It took me a little while to realize that this thread was about some kind of multiple personality disorder and not the padded fat around someones genital region. Apparently that's a FUPA. In...
It took me a little while to realize that this thread was about some kind of multiple personality disorder and not the padded fat around someones genital region. Apparently that's a FUPA.
In response to the OP, no I definitely did not know about this before and I think I would have been happy staying ignorant.
There's likely not a causal link, but certainly there is a subset of people who use the concept as justification for a very real mental illness. Happens in countless echo-chamber communities, so...
There's likely not a causal link, but certainly there is a subset of people who use the concept as justification for a very real mental illness. Happens in countless echo-chamber communities, so much that there's a psychological term for it (I can't remember atm).
Violent video games don't cause violent behavior, but violent individuals are attracted to them b/c it reinforces their values.
Most stoners don't end up being crackheads, but the weed community typically provides positive feedback to people already predisposed to heavy drug use (compared to average culture), meaning addicts typically begin with weed and their addictive tendencies escalate from there. Again, ~95% of smokers don't end up like this, but the culture implicitly promotes it for weak-willed people nonetheless.
For most/all people who are awkward/lonely, it doesn't doom you to a life of virginity. But an enthusiastic community of misogynists may lead a depressed/isolated individual to believe his genes have eternally ruined his love life, women owe him sex, and it's their fault for ignoring him (AKA incels). Instead of seeking help/improvement (something incels discourage strongly), he accepts that he's incapable of being loved.
Check out an extreme example, "Targeted Individuals" on YouTube. An entire community of vulnerable people work together to reinforce schizophrenic paranoia, while actively discouraging psychiatric help. A vast government program created to subtly stalk innocent people. Surely there are sane conspiracy theorists who adhere to the idea, but communities like this that reject/ignore traditional support systems become a perfect storm to harbor mental illness.
Tulpas sound like they bring a lot of support/motivation for the people that create them, but every group I just mentioned also has a primary goal of supporting members within the community. Works for some, but the dangers of echo chambers can't be outright ignored.
I don't understand how they can be "autonomous" if she's dormant unless you call her up. Do some people have tulpas who are always on and can't be dormant? Do you feel like she is a part of you?...
I don't understand how they can be "autonomous" if she's dormant unless you call her up. Do some people have tulpas who are always on and can't be dormant?
Do you feel like she is a part of you? Or of your consciousness? Or does it feel like she is a totally separate being whose thoughts and feelings need to be considered? If you died, do you believe that she would die?
Btw, I'm not challenging you, just curious about your thought process.
I've had a tulpa for a number of years now. I would say overall it's been a positive experience and force in my life. He was created at a very dark time in my life and I needed an anchor of sorts,...
I've had a tulpa for a number of years now. I would say overall it's been a positive experience and force in my life. He was created at a very dark time in my life and I needed an anchor of sorts, and I'd say he did a decent job at it. He pulled me out of a number of panic attacks and depressive episodes. I understand that these things were likely possible without a tulpa. However, I've always been one who is bad at listening to myself, and tend to respond better to other people telling me what to do (like getting my brain off of a death spiral). My breakdowns almost always happened when I was alone, where the only person available to break myself out of it was myself. So always having someone, or at least what seems like someone else, to pull me out was valuable. I'd say tulpas are ultimately unnecessary though, and from my experiences talking with tulpas and their hosts I would advise against anyone creating tulpas as many things can go wrong. That said, overall I am very glad to be plural.
EDIT: I'd like to mention that I'm no longer in that dark part of my life anymore. I haven't had a depressive episodes, attacks, or any thoughts of self-harm in years. I'd say my life is pretty great and happy now. My tulpa is still around as him being here doesn't seem to interfere with my life much and we're pretty attached at this point.
As for what I think tulpas even are, I tend to have a pretty secular view on it and approach it with a high level of detached irony. My conception of it is that the brain has thoughts, and then these thoughts are assigned (or maybe a better word would be "attributed") to a personality of sorts. In most systems there is only one personality, so all thoughts are dumped onto them. But I think it's possible to train one's mind to sort of cordon off certain thoughts and not attribute it to the original personality. Essentially when I created my tulpa what I did was take the part of my thoughts that often ran in opposition to my other thoughts, the part of my psyche that often asked myself questions or played devil's advocate and tried to give it a consistent voice and personality. Eventually those thoughts became very different from my own.
So I wouldn't say tulpas and hosts are independently thinking from one another, but rather I'd say thought is something not specific to either and is then assigned to them accordingly. I view tulpas and hosts as being the same things in principle, they're just personalities we attribute thoughts to, a host is merely a personality that's been around longer.
Of course this is merely my conception of it, and there is zero evidence to support any of it, purely hypothetical.
I'll answer any questions anyone has to the best of my ability.
This triggered some memories. I remember back in the days of IRC, I shared a network - unbeknownst to me for the longest time - with a group of people with tulpas. Even back then, when I was in my...
This triggered some memories. I remember back in the days of IRC, I shared a network - unbeknownst to me for the longest time - with a group of people with tulpas.
Even back then, when I was in my teens, these people would be accurately described as being "well intentioned, but annoying". It seemed a lot of them were also part of anime/yiff communities, too.
It is interesting (and honestly a little scary) that there is a community around these. I created a tulpa before I knew they had a name. I created it through hypnosis some time around 2007. It was...
It is interesting (and honestly a little scary) that there is a community around these. I created a tulpa before I knew they had a name. I created it through hypnosis some time around 2007. It was part of the darkest period of my life; my biggest motivation to create it was loneliness.
The hypnosis script I used called for a tiny pocket-sized furry assistant (this was also the most embarrassing period of my life) to help you through your day. The idea was that they were supposed to help you remember things. She was never fully visible, but she was the most vivid mental image I have ever been able to 'see'.
Honestly, if nobody had mentioned these kinds of things, I would have probably completely forgotten her. I don't even remember what I named her. I had the benefit of knowing she was never real to begin with. The longer I thought about her the more I realized that every aspect I designed for her was a part of myself. She vanished gradually in about a week or two, and I never bothered to reinforce her existence. She was a lousy assistant - she never remembered anything I didn't. :P
Someone else mentioned their tulpa had helped them to transition genders. While my story isn't quite that dramatic, I think that having her around may have helped me to admit to myself that I was gay. I came out of the closet about a year later. It turns out that you become much less isolated when you stop living a lie.
I never told anyone about my Tulpa, but I did gain some notoriety for my anonymous persona after I released the recording I made for the self-hypnosis.
I find people with them very interesting, but I don't have one myself and I don't think I have the willpower or focus to do so. In the typical fashion of the places where these kinds of people...
I find people with them very interesting, but I don't have one myself and I don't think I have the willpower or focus to do so.
In the typical fashion of the places where these kinds of people tend to gather, the overspecificity of the related vocabulary makes it a harder thing to accept, but I believe them and I'm sure some have made their own lives better as a result. Personally (as a complete layperson), I think we forget just how flimsy consciousness can be and what weird quirks we can find or force to exist within it. I'm not all that surprised by our local psychonaut being so active on this, it seems like a natural place of interest.
It's so harmless to others and the people involved are so apologetic and ready to be abused about it that I really feel bad for those involved. I'll put up with some tumblrisms and listen to 'em, god knows I don't have the ability to test it myself.
I have enough to do figuring out my own troubles, I don't need another person to hang out in my head. I like meditating, and do it frequently, but I would never want to use that to create a Tulpa....
I have enough to do figuring out my own troubles, I don't need another person to hang out in my head. I like meditating, and do it frequently, but I would never want to use that to create a Tulpa. I'd inevitable kill it, and It'd probably destabilize the mind palace i spent years building beyond repair.
There was a podcast from Reply All about Tulpas a few years back that talked pretty extensively to a woman who had a Tulpa, and discussed (in large part) how it ruined her marriage, to quote from...
There was a podcast from Reply All about Tulpas a few years back that talked pretty extensively to a woman who had a Tulpa, and discussed (in large part) how it ruined her marriage, to quote from a written reply given by her (then) ex-husband:
“I will try and show my perspective without shaming Shea [the woman with tulpas, who was the subject of the podcast].” He goes on to say that, to him, he felt like the tulpas were basically self-inflicted Multiple Personality Disorder and that he did not have interest in getting to know any of them and encouraging this behavior. So, let me read a little bit of it for you.
“I married Shea. I loved Shea. Not Jasmine or Veryn or Doc or any of the other imaginary things that she thought up in her mind.”
John wrote about feeling like she was unfaithful to him, like ... her tulpas were forming strong bonds--way too intimate--with other tulpas. Um, Shea had told him that if two tulpas fell in love, that didn’t mean that the tulpamancers would be cheating. And, um, and he wrote that, towards the end of the relationship, he said, quote: “Let me play devil’s advocate. Say I accept the tulpas. What does Christmas look like? Do I have Christmas with my wife and then we drive up to California so Shea’s Tulpa can celebrate Christmas with the tulpa’s husband? That is an open marriage.” Uh, “That is not what either of us vowed and committed to at our wedding day.”
And then he says, um, “I am utterly broken by all of this.”
I think you're overselling DID a bit. There's a lot of skepticism around the cause and the actual mechanisms involved. It's not even entirely clear just how "real" each identity is in those...
I think you're overselling DID a bit. There's a lot of skepticism around the cause and the actual mechanisms involved. It's not even entirely clear just how "real" each identity is in those diagnosed with DID. But considering there's some thought that DID is induced by psychotherapy it would be a reasonable hypothesis to suggest tulpas and DID have similar pathologies. Although there's not really a lot of evidence for either phenomenon to make any solid conclusions about anything.
Studies such as this suggest that DID is far beyond just a psycho-social occurrence and works at the neurological level. This study documents a case where blindness experienced by some altars of...
Studies such as this suggest that DID is far beyond just a psycho-social occurrence and works at the neurological level.
This study documents a case where blindness experienced by some altars of an individual and not others. This was confirmed by EEG imaging which showed this blindness was occurring due to selective activation of neural pathways related to vision. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17611729 /
Strictly on the subject of DID, you're right there used to be uncertainty, but the medical and scientific research of the last 15-20 years is pretty definitive that it is a real, observable condition.
Have there been cases of multiple alters running in parallel, or do they always occur in sequence? For example would it be possible for someone with DID to perform two math calculations...
Have there been cases of multiple alters running in parallel, or do they always occur in sequence? For example would it be possible for someone with DID to perform two math calculations simultaneously?
Also, are you the one a few weeks ago who made the case that the book Blindsight's take on DID was rather poor and not at all grounded in our current understanding?
Thanks for the sources, I can't wait do so some reading on this.
Good question, the literature and subjective reports of people with DID report that yes, alters can occur simultaneously. However, part of the diagnostic criteria for DID is the presence of...
Good question, the literature and subjective reports of people with DID report that yes, alters can occur simultaneously. However, part of the diagnostic criteria for DID is the presence of distinct personality states, defined as not simultaneously occurring. It's not uncommon for people with DID to have no direct experience of their alters. It seems to be dependent on the person and the diagnosis, as people with OSDD report concurrent alters at a much higher rate than people with DID, who are generally more separate from their alters.
People who say they have experienced multiple parallel alters describe it subjectively as not just hearing another voice etc, but describe feeling a mental presence which talks, thinks and so forth. This differentiates from schizophrenia, where voices are heard but are not felt to have an agent behind them. However, there have been no demonstrations of simultaneous cognitive tasks being executed by different alters. First-hand accounts suggest that processing power is felt as shared between different alters and the stronger presence of one comes at the expense of the weaker presence of another.
I have done years of research on the topic and believe what I have included above is accurate to the scientific consensus, but our neuroimaging tech or understanding of the brain isn't far enough to prove simultaneous alters definitively.
I was not the one who posted previously about DID but if you have a link, I would be curious to read.
I'd definitely like to see some research done on the parallelization of cognitive tasks through DID or other similar conditions. If at all possible I suspect the bottleneck of resource sharing...
I'd definitely like to see some research done on the parallelization of cognitive tasks through DID or other similar conditions. If at all possible I suspect the bottleneck of resource sharing would probably be significant, but theoretically more of a wiring problem than anything else due to the fact that there wouldn't really be significant plasticity pressure to optimize for parallelization.
This is obviously conjecture but I'm basing it on what I've read about how impressively people are often able to recover from hemispherectomies, where at least in one case I'm thinking of an individual (after a few years) still retained or recovered with an above average intelligence, social skills, propensity for language, etc. Plasticity seems to win over raw mass under the right circumstances.
Though on the subject of multiple parallel consciousnesses it would almost be tempting to get a corpus collosectomy and see how each hemisphere adapts once segregated and (arguably) independently conscious.
You raise some interesting questions., I would love to see research done on the topic as well. I suspect you're correct that there is not sufficient pressure to optimize for parallelization of...
You raise some interesting questions., I would love to see research done on the topic as well. I suspect you're correct that there is not sufficient pressure to optimize for parallelization of certain cognitive tasks.
I'm not sure if multitasking really counts. I'd define that more as a propensity to switch back and forth between tasks with relatively minimal loss of fidelity, in other words not needing to ramp...
I'm not sure if multitasking really counts. I'd define that more as a propensity to switch back and forth between tasks with relatively minimal loss of fidelity, in other words not needing to ramp back up to speed and iron out the wrinkles in short term memory as much during the switch. One zigzagged thread versus two. A different beast than independent conscious processes solving different tasks simultaneously.
Conscious processes...
Now that I think of it a great degree of relatively complex cognitive workload can be delegated to unconscious processes. One can probably think through a problem with minimal performance impact while, say, walking or driving while never really thinking about the latter two, with those subconscious processes only pinging the conscious one when some relatively complex decision or need for perception takes place...
Walk and chew gum. Parallelization occurs all the time, just past the periphery of consciousness.
Consciousness's role might be a bit more banal than we'd hope, then. We've all done that thing we're were cleaning up after a meal without paying attention and erroneously put the milk in the freezer after which something feels "off", and our focus snaps back in; we become aware of the problem. We then open the freezer again and put the milk in the fridge where it belongs. And yet as a child if we're doing the same task for the first time we're thinking it through every step of the way.
Maybe that's all it's really for. A tool, a feedback loop, for distilling out and extrapolating exterior and novel complexities and correlated actions, and translating them into native neurochemistry, into intuition. An adaptation to a world moving faster than natural selection would be able to rewire instinct.
Maybe consciousness is just a glorified compiler with awareness as a side effect.
And so I think those moments during a task done inattentively where the unconscious processes ping the conscious one to address some complication might be really interesting to study. We so often place the emphasis on conscious cognitive performance without, presumably, giving much consideration to that fuzzy boundary between the two. Plotting those pings might tell us something about the limitations of those systems.
Right. So maybe the allure of people with DID solving cognitive tasks in parallel is more of a stupid gimmick that sounds cool because of all the stock we put in consciousness. Maybe nature would see such redundancy more as an abhorrent waste of glucose.
I actually agree with you that parallelization of conscious processes is different from multitasking, which usually relies on the use of continuous partial attention or subconscious processing. I...
I actually agree with you that parallelization of conscious processes is different from multitasking, which usually relies on the use of continuous partial attention or subconscious processing. I brought up multitasking more to demonstrate the default limitations we are working with and that wiring/brain structure can impact the brain's ability to process different cognitive tasks. Our current understanding is that in normal manifestations of consciousness, it's basically impossible to do two separate complex mental tasks truly simultaneously. That being said, thinking appears to be a very light cognitive load, as only in states of flow is a person's attention so focused that they "forget themselves". This makes me think that simultaneous processing of thoughts in the form of multiple alters communicating would not be a cognitively intensive task, certainly one that doesn't take strong conscious effort.
The question is if parallel selves could delegate these tasks more effectively through how they are wired. This is a good question but it makes a couple suppositions. I am not confident that manifestations concurrent alters such as DID, OSDD, or otherwise are actually two separate consciousness awarenesses, but two separate "selves" that share an underlying awareness. The human self is not the same as human awareness or consciousness, we know this because of all the countless abnormal experiences of the self, even in cases where the self is felt to be absent, awareness remains. While an experience of simultaneous alters demonstrates that some parallelization is occurring, I cannot say with confidence that awareness is being truly parallelized, and therefore its quite possible that those with DID or otherwise are limited by the same physical limitations on awareness in the brain as those without.
FYI my comment was a mess and I just now gave it a rewrite for clarification. I'll read your reply now. Edit: I feel the abstract of that paper really reinforces the conclusion I came to in my...
FYI my comment was a mess and I just now gave it a rewrite for clarification.
I'll read your reply now.
Edit: I feel the abstract of that paper really reinforces the conclusion I came to in my previous comment.
For example. some of the more salient factors influencing whether or not flow occurred included: preparation, both physical and mental; confidence; focus; how the performance felt and progressed; and optimal motivation and arousal level.
Most of these either relate to priming the relevant motor circuitry, or deal with obvious interruptions to those processes where awareness is required to take over and the task is transferred from dedicated circuitry to the inefficient one (consciousness), subjectively this would feel like a break in flow.
That said I definitely agree with your point about alters, it seems much more likely that these are different surfaces of the same matrix without significant independent compartmentalization, which is kind of why I pivoted to other examples of the brain doing more with less such as in the case of some hemispherectomies.
But then I guess the takeaway becomes more general and less interesting: Yup, with enough rewiring and segregation you could probably easily fit two people inside one skull. Hell, given that 100+ IQ 5% mass example you could probably fit at least 20.
Thanks, I did spend some time looking at the research you provided and others and it does seem to appear that DID has gained significant traction. Although it's still a very small field and little...
Thanks, I did spend some time looking at the research you provided and others and it does seem to appear that DID has gained significant traction. Although it's still a very small field and little is understood. How this then relates to tulpas is less clear, although I wouldn't be surprised if they shared similar cognitive changes compared to a control population..
I don't want to extrapolate too much to how DID relates to tulpas, but from what I can tell, tulpas would not fit the DID diagnostic criteria in DSM-V, which requires distinct personality states...
I don't want to extrapolate too much to how DID relates to tulpas, but from what I can tell, tulpas would not fit the DID diagnostic criteria in DSM-V, which requires distinct personality states with amnesia between them in addition to requiring the disease be causing harm to the person experiencing it.
Dissociation to the level of DID has only been reported in the medical lit by people with early childhood trauma but people are likely able to consciously "hijack" these dissociation mechanisms for a weaker effect, in the same way that with practice people can learn to physically dissociate from pain.
Ellason, Joan W., Colin A. Ross, and Dayna L. Fuchs. "Lifetime axis I and II comorbidity and childhood trauma history in dissociative identity disorder." Psychiatry 59.3 (1996): 255-266.
I am not a medical professional, but I have a background in biochemistry and have worked in medical research environments. I find atypical constructions and experiences of selfhood and agency...
I am not a medical professional, but I have a background in biochemistry and have worked in medical research environments. I find atypical constructions and experiences of selfhood and agency utterly fascinating. I've studied related topics extensively, for example, psychological theory and medical studies (for DID), anthropological research (for religious possession, etc), and as many first-hand reports as possible.
Full disclosure, I first got interested in dissociative disorders when I was diagnosed with OSDD and wanted to understand the condition beyond my subjective experience of it. This led to my broader interest in and research into other phenomena that affect a persons experience of identity and agency.
I'm certainly not the one to do it, but I think one day that studying non-standard constructions of self-hood will help us understand the mechanisms behind how the brain generates a "self" at all.
This seems like a bad example. Only the first section has any citations. It appears this is a quick copy-and-paste of psychonautwiki's geometry page. And the way it was hastily done seems to omit...
Our data on EI is backed up by relevant scientific literature cited throughout our many articles (see geometry for an example)
This seems like a bad example. Only the first section has any citations. It appears this is a quick copy-and-paste of psychonautwiki's geometry page. And the way it was hastily done seems to omit citations 9 through 11, which exist at the bottom of the page but don't link to anything. The only addition to this info seems to be some trippy gifs.
I don't mean to shit on your project, but it seems the site doesn't really add anything to the existing body of knowledge over at psychonautwiki.
What makes you say this? Well, let's say you're right and there's no mental illness involved. How can you say a tulpa is autonomous? What does that even mean?
Tulpas differ from persistent entities in that they are never a component of mental illness
What makes you say this? Well, let's say you're right and there's no mental illness involved. How can you say a tulpa is autonomous? What does that even mean?
Suicide is something that you have to want to perform, and still it comes from a psycological disorder. I am not convinced that this is not caused by some kind of mental disorder
Tulpas are something that you have to want to create, it is extremely rare for one to suddenly pop up one day out of nowhere with no effort put into them. Persistent entities like those experienced by people with schizophrenia are always there by default.
Suicide is something that you have to want to perform, and still it comes from a psycological disorder.
I am not convinced that this is not caused by some kind of mental disorder
I'm super skeptical and curious about this, so thanks for engaging me seriously. Here's my impression from some of your other comments: It seems a tulpa is mainly created by wanting it to be true...
I'm super skeptical and curious about this, so thanks for engaging me seriously.
Here's my impression from some of your other comments: It seems a tulpa is mainly created by wanting it to be true so badly that one tricks oneself into believing it's real (intense meditation) or psychological damage (intense drug experience). Have you ruled out tulpas as a kind of delusion, and if so, why? If not, why not?
an autonomous tulpa is one that has full control over its own thoughts and actions
When a tulpa speaks, I assume it's speaking through you. So if a tulpa is persistent, are you frequently saying things that you have no control over? I also assume a tulpa's actions are done through you, so then are you always walking and doing things that you have no control over?
When two tulpas meet, how do you know what another person's tulpa is thinking, saying, and doing?
Can a tulpa think, say, and act when you're asleep?
Can she "disappear"? What does that involve? Are you able to call her up or are you unable to communicate with her until she "returns"? (And where all can she "go"?) Does she sleep or do other...
When she's present
Can she "disappear"? What does that involve? Are you able to call her up or are you unable to communicate with her until she "returns"? (And where all can she "go"?)
Does she sleep or do other "common" things (eat, bathe, dress, etc)?
It was mentioned in the thread that your tulpa helped you with transitioning - has she had sexual desires that you know of and if so how/were they acted on? (Feel free to not answer that if you don't want to.)
Are you able to "join" her? Or is she all alone if she goes away?
She can disappear, yes. I'd liken it to being asleep and dreaming. She has said in the past that either she is in wonderland (which is a lucid dream like state) or just in a blank void similar to a k-hole but without many of the hallucinatory aspects.
Are you able to "join" her? Or is she all alone if she goes away?
I was skeptical that there'd be anyone with tulpa experience on here, but I guess it makes sense that you'd know about it! Tulpas definitely seem related to psychedelic experiences and the power...
I was skeptical that there'd be anyone with tulpa experience on here, but I guess it makes sense that you'd know about it! Tulpas definitely seem related to psychedelic experiences and the power of the mind to invent fictional reality. Which in a way, is kind of cool... but still pretty weird.
Yo, not the person you're talking to but I guess I have relevant answers to that question so I'll contribute. My boyfriend knows of my tulpa. He's singular and accepting of it, sometimes he'll...
Yo, not the person you're talking to but I guess I have relevant answers to that question so I'll contribute.
My boyfriend knows of my tulpa. He's singular and accepting of it, sometimes he'll make playful jokes about it. Although my tulpa and him don't really ever interact directly. I'd be scared telling anyone in the future though for pretty obvious reasons.
It was years ago so I can't remember precisely but we were just friends online at the time. We both frequented a forum and knew each other pretty well. Then at some point a a tulpa discussion...
It was years ago so I can't remember precisely but we were just friends online at the time. We both frequented a forum and knew each other pretty well. Then at some point a a tulpa discussion cropped up and that's when I got into it. My BF was reading the thread and that's how he came to know about mine. It was later on that we started dating.
So I guess overall his reaction was "hmmm, interesting".
I've done my fair share of psychs, but that is an extremely excessive amount for such a short time. I'd be very surprised if you haven't undergone some serious mental degradation. I've known many...
I've done my fair share of psychs, but that is an extremely excessive amount for such a short time. I'd be very surprised if you haven't undergone some serious mental degradation.
I've known many people in your position, and every one has a noticable disconnect from reality. They're still fully functional and "normal", but there can be many underlying disfunctional developments you may never notice yourself. The human brain isn't finished developing until after 25yo. It's entirely possible to never notice the negative effects.
If I were you, I would find a therapist you trust, and explain everything.. you're usage/dosage history/frequency, perceptions of reality, and definitely your Tulpa. Until then, you absolutely cannot be certain that anxiety is your only mental illness.
I don't mean this in a judgemental way, as I too have binged on psychs in my college years. But despite the benefits of rare/single doses, heavy amounts can do serious, lifelong damage. The human brain was never equipped for that much stimulation. It is in your best interest to explain your experiences in full with a trusted psychologist.
All I need is the substances and timeframe you've already provided to come to this conclusion. No human brain is equipped for that without damage, known or unknown. Does a mentally ill person know...
All I need is the substances and timeframe you've already provided to come to this conclusion. No human brain is equipped for that without damage, known or unknown.
Does a mentally ill person know for certain they're ill, or are they convinced they're healthy? Only a trained third-party, a therapist, can sort that out.
Also, what valid proof is there that flooding your brain with massive amounts of dopamine/seratonin (+ other NTs) is safe for a developing brain? If you can prove that, you would win awards in psychological research.
I'll certainly provide plenty of evidence that usage along the rates you described (wayy above "standard dosage" btw) is detrimental, and also list the multitude of mental problems where the...
I'll certainly provide plenty of evidence that usage along the rates you described (wayy above "standard dosage" btw) is detrimental, and also list the multitude of mental problems where the individual still feels sane, healthy, and productive. I'll also show how many psychs are deeply involved with serotonin and dopamine in the brain. But all that is futile if you're dead-set on a certain line of thought, and are only here to aggressively disprove any evidence contradictory to your worldview. It'll also take some effort, considering the drugs are widely illegal and most studies involve rare/single/controlled dosages, very much not like your experience.
So if you're very open & receptive to evidence challenging your assumptions, I'll get to it. Otherwise, it's not worth either of our time/effort.
At the very least, know that going to therapy doesn't inherently mean you're sick. I'm not diagnosed with anything, yet I still regularly see a shrink. As a cognitive science grad, I know it's literally impossible to objectively assess your own mental health. Be well and open.
That's probably true. I mean, when I was in middle school my friends and I thought Wiccan magic was real and believed we could manipulate reality if we tried hard enough. We grew out of it.
That's probably true. I mean, when I was in middle school my friends and I thought Wiccan magic was real and believed we could manipulate reality if we tried hard enough. We grew out of it.
I haven't created one but I guess I'll make one after more reading. Yes and the reason is somewhat similar, I am an introvert and don't have many friends to talk to. Also, this looks interesting.
I haven't created one but I guess I'll make one after more reading. Yes and the reason is somewhat similar, I am an introvert and don't have many friends to talk to. Also, this looks interesting.
What the fuck
It took me a little while to realize that this thread was about some kind of multiple personality disorder and not the padded fat around someones genital region. Apparently that's a FUPA.
In response to the OP, no I definitely did not know about this before and I think I would have been happy staying ignorant.
https://tildes.net/~talk/4ow/anyone_who_has_a_tulpa#comment-1d2g
Nope, creating a Tulpa is not related to Multiple personality disorder.
There's likely not a causal link, but certainly there is a subset of people who use the concept as justification for a very real mental illness. Happens in countless echo-chamber communities, so much that there's a psychological term for it (I can't remember atm).
Violent video games don't cause violent behavior, but violent individuals are attracted to them b/c it reinforces their values.
Most stoners don't end up being crackheads, but the weed community typically provides positive feedback to people already predisposed to heavy drug use (compared to average culture), meaning addicts typically begin with weed and their addictive tendencies escalate from there. Again, ~95% of smokers don't end up like this, but the culture implicitly promotes it for weak-willed people nonetheless.
For most/all people who are awkward/lonely, it doesn't doom you to a life of virginity. But an enthusiastic community of misogynists may lead a depressed/isolated individual to believe his genes have eternally ruined his love life, women owe him sex, and it's their fault for ignoring him (AKA incels). Instead of seeking help/improvement (something incels discourage strongly), he accepts that he's incapable of being loved.
Check out an extreme example, "Targeted Individuals" on YouTube. An entire community of vulnerable people work together to reinforce schizophrenic paranoia, while actively discouraging psychiatric help. A vast government program created to subtly stalk innocent people. Surely there are sane conspiracy theorists who adhere to the idea, but communities like this that reject/ignore traditional support systems become a perfect storm to harbor mental illness.
Tulpas sound like they bring a lot of support/motivation for the people that create them, but every group I just mentioned also has a primary goal of supporting members within the community. Works for some, but the dangers of echo chambers can't be outright ignored.
I don't understand how they can be "autonomous" if she's dormant unless you call her up. Do some people have tulpas who are always on and can't be dormant?
Do you feel like she is a part of you? Or of your consciousness? Or does it feel like she is a totally separate being whose thoughts and feelings need to be considered? If you died, do you believe that she would die?
Btw, I'm not challenging you, just curious about your thought process.
I considered trying to create a tulpa once, but ended up not doing it. I had realized that when you're lonely, a cat is fine, too.
I've had a tulpa for a number of years now. I would say overall it's been a positive experience and force in my life. He was created at a very dark time in my life and I needed an anchor of sorts, and I'd say he did a decent job at it. He pulled me out of a number of panic attacks and depressive episodes. I understand that these things were likely possible without a tulpa. However, I've always been one who is bad at listening to myself, and tend to respond better to other people telling me what to do (like getting my brain off of a death spiral). My breakdowns almost always happened when I was alone, where the only person available to break myself out of it was myself. So always having someone, or at least what seems like someone else, to pull me out was valuable. I'd say tulpas are ultimately unnecessary though, and from my experiences talking with tulpas and their hosts I would advise against anyone creating tulpas as many things can go wrong. That said, overall I am very glad to be plural.
EDIT: I'd like to mention that I'm no longer in that dark part of my life anymore. I haven't had a depressive episodes, attacks, or any thoughts of self-harm in years. I'd say my life is pretty great and happy now. My tulpa is still around as him being here doesn't seem to interfere with my life much and we're pretty attached at this point.
As for what I think tulpas even are, I tend to have a pretty secular view on it and approach it with a high level of detached irony. My conception of it is that the brain has thoughts, and then these thoughts are assigned (or maybe a better word would be "attributed") to a personality of sorts. In most systems there is only one personality, so all thoughts are dumped onto them. But I think it's possible to train one's mind to sort of cordon off certain thoughts and not attribute it to the original personality. Essentially when I created my tulpa what I did was take the part of my thoughts that often ran in opposition to my other thoughts, the part of my psyche that often asked myself questions or played devil's advocate and tried to give it a consistent voice and personality. Eventually those thoughts became very different from my own.
So I wouldn't say tulpas and hosts are independently thinking from one another, but rather I'd say thought is something not specific to either and is then assigned to them accordingly. I view tulpas and hosts as being the same things in principle, they're just personalities we attribute thoughts to, a host is merely a personality that's been around longer.
Of course this is merely my conception of it, and there is zero evidence to support any of it, purely hypothetical.
I'll answer any questions anyone has to the best of my ability.
This triggered some memories. I remember back in the days of IRC, I shared a network - unbeknownst to me for the longest time - with a group of people with tulpas.
Even back then, when I was in my teens, these people would be accurately described as being "well intentioned, but annoying". It seemed a lot of them were also part of anime/yiff communities, too.
Definitely not my cup of tea
It is interesting (and honestly a little scary) that there is a community around these. I created a tulpa before I knew they had a name. I created it through hypnosis some time around 2007. It was part of the darkest period of my life; my biggest motivation to create it was loneliness.
The hypnosis script I used called for a tiny pocket-sized furry assistant (this was also the most embarrassing period of my life) to help you through your day. The idea was that they were supposed to help you remember things. She was never fully visible, but she was the most vivid mental image I have ever been able to 'see'.
Honestly, if nobody had mentioned these kinds of things, I would have probably completely forgotten her. I don't even remember what I named her. I had the benefit of knowing she was never real to begin with. The longer I thought about her the more I realized that every aspect I designed for her was a part of myself. She vanished gradually in about a week or two, and I never bothered to reinforce her existence. She was a lousy assistant - she never remembered anything I didn't. :P
Someone else mentioned their tulpa had helped them to transition genders. While my story isn't quite that dramatic, I think that having her around may have helped me to admit to myself that I was gay. I came out of the closet about a year later. It turns out that you become much less isolated when you stop living a lie.
I never told anyone about my Tulpa, but I did gain some notoriety for my anonymous persona after I released the recording I made for the self-hypnosis.
I find people with them very interesting, but I don't have one myself and I don't think I have the willpower or focus to do so.
In the typical fashion of the places where these kinds of people tend to gather, the overspecificity of the related vocabulary makes it a harder thing to accept, but I believe them and I'm sure some have made their own lives better as a result. Personally (as a complete layperson), I think we forget just how flimsy consciousness can be and what weird quirks we can find or force to exist within it. I'm not all that surprised by our local psychonaut being so active on this, it seems like a natural place of interest.
It's so harmless to others and the people involved are so apologetic and ready to be abused about it that I really feel bad for those involved. I'll put up with some tumblrisms and listen to 'em, god knows I don't have the ability to test it myself.
I have enough to do figuring out my own troubles, I don't need another person to hang out in my head. I like meditating, and do it frequently, but I would never want to use that to create a Tulpa. I'd inevitable kill it, and It'd probably destabilize the mind palace i spent years building beyond repair.
There was a podcast from Reply All about Tulpas a few years back that talked pretty extensively to a woman who had a Tulpa, and discussed (in large part) how it ruined her marriage, to quote from a written reply given by her (then) ex-husband:
I think you're overselling DID a bit. There's a lot of skepticism around the cause and the actual mechanisms involved. It's not even entirely clear just how "real" each identity is in those diagnosed with DID. But considering there's some thought that DID is induced by psychotherapy it would be a reasonable hypothesis to suggest tulpas and DID have similar pathologies. Although there's not really a lot of evidence for either phenomenon to make any solid conclusions about anything.
Studies such as this suggest that DID is far beyond just a psycho-social occurrence and works at the neurological level.
This study documents a case where blindness experienced by some altars of an individual and not others. This was confirmed by EEG imaging which showed this blindness was occurring due to selective activation of neural pathways related to vision. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17611729 /
Here's a study showing other neurological changes between altars that couldn't be explained by a psychosocial theory. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925492707000030
Further research into the neurological causes of DID - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053810001904933?via%3Dihub
Lastly, from a psychological perspective, here is a study that summarized the current research literature:
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0004867414527523
Strictly on the subject of DID, you're right there used to be uncertainty, but the medical and scientific research of the last 15-20 years is pretty definitive that it is a real, observable condition.
Have there been cases of multiple alters running in parallel, or do they always occur in sequence? For example would it be possible for someone with DID to perform two math calculations simultaneously?
Also, are you the one a few weeks ago who made the case that the book Blindsight's take on DID was rather poor and not at all grounded in our current understanding?
Thanks for the sources, I can't wait do so some reading on this.
Good question, the literature and subjective reports of people with DID report that yes, alters can occur simultaneously. However, part of the diagnostic criteria for DID is the presence of distinct personality states, defined as not simultaneously occurring. It's not uncommon for people with DID to have no direct experience of their alters. It seems to be dependent on the person and the diagnosis, as people with OSDD report concurrent alters at a much higher rate than people with DID, who are generally more separate from their alters.
DID Diagnostic criteria: http://traumadissociation.com/dissociativeidentitydisorder#dsm5
OSDD Diagnostic criteria: http://traumadissociation.com/osdd
People who say they have experienced multiple parallel alters describe it subjectively as not just hearing another voice etc, but describe feeling a mental presence which talks, thinks and so forth. This differentiates from schizophrenia, where voices are heard but are not felt to have an agent behind them. However, there have been no demonstrations of simultaneous cognitive tasks being executed by different alters. First-hand accounts suggest that processing power is felt as shared between different alters and the stronger presence of one comes at the expense of the weaker presence of another.
I have done years of research on the topic and believe what I have included above is accurate to the scientific consensus, but our neuroimaging tech or understanding of the brain isn't far enough to prove simultaneous alters definitively.
I was not the one who posted previously about DID but if you have a link, I would be curious to read.
I'd definitely like to see some research done on the parallelization of cognitive tasks through DID or other similar conditions. If at all possible I suspect the bottleneck of resource sharing would probably be significant, but theoretically more of a wiring problem than anything else due to the fact that there wouldn't really be significant plasticity pressure to optimize for parallelization.
This is obviously conjecture but I'm basing it on what I've read about how impressively people are often able to recover from hemispherectomies, where at least in one case I'm thinking of an individual (after a few years) still retained or recovered with an above average intelligence, social skills, propensity for language, etc. Plasticity seems to win over raw mass under the right circumstances.
And then there's individuals who are literally missing 95% of their brain mass and nevertheless can still have an IQ of 126. I mean just look at those pictures.
Though on the subject of multiple parallel consciousnesses it would almost be tempting to get a corpus collosectomy and see how each hemisphere adapts once segregated and (arguably) independently conscious.
You raise some interesting questions., I would love to see research done on the topic as well. I suspect you're correct that there is not sufficient pressure to optimize for parallelization of certain cognitive tasks.
All of the studies on human multi-tasking have of course only been done on people without DID, but the general consensus is there is a bottleneck or bottlenecks, based on the total amount of information being processed, as well as which sort of mental tasks are being performed. There is evidence that some are better at multitasking than others, and these people are characterized by more efficient recruitment of anterior cingulate and posterior frontopolar prefrontal cortices.
Of course, we're so far from being able to answer the question on how DID would affect parallelization and why.
I'm not sure if multitasking really counts. I'd define that more as a propensity to switch back and forth between tasks with relatively minimal loss of fidelity, in other words not needing to ramp back up to speed and iron out the wrinkles in short term memory as much during the switch. One zigzagged thread versus two. A different beast than independent conscious processes solving different tasks simultaneously.
Conscious processes...
Now that I think of it a great degree of relatively complex cognitive workload can be delegated to unconscious processes. One can probably think through a problem with minimal performance impact while, say, walking or driving while never really thinking about the latter two, with those subconscious processes only pinging the conscious one when some relatively complex decision or need for perception takes place...
Walk and chew gum. Parallelization occurs all the time, just past the periphery of consciousness.
Consciousness's role might be a bit more banal than we'd hope, then. We've all done that thing we're were cleaning up after a meal without paying attention and erroneously put the milk in the freezer after which something feels "off", and our focus snaps back in; we become aware of the problem. We then open the freezer again and put the milk in the fridge where it belongs. And yet as a child if we're doing the same task for the first time we're thinking it through every step of the way.
Maybe that's all it's really for. A tool, a feedback loop, for distilling out and extrapolating exterior and novel complexities and correlated actions, and translating them into native neurochemistry, into intuition. An adaptation to a world moving faster than natural selection would be able to rewire instinct.
Maybe consciousness is just a glorified compiler with awareness as a side effect.
And so I think those moments during a task done inattentively where the unconscious processes ping the conscious one to address some complication might be really interesting to study. We so often place the emphasis on conscious cognitive performance without, presumably, giving much consideration to that fuzzy boundary between the two. Plotting those pings might tell us something about the limitations of those systems.
Right. So maybe the allure of people with DID solving cognitive tasks in parallel is more of a stupid gimmick that sounds cool because of all the stock we put in consciousness. Maybe nature would see such redundancy more as an abhorrent waste of glucose.
Food for thought. Zing.
I actually agree with you that parallelization of conscious processes is different from multitasking, which usually relies on the use of continuous partial attention or subconscious processing. I brought up multitasking more to demonstrate the default limitations we are working with and that wiring/brain structure can impact the brain's ability to process different cognitive tasks. Our current understanding is that in normal manifestations of consciousness, it's basically impossible to do two separate complex mental tasks truly simultaneously. That being said, thinking appears to be a very light cognitive load, as only in states of flow is a person's attention so focused that they "forget themselves". This makes me think that simultaneous processing of thoughts in the form of multiple alters communicating would not be a cognitively intensive task, certainly one that doesn't take strong conscious effort.
The question is if parallel selves could delegate these tasks more effectively through how they are wired. This is a good question but it makes a couple suppositions. I am not confident that manifestations concurrent alters such as DID, OSDD, or otherwise are actually two separate consciousness awarenesses, but two separate "selves" that share an underlying awareness. The human self is not the same as human awareness or consciousness, we know this because of all the countless abnormal experiences of the self, even in cases where the self is felt to be absent, awareness remains. While an experience of simultaneous alters demonstrates that some parallelization is occurring, I cannot say with confidence that awareness is being truly parallelized, and therefore its quite possible that those with DID or otherwise are limited by the same physical limitations on awareness in the brain as those without.
FYI my comment was a mess and I just now gave it a rewrite for clarification.
I'll read your reply now.
Edit: I feel the abstract of that paper really reinforces the conclusion I came to in my previous comment.
Most of these either relate to priming the relevant motor circuitry, or deal with obvious interruptions to those processes where awareness is required to take over and the task is transferred from dedicated circuitry to the inefficient one (consciousness), subjectively this would feel like a break in flow.
That said I definitely agree with your point about alters, it seems much more likely that these are different surfaces of the same matrix without significant independent compartmentalization, which is kind of why I pivoted to other examples of the brain doing more with less such as in the case of some hemispherectomies.
But then I guess the takeaway becomes more general and less interesting: Yup, with enough rewiring and segregation you could probably easily fit two people inside one skull. Hell, given that 100+ IQ 5% mass example you could probably fit at least 20.
Thanks, I did spend some time looking at the research you provided and others and it does seem to appear that DID has gained significant traction. Although it's still a very small field and little is understood. How this then relates to tulpas is less clear, although I wouldn't be surprised if they shared similar cognitive changes compared to a control population..
I don't want to extrapolate too much to how DID relates to tulpas, but from what I can tell, tulpas would not fit the DID diagnostic criteria in DSM-V, which requires distinct personality states with amnesia between them in addition to requiring the disease be causing harm to the person experiencing it.
Dissociation to the level of DID has only been reported in the medical lit by people with early childhood trauma but people are likely able to consciously "hijack" these dissociation mechanisms for a weaker effect, in the same way that with practice people can learn to physically dissociate from pain.
Ellason, Joan W., Colin A. Ross, and Dayna L. Fuchs. "Lifetime axis I and II comorbidity and childhood trauma history in dissociative identity disorder." Psychiatry 59.3 (1996): 255-266.
Out of curiosity what's your background?
I am not a medical professional, but I have a background in biochemistry and have worked in medical research environments. I find atypical constructions and experiences of selfhood and agency utterly fascinating. I've studied related topics extensively, for example, psychological theory and medical studies (for DID), anthropological research (for religious possession, etc), and as many first-hand reports as possible.
Full disclosure, I first got interested in dissociative disorders when I was diagnosed with OSDD and wanted to understand the condition beyond my subjective experience of it. This led to my broader interest in and research into other phenomena that affect a persons experience of identity and agency.
I'm certainly not the one to do it, but I think one day that studying non-standard constructions of self-hood will help us understand the mechanisms behind how the brain generates a "self" at all.
Thanks for indulging me. I'm always down to talk with someone interested in self-hood and research and your pretty informed.
What kind of medications are you currently prescribed?
This seems like a bad example. Only the first section has any citations. It appears this is a quick copy-and-paste of psychonautwiki's geometry page. And the way it was hastily done seems to omit citations 9 through 11, which exist at the bottom of the page but don't link to anything. The only addition to this info seems to be some trippy gifs.
I don't mean to shit on your project, but it seems the site doesn't really add anything to the existing body of knowledge over at psychonautwiki.
What makes you say this? Well, let's say you're right and there's no mental illness involved. How can you say a tulpa is autonomous? What does that even mean?
Suicide is something that you have to want to perform, and still it comes from a psycological disorder.
I am not convinced that this is not caused by some kind of mental disorder
I'm super skeptical and curious about this, so thanks for engaging me seriously.
Here's my impression from some of your other comments: It seems a tulpa is mainly created by wanting it to be true so badly that one tricks oneself into believing it's real (intense meditation) or psychological damage (intense drug experience). Have you ruled out tulpas as a kind of delusion, and if so, why? If not, why not?
When a tulpa speaks, I assume it's speaking through you. So if a tulpa is persistent, are you frequently saying things that you have no control over? I also assume a tulpa's actions are done through you, so then are you always walking and doing things that you have no control over?
When two tulpas meet, how do you know what another person's tulpa is thinking, saying, and doing?
Can a tulpa think, say, and act when you're asleep?
Thanks, I appreciate the answers.
Can she "disappear"? What does that involve? Are you able to call her up or are you unable to communicate with her until she "returns"? (And where all can she "go"?)
Does she sleep or do other "common" things (eat, bathe, dress, etc)?
It was mentioned in the thread that your tulpa helped you with transitioning - has she had sexual desires that you know of and if so how/were they acted on? (Feel free to not answer that if you don't want to.)
Are you able to "join" her? Or is she all alone if she goes away?
I was skeptical that there'd be anyone with tulpa experience on here, but I guess it makes sense that you'd know about it! Tulpas definitely seem related to psychedelic experiences and the power of the mind to invent fictional reality. Which in a way, is kind of cool... but still pretty weird.
Yo, not the person you're talking to but I guess I have relevant answers to that question so I'll contribute.
My boyfriend knows of my tulpa. He's singular and accepting of it, sometimes he'll make playful jokes about it. Although my tulpa and him don't really ever interact directly. I'd be scared telling anyone in the future though for pretty obvious reasons.
It was years ago so I can't remember precisely but we were just friends online at the time. We both frequented a forum and knew each other pretty well. Then at some point a a tulpa discussion cropped up and that's when I got into it. My BF was reading the thread and that's how he came to know about mine. It was later on that we started dating.
So I guess overall his reaction was "hmmm, interesting".
I've done my fair share of psychs, but that is an extremely excessive amount for such a short time. I'd be very surprised if you haven't undergone some serious mental degradation.
I've known many people in your position, and every one has a noticable disconnect from reality. They're still fully functional and "normal", but there can be many underlying disfunctional developments you may never notice yourself. The human brain isn't finished developing until after 25yo. It's entirely possible to never notice the negative effects.
If I were you, I would find a therapist you trust, and explain everything.. you're usage/dosage history/frequency, perceptions of reality, and definitely your Tulpa. Until then, you absolutely cannot be certain that anxiety is your only mental illness.
I don't mean this in a judgemental way, as I too have binged on psychs in my college years. But despite the benefits of rare/single doses, heavy amounts can do serious, lifelong damage. The human brain was never equipped for that much stimulation. It is in your best interest to explain your experiences in full with a trusted psychologist.
All I need is the substances and timeframe you've already provided to come to this conclusion. No human brain is equipped for that without damage, known or unknown.
Does a mentally ill person know for certain they're ill, or are they convinced they're healthy? Only a trained third-party, a therapist, can sort that out.
Also, what valid proof is there that flooding your brain with massive amounts of dopamine/seratonin (+ other NTs) is safe for a developing brain? If you can prove that, you would win awards in psychological research.
I'll certainly provide plenty of evidence that usage along the rates you described (wayy above "standard dosage" btw) is detrimental, and also list the multitude of mental problems where the individual still feels sane, healthy, and productive. I'll also show how many psychs are deeply involved with serotonin and dopamine in the brain. But all that is futile if you're dead-set on a certain line of thought, and are only here to aggressively disprove any evidence contradictory to your worldview. It'll also take some effort, considering the drugs are widely illegal and most studies involve rare/single/controlled dosages, very much not like your experience.
So if you're very open & receptive to evidence challenging your assumptions, I'll get to it. Otherwise, it's not worth either of our time/effort.
At the very least, know that going to therapy doesn't inherently mean you're sick. I'm not diagnosed with anything, yet I still regularly see a shrink. As a cognitive science grad, I know it's literally impossible to objectively assess your own mental health. Be well and open.
That's probably true. I mean, when I was in middle school my friends and I thought Wiccan magic was real and believed we could manipulate reality if we tried hard enough. We grew out of it.
I haven't created one but I guess I'll make one after more reading. Yes and the reason is somewhat similar, I am an introvert and don't have many friends to talk to. Also, this looks interesting.