13 votes

Daily thread - United States 2021 transition of power - January 14

This thread is posted daily - please try to post all relevant US political content in here, such as news, updates, opinion articles, etc. Extremely significant events may warrant a separate topic, but almost all should be posted in here.

This is an inherently political thread; please try to avoid antagonistic arguments and bickering matches. Comment threads that devolve into unproductive arguments may be removed so that the overall topic is able to continue.

60 comments

  1. [32]
    dubteedub
    Link
    Building on my previous fuck US Capitol Police update, new information is coming to light about how black members of the force have been raising warnings for years about racist members. “No One...

    Building on my previous fuck US Capitol Police update, new information is coming to light about how black members of the force have been raising warnings for years about racist members.

    Since 2001, hundreds of Black officers had sued the department for racial discrimination. They alleged that white officers called Black colleagues slurs like the N-word and that one officer found a hangman’s noose on his locker. White officers were called “huk lovers” or “FOGs” — short for “friends of gangsters” — if they were friendly with their Black colleagues. Black officers faced “unprovoked traffic stops” from fellow Capitol Police officers. One Black officer claimed he heard a colleague say, “Obama monkey, go back to Africa.”

    18 votes
    1. [2]
      Grimalkin
      Link Parent
      I hope the events of the last week have opened more Americans eyes to the reality of how deeply ingrained racism is in police culture, and has been for a very long time. I don't know what...

      I hope the events of the last week have opened more Americans eyes to the reality of how deeply ingrained racism is in police culture, and has been for a very long time. I don't know what percentage of police (and armed forces) hold white supremacist or other racist viewpoints and keep quiet about them but the answer is likely far higher than what most would expect.

      15 votes
      1. onyxleopard
        Link Parent
        I think relegating it to "police culture" is missing the big picture. I don't mean to downplay systemic racism within police departments, but this isn't a police-only thing. The police just...

        how deeply ingrained racism is in police culture

        I think relegating it to "police culture" is missing the big picture. I don't mean to downplay systemic racism within police departments, but this isn't a police-only thing. The police just happens to be an appealing local power structure for racists to infiltrate because it is one of the few public venues where racists can physically enact their fantasies by leveraging the power imbalance inherent to in-person police vs. citizen interactions. These same racists are not only availing themselves of the power structures of local police forces. They are availing themselves of any power structure that isn't categorically hostile to them—and to the discredit of the US, that remains a lot of power structures: local government, state government, federal government, local police, state police, federal law enforcement like ICE, etc.

        17 votes
    2. [28]
      skybrian
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Look, there are literally cops on both sides of this. Quick thinking by a cop probably prevented a shootout in the Senate, but there were off-duty-cops in the crowd, and the decisions of the...

      Look, there are literally cops on both sides of this. Quick thinking by a cop probably prevented a shootout in the Senate, but there were off-duty-cops in the crowd, and the decisions of the leadership are suspicious.

      It's a terrible, fucked-up situation, but after reading about everything that happened, summing it up as "fuck US Capitol police" is stupid, inflammatory nonsense. Have you learned nothing from this incident about why we need Capitol police? Preferably without any disloyal members, and figuring out how to make that happen is a big problem.

      We should at least be grateful to those who did their job.

      13 votes
      1. [10]
        tindall
        Link Parent
        I would say that this, especially in contrast with the way armed police were used against peaceful protestors at the Capitol in the summer, is a very instructive case in why the structure of...

        Have you learned nothing from this incident about why we need Capitol police?

        I would say that this, especially in contrast with the way armed police were used against peaceful protestors at the Capitol in the summer, is a very instructive case in why the structure of "police" as we know them is pretty ineffective at preventing violence.

        14 votes
        1. [4]
          NaraVara
          Link Parent
          So most of the police at the George Floyd protests were Federal cops, and they largely wouldn’t even show insignia indicating which part of federal law enforcement they were with. Capitol Police...

          So most of the police at the George Floyd protests were Federal cops, and they largely wouldn’t even show insignia indicating which part of federal law enforcement they were with. Capitol Police is more like a group of very well funded security guards or mall cops. Those other federal resources were deliberately held back by the Trump administration specifically to “teach a lesson.”

          I suspect, after the heat from the BLM protests, the Capitol Police wanted to do a bit of a “see how you libtards like it if we don’t clamp down” thing by deliberately understaffing. They probably didn’t expect it to go as bad as it did because, of course they didn’t.

          2 votes
          1. [3]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            I'm wondering what you've read about federal resources being deliberately held back? What I've read made it seem suspicious, but still a mystery.

            I'm wondering what you've read about federal resources being deliberately held back? What I've read made it seem suspicious, but still a mystery.

            1. [2]
              NaraVara
              Link Parent
              Sure. It was clear Trump didn't order them. And there are other reports that he was glued to the TV and excited about what was happening until he noticed how "low class" his fans looked, at which...

              Sure. It was clear Trump didn't order them. And there are other reports that he was glued to the TV and excited about what was happening until he noticed how "low class" his fans looked, at which point he lost his enthusiasm.

              They denied support at least 6 times during, and in advance of the riots.

              6 votes
              1. skybrian
                Link Parent
                Yes, why they denied support is the part that still seems like a mystery. I hope that will come out in an investigation eventually.

                Yes, why they denied support is the part that still seems like a mystery. I hope that will come out in an investigation eventually.

                1 vote
        2. [5]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          At least they were stopped before they got to members of Congress. There are probably lots of improvements to be made, but what structure other than something that looks something like a police...

          At least they were stopped before they got to members of Congress. There are probably lots of improvements to be made, but what structure other than something that looks something like a police force (but hopefully not racist and disloyal) would be able to turn back the lynch mob?

          I mean, sure, more police and a fence would help. Maybe nobody would have been killed?

          1 vote
          1. [2]
            psi
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Something like the military, for example. Ultimately the problem with the police is the lack of accountability -- police officers are afforded extra rights that other civilians aren't. In...

            There are probably lots of improvements to be made, but what structure other than something that looks something like a police force (but hopefully not racist and disloyal) would be able to turn back the lynch mob?

            Something like the military, for example. Ultimately the problem with the police is the lack of accountability -- police officers are afforded extra rights that other civilians aren't. In contrast, service members have their rights restricted, and disobedience is often met with severe consequences.

            (Of course, the military is ultimately under the direction of the President, so it'd have to be something like the military except beholden to Congress. And I'm not proposing that we should use the military, just that it's an alternate structure.)

            7 votes
            1. skybrian
              Link Parent
              You might compare with the Secret Service, which isn't military, though agents are often ex-military.

              You might compare with the Secret Service, which isn't military, though agents are often ex-military.

              2 votes
          2. [2]
            tindall
            Link Parent
            A good question, and one worth taking more seriously than its rhetorical use here.

            what structure other than something that looks something like a police force (but hopefully not racist and disloyal) would be able to turn back the lynch mob?

            A good question, and one worth taking more seriously than its rhetorical use here.

            4 votes
            1. skybrian
              Link Parent
              Well, we agree on something then! I think it's very much worth discussing, for real.

              Well, we agree on something then! I think it's very much worth discussing, for real.

      2. [4]
        dubteedub
        Link Parent
        Just because there were a few heroic cops on the force that day does not make up for the systemic failures of the USCP. They have let racists and white supremacists fester within the agency for at...

        Quick thinking by a cop probably prevented a shootout in the Senate, but there were off-duty-cops in the crowd, and the decisions of the leadership are suspicious.

        Just because there were a few heroic cops on the force that day does not make up for the systemic failures of the USCP. They have let racists and white supremacists fester within the agency for at least two decades now and have done nothing meaningful to stop it. And again it is not just leadership at fault here. Two officers have already been suspended and at least a dozen others are under investigation for their actions in support of the insurrection last week.

        We should at least be grateful to those who did their job.

        The agency failed at their literally one real job. Their purpose is to protect the Capitol and our nation's lawmakers. They failed to do so.

        Have you learned nothing from this incident about why we need Capitol police?

        What we actually need is for Capitol Police, like nearly every law enforcement agency in this country, to take seriously the threats of white supremacy and right-wing violence.

        They don't get kudos for failing to take the many many warnings at face value and plan appropriately, helping contribute to the death of five people and what could have been a massacre of our members of Congress.

        13 votes
        1. [3]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          (Emphasis added.) I guess I agree with that part, because I'm not sure what it would mean to make for it. There's no scoreboard where we give them points when they do something good and take away...

          a few heroic cops on the force that day does not make up for the systemic failures

          (Emphasis added.) I guess I agree with that part, because I'm not sure what it would mean to make for it. There's no scoreboard where we give them points when they do something good and take away points when they do something bad; sometimes we talk like that but it's a metaphor. A lot of the capitol police earned their paycheck that day and then some, but this doesn't mean the problems don't need to be fixed. If anything they're more urgent.

          The agency failed at their literally one real job.

          This is too binary. There were definitely failures, but mostly they didn't give up, they kept fighting. That's important. Lots of times things go wrong and the rank-and-file still has to deal with the consequences. In theory, there shouldn't be any need for heroics if the leadership did its job, but there are a lot of things that should never have happened.

          Their purpose is to protect the Capitol and our nation's lawmakers. They failed to do so.

          This is again, rounding things off to a single binary value, success or failure. To get slightly more in-depth about it, they succeeded at protecting the lawmakers. Barely. Not how it should have happened, but still.

          4 votes
          1. [2]
            dubteedub
            Link Parent
            It really is that binary. Their mission listed on their website is: They literally failed at their sole responsibility. They did not protect Congress, its members, employees, or facilities, and...

            This is too binary.

            It really is that binary. Their mission listed on their website is:

            Protect the Congress – its Members, employees, visitors, and facilities – so it can fulfill its constitutional and legislative responsibilities in a safe, secure and open environment.

            They literally failed at their sole responsibility. They did not protect Congress, its members, employees, or facilities, and our legislature had to stop some of its most critical activities enshrined in the Constitution because of their failure.

            2 votes
            1. skybrian
              Link Parent
              If you make me pick between "success" and "failure" overall, I'm not going to choose "success." But I don't think it's all that enlightening. There's more to writing a postmortem than that. Like,...

              If you make me pick between "success" and "failure" overall, I'm not going to choose "success." But I don't think it's all that enlightening. There's more to writing a postmortem than that.

              Like, every plane crash is a failure, but it doesn't solve the mystery of why it happened.

              4 votes
      3. [10]
        Micycle_the_Bichael
        Link Parent
        Honestly I feel the opposite. The more I read the more I agree with "Fuck the Capitol Police". Like... Just that ProPublica article from the top level comment is enough to say "fuck the Capitol...

        but after reading about everything that happened, summing it up as "fuck US Capitol police" is stupid, inflammatory nonsense.

        Honestly I feel the opposite. The more I read the more I agree with "Fuck the Capitol Police". Like... Just that ProPublica article from the top level comment is enough to say "fuck the Capitol Police", and then there's all the rest of the details surrounding this event which just make them even worse.

        8 votes
        1. [9]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          Did you skip over the part of the article where there was leadership saying they were trying to root out the racists? There were apparently plenty of people who knew there was a problem, but...

          Did you skip over the part of the article where there was leadership saying they were trying to root out the racists? There were apparently plenty of people who knew there was a problem, but something is lacking in attempts to fix it.

          Maybe power has shifted enough now that they can actually do it.

          3 votes
          1. [8]
            Micycle_the_Bichael
            Link Parent
            The entire rest of the article is members of the force saying things aren't improving. Like the still-ongoing lawsuit started in 2001 and it is now 2020. That's 19 years its been a known problem....

            The entire rest of the article is members of the force saying things aren't improving. Like the still-ongoing lawsuit started in 2001 and it is now 2020. That's 19 years its been a known problem. And the rest of the article quotes multiple black officers making statements that things aren't getting better. The Capitol Police don't get credit for black members making attempts to fix things and then the Police ignoring it for 19 years. The black officers held 16 demonstrations between 2013-2018.

            “We got Jan. 6 because no one took us seriously.”

            They literally say that the Capitol Police didn't take black officer's complaints seriously. So yes. Fuck them. They don't get credit for black officer's work when the black officers work was against them.

            9 votes
            1. [7]
              skybrian
              Link Parent
              But the black police officers making these complaints are also police. There are police on both sides. I think the black police officers should get credit for their own work, and we shouldn't...

              But the black police officers making these complaints are also police. There are police on both sides. I think the black police officers should get credit for their own work, and we shouldn't pretend they aren't part of the organization too.

              5 votes
              1. [6]
                tindall
                Link Parent
                Supporting miners and saying "fuck United Steel" is no contradiction.

                I think the black police officers should get credit for their own work, and we shouldn't pretend they aren't part of the organization too.

                Supporting miners and saying "fuck United Steel" is no contradiction.

                12 votes
                1. [5]
                  skybrian
                  Link Parent
                  I think the difference is that there are clear sides in a union-management dispute. (I think that's one of the more unfortunate things about it, but the lines are clear.) It seems less clear with...

                  I think the difference is that there are clear sides in a union-management dispute. (I think that's one of the more unfortunate things about it, but the lines are clear.)

                  It seems less clear with racism since it's more like internal corruption. Like, which side is management really on? I doubt most managers want the workers to be doing racist stuff, and I doubt that racists act that way with management support. Well, maybe it depends on the manager.

                  2 votes
                  1. [4]
                    NaraVara
                    Link Parent
                    It’s sounding like the management in that case was racist itself. That kind of endemic racism doesn’t persist if management isn’t okay with it.

                    It’s sounding like the management in that case was racist itself. That kind of endemic racism doesn’t persist if management isn’t okay with it.

                    4 votes
                    1. [3]
                      skybrian
                      Link Parent
                      I don't know, not having studied or having any connections to police work. It seems plausible that it might be driven underground, but hard to root out?

                      I don't know, not having studied or having any connections to police work. It seems plausible that it might be driven underground, but hard to root out?

                      1. [2]
                        SantalBlush
                        Link Parent
                        Then we have two general cases: Police are openly racist, or bad at concealing their racism. Then their continued presence suggests that management is racist or sympathetic to racism. Police...

                        Then we have two general cases:

                        1. Police are openly racist, or bad at concealing their racism. Then their continued presence suggests that management is racist or sympathetic to racism.

                        2. Police successfully conceal their racism. Some of them will inevitably be promoted to higher positions, resulting in racist management.

                        2 votes
                        1. skybrian
                          Link Parent
                          Other possibilities to consider: Maybe anonymous stuff happens and it's hard to figure out who did it. (And, then the question is how hard did they look?) Maybe they know who the bad actors are,...

                          Other possibilities to consider:

                          • Maybe anonymous stuff happens and it's hard to figure out who did it. (And, then the question is how hard did they look?)
                          • Maybe they know who the bad actors are, but it's hard to prove it, at least to the satisfaction of the union?
                          • Maybe there is union leadership that's racist and they protect their own?
                          • Maybe some cops are friends with someone powerful, like members of Congress?

                          There are lots of scenarios. We are outsiders. Every organization has internal politics, and we don't know how it works or how screwed up it is.

                          3 votes
      4. [3]
        kfwyre
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I agree with you that we need police and that it’s important that we highlight and support those who choose to uphold their duties and the law, particularly when they do so in the face of death or...

        I agree with you that we need police and that it’s important that we highlight and support those who choose to uphold their duties and the law, particularly when they do so in the face of death or potential harm. That is not something I take lightly at all. I’ve also spoken out against inflammatory language here on Tildes on multiple occasions, so it feels a little weird for me to be okay with this, but I think it’s important to note that “fuck the police” has a long-standing history as its own specific protest phrase against racism and brutality in law enforcement. It’s not what I would choose to say here, but I do think it’s different from other examples of inflammatory discourse because it has a well-established cultural context. I take it less at face value and more as shorthand for placing the events at the Capitol within a history of racist abuses enacted by law enforcement (though this event was noteworthy not for continuing the pattern but for confirming the inverse).

        6 votes
        1. [2]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          I guess, but I'm thinking of that sanewashing post I shared a while back about whether "defund the police" really means "defund the police." I don't think having inflammatory slogans stand for...

          I guess, but I'm thinking of that sanewashing post I shared a while back about whether "defund the police" really means "defund the police." I don't think having inflammatory slogans stand for more reasonable positions makes sense? At best, it's begging to be misinterpreted.

          7 votes
          1. kfwyre
            Link Parent
            That’s definitely a valid point, and I have the exact same complaint about “defund the police”. The difference to me between “fuck” and “defund” is that there is a much bigger cultural precedent...

            That’s definitely a valid point, and I have the exact same complaint about “defund the police”. The difference to me between “fuck” and “defund” is that there is a much bigger cultural precedent to the former that there isn’t for the latter. I’ve heard many iterations of “fuck the police” over the years — almost always as a response to egregious injustices — but “defund” was new to me this year and was almost immediately dizzying for my inability to pin down its actual meaning. Presumably it does take time for things like that to gain their cultural foothold and settle into shared meaning, but much of the “defund” discussion I saw felt almost like it was in bad faith. “Fuck” has a much more clear and consistent meaning to me.

            That said, I’m really only mentioning this to shine a contextual light rather than as a full-throated defense. Not only do I not subscribe to “fuck the police” as a philosophy, but the original NWA song also has a homophobic line about whether or not police are “fags”, so this isn’t exactly something I’d be thrilled to throw my weight behind even if I did agree with its message. For me it’s mostly about not standing in its way rather than giving it an endorsement. It’s usually used by people of color as a way of expressing anger at the unfair treatment they receive and the disproportionate harms levied on them by the police. Even if I don’t endorse the specific form of messaging, I still think it’s important that their message be heard.

            6 votes
    3. GoingMerry
      Link Parent
      A lot of Trump supporters deny the idea of systematic racism in America. The fact that police officers can be openly racist at work for years without repercussions pretty much proves it’s...

      A lot of Trump supporters deny the idea of systematic racism in America. The fact that police officers can be openly racist at work for years without repercussions pretty much proves it’s existence, iMO.

      9 votes
  2. [3]
    dubteedub
    Link
    Entire National Mall to close on Inauguration Day

    The entire National Mall will be closed for Inauguration Day, only accessible by media and security personnel, according to two people familiar with the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive security issues.

    The extraordinary closure is the latest in a series of security measures to harden the city against the type of violence that rocked the Capitol on Jan. 6. Local and federal officials had already established a downtown security zone and called up more than 20,000 National Guard troops to protect the presidential swearing in on Jan. 20.

    The move is significant because the Mall has been the traditional site where much of the general public has gathered to view the inauguration at the Capitol in person and on large jumbotrons.

    14 votes
    1. tindall
      Link Parent
      Honestly, this is probably a great idea anyway, just from a COVID control standpoint.

      Honestly, this is probably a great idea anyway, just from a COVID control standpoint.

      11 votes
    2. Omnicrola
      Link Parent
      $5 says Trump comments on how small Biden's inauguration crowd size is. Oh wait, no Twitter....

      $5 says Trump comments on how small Biden's inauguration crowd size is. Oh wait, no Twitter....

      9 votes
  3. spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    President Trump has reportedly instructed his aides to cease payments to his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani following weeks of efforts aimed at overturning the results of the 2020 election I am...
    11 votes
  4. [3]
    spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    George Washington University has a page tracking all charges filed so far related to the invasion of the Capitol

    George Washington University has a page tracking all charges filed so far related to the invasion of the Capitol

    In keeping with our tradition of providing primary source documents to the research community and the public at large, The Program on Extremism has launched a project to create a central database of court records related to the events of January 6, 2021. This page will be updated as additional individuals are charged with criminal activities and new records are introduced into the criminal justice system.

    10 votes
    1. [2]
      dubteedub
      Link Parent
      The Department of Justice also has a simple webpage tracking all of their investigations of the insurrection on January 6th. https://www.justice.gov/opa/investigations-regarding-violence-capitol...

      The Department of Justice also has a simple webpage tracking all of their investigations of the insurrection on January 6th.

      https://www.justice.gov/opa/investigations-regarding-violence-capitol

      It is a nice clean sheet that lists the names of each individual, their charges, links to press releases / charging documents, and timeline of their case status (when arrested, hearing date, etc.).

      13 votes
      1. cfabbro
        Link Parent
        Oh, damn. Thanks for that link. I have just been scouring the https://www.justice.gov/news and https://www.justice.gov/usao/pressreleases for ones related to the Capitol riots/insurrection. I had...

        Oh, damn. Thanks for that link. I have just been scouring the https://www.justice.gov/news and https://www.justice.gov/usao/pressreleases for ones related to the Capitol riots/insurrection. I had no idea they made a specific page for it. That will save me a bunch of time.

        2 votes
  5. [4]
    cfabbro
    Link
    Newly-elected GOP congresswoman says she’ll file articles of impeachment against Biden on Jan. 21 What the actual fuck. This farcical bullshit from Republicans is never going to end, is it?...

    Newly-elected GOP congresswoman says she’ll file articles of impeachment against Biden on Jan. 21

    Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, a Republican from Georgia, said in a tweet she would file Articles of Impeachment against Biden on Jan. 21. That’s one day after the inauguration of Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris.

    “I would like to announce on behalf of the American people, we have to make sure that our leaders are held accountable,” she said. “We cannot have a president of the United States that is willing to abuse the power of the office of the presidency and be easily bought off by foreign governments, Chinese energy companies, Ukrainian energy companies.”

    What the actual fuck. This farcical bullshit from Republicans is never going to end, is it? <exasperated sigh>

    10 votes
    1. Deimos
      Link Parent
      Marjorie Taylor Greene is basically Internet Conspiracy Theories: The Congresswoman. I'm sure there's going to be a lot more, uh... interesting stuff coming from her for however long she stays in...

      Marjorie Taylor Greene is basically Internet Conspiracy Theories: The Congresswoman. I'm sure there's going to be a lot more, uh... interesting stuff coming from her for however long she stays in Congress.

      7 votes
    2. NaraVara
      Link Parent
      As soon as they get a moment to coordinate they settle on a bald-faced lie to validate whatever they’re doing. It will always happen because our media overlords insist on legitimizing lying as...

      As soon as they get a moment to coordinate they settle on a bald-faced lie to validate whatever they’re doing. It will always happen because our media overlords insist on legitimizing lying as just a difference of opinion or perspective.

      7 votes
    3. acdw
      Link Parent
      I was kind of wondering if/when they'd be doing this .. day 1's definitely a record, eh? I wonder if they'll try filing impeachments against all possible future Democratic presidents just for...

      I was kind of wondering if/when they'd be doing this .. day 1's definitely a record, eh? I wonder if they'll try filing impeachments against all possible future Democratic presidents just for safety's sake.

      What the actual fuck. This farcical bullshit from Republicans is never going to end, is it? <exasperated sigh>

      It's not, sadly. I don't even know the balm for this any more. Honestly, I think the cure would involve some pretty authoritarian shit as well.

      4 votes
  6. floweringmind
    Link
    Found this interesting: Beau of the Fifth Column Let's talk about Trump's second impeachment and McConnell.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x-lvlZiIZw

    Found this interesting:

    Beau of the Fifth Column
    Let's talk about Trump's second impeachment and McConnell....
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x-lvlZiIZw

    8 votes
  7. [7]
    kfwyre
    Link
    One week later, what do Americans make of the Capitol attack?
    8 votes
    1. [2]
      cfabbro
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      The only worry I have with that survey is, when the majority of Republicans answered that the Capitol insurrection was "bad" or "tragic", and are "disappointed, angry, or depressed"... do they...

      The only worry I have with that survey is, when the majority of Republicans answered that the Capitol insurrection was "bad" or "tragic", and are "disappointed, angry, or depressed"... do they think and feel those things because it was disgraceful behavior by Trump supporters (like most Dems do), or only because it failed? I really hope they are coming from the same place as Dems are about this, but given the state of things, and the fact that 70% of Rs believe Antifa was involved despite no evidence to support that, I'm sadly not very hopeful that is the case. Maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic though.

      10 votes
      1. kfwyre
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        You're not being pessimistic. I actually cut out some heavily editorialized comments I had originally made in favor of posting the link on its own. The fact that 70% of Republicans believe that...

        You're not being pessimistic. I actually cut out some heavily editorialized comments I had originally made in favor of posting the link on its own.

        The fact that 70% of Republicans believe that antifa were involved with the Capitol attack means that misinformation is working, and it's working well. I don't know what to do with this. I don't know how you counteract it. People I know -- in real life -- believe this. People I know -- in real life -- won't hear me if I try to talk to them about it because any attempt at countering just further reinforces their belief. It's like trying to pull out a splinter but you end up just driving it further in.

        I had an extensive conversation with my conservative Christian mother about the events of the past week. She is not a Trump supporter, but nearly all of her friends are. For the good of their relationships she has stopped discussing politics with them for the most part, but she said this week she asked many of them, individually, if they believe the election results were fraudulent. All of them said yes.

        She described to me how isolated she feels from them, and how difficult it is for her not to judge them. Her exact words were "it is very hard for me to love them right now", and hearing that about broke my heart. Misinformation is cannibalizing her closest personal relationships with people she has known and cared about deeply for decades of her life.

        When I saw the numbers in this poll, my heart sank, because it feels like at this point we're fighting the tide. Misinformation is mainstream. It is not a fringe belief. In certain populations, it is a majority belief. And it's self-innoculating against opposition. My mom's friends won't even listen to her -- a fellow Republican -- when she counters falsehoods. They're definitely not listening to me -- her gay leftist son. We wouldn't even be able to start to have the conversation in the first place.

        10 votes
    2. [4]
      Kuromantis
      Link Parent
      I'm surprised that only 60% of Democrats disagree with the statement that antifa was involved and 15% agree. I think the most notable result however is that 2/3rds of Democrats think that the...

      I'm surprised that only 60% of Democrats disagree with the statement that antifa was involved and 15% agree.

      I think the most notable result however is that 2/3rds of Democrats think that the Capitol rioters represent most Trump supporters. Given 7/10 Republicans think antifa was in the riots, I wonder if treating Republican voters as ideological enemies first and people second might actually take hold within large sectors of the Democratic party's electorate. (Well, at least the parts that haven't been discriminated by Republicans for a while.)

      6 votes
      1. [3]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        This hinges on how they interpret the word “represent” and we can’t ask them what they meant by that. Knowing the original wording of the survey question would help a little.

        This hinges on how they interpret the word “represent” and we can’t ask them what they meant by that. Knowing the original wording of the survey question would help a little.

        5 votes
        1. [2]
          Kuromantis
          Link Parent
          Fortunately they link to a (monstrous) PDF telling us that at the beginning of the article: They also have data for a few demographics individually.

          Fortunately they link to a (monstrous) PDF telling us that at the beginning of the article:

          The Economist/YouGov Poll
          January 10 - 12, 2021 - 1500 U.S. Adult Citizens

          1. Represent Trump Supporters

          Do you feel like the Trump supporters who took over the Capitol building to stop Congressional proceedings represent most supporters of Donald Trump or
          not?

          They also have data for a few demographics individually.

          5 votes
          1. skybrian
            Link Parent
            Thanks! I guess we’re not going to find out what people meant by “represent.” Maybe some other survey will ask different questions.

            Thanks! I guess we’re not going to find out what people meant by “represent.” Maybe some other survey will ask different questions.

            2 votes
  8. [3]
    cfabbro
    Link
    FBI arrests Arkansas man facing charges in US Capitol riot accused of beating DC officer with American flag

    FBI arrests Arkansas man facing charges in US Capitol riot accused of beating DC officer with American flag

    Authorities said Stager was seen in videos post to social media of the riot in which he was holding an American flag on a pole, using that pole as a weapon to strike a member of the Washington Metro Police Department who was working to secure the building.

    Investigators claim a second video shows Stager saying, “Everybody in there is a treasonous traitor. Death is the only remedy for what’s in that building,” referring to the lawmakers in the U.S. Capitol.

    A witness told the investigators that Stager said he did not realize the person he was hitting with the flagpole was a police officers, believing instead that the person was “ANTIFA.”

    Authorities, however, said that photos of the events clearly show markings identifying the victim as an officer with the MPD.

    The witness said Stager claimed that he wanted to apologize for his behavior and planned to turn himself into authorities, and only made the comments he did on camera because he had been hit with pepper spray.

    Authorities used Arkansas state records to identify Stager. It is expected that he will face charges of obstructing a federal officer, civil disorder and other crimes.

    7 votes
    1. MimicSquid
      Link Parent
      Those are some amazingly poor excuses.

      Those are some amazingly poor excuses.

      7 votes
    2. Muffin
      Link Parent
      Those excuses are perfect. Some day there is going to be a history book citing this man.

      Those excuses are perfect. Some day there is going to be a history book citing this man.

      3 votes
  9. skybrian
    Link
    The Washington Post has a long read, based on interviews with the police, giving an idea of the scale of the riot. How battered D.C. police made a stand against the Capitol mob [..]

    The Washington Post has a long read, based on interviews with the police, giving an idea of the scale of the riot.

    How battered D.C. police made a stand against the Capitol mob

    These police leaders talked of battles using metaphors typically reserved for wars, describing fighting on three fronts, including the West Terrace, one of the few places where police prevented rioters from breaking through. Had those rioters succeeded, authorities said, thousands more people could have poured into the Capitol, with possible catastrophic consequences.

    [..]

    Help soon arrived. Police from Virginia — from Arlington and Fairfax counties, along with state troopers — and from Maryland, from Montgomery and Prince George’s counties, replaced hurt and tired D.C. officers on the front lines.

    Pushing people down from the Capitol proved difficult. “We were literally taking 15 to 20 minutes to get each stair back,” Glover said.

    5 votes