because (a) why bother with rules at all and (b) kids really need boundaries setting, and enforcing. Let ties slip and next thing you'll get kids in sports shoes or grey trousers rather than black or whatever. Rules are rules. Set them, enforce them. By all means have regular discussions with the kids about what the rules are and how they might be changed, but until those rules are changed, those are the rules.
Not sure if you've ever worked anywhere with a dress code but you can't just rock up in a t-shirt when you're expected to be there in a suit and tie. That's part of what school is teaching, along with a wider lesson about how society works. Sometimes in the real world you have to do shit you don't want to and you just have to suck it up. That's a huge lesson to learn and we've all met adults who think various rules don't apply to them - and those people are generally assholes. "Ties are just details" isn't far from "orderly queues are just details", or "disabled parking spaces are just details" and while I'm sure you're not that kind of asshole to jump a line or park in a disabled space, one of the reasons some people are is because they think rules can just be ignored if they don't personally like them.
I mean personally, fuck ties. I haven't worn a tie since I was in school and I had to. Bloody stupid things. If I was creating a uniform policy there's no way it would include a tie (and tbh many schools no longer do). But that's not really the point.
We're clearly both being guided by our own respective school experiences here, but I'm inclined to encourage a little harmless civil disobedience in the situation where:
The rules don't have a demonstrable benefit or valid underlying reason (as you said, fuck ties!)
The students don't have any recourse to question or change the rules
That logic always made me a little sad too: "real life is going to suck, so we're getting you ready for it by artificially making school just as bad". At a minimum, school could insulate the kids from some of the more petty parts of adulthood; at best, and I say this with both a knowing grin and a measure of seriousness, it could be teaching them to question authority at every step and hold it to account! Learn to demand more from your school, and continue demand more from those with power over you as an adult.
I'm not sure dress codes are really that big a deal. Life sucks in lots of ways, having to wear a shirt really isn't one of them. The shitty job you have to grind away at while wearing that shirt wouldn't be any less shitty in a t-shirt.
Also there are lots of rules which exist that don't suck, and just make everyone's lives a little better. Such as queuing politely. Obeying speed limits on roads. That sort of thing. Rules it really matters people learn how to follow. Without rules, both written and unwritten, life would be awful. It's the same reason libertarianism and anarchism are puerile and unrealistic philosophies.
I'm all for questioning authority, but I'm also in favour doing so effectively. By all means demand more from your school but do it in an effective and respectful way - if you think ties suck - create a presentation about that, get a petition going to change the rules, talk to students and staff and parents and so on. Bother the staff but do it in a constructive way. That's how you change things in the real world, not by just ignoring rules you don't like. That's how we got the rules at my school changed about wearing trainers after years of kids getting sent home to change - some students got together to petition the staff that leather shoes are expensive, uncomfortable and outdated, not to mention many people don't like wearing them. The staff countered with arguments that some trainers are gaudy (it was the 90s) and make the school look tacky, plus there'll be competition among students to always have the cutting edge (and pricey!) shoes that not all kids can afford. In the end the compromise - and that's probably one of the most important things to learn for adulthood - was we could wear plain black trainers or black leather shoes.
Or, break the rules and take the punishment. It almost certainly won't get you what you want, but I suppose that's also a lesson.
Call me a cynic/pessimist/general miserable git, but my view has always been that if a (non customer facing) office wouldn't even trust me to dress myself, it says a huge amount about their general attitude to and treatment of their staff. Does the shirt itself matter? Actually yes, to some, although not to others. Is it a huge red flag even if it's what you'd be happy wearing anyway? To me, a resounding yes.
As to the rest, I pretty much agree! There are without doubt plenty of valid and sensible rules that help society as a whole, and ignoring them would make a person an intolerable asshole. There are far more sensible and mature paths than just ignoring the rules outright as a first step.
The problem is that there are also a lot of people who see "because I said so" as valid reasoning, won't engage in good faith discussion, and see anyone who politely raises a question as disrespectful - especially when dealing with people younger than themselves.
I think a lot of this boils down to the fact that I've run into enough of the latter that I instinctively give the benefit of the doubt to their opposite!
I don't find it that much more bitterly sad than the fact that self-expression for children has to be mediated through their consumption preferences. At least they have a better shot at making and customizing an arm-band than tailoring themselves a shirt.
That's an interesting angle, and one I genuinely hadn't considered! As you say, though, most people aren't going to be tailoring their own shirts - which means you're always "consuming" clothing one way or another, and freely choosing the ones you like doesn't make for a lesser or greater act of consumption.
"Free choice" in this regard is largely an illusion. The "choice" is dictated by a combination of advertising and peer-pressure. Even the conscious rejection of mainstream fashions is a reaction to those mainstream fashions and, in its own way, being dictated by them. The mechanisms of control are vaguer and more inscrutable, but they're still there.
What is any culture if not a series of norms that we choose to accept, modify or reject? I don't disagree with you on this one, but surely that thinking could be applied to almost all choices we make?
Yeah, which is why I think putting tons of weight on uniforms as stifling individuality are kind of misplaced. Clothes actually are a fairly big deal, and I'm not sure it's really worth it to make kids have to negotiate that deal every single morning. If we want them to practice with trying on different forms of identity and push boundaries, I'd rather they be directed towards doing it through activities that highlight their own abilities and creativity rather than just buying stuff at the mall.
Not everyone is comfortable expressing themselves through abilities and creativity - in fact, not everyone is able or creative. I think it's unfair to entirely cut off one form of expression because "reasons".
If they're not particularly creative, I don't know if having to wear a uniform is really stifling much of anything. Kids find ways to express themselves within whatever framework you give them. The trick is just making sure the framework channels it into ways that aren't negative or distracting, and I think most of the "but self-expression" complaining with uniforms really pales in comparison to the amount of bullying poor or minority kids get from not having uniforms and making "the wrong" choices in clothes.
If nothing else, this thread is serving as a good reminder of how much my own experiences shaped and somewhat limited my thinking. The uniform issue is one that the school could have changed at near-zero cost or effort, so it was alway subconsciously filed under "possible" in my head - in a very real sense, allowing creativity there was the least they could have done.
The idea that they would have actively encouraged creativity and freedom of thought in activities at an institutional or curricular level, rather than just tolerating it in matters of appearance, was so alien (and would represent such a vast transformation) that it didn't even enter my mind as a possibility.
Yeah I was educated under both, uniforms while I grew up in India and freewheeling when I moved to the US. I really REALLY preferred the uniforms. Especially as an immigrant kid, it was impossible for me to even know what kinds of statements I was making by picking clothes. I was always a talkative and creative kid, but the "knowing how to dress" thing basically put the nail in the coffin of ways in which I could be otherized and made to feel apart from everyone else.
I'm infinitely glad I never had to wear uniforms in school, and I was one of the "poor" (relative to my peers; my family was lower middle class but we lived in the wealthiest county in the US at the time) kids who got mocked for the ugly, out of date clothes my grandma would buy at Sears for me until I was old enough to insist I choose what clothes I got as a gift.
Even to this day I find formal shirts with collars unbearable (even t-shirts that don't have loose necks feel like I'm being choked), I'm allergic to leather and nickel so most belts that aren't casual wear cause me to break out, and especially as a kid I hated wearing things that required shirts be tucked in (all of these were part of the uniforms at the schools I had friends at with them)-- they feel almost like a straitjacket to me and make learning near-impossible because I would keep getting distracted by the discomfort.
So unless a school did a casual uniform (a school t-shirt and chinos or similar, à la some casual workplace uniforms), I would still rather be teased but comfortable instead of stuck in a sea of identical-looking people being so uncomfortable that I can't learn.
I think there's a good argument to be made about self expression, but what troubles me most about this is how it reinforces the idea of binary genders and gender roles. Males and females are clearly segregated and can be spotted from a distance. I'm sure this at the very least subconsciously influences how people are treated based on which gender/sex they are dressed as.
Agreed. It took awhile for me to realize I was trans but I know people are beginning to realize this at a younger age now since trans people are much more visible in society and resources are more readily available. Everyone transitions differently, and uniforms make it difficult to transition in a way you might be comfortable with. Some people might want to grow out their hair and start wearing the opposite gender's clothing immediately, others might continue to wear their existing clothing until they are certain they will be accepted, and I doubt many administrators are thinking about having multiple gender neutral options, or about how accepting they will be of students who do not identify with their AGAB. (Then there's the tendency for dress codes/uniform rules to coincide with grooming restrictions like hair length and makeup which can really make it difficult to transition.)
Ultimately, these impose difficult restrictions on gender non-conforming individuals. Even with gender-neutral options, it can be harder to experiment with being non-binary or androgynous because gender roles become much more rigidly defined and suddenly buying a more neutral uniform would make it obvious you might be having questions about your identity.
I'm sympathetic to the idea of uniforms "leveling the playing field," but I can't justify it from a queer perspective. The ability to experiment in ways as small or as large as I would like to with my presentation was infinitely valuable. I may have lost my mind without that. Even attempts to make it androgynous would have taken away that sliver of opportunity. Another complaint I can think of is that that level playing field is necessarily going to be yet another way of enforcing the dominant culture in a given area. It's a degree of forced assimilation, and in many areas calls back to dark recent history. Around me, for example, a move toward more uniforms in schools would be heavily associated with a return to the forced assimilation that took place in American Indian boarding schools, which was only legally ended in the 70s. Even if it's not a particularly "hot" issue in an area, a uniform will necessarily go along with some culture's norms to the exclusion of others. I can't justify that either.
In general, I also have an extreme distaste for uniforms because I value bodily autonomy. For the same reason I don't want people touching me without my consent, I don't want them deciding what I put on my body. To me that's pretty absolute, other social gains be damned.
The argument that this turns school into “work” is particularly funny to me, as work is now more casual than ever but the “uniform” of a gray flannel suit has been replaced by some combo of a hoodie and jeans.
I expressed my thoughts about this with regards to gender non-conforming individuals in a reply to Gaywallet, but I have some more bones to pick with this article. This quote seems baffling to me:
I cannot remember anything from my days in daycare, but I doubt I was really aware of what everyone else was wearing, much less cared all that much. Is the sense of community derived from the uniforms or is it from being among other kids? I'm guessing it would be the latter.
This sentence I found a bit disingenuous:
What kind of distractions are they referring to? Chances are it's women, as people don't tend to find branded t-shirts or ripped jeans "distracting" for more than a few seconds, but when I was in middle school and high school, teachers insisted that low-cut tops and short-shorts were drawing all the young mens' eyes away from their work. Spoiler alert: you get used to it pretty quickly, and being bisexual I had a lot more potential distractions, yet I did just fine. In marching band our director let us take off our shirts during practice, and seeing bare-chested guys and girls in sports bras didn't cause me to forget my sets or miss notes. Requiring uniforms is easier than banning skimpy clothing and making judgement calls when kids inevitably push the boundaries, though, so I can see why administrators would be tempted to take the easy way out.
I would have hoped uniforms would continue to die off, especially as our culture grows more understanding of gender issues. In addition, it places a burden on low-income students. This article portrays it as a money saver, but if the uniform requirements can't be met at a thrift store, you rely on charity. The school might give you a couple uniforms for free, but will they give you more if you outgrow them or it rips beyond repair before the year is up? Not everyone can afford to go "buying mandated polos and pants in bulk and splurging on accessories such as sneakers and backpacks."
This is the most upper middle class thing I have ever read. "It's great, now I don't have to buy my kids carefully-paired designer clothes anymore!" My mother used to be obsessed with designer clothes until her parents started giving her a set amount of cash to buy clothes with. She could buy whatever she wanted but quickly realized how much farther her money would go if she stuck to clearance racks and thrift shops, and she could get herself some sweet treats and toys with the leftover money. Maybe these parents should consider trying that sometime.
Paywalled, but school uniform is normal here in the UK, even for 4-year-olds. Almost everyone wears a uniform until (usually) 16, sometimes 18 too depending on the school. Obviously there are uniform-free schools but they're a minority.
My child's school had a uniform policy that was just discontinued for the new academic year, after a two-month study and survey of students, staff, and parents. According to the school, the change was to accommodate student identity struggles related to gender, race, culture, self-expression, and body image. Also noted were sensory concerns for some children, traditional uniform biases against the female gender, and cultural coding behind what constitutes "acceptable" clothing.
Only 7% of students surveyed were in favor of school uniforms, and 32% of the staff. Interestingly, 62% of families were in favor, so there's a bit of a disconnect there.
It wasn't that long ago that schools in my area adopted uniform policies. Now that we have some measurable results from that experiment, the pendulum is swinging back the other way.
So while I'm generally a soft supporter of uniforms, I can't help but be disappointed in how bland the choices are. A monochrome polo and pleated pants or skirts really doesn't have the same kind of charm as the more classic uniform with a blazer and a school tie or whatever.
I suppose they wanted to keep it cheaper, though blazers are convenient because they're basically made to be tailored so as long as there is enough reserve fabric you can keep having it taken out.
I guess maybe they wanted to emphasize comfort and casualness while still having uniformity, but then they cut against that by making people tuck their polo shirts in. Tucked in polos automatically make you look like either a child or a very generic upper-middle class professional dad who plays golf and drives either a BMW or Mercedes. It's not at all good for a teenager.
If you have all the options in the world, why not just make the kids wear scrubs? They're basically designed for the environments kids deal with. They're super comfortable, very hard wearing and durable, and designed to be easily cleaned. They also look flattering on basically any body shape.
And if we wanted to really get weird with it, you can put them in flight-suits or coveralls.
Should teachers wear uniform too ?
Wore a uniform for a semester I did abroad during hs (School where I'm from had normal civilian dress code). And honestly, I think I prefered the uniform. It made getting ready in the morning quicker. Reduced garment-based bullying (for the most part). Comparatively, it lowered boundaries for cliques. Increased school pride. etc. etc.