56 votes

The misogynistic, bigoted and crude US rally remarks Donald Trump hasn’t disavowed

26 comments

  1. DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    I thought this was worth its own post as this rally has been framed as a closing argument for Trump and I think that the NYT actually did a good job of not washing the offensive comments by...

    I thought this was worth its own post as this rally has been framed as a closing argument for Trump and I think that the NYT actually did a good job of not washing the offensive comments by skimming over them.

    I've seen other framing that it was supposed to be the closing argument but turned into a racist rally, but I personally believe the racism, sexism, bigotry and crudeness is the closing argument.

    33 votes
  2. [7]
    l_one
    Link
    ....wow. Some of that was straight-up calls to political violence. I shouldn't be surprised at this point, I really shouldn't, but I guess I had a little bit of disbelief left in me. We really...

    ....wow. Some of that was straight-up calls to political violence. I shouldn't be surprised at this point, I really shouldn't, but I guess I had a little bit of disbelief left in me.

    We really need some updates to the infrastructure of our democracy. Our current electoral system, which allows for the possibility of a mismatch between the popular vote and electoral vote, is antiquated and no longer relevant in the age of telecommunications.

    We also really need to switch over to some variation on ranked choice voting. The current system naturally trends towards creating a 2 party system with polarized opposite extremes. RCV allows for multiple candidates to remain viable and also allows people to choose a more moderate, middle of the road candidate, which further encourages less divisive campaign and election cycles.

    That's my two cents. Remove the electoral college and institute nationwide ranked choice voting.

    33 votes
    1. [5]
      teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      That same system used to give us 2 parties that were much closer to each other. I'd like ranked-choice voting. But first-past-the-post can't be the sole cause to our current political position.

      The current system naturally trends towards creating a 2 party system with polarized opposite extremes.

      That same system used to give us 2 parties that were much closer to each other. I'd like ranked-choice voting. But first-past-the-post can't be the sole cause to our current political position.

      14 votes
      1. [4]
        timo
        Link Parent
        The two parties working together is from a long time ago. When news moved slowly and most people wouldn’t even have access to any kinds is media. The problem with the two party system (which FPP...

        The two parties working together is from a long time ago. When news moved slowly and most people wouldn’t even have access to any kinds is media.

        The problem with the two party system (which FPP basically is) is that there is no incentive to work together. When your party is in power, you try to get stuff done, but when it’s the other you make sure they can’t. And vice versa. This makes real progress extremely difficult.

        A system that invites collaboration is so much better than a system where gaining ultimate power is the goal. Just look at European democracies (with some exceptions like the UK). Even when far right parties win, they often don’t have the majority. Meaning they still need to work together with more moderate parties to get stuff done.

        12 votes
        1. [3]
          bloup
          Link Parent
          in the past congresspeople also could use things like budget earmarks to make deals with each other. Like for instance, convincing a congressperson to vote in favor of a bill they don’t actually...

          in the past congresspeople also could use things like budget earmarks to make deals with each other. Like for instance, convincing a congressperson to vote in favor of a bill they don’t actually fully support by offering to apportion some of the budget to fund various projects in their home district. This would eventually come to be derogatorily known as pork spending, and made illegal in the early 2000s.

          10 votes
          1. Minori
            Link Parent
            It was actually sorta relegalized not too long ago which is part of why the infrastructure bill got passed under Biden.

            It was actually sorta relegalized not too long ago which is part of why the infrastructure bill got passed under Biden.

            8 votes
          2. public
            Link Parent
            Also anti-corruption and transparency laws encouraging extremism in lawmakers so they don’t get kicked out during a primary for being pragmatic in smoky backrooms.

            Also anti-corruption and transparency laws encouraging extremism in lawmakers so they don’t get kicked out during a primary for being pragmatic in smoky backrooms.

            3 votes
    2. Grumble4681
      Link Parent
      RCV is probably an inferior option, but STAR or just some type of score voting would be good, but also I think that needs to be combined with some proportional representation method. It's not...

      RCV is probably an inferior option, but STAR or just some type of score voting would be good, but also I think that needs to be combined with some proportional representation method.

      It's not enough to just say whoever gets 1st with some better voting system is the only one that gets representation. Just because you aren't part of the most popular bloc of voters doesn't mean you shouldn't have representation or have a voice. Of course at a certain point it does mean that you may not have much influence over things, but to me the whole point of a representative system is that you elect someone else to do the day-to-day work of fighting to have your perspectives considered within government because most people don't have the time, education or resources to fight those battles all the time while living their lives. You elect someone else whose job is to fight them for you. If you have reasonable perspectives your representatives may often work in coalitions to build support for things you care about.

      The difference between that and how we currently operate is that every single person has to constantly fight to have their voice heard because they rarely ever get someone who has an aligned set of values or perspectives to represent them since there are so few representatives to the overall population and because there's only one winner over a district etc. So at best they're just a set of functioning ears for which you have to scream non-stop and hope they eventually hear you.

      I don't think we personally need to decide or be knowledgeable enough to know what the optimal voting setup for us is to move the needle, but we do need more and more people to be aware of the problem until they're receptive to a solution, that way we can get more experts and resources devoted to evaluating the optimal voting systems for us.

      4 votes
  3. [14]
    Wolf_359
    Link
    I'm so disappointed. I enjoyed watching Kill Tony here and there. It was cool to see amateurs try their hands at comedy. Also, if you watch Tony Hinchcliffe's hard-to-find comedy special, it's...

    I'm so disappointed.

    I enjoyed watching Kill Tony here and there. It was cool to see amateurs try their hands at comedy. Also, if you watch Tony Hinchcliffe's hard-to-find comedy special, it's pretty funny. I kind of assumed he was more like Shane Gillis - riding the line of offensive and funny to create laughs, mocking the racists rather than race, "in on the joke" rather than legitimately punching down. Turns out that, nope, he's a piece of shit.

    13 votes
    1. phoenixrises
      Link Parent
      I've watched a couple of Kill Tony things, and Tony is easily the worst part of the show to be fair.

      I've watched a couple of Kill Tony things, and Tony is easily the worst part of the show to be fair.

      7 votes
    2. [11]
      DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Yeah I have no knowledge of him prior to this but I mean, explicit bigotry on basically every axis.... Yuck. But very very on brand for this candidate.

      Yeah I have no knowledge of him prior to this but I mean, explicit bigotry on basically every axis.... Yuck.

      But very very on brand for this candidate.

      4 votes
      1. [10]
        Wolf_359
        Link Parent
        You know, his jokes could be funny in a different setting. Even the watermelon and immigrant jokes - the most offensive in my opinion - could be funny if done with tact and good intentions in a...

        You know, his jokes could be funny in a different setting. Even the watermelon and immigrant jokes - the most offensive in my opinion - could be funny if done with tact and good intentions in a comedy club. I think Bill Burr or Shane Gillis could easily get away with it because they would be doing it in a respectfully offensive way.

        But Tony doing them at a fucking political rally where the candidate has repeatedly demonstrated racism and sexism? It's not funny at all. The fact that he even went out there to support Trump is disgusting.

        9 votes
        1. [2]
          sparksbet
          Link Parent
          I honestly don't think I'd respect anyone who willingly performed at a Trump rally no matter how good and squeaky-clean the jokes were. That the jokes were gross and racist is just icing on the...

          I honestly don't think I'd respect anyone who willingly performed at a Trump rally no matter how good and squeaky-clean the jokes were.

          That the jokes were gross and racist is just icing on the cake. You can go on about how someone else could've executed them better or more respectfully in a different context, which may or may not be true, but ultimately the context is intrinsic to the comedy.

          16 votes
          1. Wolf_359
            Link Parent
            Agreed 100%. That's actually my whole point. Sorry if I didn't portray that clearly.

            Agreed 100%. That's actually my whole point. Sorry if I didn't portray that clearly.

            8 votes
        2. [6]
          DefinitelyNotAFae
          Link Parent
          I don't think anyone else would have made the jokes, they're just not funny. Comedians didn't think so and he's been defending himself as "it's a joke" since.

          I don't think anyone else would have made the jokes, they're just not funny.
          Comedians didn't think so and he's been defending himself as "it's a joke" since.

          Stand-up and Silicon Valley actress Alice Wetterlund, wrote on Threads: “One of the highlights of my career was going on a show that Tony Hinchcliff was on at @hollywoodimprov and he was bringing women up from the audience and insulting them while they awkwardly giggle? Anyway I didn’t get that that was his ‘act’ so I opened my set by saying he looks like if Lance Armstrong f***** a clock. He looks like if you microwave Pete Davidson from frozen. He looks like Geppeto’s first draft before pinocchio

          Stand-up comic Ian Karmel, co-head writer for CBS' The Late Late Show with James Corden, didn’t sound like a fan either, posting: “big day on here for your favorite comedian’s least favorite comedian.”

          8 votes
          1. [5]
            Wolf_359
            Link Parent
            Good read. Thanks for sharing! As an aside, I don't find the jokes particularly funny but I'm imagining a better comedian sprinkling in a similar punch lines as part of a broader joke. I bring up...

            Good read. Thanks for sharing!

            As an aside, I don't find the jokes particularly funny but I'm imagining a better comedian sprinkling in a similar punch lines as part of a broader joke.

            I bring up Burr and Gillis because they're probably today's most popular offensive comedians. Bill Burr has a famous bit where he mocks "white guilt" movies and it's hilarious. But it contains some lines that you wouldn't find funny at a Trump rally for sure.

            Here are a few lines from his set without context - but this is an example of a time when the context really matters:

            "You guys don't eat cows? What are you, a bunch of f*gs?"

            "I'm not saying white people aren't evil because I know we're evil. I can feel it in me."

            "You can't fucking help these people."

            Similarly, Shane Gillis has a bit about the "funniest" school shooting..

            "I'm not saying it's funny. I said funniest. Like maybe there was one where the horse girl knew something was off that day."

            1 vote
            1. [4]
              DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              Yeah I generally like Bill Burr alright (don't watch his comedy though tbh) but I don't find the f-slur funny. And Shane Gillis is another one that uses slurs as jokes - I've not enjoyed his work...

              Yeah I generally like Bill Burr alright (don't watch his comedy though tbh) but I don't find the f-slur funny. And Shane Gillis is another one that uses slurs as jokes - I've not enjoyed his work either. I don't think I'd find the jokes funny at all. (Like what's funny about the slur one? Using the slur out of nowhere? Cool one of my students gets called that weekly, hilarious)

              Context matters for comedy sure, but all the more reason a list of questionable jokes won't "land". Most of the comments made at the rally were not jokes, they're just racist. Haha, Jewish stereotype? Puerto Rico is poor?

              3 votes
              1. [3]
                Wolf_359
                Link Parent
                Not sure if you saw the bit I posted, but in using the slur he's actually mocking the bigots. That context is crucial to the joke. I completely hear you and I'm obviously disgusted by Hinchcliffe...

                Not sure if you saw the bit I posted, but in using the slur he's actually mocking the bigots. That context is crucial to the joke.

                I completely hear you and I'm obviously disgusted by Hinchcliffe and his comments, but I think context is the key to whether something is funny or not.

                Burr has another joke where he uses the F slur. The entire joke is about how men will call each f*gs when they do anything remotely "feminine." Hilarious in this context because he's actually pointing out a real issue, criticizing toxic masculinity, and mocking how ridiculous it is.

                Imagine the same type of joke at a Trump rally except without the added layers. Hinchcliffe's version of the joke would have been a criticism of effeminate men. It would have been a joke where the person being called the f slur is the punchline. Burr's version is the other way around - the person using the slur is the punchline.

                I still think Hinchcliffe had every right to get on that stage and speak freely. He has the freedom to say what he wants, no matter how despicable. Of course, the caveat is that we are also free to be offended and disgusted by his comments, to not give him our money or attention, to criticize him. Businesses and websites are free to deny him a platform. He is free to say what he wants, but we don't have to laugh and he isn't free from consequences.

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  No, because I don't love having to watch a video in a discussion. But I don't know that I'd feel different about the use of the slur, I don't typically find slurs funny even in the context you...

                  No, because I don't love having to watch a video in a discussion. But I don't know that I'd feel different about the use of the slur, I don't typically find slurs funny even in the context you described. It's why Gillis is also not funny to me and thus I don't watch him. I respect Burr, in contrast, and I believe better of his intentions, but that doesn't mean I'd find the bit funny or that I like this is the method Burr uses to make the point he does.

                  I don't think anyone has said he doesn't have the right to speak, in some ways I'm glad he is helping to rip the mask off. But his whole backpedaling behind "I'm a comedian I'm just joking" and retweeting a Don Rickles video as a defense fell flat. He wasn't funny and he was racist and misogynist and anti-Semitic and more. He's a shit person for taking the job.

                  3 votes
                  1. Micycle_the_Bichael
                    Link Parent
                    I just finished watching the first 5 minutes of the Bill Burr video. I was unimpressed. IMO, the use of f*g wasn't necessary for the joke and really didn't add or do anything for the joke. I have...

                    I just finished watching the first 5 minutes of the Bill Burr video. I was unimpressed. IMO, the use of f*g wasn't necessary for the joke and really didn't add or do anything for the joke. I have heard slurs used in jokes that I have found extremely funny, this was not one of them. You didn't miss much by not watching.

                    4 votes
        3. updawg
          Link Parent
          Then again, if he's a really good comedian in the vein of Norm MacDonald, he could be doing this just to fuck with Donald Trump. Unfortunately, that would have no effect given all the other...

          Then again, if he's a really good comedian in the vein of Norm MacDonald, he could be doing this just to fuck with Donald Trump.

          Unfortunately, that would have no effect given all the other "scandals" Trump has escaped completely unscathed, so it wouldn't even be funny beyond Norm's "a joke is funny because it's unexpected, and you expect people to laugh at your jokes, so if no one laughs, that's funniest" (extreme paraphrasing).

    3. papasquat
      Link Parent
      Yeah. I tend to enjoy comedians like that too. I think Shane is hilarious. I think Nick Mullen is one of the funniest people to ever live. There are people who can use racism to make fun of...

      Yeah. I tend to enjoy comedians like that too. I think Shane is hilarious. I think Nick Mullen is one of the funniest people to ever live. There are people who can use racism to make fun of racists, or poke fun at weird racial hangups. That stuff is funny to me. The issue is that every so often, one of those comedians goes full mask off and you find out, oh no, nevermind, they actually believe all of that stuff, and their comedy isn't about being funny, it's about promoting their actual political opinions... ahem, Sam Hyde.

      Unfortunately it seems that a lot of the Austin comedy scene may be like this.

      I was really shocked and disappointed when I heard that Tony Hinchcliffe did a set at that rally, despite not really being a fan of his to begin with. It just makes all of his stuff retroactively lose all humor for me.

      3 votes
  4. pete_the_paper_boat
    Link
    It's got that "I think y'all are getting a bit too comfortable with this" kinda vibe.

    It's got that "I think y'all are getting a bit too comfortable with this" kinda vibe.

    6 votes