Apple can and should stop this right now. Simply push a statement to all users that, should this law take effect, Apple devices and services will not be available to any users in the UK, nor will...
Apple can and should stop this right now.
Simply push a statement to all users that, should this law take effect, Apple devices and services will not be available to any users in the UK, nor will users of their products be able to communicate with those who are.
Apples concern there is giving away market share to android and other competitors who have no qualms with it. It’s potentially a world wide loss if your phones can’t do business with certain countries
Apples concern there is giving away market share to android and other competitors who have no qualms with it. It’s potentially a world wide loss if your phones can’t do business with certain countries
Not enough people care about this to the point they would only buy an Apple phone (let alone be able to afford them) for Apple to give up the UK market.
Not enough people care about this to the point they would only buy an Apple phone (let alone be able to afford them) for Apple to give up the UK market.
I would as well. The vast majority wouldn't, and businesses absolutely wouldn't. "We can't setup the conference call on a million dollar deal because our phones don't work there" is going to be...
I would as well. The vast majority wouldn't, and businesses absolutely wouldn't. "We can't setup the conference call on a million dollar deal because our phones don't work there" is going to be the fastest IT "change it now" order we'll see this decade.
I wish it were different, and i'm hoping apple does it anyways to try and force the issue to be ugly, but any company that doesn't switch and does business in affected areas is going to be literally be opting out of the entire market.
They wouldn't lose market share because most of the politicians involved would rather keep their iPhones than pass a law they don't understand, and even is they didn't care, the wrath of iPhone...
They wouldn't lose market share because most of the politicians involved would rather keep their iPhones than pass a law they don't understand, and even is they didn't care, the wrath of iPhone users would scare them into puking the law
Yep. There's an obvious hesitancy for firms to get too 'political' but I can't really see much alternative now. The UK in particular with it's almost universally technologically illiterate...
Yep.
There's an obvious hesitancy for firms to get too 'political' but I can't really see much alternative now. The UK in particular with it's almost universally technologically illiterate political parties and their various silly policies that all amount to the same thing are not going to listen until someone big stands up and says no.
There is an assumption this will happen eventually, there have been some more quiet words from big tech of course but I think we need something that brings the issue to headlines and spells out very clearly that politicians have absolutely no clue what they're doing.
It's not as risky as Apple (or anyone else) may think.
They can and should, but it would potentially cost them money with no real benefit, so much like how politicians can and should raise the minimum wage, they won't do it unless the people force...
They can and should, but it would potentially cost them money with no real benefit, so much like how politicians can and should raise the minimum wage, they won't do it unless the people force them to.
One of Apple's selling points is privacy, and as popular as they are people would revolt if politicians passed a last that would result in losing their iPhones.
One of Apple's selling points is privacy, and as popular as they are people would revolt if politicians passed a last that would result in losing their iPhones.
I'm in a Labour area and spoke to my MP directly about how this will affect people and make them more unsafe. Even appealed to her black background and the kids who get absolutely railroaded into...
I'm in a Labour area and spoke to my MP directly about how this will affect people and make them more unsafe. Even appealed to her black background and the kids who get absolutely railroaded into dangerous situations when they out themselves... Etc.
Her response, "Perhaps they should consider doing no wrong?"
I was dumbfounded and just called her a "delusional peeping Tom" and she just moved on to talking about black equality with someone else.
They don't give a fuck. The only thing that will change this country is violence, and the people are so exhausted that it'll probably come to that at some point.
In this specific issue, aren't the Australians already ahead of us on this?
Aussie
In this specific issue, aren't the Australians already ahead of us on this?
Under Australia's legislation, police can force companies to create a technical function that would give them access to encrypted messages without the user's knowledge. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-46463029
The electorate gave power to the Tories, repeatedly. The electorate voted to keep FPTP. The electorate voted for Brexit. Now in reality those numbers are all roughly a third of the population:...
The electorate gave power to the Tories, repeatedly. The electorate voted to keep FPTP. The electorate voted for Brexit.
Now in reality those numbers are all roughly a third of the population: another third opposes, and the final third abstains. We’re very much divided, I know. But ultimately, enough of the population (and perhaps more importantly, enough of the population in a consistent and reliable bloc) want the status quo - or at least have been co-opted into willingly voting for something they don’t want.
So yeah, I agree with you that revolution is not the answer, but I don’t see how candidacy would particularly likely to help either?
I don’t know UK politics all that well, but, it’s often hard to predict the future, meaning that I’d generally assume there is some chance of a change under the right conditions.
I don’t know UK politics all that well, but, it’s often hard to predict the future, meaning that I’d generally assume there is some chance of a change under the right conditions.
I literally live in an area that would vote Labour if they ran on a platform of child consumption. First past the post is a goddamn nightmare in the UK. Let alone a massively shoulder shrugging...
I literally live in an area that would vote Labour if they ran on a platform of child consumption.
First past the post is a goddamn nightmare in the UK. Let alone a massively shoulder shrugging dense electorate.
In the US we have states where one party is much more popular, like California. But there is still sometimes competition between candidates in the same party. Is that not the case for the UK?
In the US we have states where one party is much more popular, like California. But there is still sometimes competition between candidates in the same party. Is that not the case for the UK?
Kind of. You get some areas that are just hardcore to a particular party such as Labour or Conservative, it's just the way demographics works. But there are others that switch between one of the...
Kind of.
You get some areas that are just hardcore to a particular party such as Labour or Conservative, it's just the way demographics works. But there are others that switch between one of the big two and another party like the Greens of Liberal Democrats and back and forth.
The later doesn't happen anywhere near as much as we'd like it to.
We had a big referrendum that was just... abused about a decade ago to get our voting system changed and it went badly. Mostly because no-one explained it, and the "anti-" brigade used really emotive ads to stop it from happening.
The irony is to Labour? If they pushed serious voting reform... they'd win, big time. The Conservatives would lose because of their dwindling base and manipulative behaviours. But will they do it? No. Because the Tories would eat them alive and call for their heads because it 'feels' like manipulation against them. Rather than just the BS that happens regularly.
Sometimes, results in a by-election usually that starts the process off for that voting area. But you so rarely have internal politicking like that. You end up seeing important MPs being...
Sometimes, results in a by-election usually that starts the process off for that voting area.
But you so rarely have internal politicking like that. You end up seeing important MPs being parachuted in to different areas to win and get specific positions.
Don't seem to exist in the UK. This issue is where the major parties people can vote for all align. That isn't to say there's not individuals in those parties who know better (although I doubt...
Don't seem to exist in the UK. This issue is where the major parties people can vote for all align.
That isn't to say there's not individuals in those parties who know better (although I doubt many) but when it comes to party politics they all know when to keep their mouths shut.
The US government tried to make strong encryption unavailable in the 1990's and all it did was encourage development to move offshore, out of the reach of US laws. The same thing will happen here...
The US government tried to make strong encryption unavailable in the 1990's and all it did was encourage development to move offshore, out of the reach of US laws. The same thing will happen here - the UK's laws will be ignored or circumvented.
It would, of course, be a good time to learn how Tor works, which email and other service providers are privacy-friendly, and which VPN services with non-UK exit locations might work well for you.
Pretty much this. International businesses that still operate in the UK will move out. Or at least some more will. This will also do little to affect criminals. I know/knew a few people who used...
Pretty much this.
International businesses that still operate in the UK will move out. Or at least some more will.
This will also do little to affect criminals. I know/knew a few people who used to be involved in the drug trade maybe 10 years ago (not in the UK)... from what i can piece together, at the time mid level people and up were using a pirate cell network and some sort of PGP encrypted email system that functioned like a text message app. Supposedly the guy running that particular network got busted, but a lot of stuff in those "drug dealer phones" is more common today (other than the pirate cell network).
I have Proton Mail. I use Mullvad VPN. My Apple iCloud has Advance Data Protection turned on. If I lived in the UK; would I be fairly well masked from this laws repercussions? Anything else a UK...
I have Proton Mail. I use Mullvad VPN. My Apple iCloud has Advance Data Protection turned on.
If I lived in the UK; would I be fairly well masked from this laws repercussions?
Anything else a UK citizen or global citizen can do to mitigate the intrusions these type of laws and nation state actions can impose on us?
Well this is disturbing. Really hope this somehow doesn't pass, or that if it does, the tech world responds in a way that makes it clear how infeasible this is.
Well this is disturbing. Really hope this somehow doesn't pass, or that if it does, the tech world responds in a way that makes it clear how infeasible this is.
I mean, what will essentially happen if this passes is the British will have to set up their own China-style Great Firewall to enforce it, right? I feel like the most probable outcome of this...
I mean, what will essentially happen if this passes is the British will have to set up their own China-style Great Firewall to enforce it, right? I feel like the most probable outcome of this passing would be the British choosing not to enforce it, rather than blocking half the internet from being accessible within the UK
Half? More like 98%, I don’t know any web service that isn’t https, not to mention all messaging services are E2E. What, will apple and signal etc, really turn off encryption globally because of...
Half? More like 98%, I don’t know any web service that isn’t https, not to mention all messaging services are E2E. What, will apple and signal etc, really turn off encryption globally because of one small island? Nah.
Pedantically speaking, e2e and server-client encryption are close enough to synonymous when discussing https - but you're right that the EFF is mostly discussing messenger apps here, since I think...
Pedantically speaking, e2e and server-client encryption are close enough to synonymous when discussing https - but you're right that the EFF is mostly discussing messenger apps here, since I think the assumption is that commercial servers aren't serving the content the gov is concerned about regardless.
I did some more reading and the best I can come up with from articles is that they're not looking to get rid of encryption but the government needs to have some way to access the data. Regardless...
I did some more reading and the best I can come up with from articles is that they're not looking to get rid of encryption but the government needs to have some way to access the data.
Regardless of encryption, regular client-server services + non E2E encrypted client-server-client services can already have their data viewed with a warrant. That's the key difference I think.
The scope will depend on what counts as a messaging service. Google Meet has end-to-end encryption for video calls, for example. (Or so they claim.) Similarly for Facetime. The encrypted packets...
The scope will depend on what counts as a messaging service. Google Meet has end-to-end encryption for video calls, for example. (Or so they claim.) Similarly for Facetime. The encrypted packets might not be routed through a Google or Apple server at all, depending on the details. Are those messaging apps?
Does the proposed bill state that they're specifically going after messaging apps? If it does then the bill (or maybe regulations based on it) will define what a "messaging app" is. Edit: not...
Does the proposed bill state that they're specifically going after messaging apps? If it does then the bill (or maybe regulations based on it) will define what a "messaging app" is.
Edit: not routing through apple or google... is that part of that web RTC thing?
Pretty hard to fine a company that doesn't collect revenue in your country, though. So all the terrorists and child porn peddlers this is ostensibly targeting just side load Signal and go on their...
Pretty hard to fine a company that doesn't collect revenue in your country, though. So all the terrorists and child porn peddlers this is ostensibly targeting just side load Signal and go on their merry way while Joe User won't find it in the play store and gets scanned using backdoored WhatsApp.
This whole charade would be insulting if it wouldn't actually work with British voters.
Apple can and should stop this right now.
Simply push a statement to all users that, should this law take effect, Apple devices and services will not be available to any users in the UK, nor will users of their products be able to communicate with those who are.
Apples concern there is giving away market share to android and other competitors who have no qualms with it. It’s potentially a world wide loss if your phones can’t do business with certain countries
Disagree, I would switch to Apple over this.
Not enough people care about this to the point they would only buy an Apple phone (let alone be able to afford them) for Apple to give up the UK market.
I would as well. The vast majority wouldn't, and businesses absolutely wouldn't. "We can't setup the conference call on a million dollar deal because our phones don't work there" is going to be the fastest IT "change it now" order we'll see this decade.
I wish it were different, and i'm hoping apple does it anyways to try and force the issue to be ugly, but any company that doesn't switch and does business in affected areas is going to be literally be opting out of the entire market.
I was considering the switch to Apple, then they went and removed the SIM card trays from their phones here :/
They wouldn't lose market share because most of the politicians involved would rather keep their iPhones than pass a law they don't understand, and even is they didn't care, the wrath of iPhone users would scare them into puking the law
Yep.
There's an obvious hesitancy for firms to get too 'political' but I can't really see much alternative now. The UK in particular with it's almost universally technologically illiterate political parties and their various silly policies that all amount to the same thing are not going to listen until someone big stands up and says no.
There is an assumption this will happen eventually, there have been some more quiet words from big tech of course but I think we need something that brings the issue to headlines and spells out very clearly that politicians have absolutely no clue what they're doing.
It's not as risky as Apple (or anyone else) may think.
They can and should, but it would potentially cost them money with no real benefit, so much like how politicians can and should raise the minimum wage, they won't do it unless the people force them to.
One of Apple's selling points is privacy, and as popular as they are people would revolt if politicians passed a last that would result in losing their iPhones.
What about conventional politics, like supporting candidates who seem to have a clue?
I'm in a Labour area and spoke to my MP directly about how this will affect people and make them more unsafe. Even appealed to her black background and the kids who get absolutely railroaded into dangerous situations when they out themselves... Etc.
Her response, "Perhaps they should consider doing no wrong?"
I was dumbfounded and just called her a "delusional peeping Tom" and she just moved on to talking about black equality with someone else.
They don't give a fuck. The only thing that will change this country is violence, and the people are so exhausted that it'll probably come to that at some point.
Yeah, my wife is an Aussie and I want out in a big way now...
In this specific issue, aren't the Australians already ahead of us on this?
Wasn't referring directly to this matter. The UK has an awful lot of problems at the moment.
I left in 2004. I recently went back for a couple of days...no regrets about moving away!
Also, £7.40 for a pint? GTFO
Or someone new running against them?
The electorate gave power to the Tories, repeatedly. The electorate voted to keep FPTP. The electorate voted for Brexit.
Now in reality those numbers are all roughly a third of the population: another third opposes, and the final third abstains. We’re very much divided, I know. But ultimately, enough of the population (and perhaps more importantly, enough of the population in a consistent and reliable bloc) want the status quo - or at least have been co-opted into willingly voting for something they don’t want.
So yeah, I agree with you that revolution is not the answer, but I don’t see how candidacy would particularly likely to help either?
I don’t know UK politics all that well, but, it’s often hard to predict the future, meaning that I’d generally assume there is some chance of a change under the right conditions.
I literally live in an area that would vote Labour if they ran on a platform of child consumption.
First past the post is a goddamn nightmare in the UK. Let alone a massively shoulder shrugging dense electorate.
In the US we have states where one party is much more popular, like California. But there is still sometimes competition between candidates in the same party. Is that not the case for the UK?
Kind of.
You get some areas that are just hardcore to a particular party such as Labour or Conservative, it's just the way demographics works. But there are others that switch between one of the big two and another party like the Greens of Liberal Democrats and back and forth.
The later doesn't happen anywhere near as much as we'd like it to.
We had a big referrendum that was just... abused about a decade ago to get our voting system changed and it went badly. Mostly because no-one explained it, and the "anti-" brigade used really emotive ads to stop it from happening.
The irony is to Labour? If they pushed serious voting reform... they'd win, big time. The Conservatives would lose because of their dwindling base and manipulative behaviours. But will they do it? No. Because the Tories would eat them alive and call for their heads because it 'feels' like manipulation against them. Rather than just the BS that happens regularly.
What about competition within a party? Is that a thing?
Sometimes, results in a by-election usually that starts the process off for that voting area.
But you so rarely have internal politicking like that. You end up seeing important MPs being parachuted in to different areas to win and get specific positions.
Our political system sucks.
Don't seem to exist in the UK. This issue is where the major parties people can vote for all align.
That isn't to say there's not individuals in those parties who know better (although I doubt many) but when it comes to party politics they all know when to keep their mouths shut.
The US government tried to make strong encryption unavailable in the 1990's and all it did was encourage development to move offshore, out of the reach of US laws. The same thing will happen here - the UK's laws will be ignored or circumvented.
It would, of course, be a good time to learn how Tor works, which email and other service providers are privacy-friendly, and which VPN services with non-UK exit locations might work well for you.
Pretty much this.
International businesses that still operate in the UK will move out. Or at least some more will.
This will also do little to affect criminals. I know/knew a few people who used to be involved in the drug trade maybe 10 years ago (not in the UK)... from what i can piece together, at the time mid level people and up were using a pirate cell network and some sort of PGP encrypted email system that functioned like a text message app. Supposedly the guy running that particular network got busted, but a lot of stuff in those "drug dealer phones" is more common today (other than the pirate cell network).
I have Proton Mail. I use Mullvad VPN. My Apple iCloud has Advance Data Protection turned on.
If I lived in the UK; would I be fairly well masked from this laws repercussions?
Anything else a UK citizen or global citizen can do to mitigate the intrusions these type of laws and nation state actions can impose on us?
For a Government that has insisted on using WhatsApp so much to obscure and hide communication, this is an abomination.
It's probably the real reason for wanting it now, they're desperate to see what people are saying about them.
Well this is disturbing. Really hope this somehow doesn't pass, or that if it does, the tech world responds in a way that makes it clear how infeasible this is.
I mean, what will essentially happen if this passes is the British will have to set up their own China-style Great Firewall to enforce it, right? I feel like the most probable outcome of this passing would be the British choosing not to enforce it, rather than blocking half the internet from being accessible within the UK
Half? More like 98%, I don’t know any web service that isn’t https, not to mention all messaging services are E2E. What, will apple and signal etc, really turn off encryption globally because of one small island? Nah.
All Ios and Android apps have to use encryption for a start. Besides that, I think 99% or more of the websites people use, use HTTPS.
I thought this was mainly addressing e2e encryption not server-client encryption.
Pedantically speaking, e2e and server-client encryption are close enough to synonymous when discussing https - but you're right that the EFF is mostly discussing messenger apps here, since I think the assumption is that commercial servers aren't serving the content the gov is concerned about regardless.
I did some more reading and the best I can come up with from articles is that they're not looking to get rid of encryption but the government needs to have some way to access the data.
Regardless of encryption, regular client-server services + non E2E encrypted client-server-client services can already have their data viewed with a warrant. That's the key difference I think.
The scope will depend on what counts as a messaging service. Google Meet has end-to-end encryption for video calls, for example. (Or so they claim.) Similarly for Facetime. The encrypted packets might not be routed through a Google or Apple server at all, depending on the details. Are those messaging apps?
Does the proposed bill state that they're specifically going after messaging apps? If it does then the bill (or maybe regulations based on it) will define what a "messaging app" is.
Edit: not routing through apple or google... is that part of that web RTC thing?
I don't know what's in the proposed legislation; the article didn't go into detail.
Yes, Web RTC does that. I don't know how much they use it, though.
Not really. If they find a company with encryption operating in the UK they’ll just fine them a bunch.
Pretty hard to fine a company that doesn't collect revenue in your country, though. So all the terrorists and child porn peddlers this is ostensibly targeting just side load Signal and go on their merry way while Joe User won't find it in the play store and gets scanned using backdoored WhatsApp.
This whole charade would be insulting if it wouldn't actually work with British voters.