64 votes

By selectively breeding forty generations of silver fox over the course of sixty years, researchers managed to make them as friendly as dogs

32 comments

  1. [2]
    Coyote
    Link
    It's a domestication experiment, to study the genetic changes that occur in animals as they become more tame-- but the idea was to study those processes, not necessarily because the scientists...
    • Exemplary

    It's a domestication experiment, to study the genetic changes that occur in animals as they become more tame-- but the idea was to study those processes, not necessarily because the scientists believed they could truly domesticate an animal in the scant span of a human lifetime or even a few human lifespans.
    The foxes themselves are not actually domesticated any more than any other strain of fur farm fox; the research was actually quite controversial among other zoologists and fur farmers alike, because they do some misrepresentation of their animals. Their findings-- floppy ears, curled tails, high white-marking... Are all already found in many other strains of farmed fox elsewhere in the world.
    Whitemarks and Platinums both produce animals with just as much, if not more white found in the strains used in the experiment. They started with fur farmed foxes because they were already somewhat tame; so there is already question as to whether these genes were found in the backgrounds of the animals they started with, even if they didn't show on the phenotype of the fox itself.

    Flopped ears and curly tails are just usually culled for in most bloodlines because they produce a pelt considered to be inferior quality (for most garment use, I don't think it matters, stoles that use full heads and tails haven't really been fashionable for decades). Some of their conclusions were picked up on by journalists, the public at large & even some other scientists for the -wrong reasons- & that has been a very frustrating part of the whole thing.

    The research does have merit! Recording these changes formally (such as the minute brain size changes that are rarely mentioned in media coverage of the experiments) is important to understanding the processes that went into domesticating other animals and determining what events likely occurred first. It's just not as groundbreaking or new as some people have been led to believe. Encouraging people to breed foxes (and other animals bred for fur) for temperament and less stress in confinement is a good thing, even if it had already been happening for decades in much of the rest of Europe and the Americas before the Russian experiment even started.
    Farmed mink are a very good example of this, anyone that thinks tame fur farm mink are spicy (and compared to a ferret, that is actually a domesticated animal that has been with humans for thousands of years, they are!) has not yet had the experience of trying to handle a truly wild one.

    But there is a very broad misunderstanding with the public between domesticated & tamed (and to an extent, feral as well) that has not been adequately addressed by most of the journalists talking about this experiment.
    Left to breed on their own, these changes would not wholly self-sustain the same way that they do in feral dog populations-- even the ones dangerous to humans!-- that have apart from humans for even hundreds of years, because dogs are domesticated animals with thousands of years and hundreds of thousands of generations behind them. Even dingoes retain traces of their domesticated past in terms of changes to areas of their brain, and they have been (mostly) outside of human control for thousands, not merely hundreds of years. :P

    Tangentially, that broad misapprehension of the difference also leads to annoyances like people trying to fight for the "rights of wild mustangs"... That are simply feral populations that we abandoned in the first place, damage the environments they aren't native to, and do better in human care. They tame down quickly and become trustworthy because they were not actually wild. No matter how much time you spend working with a truly wild equine species, you aren't going to come away with an animal that is behaviorally close to one of those "mustangs". There have been a few people that have done some truly impressive work with zebras or other wild asses, but they are very aware these animals are very much the exceptions in the hands of very talented (and sometimes equally questionably moral) trainers and not examples of the baseline of their species.

    25 votes
    1. Positivesum
      Link Parent
      This reply is amazing. Thank you so so much for the nuanced and informative take!

      This reply is amazing. Thank you so so much for the nuanced and informative take!

  2. cfabbro
    (edited )
    Link
    The Verge filmed a video a few years ago with several of the Belyaev foxes that were imported to the US: We met the world’s first domesticated foxes

    The Verge filmed a video a few years ago with several of the Belyaev foxes that were imported to the US:
    We met the world’s first domesticated foxes

    12 votes
  3. [24]
    misk
    Link
    While this fox breeding is morally very weird, I must wonder why did they settle on dog level friendliness rather than cat level or my ex-girlfriend level of friendliness.

    While this fox breeding is morally very weird, I must wonder why did they settle on dog level friendliness rather than cat level or my ex-girlfriend level of friendliness.

    20 votes
    1. [2]
      GenuinelyCrooked
      Link Parent
      I know you're joking about cats, but they actually can be quite friendly, they just don't use their body language the same way as dogs.

      I know you're joking about cats, but they actually can be quite friendly, they just don't use their body language the same way as dogs.

      29 votes
    2. [2]
      TeaMusic
      Link Parent
      I don't have many moral qualms about domesticating foxes (as long as the foxes are cared for) but I do have an issue with purposely breeding foxes to be aggressive (which these researchers did)....

      While this fox breeding is morally very weird

      I don't have many moral qualms about domesticating foxes (as long as the foxes are cared for) but I do have an issue with purposely breeding foxes to be aggressive (which these researchers did).

      Years ago I saw a video about this experiment, and if I remember correctly not only did docile traits emerge much quicker than they expected in the domestication group, but the aggressive group very quickly became too aggressive to survive, as well. By "too aggressive to survive" I mean that in the aggressive group they had to take the fox pups away from their mom as soon as they were born, else the mom would kill the pups.

      The article indicates that domesticated foxes have hormone levels that indicate lower stress and greater happiness. I'm okay with this. But I'm not happy with the flip side that has foxes stressed and miserable and so aggressive that they kill the same babies that the rest of us mammals have a visceral need to protect due to a more natural "healthy" evolutionary process. It's inhumane, and I hope they stopped that part of the experiment early on, but unfortunately OP's link doesn't indicate that it was ever stopped at all. Sometimes just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something.

      23 votes
      1. pizza_rolls
        Link Parent
        And therein lies the issue with any attempts at domesticating wild animals. The foxes were friendly sure, but were they as trainable as dogs? Do they require special housing in comparison to a...

        as long as the foxes are cared for

        And therein lies the issue with any attempts at domesticating wild animals. The foxes were friendly sure, but were they as trainable as dogs? Do they require special housing in comparison to a dog? A special diet?

        For example, look at savannah cats. F1 and F2 are technically "domesticated" but far more wild than any housecat. Unless the owner is able to build them a large enough outdoor enclosure with proper stimulation they usually end up being rehomed or neglected because they are destructive.

        Visit any wildlife rescue and see what happens when people own wild animals. They are friendly as hell, which is exactly their downfall. That's why they can never be released into the wild. They are trapped in between being too wild and too tame for the rest of their life because someone thought they could take care of them as a pet.

        A lot of people don't even take proper care of their domesticated cats, dogs, etc that suffer when having to live on their own. Which is why there are millions of them are euthanized every year. We definitely don't need to introduce wild animals into that clusterfuck, as friendly as they may be.

        The exotic pet trade needs to die yesterday

        7 votes
    3. [18]
      Positivesum
      Link Parent
      I wonder what would happen if we kept selecting dogs for friendliness. We're going to surpass the limits of friendliness.

      I wonder what would happen if we kept selecting dogs for friendliness. We're going to surpass the limits of friendliness.

      5 votes
      1. [11]
        boxer_dogs_dance
        Link Parent
        This is an idea that would almost certainly get me flamed on reddit but I guess here I can risk it. Up until very recently problematic dogs were culled without mercy. A farm dog that killed...

        This is an idea that would almost certainly get me flamed on reddit but I guess here I can risk it. Up until very recently problematic dogs were culled without mercy. A farm dog that killed chickens or sheep, or a pit bull that savaged a human handler was not tolerated and not rehomed. Pets that were aggressive were likewise gotten rid of although guard dogs were valued. Subreddits like reactive dogs suggest that we are a lot more merciful now but I sure hope those dogs are not creating puppies.

        13 votes
        1. [7]
          creesch
          Link Parent
          Up until very recently the opposite was also true. Guard dogs used to be much more or prevalent as an example. I honestly don't think your idea of aggressive dogs being culled holds up historically.

          Up until very recently the opposite was also true. Guard dogs used to be much more or prevalent as an example. I honestly don't think your idea of aggressive dogs being culled holds up historically.

          1 vote
          1. [4]
            vektor
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Is that really in conflict? Sounds to me like it's perfectly reasonable to have a guard dog that will alert and even attack strangers under the right circumstances (e.g. strangers on home turf...

            Is that really in conflict? Sounds to me like it's perfectly reasonable to have a guard dog that will alert and even attack strangers under the right circumstances (e.g. strangers on home turf when the owner is sleeping) but not aggressive to strangers when the owner is there or the dog is not on its home turf. The more utilitarian view that boxer_dogs_dance describes seems quite plausible given past views of animals in general.

            I can certainly (cynically) imagine we're in a world in which we've shifted from aggressively breeding for behavioral traits and culling those that don't fit in, towards breeding for aesthetic gain and training away any undesirable behavior. Leaving us with a bit of a forever-debt of having to invest more training to fix past breeding mistakes.

            2 votes
            1. [2]
              sweenish
              Link Parent
              Breeding for aesthetics is at least as bad. Bulldogs and Dalmatians are prime examples of this. Same with white tigers. The inbreeding and subsequent health problems just to have an aesthetic...

              Breeding for aesthetics is at least as bad. Bulldogs and Dalmatians are prime examples of this. Same with white tigers. The inbreeding and subsequent health problems just to have an aesthetic can’t really be considered better than breeding for behavior.

              Even German shepherds have suffered from this.

              1 vote
              1. vektor
                Link Parent
                To be clear, I completely agree. I see gain in breeding for behavior, as long as the behavior you target is ethical. It's a very reasonable thing to do, and you can take the humane approach of...

                To be clear, I completely agree. I see gain in breeding for behavior, as long as the behavior you target is ethical. It's a very reasonable thing to do, and you can take the humane approach of sterilizing "out-of-spec" individuals, rather than culling them; same effect really, long term. I think the modern focus on breeding for aesthetics instead of more beneficial, but maybe harder to quantify characteristics is a disgrace. I'd rather have a pink dog that's healthy and behaviorally compatible with human society, than the cutest little chihuahua with a skull too large to be safely birthed and aggression to make a pitbull blush. Fortunately, at least wrt. health issues, there is now noticably growing awareness of the problem.

                But again, that entirely depends on what behavior you're breeding for. It's easily possible to breed for bad behavioral traits, but I'm of the less-than-informed impression that we're (collectively) not really breeding for any kind of behavior at all.

                Actually, let me correct myself here a bit, to make myself more clear:

                I can certainly (cynically) imagine a world imagine we're in a world

                1 vote
            2. creesch
              Link Parent
              You are looking at dogs from a fairly modern view, is what I am saying. Historically speaking a lot of dogs where purely looked at from a utility perspective. Where for example a guard dog of...

              You are looking at dogs from a fairly modern view, is what I am saying. Historically speaking a lot of dogs where purely looked at from a utility perspective. Where for example a guard dog of course shouldn't attack the wrong sort of people but where more often than not they also didn't need to be friendly either.

              I am typing this from my phone, otherwise I would have expanded more on it with actual examples and different examples as well.

              1 vote
          2. [2]
            boxer_dogs_dance
            Link Parent
            You either misunderstood me or I wasn't clear. Dogs were culled if they were not fit for purpose. Guard dogs were bred to be aggressive but also managable by handlers.

            You either misunderstood me or I wasn't clear. Dogs were culled if they were not fit for purpose. Guard dogs were bred to be aggressive but also managable by handlers.

        2. [3]
          Drewbahr
          Link Parent
          Similarly, dog training has seen significant changes in the past several years, along with the availability of certain medications for dogs and a better understanding on how said meds affect them....

          Similarly, dog training has seen significant changes in the past several years, along with the availability of certain medications for dogs and a better understanding on how said meds affect them. There are some dogs that would have been viewed as "lost causes" back in the day, that can now be carefully rehomed and/or retrained such that they can live out their lives in relative peace - so long as certain training regimens are kept, certain medications are used, and so long as the owners have a strong grasp of what risks the dog poses/posed.

          I don't believe it's a nature vs. nurture argument. It's both. That's a cop-out answer I know, but I speak from some experience on the issue. Dog behavior cannot possibly be only based on "nature", otherwise there'd be no unsafely-aggressive dogs. And it cannot be only due to "nurture", as aggressive dogs can be found in just about any lineage.

          It's true, some breeds of dog have more of a tendency towards aggression than others - but that is only that; a tendency. A predisposition, if you will, one that responsible owners will be aware of and have a proper handle on.

          1. [2]
            boxer_dogs_dance
            Link Parent
            As long as said dogs are sterilized, I applaud the people who are willing to take this on.

            As long as said dogs are sterilized, I applaud the people who are willing to take this on.

            1. Drewbahr
              Link Parent
              Responsible dog owners should be spaying/neutering anyway, regardless of the animal's temperament. But sterilization won't stop aggressive dogs from appearing; that's not really how genetics...

              Responsible dog owners should be spaying/neutering anyway, regardless of the animal's temperament. But sterilization won't stop aggressive dogs from appearing; that's not really how genetics works, and there's plenty of horrible owners/trainers out there that ensure that aggressive dogs will come about.

              2 votes
      2. [7]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [4]
          terr
          Link Parent
          For one, an animal that's too docile wouldn't be a good guard animal. I give my dog about a 50/50 chance to either bark at a stranger trying to break into our house or to go grab a toy for them to...

          For one, an animal that's too docile wouldn't be a good guard animal. I give my dog about a 50/50 chance to either bark at a stranger trying to break into our house or to go grab a toy for them to play with together. Fortunately that's not why we have him, so it's not like he's not fulfilling his role in the house, but it'd still be nice to know that he'd do something about an intruder.

          11 votes
          1. TeaMusic
            Link Parent
            "Why choose between attack or play when you could do both?" --My cat

            "Why choose between attack or play when you could do both?"

            --My cat

            14 votes
          2. [2]
            caninehere
            Link Parent
            I mean, my Shih Tzu will bark her head off but I don't think she's going to do much if an intruder comes in.

            I mean, my Shih Tzu will bark her head off but I don't think she's going to do much if an intruder comes in.

            1 vote
            1. Interesting
              Link Parent
              Actually, that's more useful than you would think. The last thing a burglar wants is a barking dog to attract attention.

              Actually, that's more useful than you would think. The last thing a burglar wants is a barking dog to attract attention.

              7 votes
        2. [2]
          eggpl4nt
          Link Parent
          There is the American Ragdoll cat, which might fit this definition. It is cautioned to keep these cats indoors, moreso than a typical housecat, because the Ragdoll's friendly and sweet nature...

          It makes you wonder if there is a level of "too docile".

          There is the American Ragdoll cat, which might fit this definition. It is cautioned to keep these cats indoors, moreso than a typical housecat, because the Ragdoll's friendly and sweet nature makes them susceptible to getting killed much easier. Like "I'll befriend this coyote" levels of friendly.

          11 votes
          1. TeaMusic
            Link Parent
            I never knew this about Ragdolls. To be honest, I was never a fan-- I'm a cat lover and one thing I love about cats is their "spiciness" (which my kitten that showed up at my door last November...

            I never knew this about Ragdolls. To be honest, I was never a fan-- I'm a cat lover and one thing I love about cats is their "spiciness" (which my kitten that showed up at my door last November has tons of) but Ragdolls just seem... lacking? To be fair to them, I've never actually met a rag doll, so maybe I'm too quick to judge.

            I've also never been the biggest fan of long-haired cats either-- I don't find it as aesthetically pleasing as short hair and it's higher maintenance.

            Fortunately most cats around here are domestic or (relatively rarely) exotic mixes with breeds I like (like siamese), all of which I love, so I end up being one of those people who walk into the shelter and want to adopt all the cats (alas, I only have two-- although I might get a third someday if I find the perfect fit).

    4. Benson
      Link Parent
      Is it morally less weird than just killing the foxes? Because that’s what happens to foxes in the wild.

      Is it morally less weird than just killing the foxes?

      Because that’s what happens to foxes in the wild.

      1 vote
  4. Octofox
    Link
    I wonder how much difference there is between a selectively bred domesticated fox, and just any random fox that has spent a lot of time with humans. At least what I have seen on youtube, it seems...

    I wonder how much difference there is between a selectively bred domesticated fox, and just any random fox that has spent a lot of time with humans. At least what I have seen on youtube, it seems furfarm rescue foxes which presumably have not been that domesticated seem to end up quite friendly given enough time. Foxes don't really seem aggressive, even completely wild ones, they just keep a distance and are quick to run away.

    An example of some foxes from the saveafox youtube channel There are quite a lot of foxes shown on the channel and they all seem to be reasonably friendly.

    The main thing that seems to make them not a good pet is they piss on everything and generally cause a lot of damage indoors.

    5 votes
  5. [4]
    akrie_skillissue
    Link
    So you're telling me now I have the choice of foxes for a pet that won't suck as well? Hell yeah, I'm a fox lifer

    So you're telling me now I have the choice of foxes for a pet that won't suck as well? Hell yeah, I'm a fox lifer

    6 votes
    1. [2]
      Karaoke
      Link Parent
      There got to be a downside somewhere - maybe they stink like a ferret. Plus they make those ungodly screaming sounds

      There got to be a downside somewhere - maybe they stink like a ferret. Plus they make those ungodly screaming sounds

      5 votes
    2. lou
      Link Parent
      They are docile but far from domesticated. So you should expect all the high maintenance of an exotic pet. But it's definitely doable.

      They are docile but far from domesticated. So you should expect all the high maintenance of an exotic pet. But it's definitely doable.

      3 votes