It’s good to see a new smaller option entering the fray. Size bloat seems to have taken root in the laptop space, with 14” now being “small”. I do hope they eventually offer a more premium version...
It’s good to see a new smaller option entering the fray. Size bloat seems to have taken root in the laptop space, with 14” now being “small”.
I do hope they eventually offer a more premium version that’s adjacent to the 13 in hardware and build, though. The single RAM slot, DRAMless SSD, and big bezel glossy screen really dim its appeal for me, even if they’re necessary to drive the cost down.
For what it’s worth, I think most of the number bloat is just shrinking bezels on the screen. For example, the current MacBook Pro 14 inch is 12.31 in by 8.71 in. The original mid 2009 MacBook Pro...
For what it’s worth, I think most of the number bloat is just shrinking bezels on the screen. For example, the current MacBook Pro 14 inch is 12.31 in by 8.71 in. The original mid 2009 MacBook Pro 13 inch is 12.78 in by 8.94 in. So the current one is actually a bit narrower, but a little deeper.
There is some of that for sure, and it’s something I welcome (to an extent, a little bit of bezel is useful). There’s still footprint differences in some cases though, for example with the 12”...
There is some of that for sure, and it’s something I welcome (to an extent, a little bit of bezel is useful). There’s still footprint differences in some cases though, for example with the 12” ThinkPad X1 Nano that got discontinued in favor of 13/14” ThinkPads, even though the footprints of those are notably larger.
Apple doesn’t have anything nearly as small as the 12” MacBook used to be either, which is a shame because their current CPUs are so much better suited to the form factor than the slow hot Intel CPUs those machines got built with.
Yeah, that is definitely true. For Apple in particular, I think the <12 size class is supposed to be filled with the iPad line. That doesn’t do anything for the people who can’t do their work on...
Yeah, that is definitely true. For Apple in particular, I think the <12 size class is supposed to be filled with the iPad line. That doesn’t do anything for the people who can’t do their work on iPadOS, but a large swath of the public doesn’t need macOS. Either way, I am glad to see framework stepping in to fill this gap. It’s been fun watching other laptop manufacturers slowly, grudgingly, make their devices more repairable since framework launched. I’m glad that framework is doing well enough to provide some more market pressure.
Next, I’d like to see them attempt a tablet style device like the surface pro. I absolutely love that form factor, but those computers are so unfriendly to repair.
If they do a tablet, I think they’d be well served by developing an ARM SoC-based mainboard. x86 CPUs have gotten more efficient, but they still have a ways to go before they can match ARM SoCs in...
If they do a tablet, I think they’d be well served by developing an ARM SoC-based mainboard. x86 CPUs have gotten more efficient, but they still have a ways to go before they can match ARM SoCs in terms of power consumption and heat.
It may be possible to make the mainboard compatible with the FW13 form factor too, which I’m sure some people would be interested in - a repairable, efficient, fanless 13” ARM laptop sounds appealing.
Oh yeah. Since Apple silicon came or and proved how good arm can be, x86 has been standing with one foot in the grave. Framework did release a RISC-V dev board module a bit ago. Before anyone goes...
Oh yeah. Since Apple silicon came or and proved how good arm can be, x86 has been standing with one foot in the grave. Framework did release a RISC-V dev board module a bit ago. Before anyone goes out and buys it, it is actually intended only for kernel developers and such. But, if I remember correctly, it is a framework 13 compatible motherboard. So if they get support for that going, they should be good to go. If they release a surface pro form factor tablet with RISC-V, I think I might buy it immediately.
Yeah RISC-V is cool but still very slow and not really worth it for anything other than tinkering or actual RISC-V development. Meanwhile, ARM can actually be usable for lots of people.
Yeah RISC-V is cool but still very slow and not really worth it for anything other than tinkering or actual RISC-V development. Meanwhile, ARM can actually be usable for lots of people.
I just built a 13" for a client last week. I came away genuinely impressed with the company, and the machine. There's still plenty to criticize. I'd give the hardware a 5/5 for ease of assembly,...
I just built a 13" for a client last week. I came away genuinely impressed with the company, and the machine. There's still plenty to criticize. I'd give the hardware a 5/5 for ease of assembly, but the documentation a 2/5 at best. The saving grace is that people are able to comment on each step, because if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have been able to get past the first boot RAM wait (it would sit forever with both modules installed; with just one, everything was fine, then you could reinstall the second without issue).
Still, I'm pretty sure my next machine is going to be a framework. There are precious few companies that are trying to genuinely do right for their users, and they deserve our support.
I definitely recommend Framework. If you want to save a few bucks look at their 13 refurbs, they're fully assembled and come with a power cable. I have a 16 I don't use much but it's decently...
I definitely recommend Framework. If you want to save a few bucks look at their 13 refurbs, they're fully assembled and come with a power cable.
I have a 16 I don't use much but it's decently powerful (got the biggest one on offer though), but it's very capable and I wanted it so that I could upgrade if needed.
Their POST stuff is kinda funky, but helped me diagnose a dead RAM stick I cheaped out on for my refurb 13.
Hard agree here. I got my AMD Framework 13 with one of the first batches they shipped out of those and even the QR codes in the boxes linked to a mixture of old and outdated information that...
the documentation a 2/5 at best
Hard agree here. I got my AMD Framework 13 with one of the first batches they shipped out of those and even the QR codes in the boxes linked to a mixture of old and outdated information that didn't apply to the newer parts, I guess, and links that were just 404s for documentation that hadn't been created yet.
I find it rather curious that it's not built on the basis of working with much of the Framework 13 components. I understand that a convertible laptop/tablet does benefit from being a little...
I find it rather curious that it's not built on the basis of working with much of the Framework 13 components. I understand that a convertible laptop/tablet does benefit from being a little smaller to use in tablet form factors, plus smaller screen etc. may cut down on costs, but that's at the expense of increasing complexity of supply chain and parts.
I've sort of been in the market for something like this, as I don't currently own a tablet and my laptop is old and bulky, so I had been considering getting something lightweight that can also serve as a tablet for some situations where that form factor is more convenient. So this is something that could potentially fit the bill. I'm not particularly excited about it being turned into more of a flimsy toy compared to the Framework 13 but seeing as they really didn't release much about it and their website has an inexplicable waiting lobby to load the site, I guess I'll keep an open mind about what the product could still be.
If they are targeting schools with their 12" tablet, then that may well justify re-working the product from the ground up to meet the particular needs of school IT departments. Schools buy in bulk...
If they are targeting schools with their 12" tablet, then that may well justify re-working the product from the ground up to meet the particular needs of school IT departments. Schools buy in bulk and are likely to be repeat customers (buying replacement parts as they are lost or damaged), so there is good economy of scale to be had.
Are there any existing products that are serving schools currently that show that schools desire 12" devices more than 13" devices? I'm not involved in that realm and have no reason to know that...
Are there any existing products that are serving schools currently that show that schools desire 12" devices more than 13" devices? I'm not involved in that realm and have no reason to know that information so it's somewhat of an earnest question but also one of skepticism that the difference in size would be that significant of a factor in that market.
Unsure. It could be a form of lock in so those devices can't cannibalize part of the 13 sales but it could also be a legitimate redesign. Schools do prefer smaller devices as students are...
Unsure. It could be a form of lock in so those devices can't cannibalize part of the 13 sales but it could also be a legitimate redesign.
Schools do prefer smaller devices as students are frequently seated close together. Additionally schools care about weight because children down to age 5 will use these, so they have to be light. Lastly, the 13 chassis is an older design that they're a bit stuck with, so this provides them more opportunities to change up construction without needing to worry about 13 part compatibility.
I'm not sure how vital the exact size is, but being able to convert it into tablet with touchscreen and stylus means it will be a lot more competitive against the iPad (which are popular in...
I'm not sure how vital the exact size is, but being able to convert it into tablet with touchscreen and stylus means it will be a lot more competitive against the iPad (which are popular in elementary schools) than a standard laptop would be.
I know that's a typo but my brain shut down when I read it. Either way, I love the green. Shame it seems that I'm never going to let my XPS-13 die, bottom bezel webcam be damned.
and up to 2GB of NVMe storage,
I know that's a typo but my brain shut down when I read it. Either way, I love the green. Shame it seems that I'm never going to let my XPS-13 die, bottom bezel webcam be damned.
They're fine. Depends on what you get. You can get the latest and greatest in mobile chips and not be far behind desktop. The biggest bottleneck to performance is heat management, not raw...
They're fine. Depends on what you get. You can get the latest and greatest in mobile chips and not be far behind desktop. The biggest bottleneck to performance is heat management, not raw potential. But if you want a good laptop that's portable, you'll be looking for something more reasonable on power consumption. Those professors plenty powerful as well but obviously there's price bands.
It was a 17 minute queue 8 hours ago... Does Apple also have a site queue? It seems like they could just not have a queue? Is this artificial scarcity? I guess it makes sense to slowly ramp up...
It was a 17 minute queue 8 hours ago... Does Apple also have a site queue? It seems like they could just not have a queue? Is this artificial scarcity? I guess it makes sense to slowly ramp up orders so they don't get blocked by financial institutions, etc.
According to some tweets from Framework themselves, their web servers simply do not have the capacity to handle the amount of traffic they're seeing haha. That's why they had to rely on the...
According to some tweets from Framework themselves, their web servers simply do not have the capacity to handle the amount of traffic they're seeing haha. That's why they had to rely on the Cloudflare site queue. The site queue timing also isn't accurate unfortunately so I gave up trying to access the site today.
It’s good to see a new smaller option entering the fray. Size bloat seems to have taken root in the laptop space, with 14” now being “small”.
I do hope they eventually offer a more premium version that’s adjacent to the 13 in hardware and build, though. The single RAM slot, DRAMless SSD, and big bezel glossy screen really dim its appeal for me, even if they’re necessary to drive the cost down.
For what it’s worth, I think most of the number bloat is just shrinking bezels on the screen. For example, the current MacBook Pro 14 inch is 12.31 in by 8.71 in. The original mid 2009 MacBook Pro 13 inch is 12.78 in by 8.94 in. So the current one is actually a bit narrower, but a little deeper.
There is some of that for sure, and it’s something I welcome (to an extent, a little bit of bezel is useful). There’s still footprint differences in some cases though, for example with the 12” ThinkPad X1 Nano that got discontinued in favor of 13/14” ThinkPads, even though the footprints of those are notably larger.
Apple doesn’t have anything nearly as small as the 12” MacBook used to be either, which is a shame because their current CPUs are so much better suited to the form factor than the slow hot Intel CPUs those machines got built with.
Yeah, that is definitely true. For Apple in particular, I think the <12 size class is supposed to be filled with the iPad line. That doesn’t do anything for the people who can’t do their work on iPadOS, but a large swath of the public doesn’t need macOS. Either way, I am glad to see framework stepping in to fill this gap. It’s been fun watching other laptop manufacturers slowly, grudgingly, make their devices more repairable since framework launched. I’m glad that framework is doing well enough to provide some more market pressure.
Next, I’d like to see them attempt a tablet style device like the surface pro. I absolutely love that form factor, but those computers are so unfriendly to repair.
If they do a tablet, I think they’d be well served by developing an ARM SoC-based mainboard. x86 CPUs have gotten more efficient, but they still have a ways to go before they can match ARM SoCs in terms of power consumption and heat.
It may be possible to make the mainboard compatible with the FW13 form factor too, which I’m sure some people would be interested in - a repairable, efficient, fanless 13” ARM laptop sounds appealing.
Oh yeah. Since Apple silicon came or and proved how good arm can be, x86 has been standing with one foot in the grave. Framework did release a RISC-V dev board module a bit ago. Before anyone goes out and buys it, it is actually intended only for kernel developers and such. But, if I remember correctly, it is a framework 13 compatible motherboard. So if they get support for that going, they should be good to go. If they release a surface pro form factor tablet with RISC-V, I think I might buy it immediately.
Yeah RISC-V is cool but still very slow and not really worth it for anything other than tinkering or actual RISC-V development. Meanwhile, ARM can actually be usable for lots of people.
I just built a 13" for a client last week. I came away genuinely impressed with the company, and the machine. There's still plenty to criticize. I'd give the hardware a 5/5 for ease of assembly, but the documentation a 2/5 at best. The saving grace is that people are able to comment on each step, because if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have been able to get past the first boot RAM wait (it would sit forever with both modules installed; with just one, everything was fine, then you could reinstall the second without issue).
Still, I'm pretty sure my next machine is going to be a framework. There are precious few companies that are trying to genuinely do right for their users, and they deserve our support.
I definitely recommend Framework. If you want to save a few bucks look at their 13 refurbs, they're fully assembled and come with a power cable.
I have a 16 I don't use much but it's decently powerful (got the biggest one on offer though), but it's very capable and I wanted it so that I could upgrade if needed.
Their POST stuff is kinda funky, but helped me diagnose a dead RAM stick I cheaped out on for my refurb 13.
Hard agree here. I got my AMD Framework 13 with one of the first batches they shipped out of those and even the QR codes in the boxes linked to a mixture of old and outdated information that didn't apply to the newer parts, I guess, and links that were just 404s for documentation that hadn't been created yet.
I find it rather curious that it's not built on the basis of working with much of the Framework 13 components. I understand that a convertible laptop/tablet does benefit from being a little smaller to use in tablet form factors, plus smaller screen etc. may cut down on costs, but that's at the expense of increasing complexity of supply chain and parts.
I've sort of been in the market for something like this, as I don't currently own a tablet and my laptop is old and bulky, so I had been considering getting something lightweight that can also serve as a tablet for some situations where that form factor is more convenient. So this is something that could potentially fit the bill. I'm not particularly excited about it being turned into more of a flimsy toy compared to the Framework 13 but seeing as they really didn't release much about it and their website has an inexplicable waiting lobby to load the site, I guess I'll keep an open mind about what the product could still be.
If they are targeting schools with their 12" tablet, then that may well justify re-working the product from the ground up to meet the particular needs of school IT departments. Schools buy in bulk and are likely to be repeat customers (buying replacement parts as they are lost or damaged), so there is good economy of scale to be had.
Are there any existing products that are serving schools currently that show that schools desire 12" devices more than 13" devices? I'm not involved in that realm and have no reason to know that information so it's somewhat of an earnest question but also one of skepticism that the difference in size would be that significant of a factor in that market.
Unsure. It could be a form of lock in so those devices can't cannibalize part of the 13 sales but it could also be a legitimate redesign.
Schools do prefer smaller devices as students are frequently seated close together. Additionally schools care about weight because children down to age 5 will use these, so they have to be light. Lastly, the 13 chassis is an older design that they're a bit stuck with, so this provides them more opportunities to change up construction without needing to worry about 13 part compatibility.
I'm not sure how vital the exact size is, but being able to convert it into tablet with touchscreen and stylus means it will be a lot more competitive against the iPad (which are popular in elementary schools) than a standard laptop would be.
I know that's a typo but my brain shut down when I read it. Either way, I love the green. Shame it seems that I'm never going to let my XPS-13 die, bottom bezel webcam be damned.
Pretty nice. How are the current Intel/AMD laptop processor’s performance wise? I haven’t been keeping up since I changed to the M MacBooks.
They're fine. Depends on what you get. You can get the latest and greatest in mobile chips and not be far behind desktop. The biggest bottleneck to performance is heat management, not raw potential. But if you want a good laptop that's portable, you'll be looking for something more reasonable on power consumption. Those professors plenty powerful as well but obviously there's price bands.
Wow. As of now, there's a queue of 4 minutes just to use the website! Unbelievable!
It was a 17 minute queue 8 hours ago... Does Apple also have a site queue? It seems like they could just not have a queue? Is this artificial scarcity? I guess it makes sense to slowly ramp up orders so they don't get blocked by financial institutions, etc.
According to some tweets from Framework themselves, their web servers simply do not have the capacity to handle the amount of traffic they're seeing haha. That's why they had to rely on the Cloudflare site queue. The site queue timing also isn't accurate unfortunately so I gave up trying to access the site today.
The site's working now if you're still trying to take a look!