29 votes

Flirting for morons

24 comments

  1. [3]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [2]
      Grzmot
      Link Parent
      At the chance of turning this comment chain on the sexual harrassment women experience into what about the men (and considering the skew of Tildes' community to the male side and the fact that...

      At the chance of turning this comment chain on the sexual harrassment women experience into what about the men (and considering the skew of Tildes' community to the male side and the fact that your comment is already the top rated comment, it probably will), I'll say this:

      I'm 22, and am in a longterm relationship with a girl I love that I met in school, ya know, highschool sweethearts, going to prom together, et cetera, the whole thing. But should this relationship not last (we've had a short break before, not due to being incompatible, but due to geographical issues), I honestly have no fucking clue where to even begin in the dating scene. Dating apps are terrible for my mental health (the constant grind, the constant rejection due to the sheer number of "applicants" that women on those platforms get is insane), I don't go to clubs because I can't stand music that is so loud that it makes my eardrums want to commit suicide and when I meet up with friends we don't do it at a bar, we do it one of our apartments coz we usually do boardgame nights or just talk and you aren't bothered by loud music, the noise of other people etc.

      This eliminates most of the location where I think it's socially acceptable to go talk to stranger with romantic intentions. I have hobbies, I don't think I'm a boring person, but the fact is that I don't want to approach women in public coz it's gross and honestly at best you just come over as annoying and at worst as creepy.

      I get this whole idea that you shouldn't force things like this and I'm all on board when it comes to just waiting for the right person to come along, but living this I'd hypothetically get into my 2nd relationship when I'm in my thirties, and honestly that makes me really fucking anxious.

      10 votes
      1. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. Grzmot
          Link Parent
          I don't know. The best and most "natural" way would be I think through a hobby, but good luck if you're into something like chess lol. I feel like the best way to be happy is to not be hunting...

          We know about the wrong ways for a man to get into a relationship, but what's the right way now?

          I don't know. The best and most "natural" way would be I think through a hobby, but good luck if you're into something like chess lol.

          I feel like the best way to be happy is to not be hunting relationships all the time, like go into a date only expecting a good conversation and nothing else, and you'll be fine, but I'd have problem maneuvering myself into places and conversations where I could even ask someone out. I don't want to force myself to go to a bar or a club, because I'll just be miserable there and that isn't really the best basis to meet people. But then how the fuck are you supposed to broaden your social circles?

          Lonely, sex-starved young men seem to find more productive advice for their dating life from the alt-right than anywhere else, and that seems like a problem to me.

          It is, because the dating advice they get is laced with political messaging about gender roles and liberals bad and whatnot and the men lap it up because they think it's going to make them happy.

          Ultimately if you aren't happy on your own, you won't be happy in a relationship, but that statement also rings hollow to me, since everyone's looking for a relationship for a reason.

          4 votes
  2. [12]
    Adys
    Link
    I really like this as a rule: It's an excellent summary of what's appropriate versus not. I defend office dating a lot, and this is the first time I've seen the "line" so well-defined by someone....

    I really like this as a rule:

    don’t hit on people that are forced to operate in your personal space

    It's an excellent summary of what's appropriate versus not. I defend office dating a lot, and this is the first time I've seen the "line" so well-defined by someone.

    On the other hand, this:

    There are exceptions. If your bartender slips you a post-it note with “You are hot. Meet me in the freezer and let’s make sweet tender love to one another” you’re good to go.

    I don't see how a waiter/waitress hitting on a client is any more appropriate than a client hitting on the waiter/waitress. Be flirty, sure, but if you want to ask the person out, you do it off-shift.

    16 votes
    1. [8]
      mrbig
      Link Parent
      Servers frequently have no choice but to serve you. You can easily request another server or go to another restaurant. There’s a power imbalance that tips torwards the client.

      I don't see how a waiter/waitress hitting on a client is any more appropriate than a client hitting on the waiter/waitress

      Servers frequently have no choice but to serve you. You can easily request another server or go to another restaurant.

      There’s a power imbalance that tips torwards the client.

      11 votes
      1. [5]
        Adys
        Link Parent
        This doesn't make it more appropriate. At best, it makes it less of a problem for the person who gets hit on. Replace "hitting on" with "touching their butt". Is it "more appropriate" for a...

        This doesn't make it more appropriate. At best, it makes it less of a problem for the person who gets hit on.

        Replace "hitting on" with "touching their butt". Is it "more appropriate" for a waiter/waitress to do that because there's a power imbalance or what

        9 votes
        1. [2]
          Qis
          Link Parent
          I'll let you know how I feel if any waitstaff ever gives me their number unsolicited. I'm guessing I won't feel too pressured, in that circumstance. The other way around seems socially...

          I'll let you know how I feel if any waitstaff ever gives me their number unsolicited. I'm guessing I won't feel too pressured, in that circumstance. The other way around seems socially difficult... Anyway, what do you mean, you defend office dating?

          7 votes
          1. Adys
            Link Parent
            It's rare because you can get fired over it. You would get fired because it's generally considered inappropriate. Fine. Raw opinion: I think the american trend of shunning office dating is toxic....

            I'll let you know how I feel if any waitstaff ever gives me their number unsolicited.

            It's rare because you can get fired over it. You would get fired because it's generally considered inappropriate.

            what do you mean, you defend office dating?

            Fine. Raw opinion: I think the american trend of shunning office dating is toxic. A lot of healthy relationships are formed through office dating; that there are unhealthy relationships formed through it is just a fact of dating in general. The fact is, for a lot of people, the majority of their social life is spent at the office. It's normal for office romances to flourish in that environment. If that option is removed, that can mean dating being removed from their life altogether.

            It becomes problematic when there is a power imbalance, as was talked elsewhere in the thread, but a lot of people don't make the difference and just do a blanket ban on office dating in general.

            Disclaimer: This does not and cannot affect me in my current situation. I am in a relationship; I work from home; I live in Europe in a country that doesn't do that shit.

            5 votes
        2. [2]
          mrbig
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I believe it does make it more appropriate. Maybe not enough for it to be considered entirely appropriate, but certainly more acceptable than when it happens in the other direction. That’s super...

          This doesn't make it more appropriate

          I believe it does make it more appropriate. Maybe not enough for it to be considered entirely appropriate, but certainly more acceptable than when it happens in the other direction.

          Replace "hitting on" with "touching their butt".

          That’s super specific :P

          3 votes
          1. Adys
            Link Parent
            It's an example to showcase that the power imbalance isn't the only factor. You can't say X is more appropriate because the power imbalance isn't a factor. The power imbalance isn't what makes it...

            That’s super specific :P

            It's an example to showcase that the power imbalance isn't the only factor. You can't say X is more appropriate because the power imbalance isn't a factor. The power imbalance isn't what makes it "inappropriate", it's what makes it straight up dangerous for the targeted person (for lack of a better term).

            A lot of things can be can be inappropriate and dangerous; or dangerous but not necessarily inappropriate; or inappropriate and safe.

            Anyway, I already conceded that there is a difference between the two. I just wanted to highlight that it's not ok to say something like this is "more appropriate" just because you're not in a power imbalance.

      2. [2]
        thundergolfer
        Link Parent
        I've worked 5 years as a waiter for events like weddings, and in that situation both seem to me inappropriate. During events you certainly can't "go to another restaurant" (seems unreasonable even...

        I've worked 5 years as a waiter for events like weddings, and in that situation both seem to me inappropriate. During events you certainly can't "go to another restaurant" (seems unreasonable even if you're just out to dinner) and requesting another server can be quite annoying for the event manager.

        3 votes
    2. Death
      Link Parent
      I'm not super worried that saying no to a member of the waiting staff is going to have adverse effects. I mean, what are they going to do? Refuse to serve me? I might not find it very charming,...

      I don't see how a waiter/waitress hitting on a client is any more appropriate than a client hitting on the waiter/waitress. Be flirty, sure, but if you want to ask the person out, you do it off-shift.

      I'm not super worried that saying no to a member of the waiting staff is going to have adverse effects. I mean, what are they going to do? Refuse to serve me?

      I might not find it very charming, but I wouldn't feel like I'm put in a bad position either. Not any more than if they just flirted with me. And that makes a pretty big difference imo.

      5 votes
    3. [2]
      DanBC
      Link Parent
      Staff are paid to be nice to Customers. They're paid to be friendly. Some men misread this and think "she's being nice to me because she likes me, I should make a move".

      I don't see how a waiter/waitress hitting on a client is any more appropriate than a client hitting on the waiter/waitress.

      Staff are paid to be nice to Customers. They're paid to be friendly. Some men misread this and think "she's being nice to me because she likes me, I should make a move".

      2 votes
      1. Adys
        Link Parent
        I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

        I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

  3. [4]
    TheRtRevKaiser
    Link
    Great post, and some things that "Gamers" need to hear, and keep hearing. ...But wow, kids, don't be like me and read the responses. Big yikes...

    Great post, and some things that "Gamers" need to hear, and keep hearing.

    ...But wow, kids, don't be like me and read the responses. Big yikes...

    13 votes
    1. Kuromantis
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I followed on your path and just as an initial warning, 4 out of the 7 comments mention his first name (Kyle). a slightly longer warning Yeah, no.

      I followed on your path and just as an initial warning, 4 out of the 7 comments mention his first name (Kyle).

      a slightly longer warning

      Dr. Sergio Loteiro

      Gratz for this text Kyle, got any sex after sharing with your lady friends? At least some nudes? Or a nipple?

      Yeah, no.

      4 votes
    2. [2]
      ThatFanficGuy
      Link Parent
      Why the scare quotes?

      Why the scare quotes?

      1. TheRtRevKaiser
        Link Parent
        That's a good question. I probably misused them when the capital was enough. It's not something I put a lot of thought into, but I tend to draw a distinction between people who play games, even...

        That's a good question. I probably misused them when the capital was enough.

        It's not something I put a lot of thought into, but I tend to draw a distinction between people who play games, even those for whom it's their main hobby, and people who identify as people who play games, or Gamers, or whatever.

        I think there's a real problem with toxicity in the Gamer subculture. That group (people who invest so much of their personality into gaming that it is their entire identity) has been really prone to being hijacked by extreme ideologies.

        So yeah I'm sure plenty of gamers (people who are interested in games) need to hear stuff like the OP, but Gamers (the identity group) probably need to hear it more than most.

        13 votes
  4. AnthonyB
    Link
    Oh boy, when did the bar get so low? This article reminds me of when I was in college and how my roommate and I used to joke about people who were missing "The Chunk" - the part of the brain that...

    Oh boy, when did the bar get so low? This article reminds me of when I was in college and how my roommate and I used to joke about people who were missing "The Chunk" - the part of the brain that picks up social cues. Our dorm was where people would come to hang out, and those without the chunk - a surprisingly high percentage - would ignore social cues and stay until we had to directly tell them to leave the room. I guess I shouldn't be surprised because, at its core, this is the same problem. Obviously, it's compounded by centuries of culture, social structure, and the trial-by-fire nature of how people learn to socialize, date, and flirt. I get that life is complicated, people get lonely, and that we find love in all sorts of places, but Jesus, read the room. One thing I wish the author would give more attention to is the difference between misreading the situation, which happens to everyone, and inappropriate/harassing behavior. But I guess this is flirting for morons. The message needs to be clear. As a kindergarten teacher, this is something I put a lot of thought into. We really need to do a better job of teaching kids to respect the word "no" and how to handle rejection. There are a lot of cases where the responsibility ends up falling on the kid that doesn't want to play, and we put too much focus on things like inclusion and letting the other person down gently. These are some of the long-term consequences. It's a very difficult thing to navigate, and it's the blind leading the blind, but its something we need to consider moving forward.

    It's so frustrating to see that the major conversations we're having about society boil down to "racism exists" and "don't force unwanted sexual attention on people."

    10 votes
  5. [4]
    gco
    Link
    This post came about in response to allegations of sexual assault against a Dota 2 caster with potentially more women speaking out against other men in the community soon. It's simple, eloquent...

    This post came about in response to allegations of sexual assault against a Dota 2 caster with potentially more women speaking out against other men in the community soon.

    It's simple, eloquent and gets the points across pretty well.

    9 votes
    1. [3]
      ThatFanficGuy
      Link Parent
      Not that it needs any – the article is eloquent and on-point – but: a little more context about the person speaking: Kyle "Melonzz" Freedman is a former Dota 2 pro player and a...

      Not that it needs any – the article is eloquent and on-point – but: a little more context about the person speaking:

      Kyle "Melonzz" Freedman is a former Dota 2 pro player and a commentator/analyst/caster for professional events for the game. He's been giving commentary over some of the biggest Dota 2 events, including the biggest of them all – The International, two years in a row.

      So, it's not just some random fuckwit. Kyle's been on the scene for a while, and has seen it from the angles of both a professional player and a professional commentator.

      11 votes
      1. [2]
        culturedleftfoot
        Link Parent
        I was wondering what community he was talking about, and now it makes sense why it was written in such a simplified way in the first place. Thanks.

        I was wondering what community he was talking about, and now it makes sense why it was written in such a simplified way in the first place. Thanks.

        4 votes
        1. timo
          Link Parent
          I could only tell because he mentioned "TI5". The International (or TI) is Dota's biggest yearly tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_(Dota_2)

          I could only tell because he mentioned "TI5". The International (or TI) is Dota's biggest yearly tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_(Dota_2)

  6. Death
    Link
    I like how no-nonsense this is. Part of the worrying reactions you always see to these kinds of controversies is people wondering if this means they can't ever flirt at all. Apparently there's a...

    I like how no-nonsense this is. Part of the worrying reactions you always see to these kinds of controversies is people wondering if this means they can't ever flirt at all. Apparently there's a considerable subset of people, mostly men I think, who seem to think you can't flirt without violating boundaries or being overly aggressive about it, and that seems really worrisome.

    9 votes