27 votes

A weakened Hezbollah is being goaded into all-out conflict with Israel – the consequences would be devastating for all

22 comments

  1. [10]
    stu2b50
    Link
    Nasrallah is dead, so it’s up in the air what a headless Hezbollah can really do at this point. Practically the entire chain of command of Hezb is dead, killed by Israel in the last 3 weeks (an...

    Nasrallah is dead, so it’s up in the air what a headless Hezbollah can really do at this point. Practically the entire chain of command of Hezb is dead, killed by Israel in the last 3 weeks (an honestly fearsome accomplishment, when you think about it).

    It’s probably going to cool down - Hezb is decimated, and Israel never wanted to concern themselves about Lebanon.

    21 votes
    1. [9]
      Interesting
      Link Parent
      I really do hope so for the sake of the many innocent people of Lebanon whose government gave up on protecting them (and who the the UN mission gave up as well). Looking at the Hezbollah org chart...

      I really do hope so for the sake of the many innocent people of Lebanon whose government gave up on protecting them (and who the the UN mission gave up as well). Looking at the Hezbollah org chart over the last three weeks is just absolutely crazy. They must have been thoroughly compromised in so many ways in order for Israel to get so much of the leadership so fast.

      I don't really know how pagers work, but I wonder if whatever device did the sending was bugged? Or if the pagers could be tracked? Or if Israel just has a lot of old fashioned spies, and kept track of where each of these generals traveled when they went into "panic mode" for previous attacks...

      15 votes
      1. [3]
        smiles134
        Link Parent
        So from what I read, Israel created a fake company that operated as a real company with real clients distributing real electronics and just waited for the right customer to come along

        So from what I read, Israel created a fake company that operated as a real company with real clients distributing real electronics and just waited for the right customer to come along

        10 votes
        1. [2]
          imperator
          Link Parent
          It's actually even crazier than that. Israel ran a disinformation campaign making them think they needed to get these pages and then used this fake company to sell them. Is her that these pages...

          It's actually even crazier than that. Israel ran a disinformation campaign making them think they needed to get these pages and then used this fake company to sell them.

          Is her that these pages could be tracked and showed them where they were and then when they time was right they attacked quickly and devastatingly.

          6 votes
          1. skybrian
            Link Parent
            Maybe there was a disinformation campaign, but based on a real threat. I think every military is worried about cell phone use? Some other context is that Hezbollah is sanctioned by many...

            Maybe there was a disinformation campaign, but based on a real threat. I think every military is worried about cell phone use?

            Some other context is that Hezbollah is sanctioned by many governments (including the US, Japan, and ten European countries, it seems) and so they needed to find alternative suppliers. That probably made it easier for the Israeli front company to get the contract.

            5 votes
      2. [5]
        PigeonDubois
        Link Parent
        (Normal) pagers can't be tracked since they don't have any transmitting capability, they can receive only.

        (Normal) pagers can't be tracked since they don't have any transmitting capability, they can receive only.

        5 votes
        1. [4]
          Interesting
          Link Parent
          That much I knew, I was more wondering if these particular pagers had some extra components.

          That much I knew, I was more wondering if these particular pagers had some extra components.

          1 vote
          1. [3]
            MimicSquid
            Link Parent
            Not that's been publicly reported. Apparently Hezbollah was disassembling them before use as a security precaution, and the explosives were only missed because they were directly built into the...

            Not that's been publicly reported. Apparently Hezbollah was disassembling them before use as a security precaution, and the explosives were only missed because they were directly built into the batteries.

            14 votes
            1. [2]
              teaearlgraycold
              Link Parent
              Assuming these are 18650 cells. That’s pretty smart as disassembling lithium cells will cause them to explode normally, thus no one would want to try that to inspect them.

              Assuming these are 18650 cells. That’s pretty smart as disassembling lithium cells will cause them to explode normally, thus no one would want to try that to inspect them.

              3 votes
              1. skybrian
                Link Parent
                I don’t know what kind of batteries they are, but here’s a blog post claiming that modifying lithium pouch batteries wouldn’t be hard: Turning Everyday Gadgets into Bombs is a Bad Idea (bunnie’s blog)

                I don’t know what kind of batteries they are, but here’s a blog post claiming that modifying lithium pouch batteries wouldn’t be hard:

                Turning Everyday Gadgets into Bombs is a Bad Idea (bunnie’s blog)

                2 votes
  2. [11]
    daywalker
    Link
    I think this analysis of the situation deserves its own topic, as it analyses the whole situation from a more holistic point of view and transcends the daily commentaries. It's written by Asher...

    I think this analysis of the situation deserves its own topic, as it analyses the whole situation from a more holistic point of view and transcends the daily commentaries. It's written by Asher Kaufman, a professor of History and Peace Studies from Notre Dame, who's been studying both Israel and Lebanon in his professional career for decades. I think his analysis gives a fair appraisal to both sides, especially to people affected, without drawing a false equivalance.

    I suggest people to read the whole thing, but here are the passages that I chose to give a summary.

    Despite the high rhetoric and mutual threats of destruction, until recent days neither Israel nor Hezbollah, nor the latter’s sponsor Iran, have shown an interest in a full-scale war. All parties surely know the likely destructive consequences of such an eventuality for themselves

    (...)

    So instead, they have exchanged fire and blows along their shared boundary, with somewhat agreed-upon red lines concerning the geographical scope of attacks and efforts not to intentionally target civilians.

    But Israel’s recent attacks in Lebanon may have turned the page of this war of attrition into a new and far more acute situation, putting the region on the brink of a full war. Such a war would wreak havoc in Lebanon and Israel, and might also drag Iran and the United States into direct confrontation.

    Hezbollah’s secretary general, Hassan Nasrallah, has insisted throughout the near-yearlong hostilities that his organization would hold its fire only if a cease-fire agreement is reached between Israel and Hamas. In recent weeks, however, Israel has taken the conflict in the opposite direction.

    The country’s defense minister, Yoav Gallant, described the coordinated attacks on Hezbolah targets as a “new phase,” adding that the “center of gravity” in the war was moving north into Lebanon. The Israeli government has added the “return of the residents of the north securely to their homes” as an additional war goal.

    (...)

    It is clear that rather than the uneasy status quo that defined this war of attrition for nearly a year, Israel’s intent is now to pressure Hezbollah to concede.

    (...)

    It is hard to determine what the strategy behind Israel’s actions is: Since Oct. 7; as the Biden administration has noted, Israel has not displayed a coherent strategy with clear political goals.

    Rather, critics of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu suggest that he is mainly motivated by his own political survival and the retention of power as the head of state, tying Israel’s interests to his own.

    (...)

    In some respects, Israelis under Netanyahu’s leadership, and Lebanese in a country increasingly held hostage by Hezbollah’s interests, face similar predicaments: Their well-being is being sacrificed for other priorities.

    Netanyahu’s recent statements about concern for Israeli citizens in the north sound hollow after 11 months of pursuing policies that put them more in danger, as well as opposing a Gaza cease-fire deal that would also end hostilities between Hezbollah and Israel.

    In Lebanon, Hezbollah has dragged the country into this war against the will of most Lebanese – a decision that has led to significant devastation in parts of a country already suffering extreme political and economic duress.

    18 votes
    1. skybrian
      Link Parent
      It seems like a very dangerous game to play: “we can launch missiles at Israel every day for months but we don’t want a war, honest. All these missiles, they don’t count.” Eventually it stopped...

      Hezbollah’s secretary general, Hassan Nasrallah, has insisted throughout the near-yearlong hostilities that his organization would hold its fire only if a cease-fire agreement is reached between Israel and Hamas. In recent weeks, however, Israel has taken the conflict in the opposite direction.

      It seems like a very dangerous game to play: “we can launch missiles at Israel every day for months but we don’t want a war, honest. All these missiles, they don’t count.” Eventually it stopped working for them. See also: salami slicing tactics.

      And yes, it’s the civilians who pay the price. Hezbollah too, though.

      27 votes
    2. [9]
      adutchman
      Link Parent
      Sounds like the situation in the Middle East is just being worsened by the Netanyahu regime. The US showing unwavering support for Israel does not help at all in this.

      Sounds like the situation in the Middle East is just being worsened by the Netanyahu regime. The US showing unwavering support for Israel does not help at all in this.

      7 votes
      1. [7]
        MimicSquid
        Link Parent
        The US isn't showing unwavering support. There's a lot of statements to the effect of "We were never informed in advance about the [bullshit war crime of the day.]", scaling back supplies sent to...

        The US isn't showing unwavering support. There's a lot of statements to the effect of "We were never informed in advance about the [bullshit war crime of the day.]", scaling back supplies sent to Israel, and trying to provide military advice designed to scale back the conflict.

        None of that is an open rejection of Israel, but support is definitely wavering.

        19 votes
        1. [6]
          Minori
          Link Parent
          Unfortunately Biden has long been a unwavering ally to Israel. Although he's seemingly starting to realize Bibi's taking him for a ride. I expect much more open condemnation and restrictions from...

          Unfortunately Biden has long been a unwavering ally to Israel. Although he's seemingly starting to realize Bibi's taking him for a ride. I expect much more open condemnation and restrictions from a Harris administration while if Trump wins we can say goodbye to Gaza and the West Bank...

          9 votes
          1. [5]
            JCPhoenix
            Link Parent
            I suspect we'll see hear more stern words from a Harris administration. But I doubt that there'll be any real change in levels of support. One reason is that Israel has high bipartisan support, at...

            I suspect we'll see hear more stern words from a Harris administration. But I doubt that there'll be any real change in levels of support. One reason is that Israel has high bipartisan support, at least in the mainstream of both Republicans and Democrats. A Harris administration isn't going to start a fight with her own party, nor give ammo to Republicans.

            But a bigger reason I think is that US restrictions on materiel support could cause the US to lose influence over Israel. More than it already appears. Even though Israel needs the US, I also suspect that Israel could go without some US materiel support. And that would put the US in a worse position.

            It reminds me of China-US relations. The more each side uncouples from the other, the less influence each has on the other. It's also the idea behind the EU; make the member countries so dependent on each other that they won't be able to go to war with each other without shooting themselves in the foot, too.

            Plus, it's not like Bibi is the only decision maker in Israel. We've heard reports of other influential politicians and high-level military officials in Israel who are publicly wary of pushing the US too far. But if the US starts actually restricting Israel, will those same pols and officials blame Bibi and his far-right coalition? Or will they feel that the US is abandoning Israel in its greatest time of need, and decide that Israel needs to really go it alone?

            The US really is in-between a rock and a hard place on this one. But so long as it appears that Bibi and the coalition are pushing for more aggression, with Washington as the "voice of reason," then the focus remains on the former. Bibi remains the "bad guy," and the US maintains influence with other decision makers in Israel.

            11 votes
            1. papasquat
              Link Parent
              Yes, point #2 is the real reason Israel will never be completely cut off. Without that support, the US loses the rudder by which it can influence Israel. The less support, the less Israel has to...

              Yes, point #2 is the real reason Israel will never be completely cut off. Without that support, the US loses the rudder by which it can influence Israel. The less support, the less Israel has to lose, and the threat of losing that support is virtually the only thing keeping netanyahu from carpet bombing the whole place. He doesn't care about Israel's reputation on the world stage, all he cares about is that the war goes on for as long as possible, because as long as it does, he stays in office and out of jail.

              8 votes
            2. [3]
              daywalker
              Link Parent
              This is not really a dilemma if you're not approaching it from a place that doesn't normalize "superpower" influence, a.k.a. imperialism. Countries are not entitled to spheres of influence, and US...

              This is not really a dilemma if you're not approaching it from a place that doesn't normalize "superpower" influence, a.k.a. imperialism. Countries are not entitled to spheres of influence, and US certainly is not entitled to a sphere of influence in Israel or middle-east.

              Narratively speaking, accepting spheres of influence as an entitlement (especially those of superpowers), instead of a problem, works to make the real problem disappear: that it's a given that imperialist countries are entitled to these spheres of influence. Exact same rhetoric was used to normalize Russia's attack against Ukraine, because people posited that increasing Western/NATO influence near Russia had made it uneasy, because Russia was entitled to a sphere of influence in those areas. Thus, it was said, this justified a retaliation.

              This rhetoric was wrong then, and it is wrong now. This whole "realpolitik" approach is very dehumanizing to those affected, and mainly works to justify existing power structures and imbalances. It's also very widespread among the populations of more powerful countries, especially those of superpowers.

              5 votes
              1. [2]
                vetch
                Link Parent
                I don't quite understand how this comment fits in to the context of this discussion. JCPhoenix was not saying that they face a personal dilemma in deciding whether the US is right to support or...

                I don't quite understand how this comment fits in to the context of this discussion.

                JCPhoenix was not saying that they face a personal dilemma in deciding whether the US is right to support or not support Israel, nor were they suggesting that the US is 'entitled' to influence in the region. They were pointing out the dilemma that US government decision-makers face, and what their reaction may be.

                I happen to agree that states are not entitled to 'spheres of influence' outside their borders, and I also agree that 'realpolotik' rhetoric can often be dehumanising and diminish the importance of a populations right to self-determination, however in conversations about what the realities of international politics might be we need to talk about the realities as they stand right now. Describing is not necessarily condoning.

                I don't see how we can approach conversations about these topics without acknowledging superpowers or their influence. To do so is not 'normalising' imperialism, it is responding to a reality which must be described in order to have a context in which a states behaviour can be understood, and to see how a favourable outcome for all might be reached. In order to make productive progress towards a future in which more people have self-determination, you must first understand the status-quo, even if you don't support its continuation.

                8 votes
                1. Landhund
                  Link Parent
                  IMO, this is the most important lesson everyone who tries to achieve anything has to deeply internalise. Way to often do I see well intentioned idealists basically only treading water because...

                  In order to make productive progress [...], you must first understand the status-quo, even if you don't support its continuation.

                  IMO, this is the most important lesson everyone who tries to achieve anything has to deeply internalise. Way to often do I see well intentioned idealists basically only treading water because their deep devotion to their goal prevents them from accurately assessing the status quo and thus finding actually productive means of achieving their goal.

                  And before anyone feels excluded from this statement: you see this behaviour all across the political spectrum, no matter if conservative, liberal, progressive, regressive, capitalist, communist or anarchist.

                  4 votes
      2. elight
        Link Parent
        Be careful. Let's not conflate supporting Israel and supporting Netanyahu. Supporting the war is supporting Netanyahu and his regime.

        Be careful. Let's not conflate supporting Israel and supporting Netanyahu. Supporting the war is supporting Netanyahu and his regime.

        6 votes
  3. Raspcoffee
    Link
    First of all, I really appreciated this article's 'above' view of the matter, not getting caught up in linguistics. Because our vocabulary rarely does the regional conflict justice due to context...

    First of all, I really appreciated this article's 'above' view of the matter, not getting caught up in linguistics. Because our vocabulary rarely does the regional conflict justice due to context and uniqueness, from my experience articles tend to either over explain and overly focus on language rather than the meat. Or alternatively suit the language to their needs.

    It seems like a really solid analysis. Hezbollah is now on it's knees. While you can question the methods of Israel, I can't say I care much for those terrorists at least.

    But as the article rightfully points out, Israels military strategy doesn't appear to be coherent. And I tend to agree with the suspicions that Netanyahu is trying to navigate this politically for his personal gains. I hope that this doesn't mean they'll just continue far beyond what is necessary... But I wouldn't be surprised.

    I'm also concerned about the internal polarization of Israeli politics. If this draws out longer than is expected it could burn up the issues and suspicions around Netanyahu. And an unstable Israel could really fuck up the situation beyond comprehension.

    15 votes