Devil's advocate: Matrix 4
Hi everyone,
So having been a massive fan of the Matrix trilogy, I was very excited about the Matrix 4, but obviously with a very hesitant heart of not being too excited, for fears of it failing to meet our expectations. But unfortunately, that's what happened, at least from every person that I've asked about it.
I know it was just the one Wachowski sister that was involved with this version, so it makes sense that it might have a slightly different flavour. And yes, I've watched it about 3 times. I really wanted to see if there was anything I needed to see or think about that would make it enjoyable, as I really wanted to have it up there with the original trilogy. (After all, I did enjoy some of the Wachowski's films after the trilogy.)
Is there anyone here that:
- Did enjoy it.
- Would be able to play devil's advocate on why they think it was good, or what we missed?
I am very keen to get into the nitty gritty of it. :-D
This is a very interesting perspective but I'd say it only applies to the first half of the movie. I wouldn't attribute this much bitterness to Matrix 4 in general.
I hated Matrix 2&3 and was very satisfied that Matrix 4 essentially did a reset of the storyline back to how Matrix 1 ended, just with Trinity as the other superhero about to do something with Matrix. Do you remember the thrill of Neo going superman from that phone booth at the end of Matrix? The sheer badassery and open possibilities were beyond anything that could be matched by sequels even by the most competent screenwriters and directors. Matrix 4 is admission of that.
From this point of view last installment is a comfort watch. Open ending is how the franchise should have concluded (or rather it shouldn't have become a franchise).
Big agree. It's a lot easier to be on board with this when they're actively exploring it. It's another thing when you're sitting through badly laid out fight scenes.
That said, I enjoyed 4 a lot more than 2 and 3. That's just a low bar to clear is all.
I'll agree with liking 4 more than 2 and 3. What I can't agree on is if I liked it more since it was nostalgia driven, the fact that I disliked 2 and 3 so much that 4 had such a low bar or how much of 4 was "good" or how much each of those 3 things weighed on decision of liking 4. I also found it has pretty much 0 rewatchability to me like 2 and 3 (I bought my first DVD player specifically to watch the original's DVD).
I've only watched it once in the movie theater but I did like the initial premise and meta-commentary on cynacism and lack of creativity. The twist about Trinity was.. odd after the first 3 movies but I was intrigued by the 2 parts make a greater whole part. To me, it fell apart with the scenes outside of the matrix with contrived tension/disagreements and I personally found the fight scenes generally.. lackluster? The lackluster fight scenes is also one of my larger complaints about 2 and 3, fwiw.
Matrix 4 is fully aware of it being a sequel to a trilogy of films and hammers it down with a heavy handed meta commentary in the first half of the movie. Then it proceeds to throw out all of the unnecessary lore through the window and goes back to basics (that's quite heavy handed too but unfortunately execution is pretty bad). Once it achieves story reset there's nothing else that needs to be added or removed because you don't need kryptonite if you do a superman origin story and just end it there.
Kryptonite would be easy in the Matrix too. As long as it was logically consistent, they could easily hand wave the machines finding out about NEOs power and working to patch it out. But instead he breaks the rules and mind fucks the machines wirelessly. At least give him a scene where they install a Wi-Fi module into his jack.
My biggest problem with the matrix 4 isn't necessarily that it was cynical, but rather how it decided to be cynical. It felt like a lot of the cynicism was written in an SNL writers room in one afternoon and didn't have a second draft written or anything. I get what they were going for, but parts felt more like a sketch than a blockbuster movie.
Aww come on, "our overlords at Warner Brothers decided there had to be a sequel", said in a Hollywood movie, was worth the watch alone. But like others here that liked 4 I didn't like 2 and 3, so maybe that's a common thing? If you were satisfied with the original trilogy 4 was unnecessary, but if you didn't like the tonal shift back then 4 was a refreshing, satisfying deconstruction of what was wrong with the latter parts, mainly that they took themselves way too seriously.
I'm a big fan of Freddy Got Fingered, but I didn't make that connection when I saw the Matrix 4. I get that it's self-referential with the subplot about making another Matrix game, but it didn't seem to me that the whole movie was that cynical. Did I misunderstand it? If it's actually that cynical, that'd make me enjoy it even more.
Thanks for sharing! Those were pretty illuminating. Now I want to watch the Matrix 4 again.
Yeah loved it.
Old man Merovingian being a hobo.
Meta about making the film, and how they would do it without the original directors anyway so they said fuck it I’ll do it but make it meta about stupid movie companies and useless sequels.
It’s a matrix movie very firmly made as a product of its own time, the growth of the director and with one eye on the earlier movies.
The first matrix promised that you could set your mind free, maybe even via cyber space and that tech would be a great liberator. There was optimism that scrappy nerds could take on the corporate world and change the world. There was asimovian sci fi of AI fighting back.
In this matrix we see tech has been subsumed and used to keep us hooked. It’s not a unique insight, but I think contrasted with the previous matrices it shows our limitless human capacity for taking potentially good things and using them for greed and power. Enter our new favourite phrase around here: enshitification.
The matrix promised to set your mind free but it’s futile if the other 99% are still hooked to their black mirrors having their attention drained.
Tildes is Zion, Silicon Valley is the new matrix.
I enjoyed it for what it was, even though I didn't particularly like the second and third movies.
I think the Matrix 4 was about as good as it possibly could've been given the circumstances. Warner Bros. were going to make that movie one way or another, so I'm glad Lana Wachowski was involved. Without a Wachowski, it would've been soulless garbage. Instead we got a decent entry into the series.
I'll give you a slightly different take from the people who loved the entire film.
I love the takedown of legacy sequels and corporations. The philosophical aspects of the film landed extremely well for me.
My biggest issue was that, in a sequel to some of the best and most influential actions films ever made, the action was just...bad. So while I love a lot of the ideas in the movie, the actual film left me a little underwhelmed.
I got what they were going for, but it felt it was just pooooorly done.
There was no depth, no subtlety, it wasn't even a halfway decent movie.
Its actually felt like an insult.
"yeah, I got Xxx millions for making this, and I am going to shit all over it. Too bad you paid money for this."
Exactly, and the fact that they made fun of bullet time and used one of the most irritating and oldest forms of "special effects", it made the film feel like a fanfic would have been better.
I liked it because it wasn't pandering. I like that it doesn't take the "everything's perfect now" approach either. I like that it isn't just "here's some Kung Fu".
I see lots of "it's cynical because they knew wb would make it anyway", but everything I've read said Lana wanted to make this pretty badly, especially after the death of her parents. I think its probably just exactly what she wanted to make, same as every other thing the two of them have worked on. They're super lucky to have that power.
They use it to make what they want. That's not just pandering to fans. Again, I like that.
I've only seen it once, and liked it for what it was: a middle finger to everyone who wanted this movie to be made. There's intentionally 0 subtlety in this: the jabs against Warner Bros, the videogame allegory, useless/botched and rebooted characters (Merovingian, Morpheus, Smith), the recycled and ridiculous plot, the faux fan service, etc.
There's IMO nothing good in it if you don't get the meta aspect, and that's what makes it interesting. It's not a good movie, but it's interesting.
Thanks everyone, I see what you mean from the context and reasons of the film. It obviously just doesn't fit into the Matrix universe for me, it feels to me as if it is what Hollywood would have made, if neither of the Wachowski's got involved.
The cynical angle makes sense, as well as how things are different, such as the blue pills, social media, the therapist. But the movie as a whole just felt rushed, like a meta pie in the face.
Seeing the Merovingian for one second made me hope to have a story as to why he's a hobo now, or also why Trinity is also not a superhero now.
Weird fact that someone pointed out to me when it came out: Neo never shoots one bullet. He just does shockwaves and the occasional fight. And with Morpheus and Agent Smith not being involved, it just felt so cheesy.
Thanks for the feedback though, it just is weird how such a great trilogy just became this super meta and cynical "f-you WB" to what could have been a great addition to the story.
Thanks for posing the question to force us to be positive. It's such a difficult thing to do especially with this movie.
So I'll meet you in the middle and give a balanced view and I'm trying here. Otherwise I'd rip it a new one for even the reasons people are outlining here because the movie failed because it didn't movie, it ranted.
Anyways...
As always, there's many lenses one can analyze this movie.
Standalone.
As a series.
With context as a series.
As meta commentary with context and without.
So to force the positivity, we can overlook the parts where it failed and really try hard to focus on the parts that the most energy was spent on. The meta commentary with context.
We know the now Wachowski sisters did not want to make a series out of The Matrix. We know also before they were sisters, they were brothers and they were in a different place in their lives. A story about spandex, bdsm, nihilism, and pessimistic takes on tech made sense for the times and for their lives then. The Matrix ended organically and they changed as people, they grew.
WB wanted more money so they squeezed sequels out of them and media that didn't really need to exist. A fourth movie was impossible. This part is key because it explains why the movie is a failure. If you change as a parson so fundamentally with time, experience, and philosophy, it's incredibly hard to look back on what you discarded to get back in an old mindset in order to stay true to the themes and tone the original movie had. That is an impossible ask and the sisters knew this.
WB didn't care. So the movie was dead on arrival. The spirit was gone, the heart was gone, and they all but got forced into making a Matrix 4. Rather than trying to make a cohesive movie, the movie was used to speak the truth. Rather than tarnish your own movie by trying and failing to capture the original that does not even make sense in today's world because the bdsm scene of new York...moved on, you lean into who you are, what your truth is, and make the best movie you can, which becomes the antithesis of The Matrix. It's still shit, it's not The Matrix, but you fought back against WB by making the best turd you could that you could be proud of.
In that slim, slim, way, the movie succeeded. It wasn't a movie that I watched, it was a retaliation against WB and it was good for that.
But that's all the movie could be. The plot was written on the back of a napkin stuck with some gum and cigarette ash. Neo got neutered more than before as the titular action man got further deconstructed. Logic, Sci fi, and tech got dismantled into nothing. And the only thing that the movie told us, other than personal stories about WB and Hollywood, was how the Wachowski sisters evolved and grew which is lovely via metaphors about a matrix full of emotions and rainbows.
It told us silicon Valley is evil, which we are starting to see, and it told us everything we once knew is now poop.
Ah, I failed. I was doing so good for a minute. I just...can't give this movie any accolades as a movie. As a rebellious act against WB it's great. As a TLC special on personal growth it's fantastic. As a show of skill in the art of cynicism, metaphors, tongue in cheek and clever writing, it's great. But did it have to be wrapped up in matrix foil? Couldn't have made a podcast? A Ted talk? A blog?
Wow, thank you so much for also trying to make it work and see the positive. It seems that the general voice here is that it has to be seen for what it is: a meta commentary and rebellion against WB and what is going on today. The whole metamorphosis of the Wachowski brothers to sisters is such a valid point, I don't think I put enough thought into it, as it obviously carries a massive weight in the story that they were trying to tell.
To be honest, I never quite understood the BDSM scenes in the movies, so I just assumed that it was affiliated with the underground hacker parties, though I just tied it to the fact that it must be to do with their sexual and physical journeys. Though I knew nothing of it being in New York and that it's moved on, etc. But yes, like you say, if we look at it as the journey of what it was when they were brothers and how it evolved to where they're journey has taken them now, it's worlds apart. Back in the 90's they also dressed darker, whereas now they dress a lot more colourful, so the colourful Matrix 4 is starting to make sense now.
Thank you, I think I'm starting to grasp what the one sister wanted to say in the movie. I just wish the other one was also involved, so as to get a balanced view from both of them. But looking at it through their eyes, I feel a bit more compassion or leeway towards what they must have gone through as film makers vs WB, and also as humans on their personal journeys. I think if I had to watch it now, I might come with a softer lens. So thank you, you actually made a dent in my disappointment.
Interestingly, as I'm writing, I wonder if the transgender journey they went on had any role to play in Neo (masculinity) being the superhero, to Trinity (femininity) becoming the new superhero and saving Neo, but also having the same powers. Also the whole thing about Neo never really attacking or shooting, just constantly defending and blasting shockwaves, being any comment on his passive way of fighting, almost like he's being forced into it, but just doing what is needed to move on.
But then again, maybe I'm reading too much into it. You've opened up a whole new rabbit hole, ha! Thanks again to you and everyone for your answers!
Kind of off topic, but does anyone else remember a sprite comic called "Bob and George"? There was a scene in the final arc where George is in the future, and he says "Oh God, I remember everything! Even the fourth Matrix movie!" That strip was made in '07 at the latest, so I find it strangely prescient.
Never seën this, but wow, what a strange comic...
I thought it was entertaining, but a lot of scenes went on for too long or were just unnecessary. I really enjoyed seeing the city.
Though for the john wick series I have a personal head canon that the series takes place in the matrix as an alternate universe or something. The first episode was believable for the most part, but as the series goes on it's becoming less so. There's ready Morpheus and Neo, morpheus being a closeish friend of neo, sometimes guiding him. Plus the reflexes and healing capabilities of this man are beyond human.
That's an interesting take on the two franchises, thanks for sharing. :-)
OP was asking for people who actually enjoyed it to explain why. Or for people to play Devil's Advocate on its behalf. You basically did the exact opposite, and instead just explained why you thought it was mediocre. :P
I like how in terms of machines controlling stuff we went from grand architects and merovingians to that one therapist guy. Kind of shows how sterile and lame the 21st century matrix is.
Just like real life the seat of power isn’t some giant corporations in a faceless building with an old man running it.
It’s in tech startups selling you ads and trying to sap your attention and get you addicted to their infinite scrolling wall.
The battle is mental so a therapist makes sense.