19 votes

How a break-up of Google could transform tech

15 comments

  1. [10]
    Interesting
    Link
    Honestly, I think the biggest danger Google poses to the internet is Chromium's near monopoly, and how that gives them the opportunity to basically decide how the web functions themselves (see:...

    Honestly, I think the biggest danger Google poses to the internet is Chromium's near monopoly, and how that gives them the opportunity to basically decide how the web functions themselves (see: the kurfufle a while back about browser attestation).

    So I hope whatever remedy the court chooses, it involves Google having less control over the Chromium project. Actually, if the resolution is to ban search deals, this could make that worse, since that money presently supports Firefox, their only remaining real competition.

    35 votes
    1. [8]
      Nijuu
      Link Parent
      There are a small group of smaller projects still floating around though?. Real shame the original Opera now aka Vivaldi went via the Chromium and not their original Gecko (??) engine route?

      There are a small group of smaller projects still floating around though?. Real shame the original Opera now aka Vivaldi went via the Chromium and not their original Gecko (??) engine route?

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        Akir
        Link Parent
        Gecko is Mozilla. Opera's engine was Presto. Opera got bought up by a Chinese finance company who canned it.

        Gecko is Mozilla. Opera's engine was Presto. Opera got bought up by a Chinese finance company who canned it.

        7 votes
        1. Wes
          Link Parent
          From what I recall, Opera replaced Presto a few years before they were acquired. Even then, it took considerable resources to maintain a layout engine.

          From what I recall, Opera replaced Presto a few years before they were acquired. Even then, it took considerable resources to maintain a layout engine.

          6 votes
      2. [5]
        adutchman
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        There's two projects to keep an eye on at the moment: Servo and Ladybird. It's more competition than we've had in ages but they're still in early development. Edit: Yes, apparently.

        There's two projects to keep an eye on at the moment: Servo and Ladybird. It's more competition than we've had in ages but they're still in early development.

        Edit: Yes, apparently.

        6 votes
        1. [4]
          trim
          Link Parent
          I've tried early Ladybird, long way to go. Perhaps even longer since they're moving to Swift from C++.

          I've tried early Ladybird, long way to go. Perhaps even longer since they're moving to Swift from C++.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            adutchman
            Link Parent
            Is that a definite decision? Last time I heard something about it they were only considering it.

            Is that a definite decision? Last time I heard something about it they were only considering it.

            1 vote
    2. ButteredToast
      Link Parent
      At this point, I think that Chrome/Chromium has become critical infrastructure and should be managed and developed by a nonprofit or at least a B corp, with funding having zero ties to web...

      At this point, I think that Chrome/Chromium has become critical infrastructure and should be managed and developed by a nonprofit or at least a B corp, with funding having zero ties to web advertising. I think that if such an organization is spun out as part of a Google breakup it would quickly amass funding on par to or higher than that of Blender simply because of how pivotal it’s become to so many companies.

      3 votes
  2. [3]
    TonesTones
    Link
    Articles like these frustrate me because they seem to distort the economic discourse. I think the author, and some of the academics and industry experts they quote, have misinformed opinions. I...
    • Exemplary

    Articles like these frustrate me because they seem to distort the economic discourse. I think the author, and some of the academics and industry experts they quote, have misinformed opinions. I genuinely can't tell if these experts are getting their quotes taken out of context, if they are making arguments that are bad faith, or if they actually believe the things they claim.

    Before I begin, I recognize these experts quoted don't have the space to give a nuanced take on these issues in articles, and I do. But I also think that if you actually have faith in the nuanced take, your abbreviated, unnuanced take should be the best approximation of the nuanced take. I don't think that's what's happened here.

    “Monopolisation cases are difficult to win, but even harder to remedy,” says David Balto, an antitrust lawyer and former Federal Trade Commission official. “It’s very, very hard to change the nature of a market.” That is particularly the case, he adds, in businesses with network effects, where “there are natural reasons why you end up with dominant firms” — something common to many tech markets.

    "The nature of the market" is the fundamental idea I have issue with, which makes me so frustrated. There is no natural state of the market. Economies are emergent properties of consumer behaviors, producer behaviors, and the rules set forth by the government. We don't have a natural market, we have a market produced by years of government protecting corporations but failing to protect consumers. The use of "nature of the market" is especially aggravating coming from a former FTC official, since it seems explicitly engineered to absolve the government of responsibility when anti-consumer markets exist.

    On Anarchism I recognize there is a political position where society can exist without a governing body. As far as I'm aware, historical examples of such a society tend to barter (if it can be even called that) via some form of "gift economy" or exchanges where the value of goods is understood by trandition and remains largely fixed.

    I'm not calling these markets, since (as far as I understand) prices of goods don't really exist, so a lot of economic analysis doesn't apply. Every historical instance I'm aware of that involved market bartering as we understand it involved a governing body or a very quick emergence of a governing body to resolve disputes.

    I'm happy to be corrected. However, I'm not dealing with 'just because we haven't tried it, doesn't mean it can't exist'. I agree, but this post is largely meant to show what holds with the economics we do know, which only constitutes the things we have tried.

    “If the court broke up Google, it wouldn’t change these monopolistic conditions,” says Michael Cusumano, a management professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. A break-up would also be an overly harsh punishment for a company that has achieved much of its success through its search innovations, he adds.

    "Monopolistic conditions" is probably a better term than "nature of the market", but it still disempowers the government in this context. The key idea for both of these experts seems to be the idea that in some markets, it is easier for a company to gain a monopoly. I absolutely agree, but it's worth repeating that every company wants to have a monopoly. Ostensibly, there may be some companies that are pro-competition, but every company could reduce costs (read: salaries), reduce friction for both their operations and their consumers, and increase profits by monopolizing their markets. Which means every company is incentivzed to create monopolistic conditions in a market if they can be the monopoly.

    To me, there seem to be two things that are both independently sufficient for monopolistic conditions, (and these two things are really two sides of the same coin). First, there's high startup costs; if there's a lot of upfront investment required to enter a market, the first firm to do so will achieve a monopoly. Second, there's innovation; if a company does something better than its competition, and wins a majority of consumers in this way, they can leverage their user base to create a monopoly.

    Realistically, every instance of high startup costs is an instance of innovation, but there are instances of innovation where there are low startup costs, and in this case, it is fairly easy for competition to replicate the innovation, and end the monopoly. In this scenario, companies use trade secrets (government protection to reduce corporate espionage), non-compete contracts (government protection to reduce monetization of people as assets), patents (government protection to incentivize R&D), and other tools to maintain their monopoly. More recently, we've seen regulatory capture become a new tool, where companies R&D without any government oversight (see self-driving), and once they've developed a safe solution, lobby for regulation so that no other company can replicate their innovation.

    On Network Effects The context for these quotes is as follows:

    Android and Chrome themselves have strong network effects that make them more attractive, the more people use them. Also, as standalone companies, they would have strong incentives to continue contracting with Google to carry its search engine.

    Chrome's network effects are largely manufactured; as @Interesting mentions, because they have a monopoly, they get control over web standards. The same is true for Android; it's a dominant OS because building an app ecosystem is quite hard, but it's the lack of transparency and willingness to cooperate to make app development easier that's manufacturing that network effect.

    Network effects are real, but I don't think they are as strong as people often say in a vacuum. For example, consider social media, which is the typical case study in network effects. We've seen new social media pop up (and die); Vine, TikTok, Instagram, etc. When apps innovate, people move. Often, new and innovative social media applications are bought by their competition, which is monopolistic, anticonsumer behavior, and the FTC keeps letting it happen.

    Most forms of monopolistic conditions are forms of government protection. There are some instances where companies try to monopolize by outcompeting with subsidization (selling a product for cheaper than its costs to maintain a monopoly and leverage network effects). My opinion is that companies need to actively leverage many different forms of "monopolistic conditions" to maintain a monopoly.

    See Youtube, which maintains a dominant market share via regulatory capture, network effects, high startup costs, trade secrets, and subsidization (Youtube's data informs Google's ad business). And there is still competition (streaming services, Nebula, etc.).

    The point is that monopolies are primarily protected by the government and legal system. When government takes steps to increase competition, evolution works its magic. Companies are justifiably terrified of competition, since they could die. Competition always benefits the consumer. Sometimes, it doesn't benefit society (patents incentivize R&D, sometimes governments regulate monopolies to reduce duplication of infrastructure, etc.), but it always benefits the individual consumer.

    What irritates me is that this is not new or novel economics. This has been known since at least the era of FDR. Companies (and apparently industry experts) like to pretend these are new problems with hard solutions, but they've existed forever, and they are solved with a change in government action (I say change because they are always acting). I hope one day we can invent a passive solution to disincentivize monopolization without damaging society. Until then, godspeed to Lina Khan and the FTC.

    23 votes
    1. [2]
      Minori
      Link Parent
      I'm curious about this one. Do you have some examples of regulations that Google helped craft to protect YouTube's market position? I'm aware of some ISP deals they've made in South Korea (see...

      See Youtube, which maintains a dominant market share via regulatory capture

      I'm curious about this one. Do you have some examples of regulations that Google helped craft to protect YouTube's market position? I'm aware of some ISP deals they've made in South Korea (see Twitch pulling out of the country), but those deals stem more from Korean chaebols rather than Google's strength.

      5 votes
      1. gary
        Link Parent
        Not the person you replied to, and I wouldn't call it regulatory capture since Google didn't create or enhance the environment as far as I know (not far), but Google benefits from a grotesque...

        Not the person you replied to, and I wouldn't call it regulatory capture since Google didn't create or enhance the environment as far as I know (not far), but Google benefits from a grotesque legal framework regarding copyright. The media companies have settled on a compromise with Google that supersedes DMCA allowing Google to retain safety in being sued and media companies to not really test the extent of their rights.

        This gives Google, the incumbent, a competitive advantage that no startups could enjoy. Startups could benefit from government regulation/deregulation that clarifies fair use better and also legal repercussions against false DMCA claims. That's how I understand it at least, but I haven't looked hard into this so take it all with a large grain of salt.

        4 votes
  3. creesch
    Link
    Related discussion on tildes from a few days ago I am not sure this article brings much new to the table. Though with FT, I personally feel, that is often the case. Rather predictable, it does...

    Related discussion on tildes from a few days ago

    I am not sure this article brings much new to the table. Though with FT, I personally feel, that is often the case. Rather predictable, it does focus on monetary aspects first (ad pricing, stock value, etc), briefly touches on some possible approaches to breaking up google and even manages to shoehorn in AI.

    7 votes