This is actually something I've changed positions on significantly over the years. I used to diligently archive and backup all of my media, making sure that I had a singular, quality copy that I...
Exemplary
This is actually something I've changed positions on significantly over the years.
I used to diligently archive and backup all of my media, making sure that I had a singular, quality copy that I controlled. I ripped all my CDs to FLAC, deDRMed every Kindle book I bought, backed up copies of my games off every service that would let me (Humble, Desura, and GOG mostly), and ripped high-quality versions of all my DVDs (and then re-ripped and re-ripped again as video codecs improved over the years). Everything was dutifully (and beautifully) organized, tagged, and backed up both locally and on cloud storage. It was also all legitimate too--my whole library was stuff that I had bought and paid for myself.
The sense of ownership was real, and it gave me the comfortable feeling of "forever". Even if I lost my CDs to a fire, I'd still have the rips. Even if my computer was stolen, I'd pull everything from cloud storage. Save some catastrophic event, I would have these things for all time. Forever.
Unfortunately, this whole process threw my priorities out of whack. I turned my collection itself into my entertainment. I spent more time organizing and setting everything up than I did actually using my content for its intended purpose. I spent more time tweaking Calibre than I did reading. I spent more time fiddling with XBMC/Kodi/Plex than I did watching movies. Not only that, but I then found myself prioritizing quantity over quality. I would scour deal sites and find content I wanted very cheap, buying it not because I had a legitimate interest in engaging with it in the near future but because I wanted to dump it into my "forever hoard." For any of you who have ever found yourselves here, you know that it's a deep hole with no clear exit.
What my concept of "forever" didn't take into account was the idea that the way we got media would change. I remember when Blu-rays started coming out, and I felt a bit uncomfortable about my movie collection. I had spent so much time lovingly curating and crafting it, ripping each and every single disc several times. Now it was suddenly inferior. Low resolution. As dated as the VHS tapes I used to own. Then streaming started, and it was another storm cloud over my parade. For the price of a single movie I could have access to thousands. Including new releases. The idea of going to the store, buying a disc, waiting for the disc to rip, and then tagging and organizing it properly felt cumbersome instead of liberating. Why wouldn't I just stream the movie with a couple of clicks? It was so much easier.
My collection still exists, but it looks more like a museum at this point. Every so often I dust things off and delve into it, but for the most part it's been replaced by better, more convenient services. There's still a lot in there I've never watched/read/listened to. Much of it I probably never will, because it's in there not because I legitimately was interested in it, but because I could snag a copy for $2 and add it to my trove. Or, worse, I was interested in it, but that was the me of 12 years ago, and I'm no longer in the same place. My concept of "forever" also didn't take into account how I would change personally. Do I really need rips of those metalcore albums I used to listen to if I'm never going to return to them?
The truth of the matter is that there is simply so much content out there these days that I don't feel the need to hold on to most individual pieces. The books in my trove that I have read? I've read nearly all of them only once. I haven't returned to them. Same with my movies. One and done. Temporary access for these would have been fine in the first place, because I just simply don't come back to most of them. If someone were to go in and delete a bunch of random things from my personal library, I probably wouldn't even notice. In fact, at this point, my library feels more like the weight of the past than an entertainment asset. If I were to delete it, I would free up a ton of hard drive space and I could pay for a much smaller cloud storage plan!
There are a handful of things that I hold onto for sentimental reasons, or because they're distinct personal favorites, but those are far from the bulk of my library. That said, even if I lost those, I wouldn't be too concerned. Alongside streaming, there has been another big development: online product selection and availability. It used to be that I was limited to what was on store shelves near me, and if I couldn't find something there then I couldn't have it. These days, I can order practically whatever I want online, no matter how rare or obscure. If I really did want to revisit a favorite that I'd gotten rid of, there's a good chance I'd be able to get another copy easily from one of many online retailers.
These days, my media consumption is very temporary. Books and audiobooks I mostly get from the library. I buy my own copy only if my libraries can't get it. I check my available streaming options for movies, renting them digitally if I can't find them on a service I already pay for. Music is done mostly through subscription services, with the occasional purchase on Bandcamp for stuff that isn't in the streaming library. Games I get mostly through GOG because I like them as a company, though I certainly have plenty through Steam that could go away at any moment. My entertainment priority has always been seeking out new experiences, and, once I'm done with something, I'm generally done with it forever. As such, I'm fine with not holding onto it. I invite my content friends over, but then they leave when the night is done, no longer overstaying their welcome.
Well put. I still favor ownership over rental/subscription models on principle, but I'd be hard-pressed to answer "why?" I've got a dusty old DVD collection I never watch, and a box of old CDs I...
Well put. I still favor ownership over rental/subscription models on principle, but I'd be hard-pressed to answer "why?" I've got a dusty old DVD collection I never watch, and a box of old CDs I never listen to, and an iTunes library full of meticulously-tagged MP3s I migrated over from SoundJam MP once upon a time. To what end? I'm literally just hoarding things I cared about long ago, but no longer do.
The only thing that gives me pause is that I am holding some pretty rare content. B-sides you can't find anywhere anymore, unreleased recordings of TV specials that have been forgotten, stuff like that. Specific things almost no one cares about. I'm not a formal archivist and I'm not doing anything to propagate this content anywhere else, but I still wonder if deleting my copy of something might be deleting it from the world entirely. I can't help but feel guilty about situations like those.
You should consider uploading it to archive.org. Doesn't look like it's very hard. If anyone but you cares about it, then they'd go there to find it most likely....
You should consider uploading it to archive.org. Doesn't look like it's very hard. If anyone but you cares about it, then they'd go there to find it most likely.
You have a fascinatingly extreme perspective, and I mean that with all due respect. I find myself somewhere in the middle of the two extremes of fully streaming and fully backed up media after a...
You have a fascinatingly extreme perspective, and I mean that with all due respect. I find myself somewhere in the middle of the two extremes of fully streaming and fully backed up media after a couple years (2015-17) of skewing much harder towards streaming-only despite having an NAS for about 6 years.
Basically, if it’s a TV show that’s consistently available on a streaming service I pay for (Netflix, HBO Now, Showtime Anytime, etc.), then I don’t bother with saving to my server. Movies aren’t really my thing, so I have <30 total in my personal library mainly composed of my concert videos and DVDs my wife bought years ago. Music on the other hand is fully backed up but supplemented with a Spotify subscription for “ad hoc” listening for things I know I don’t need locally.
A main reason I’m still into compiling my own content is the benefit of having all my media accessible via a single app (Plex). There’s something to be said about having everything in one place no matter what device it is - even my podcasts run through it. Another reason is the fact that many shows I watch aren’t available to stream (e.g. foreign content). Same with obscure/live music. I just think I’ve found the right balance that works for me without being overly burdensome on the side of content organization. At least beyond the initial setup period.
That said, it took some time to get things humming along, but now that the server is up, it’s just routine maintenance with the content adding process partially automated using Sonarr. The time never felt wasted though. I don’t come from an IT/systems/programming background, so learning how to setup an NAS and home server was fun because it was educational and challenging.
One more thing to address your discussion of music you don’t care for anymore. I think it’s cool to hold on to stuff like that. It’s no different than a photo album of old memories - I like to revisit old music/playlists from when I was at a different point in life. Preserving them as they were let’s me relive the past to some extent, and so many memories are attached to music for me.
EDIT: My friends and family would also be sad if I took my server down. I’m on a gig connection and share my library with probably 15 people at this point. It’s become a mini-Netflix service for content that isn’t available on other services ha. Also a good way of getting people into random obscure shows they wouldn’t otherwise know about.
EDIT2: Oh and I’m also not obsessive about video quality. If it’s 1080p, then I’m happy with it. I settle for 720p on shows for my wife since she cares even less. You’ll never find me replacing shows I already have with Blu-Ray versions of the same thing.
Ever since I left streaming music and started curating FLACs I feel like I have a greater understanding of music and appreciate it more. Before I would just let the algorithm tell me what I want...
Ever since I left streaming music and started curating FLACs I feel like I have a greater understanding of music and appreciate it more. Before I would just let the algorithm tell me what I want to hear but now I scour forums to find stuff I like and build up playlists that I really like and not just the hottest 100 or a mix of stuff I have already listened to 1000 times.
I'm somewhat similar, except I don't really see it as a problem. Granted, I'm not putting that much time into it, and I wouldn't feel too bad about losing my collection. But I spend $35/month on...
I'm somewhat similar, except I don't really see it as a problem. Granted, I'm not putting that much time into it, and I wouldn't feel too bad about losing my collection. But I spend $35/month on an 8TB seedbox and torrent movies just so that I can seed them. I encode movies just to be a helpful member of the community, even if I'll never watch the movie in full. It's a hobby. If it reached the point of obsession I could see the merit of a hard stop, but I don't think I'll ever get there.
I remember reading about the kerfuffle involving Amazon and '1984' when it happened, and I was not slow to learn the lesson that people don't own digital content in the same way that they own...
I remember reading about the kerfuffle involving Amazon and '1984' when it happened, and I was not slow to learn the lesson that people don't own digital content in the same way that they own physical content.
Therefore, when I got a kobo, I decided to load it only with those books I was happy to lose. Any books that I want to keep are still in printed copies on my bookshelf. I started buying music digitally a few years back, and every song I purchase from the Google Play Store gets immediately downloaded to my hard drive where Google can't get its grubby mitts on them. I stream movies and television via Netflix and Stan, but I know they're only rented. If I want to keep a movie or series, I buy it on DVD or Blu-ray.
Digital is temporary, and physical is permanent. That's how I treat my content. I'll use digital for stuff that's only transient or on trial or that I don't mind losing - but if I want to keep something, I'll get a physical (or at least an offline) copy.
Any books I buy for my Kobo I strip the DRM with Calibre and put them on Dropbox too. Not a perfect solution but easier than managing the backups myself. I also don't trust physical books as a...
Any books I buy for my Kobo I strip the DRM with Calibre and put them on Dropbox too. Not a perfect solution but easier than managing the backups myself. I also don't trust physical books as a long-term (i.e. on the scale of my lifetime) solution either. My parents have collections of books from the '60s–'80s and many of them aren't holding up too well, plus I've had to give away several of my own books that were too big when moving across the country. Then there's the problem of just finding a place to put everything in a small apartment.
I have a couple of physical books that are more than 100 years old, and quite a few books in the 50-100 year bracket. There are also books around which are more than a millennium old. I'll bet on...
I have a couple of physical books that are more than 100 years old, and quite a few books in the 50-100 year bracket. There are also books around which are more than a millennium old. I'll bet on paper over digital for long-term storage every time.
Having space to store the books is another matter, but I'm not worried about them surviving.
That's a good point—I've started buying some of my favourites in a higher quality physical format. I was more thinking the typical quality that a lot of mass market paperbacks have which is what a...
That's a good point—I've started buying some of my favourites in a higher quality physical format. I was more thinking the typical quality that a lot of mass market paperbacks have which is what a lot of the books I have are.
The oldest book I have is actually 230 years old. It's a travel guide to London! It's a properly bound book, about 10cm x 8cm, and 3cm thick. It even includes fold-out maps. (It's a bit worn,...
The oldest book I have is actually 230 years old. It's a travel guide to London! It's a properly bound book, about 10cm x 8cm, and 3cm thick. It even includes fold-out maps. (It's a bit worn, though - it's had a hard life.) I bought it just for the curiosity factor of owning a book that old.
Apart from that, there's nothing notable unless you're into Australian history or Golden Age science fiction.
I didn't really want to turn this into a discussion about my personal library. I was merely making the point that physical books last for decades and centuries. (And, it turns out, I don't have...
I didn't really want to turn this into a discussion about my personal library. I was merely making the point that physical books last for decades and centuries.
(And, it turns out, I don't have that many 50+ year-old books in the Golden Age science fiction section of my library. They're mostly in the Australian history section.)
That’s not as true as you present it. Physical still can get destroyed by a fire, a flood, burglars, whatever. On the other hand, DRM-free digital can be easily backed up. So for example, if you...
Digital is temporary, and physical is permanent.
That’s not as true as you present it. Physical still can get destroyed by a fire, a flood, burglars, whatever. On the other hand, DRM-free digital can be easily backed up. So for example, if you could afford to keep:
a working directory,
a locally stored backup (eg. external drive),
a cloud backup (preferably encrypted),
then if I was concerned about content preservation, at least for myself and my use, I would take digital over physical. While digital copies can be destroyed as easily, nothing stops you from making another one.
I wholeheartedly agree about renting digital stuff.
It’s completely true. But the digital data has a beautiful property – it can be copied ad infinitum (well, there’s the danger of making corrupted copies, but that’s a different story). If you...
If you destroy the hard drive the data is stored on, the data will cease to exist.
It’s completely true. But the digital data has a beautiful property – it can be copied ad infinitum (well, there’s the danger of making corrupted copies, but that’s a different story). If you loose a book, you loose it. If you loose a single digital copy, you restore it from a backup, and maintain the number of backups at desired number n.
In 100 hundred years the tech will be different, sure. But if we don’t have a global catastrophe, a solar flare or something else that wipes the hardware or energy grid – i.e., if the continuity of maintenance is not broken, I would not fear about not being able to access old content. If there’s a new format, there will be a transitional period, and there will be conversion tools – as long as the old format is open and documented, and unfortunately not every format is.
Books are much more robust. If you were to bury a vacuum-sealed capsule with a book and a SD card or a magnetic tape, I think that in 100 years there won’t be any equipment to decode and read the stored data, and the book would be perfectly readable. That’s valuable in itself.
It's all a matter of risk assessment - physical copies can be destroyed or burgled, but digital copies are at the whim of the corporation that owns them. Even when they are backed up to the cloud,...
It's all a matter of risk assessment - physical copies can be destroyed or burgled, but digital copies are at the whim of the corporation that owns them. Even when they are backed up to the cloud, that cloud company might cease to exist, or have some sort of catastrophic failure for any number of reasons.
All of these worst case scenarios have different chances of happening. Losing physical copies or having them destroyed in some way have relatively high rates of loss (still pretty low % per day, to be honest) whereas cloud based hosting would be very low. You choose the service that best fits your needs based on the perceived tolerable risk and the cost of said service.
Personally, I never replay old games, rewatch old movies, reread old books, or in general re-consume content (I have a very good memory) so I'm perfectly fine with whatever medium is given to me. Honestly if anything I should be selling off old consumed content that I know I'm not going to play again.
The difference is if something like Amazon decides to end a digital service, it affects EVERYONE who participated. If someone gets robbed, they don't rob everyone who ever owned a physical book....
The difference is if something like Amazon decides to end a digital service, it affects EVERYONE who participated. If someone gets robbed, they don't rob everyone who ever owned a physical book. But yes, physical has its drawbacks as well. Personally I use digital media over physical, but I'm not invested in content that I don't control myself. I have a media server that stores all my movies/tv/music/ebooks and then I have backups somewhere separate.
I think you misunderstood me. I do agree that if you rent a thing in Something-as-a-Service model – a game on Steam, a movie on Netflix – you don’t control it. But if a digital store stops selling...
I think you misunderstood me. I do agree that if you rent a thing in Something-as-a-Service model – a game on Steam, a movie on Netflix – you don’t control it.
But if a digital store stops selling an ebook, or goes under? I already got my stuff downloaded. Non-DRM digital (watermarks excluded, they’re best kind of DRM) is still safer than physical – in my opinion at least.
Not that I disagree with you, and this is more a technical question than anything; but what about in the far future when operating systems become defunct, or even entire file formats? Let's say...
Not that I disagree with you, and this is more a technical question than anything; but what about in the far future when operating systems become defunct, or even entire file formats? Let's say you wanted to pass down your hard drive of books to your grand children, how would they read the information on it?
At the end of the day it's all binary. I can spin up a virtual machine going all the way back to Commodore 64 without any issues whatsoever, and I'm not even the barest sort of casual hobbyist in...
what about in the far future when operating systems become defunct, or even entire file formats
At the end of the day it's all binary. I can spin up a virtual machine going all the way back to Commodore 64 without any issues whatsoever, and I'm not even the barest sort of casual hobbyist in that arena. As for file formats, once you can read them you can read them - software like Calibre or its successor's successor in 100 years time has zero motivation to 'retire' any formats, basically ever.
As long as you're storing the books with open formats, future proofing shouldn't be much of an issue. It's easy enough to convert between formats, and it's going to be a very, very long time...
As long as you're storing the books with open formats, future proofing shouldn't be much of an issue. It's easy enough to convert between formats, and it's going to be a very, very long time before someone releases a general purpose computer without a means of reading html documents.
I would make you a bet, but unfortunately neither of us will be around to collect on it. I would make a bet based on a collection of books or films or records that more of the physical versions...
That’s not as true as you present it. Physical still can get destroyed by a fire, a flood, burglars, whatever. On the other hand, DRM-free digital can be easily backed up.
I would make you a bet, but unfortunately neither of us will be around to collect on it. I would make a bet based on a collection of books or films or records that more of the physical versions would survive and still be usable in 100 years than in the equivalent collection of digital copies. In other words, I bet that, statistically, more physical books (or films or records) will last 100 years than the equivalent .epub (or .avi or .mpg) files. Books will last longer and be more likely to be readable in 2118 than .epub files.
No. Just let them go through a normal existence, whether that's leaving them forgotten in a room, throwing them away, handing them around, reading them frequently, whatever. I can make anything...
No. Just let them go through a normal existence, whether that's leaving them forgotten in a room, throwing them away, handing them around, reading them frequently, whatever. I can make anything survive if I look after it. I'm talking about content enduring without special help. Books don't need periodic maintenance to survive; .epub files should survive under the same conditions.
Things are slightly different for film and records, but I'll still bet on them over their digital equivalents.
I always told myself the day they remove my favorite shows from Netflix, the day I begin to hoard my own collection. The accessibility is just too easy right now though. We are completely...
I always told myself the day they remove my favorite shows from Netflix, the day I begin to hoard my own collection. The accessibility is just too easy right now though. We are completely disc-less in our house, so I'd have to get DRM-free digital copies or figure out a ripping solution.
What about when your favourite shows were never added to Netflix (or any other streaming service) in the first place? Lots of my fave shows aren't available for streaming anywhere.
I always told myself the day they remove my favorite shows from Netflix
What about when your favourite shows were never added to Netflix (or any other streaming service) in the first place? Lots of my fave shows aren't available for streaming anywhere.
I'm thinking older shows rather than foreign shows, but it's the same problem in both cases: streaming services are weighted towards certain types of content.
I'm thinking older shows rather than foreign shows, but it's the same problem in both cases: streaming services are weighted towards certain types of content.
I've had uninterrupted access to anything I've wanted to see, read, or hear for the last 20 years on various places on the internet, I see no reason for that to change any time soon. I pay for...
I've had uninterrupted access to anything I've wanted to see, read, or hear for the last 20 years on various places on the internet, I see no reason for that to change any time soon. I pay for Netflix and Spotify for the convenience, not the access.
I can't say the same. I have some shows/movies on DVD that have never appeared on any streaming services. But, then, I watch things which are more than 20-30 years old. I've noticed that streaming...
I've had uninterrupted access to anything I've wanted to see, read, or hear for the last 20 years on various places on the internet
I can't say the same. I have some shows/movies on DVD that have never appeared on any streaming services. But, then, I watch things which are more than 20-30 years old. I've noticed that streaming services are heavily biassed towards modern content. Older folks or people with older tastes aren't well served by streaming services. Admittedly, Spotify is more inclusive of old music than Netflix is of old shows and movies (I recently put together an "oldies" playlist). But there are plenty of old shows and movies which just aren't available online via any legal means.
Can you tell me how you reconcile the idea of public libraries with an aversion to media piracy? I 100% accept there are significant problems with the entire system as it currently exists and I...
Can you tell me how you reconcile the idea of public libraries with an aversion to media piracy?
I 100% accept there are significant problems with the entire system as it currently exists and I don't like the necessity, but I strongly believe piracy to be the lesser evil.
I'd rather not get into an argument about piracy here & now. That's why I didn't rise to the bait earlier when you implied you pirated your digital content. I've had the argument many many times...
I'd rather not get into an argument about piracy here & now. That's why I didn't rise to the bait earlier when you implied you pirated your digital content. I've had the argument many many times here and on Reddit, and it's a bit tedious for me now. It's the same old arguments on both sides, repeated over and over and over.
And it's not like either of us is actually going to change our minds.
I bet more than a few people here have fancy NAS setups with multiple hard drives in RAID and all that. It seems pretty expensive to store your own data though. A two-bay Synology with 8 TB worth...
I bet more than a few people here have fancy NAS setups with multiple hard drives in RAID and all that. It seems pretty expensive to store your own data though. A two-bay Synology with 8 TB worth of hard drives is around $550. Although compared with Google Drive pricing (10 TB for $100 a month) it seems reasonable.
The price of streaming services is miniscule compared to those though. If storage remains this expensive then cloud-stored licensed (rather than owned) data is the only option for many.
I thought storage was supposed to get cheaper perpetually. Why isn't it?
The point is $200 is still two years of Netflix with thousands of titles in their catalog. It's a no-brainer for most people to pick the licensed option rather than owned, unless they are lucky...
The point is $200 is still two years of Netflix with thousands of titles in their catalog. It's a no-brainer for most people to pick the licensed option rather than owned, unless they are lucky enough to be able to buy the $200 drive and the content to put on it.
Even for people who can afford it, storing your data requires extra effort setting up backup solutions, ripping DVDs, figuring out how to access it on the go, etc. Many people don't even care about watching a movie or playing a game more than once. So they wouldn't care about keeping a copy.
Actually that gets me thinking, maybe the shift is happening because the digital sharing culture is in decline. Piracy seems to be shrinking as everyone pays their own way, and instead of sending a file to your friend you send them a link to cloud-hosted content instead. In the past, a reason to own something was just as much for the purpose of lending to others as for having perpetual access yourself.
You make some good points but you're forgetting to factor in the cost of internet/bandwidth. Here in Canada you're probably looking at another $1000/year to have access with caps that you wouldn't...
You make some good points but you're forgetting to factor in the cost of internet/bandwidth. Here in Canada you're probably looking at another $1000/year to have access with caps that you wouldn't hit every month if you're using streaming services for music, movies, and tv.
You're right, it's about tradeoffs. If I avoid spending money on bandwidth, that implies I'm getting my content physically. Then either I'm storing the physical DVDs, requiring storage space which...
You're right, it's about tradeoffs. If I avoid spending money on bandwidth, that implies I'm getting my content physically. Then either I'm storing the physical DVDs, requiring storage space which can be prohibitive; or I'm ripping the DVDs and throwing them away, which creates environmental waste. Or I'm renting and ripping, which is technically illegal but I guess that solves the cost and environmental problems if I'm not caught.
FWIW lately I have actually been storing more content myself (not that anybody could tell from my other comments in this topic), buying digital DRM-free and downloading to hard drives locally. But I fully understand why so many people don't these days, versus where it was much more common 15, 20 years ago when Internet speeds were slower and streaming wasn't a thing.
I do have an NAS setup but mainly because it’s multi-use, not merely a device to stream my media library. My whole surveillance system runs through it for example. The photos on my phone and my...
I do have an NAS setup but mainly because it’s multi-use, not merely a device to stream my media library. My whole surveillance system runs through it for example. The photos on my phone and my wife’s phone also automatically backup to it using Synology’s DS Photo app. Gotta protect the photos of my kid, and I don’t fully trust the cloud (which I also use to back them up).
I mean the math you provided in your statement proves that's not true. One time cost of $550 or paying a subscription service X dollars/month for the rest of your life. I'm not trying to say that...
If storage remains this expensive then cloud-stored licensed (rather than owned) data is the only option for many.
I mean the math you provided in your statement proves that's not true. One time cost of $550 or paying a subscription service X dollars/month for the rest of your life. I'm not trying to say that no one should stream, but your statement reminds me of the people who say renting is cheaper than owning a home. If may be the RIGHT choice for YOU, but the math is clear.
I think you're assuming piracy where I was assuming legal content purchases. $550 gets you the storage, then you have to buy content to fill it. Plus even with the piracy route, once you fill up...
I think you're assuming piracy where I was assuming legal content purchases. $550 gets you the storage, then you have to buy content to fill it.
Plus even with the piracy route, once you fill up your hard drives then you'll have to make additional hardware storage purchases when you run out of space. Unless you're deleting old data in which case the conversation is pointless because the topic is about keeping a digital collection long-term.
Oh yeah, I was at least assuming ripping was involved. I think for me personally it is about having easy access to some old favorites and some niche content that isn't easily found, rather than...
Oh yeah, I was at least assuming ripping was involved.
I think for me personally it is about having easy access to some old favorites and some niche content that isn't easily found, rather than trying to replicate or replace what can be found through streaming.
I tell you, I'm pretty annoyed with the idea that I'm losing access to several songs on my Amazon Music playlist - I built those with a purpose.
EDIT: I'll add to that there's something crappy about how all of this works. If I bought a CD or DVD, then why shouldn't I be able to play that any way I want, including ripped on my computer? But that's all going away now. Now we rent these things as a service and what we consume is never really ours, not even a copy.
Yep I totally get that. I do both streaming and buying/ripping media for much the same reasons you mentioned, niche content and older content, and for shows/movies that I do have on streaming but...
Yep I totally get that. I do both streaming and buying/ripping media for much the same reasons you mentioned, niche content and older content, and for shows/movies that I do have on streaming but know I'll rewatch in the future. I'm actually probably less of a streamer than many; for example most of my music is purchased and downloaded/ripped because I have different tastes than what is generally on Spotify.
That said, my comments here have been an attempt to reflect common opinions I've heard from peers about how they don't care about anything other than streaming these days. I do personally want consumer storage to become cheaper, but at this rate it seems like demand may be falling, and the price of storage won't necessarily continue to drop.
My mindset was like that one you put forth but I've backslid a bit into preferring drm-free copies. I can't pinpoint a turning point, but I think a number of things played into it such as...
My mindset was like that one you put forth but I've backslid a bit into preferring drm-free copies.
I can't pinpoint a turning point, but I think a number of things played into it such as advertisements in things that I already paid for such as Windows 10 and Xbox One, ads in places where they didn't used to be such as gmail and FB chat, purposely removing functionality such as the ability to play videos in YouTube and switch to other apps, the removal of the ability to add my own files to Amazon Music, and it just seems to go on and on.
This is actually something I've changed positions on significantly over the years.
I used to diligently archive and backup all of my media, making sure that I had a singular, quality copy that I controlled. I ripped all my CDs to FLAC, deDRMed every Kindle book I bought, backed up copies of my games off every service that would let me (Humble, Desura, and GOG mostly), and ripped high-quality versions of all my DVDs (and then re-ripped and re-ripped again as video codecs improved over the years). Everything was dutifully (and beautifully) organized, tagged, and backed up both locally and on cloud storage. It was also all legitimate too--my whole library was stuff that I had bought and paid for myself.
The sense of ownership was real, and it gave me the comfortable feeling of "forever". Even if I lost my CDs to a fire, I'd still have the rips. Even if my computer was stolen, I'd pull everything from cloud storage. Save some catastrophic event, I would have these things for all time. Forever.
Unfortunately, this whole process threw my priorities out of whack. I turned my collection itself into my entertainment. I spent more time organizing and setting everything up than I did actually using my content for its intended purpose. I spent more time tweaking Calibre than I did reading. I spent more time fiddling with XBMC/Kodi/Plex than I did watching movies. Not only that, but I then found myself prioritizing quantity over quality. I would scour deal sites and find content I wanted very cheap, buying it not because I had a legitimate interest in engaging with it in the near future but because I wanted to dump it into my "forever hoard." For any of you who have ever found yourselves here, you know that it's a deep hole with no clear exit.
What my concept of "forever" didn't take into account was the idea that the way we got media would change. I remember when Blu-rays started coming out, and I felt a bit uncomfortable about my movie collection. I had spent so much time lovingly curating and crafting it, ripping each and every single disc several times. Now it was suddenly inferior. Low resolution. As dated as the VHS tapes I used to own. Then streaming started, and it was another storm cloud over my parade. For the price of a single movie I could have access to thousands. Including new releases. The idea of going to the store, buying a disc, waiting for the disc to rip, and then tagging and organizing it properly felt cumbersome instead of liberating. Why wouldn't I just stream the movie with a couple of clicks? It was so much easier.
My collection still exists, but it looks more like a museum at this point. Every so often I dust things off and delve into it, but for the most part it's been replaced by better, more convenient services. There's still a lot in there I've never watched/read/listened to. Much of it I probably never will, because it's in there not because I legitimately was interested in it, but because I could snag a copy for $2 and add it to my trove. Or, worse, I was interested in it, but that was the me of 12 years ago, and I'm no longer in the same place. My concept of "forever" also didn't take into account how I would change personally. Do I really need rips of those metalcore albums I used to listen to if I'm never going to return to them?
The truth of the matter is that there is simply so much content out there these days that I don't feel the need to hold on to most individual pieces. The books in my trove that I have read? I've read nearly all of them only once. I haven't returned to them. Same with my movies. One and done. Temporary access for these would have been fine in the first place, because I just simply don't come back to most of them. If someone were to go in and delete a bunch of random things from my personal library, I probably wouldn't even notice. In fact, at this point, my library feels more like the weight of the past than an entertainment asset. If I were to delete it, I would free up a ton of hard drive space and I could pay for a much smaller cloud storage plan!
There are a handful of things that I hold onto for sentimental reasons, or because they're distinct personal favorites, but those are far from the bulk of my library. That said, even if I lost those, I wouldn't be too concerned. Alongside streaming, there has been another big development: online product selection and availability. It used to be that I was limited to what was on store shelves near me, and if I couldn't find something there then I couldn't have it. These days, I can order practically whatever I want online, no matter how rare or obscure. If I really did want to revisit a favorite that I'd gotten rid of, there's a good chance I'd be able to get another copy easily from one of many online retailers.
These days, my media consumption is very temporary. Books and audiobooks I mostly get from the library. I buy my own copy only if my libraries can't get it. I check my available streaming options for movies, renting them digitally if I can't find them on a service I already pay for. Music is done mostly through subscription services, with the occasional purchase on Bandcamp for stuff that isn't in the streaming library. Games I get mostly through GOG because I like them as a company, though I certainly have plenty through Steam that could go away at any moment. My entertainment priority has always been seeking out new experiences, and, once I'm done with something, I'm generally done with it forever. As such, I'm fine with not holding onto it. I invite my content friends over, but then they leave when the night is done, no longer overstaying their welcome.
Well put. I still favor ownership over rental/subscription models on principle, but I'd be hard-pressed to answer "why?" I've got a dusty old DVD collection I never watch, and a box of old CDs I never listen to, and an iTunes library full of meticulously-tagged MP3s I migrated over from SoundJam MP once upon a time. To what end? I'm literally just hoarding things I cared about long ago, but no longer do.
The only thing that gives me pause is that I am holding some pretty rare content. B-sides you can't find anywhere anymore, unreleased recordings of TV specials that have been forgotten, stuff like that. Specific things almost no one cares about. I'm not a formal archivist and I'm not doing anything to propagate this content anywhere else, but I still wonder if deleting my copy of something might be deleting it from the world entirely. I can't help but feel guilty about situations like those.
You should consider uploading it to archive.org. Doesn't look like it's very hard. If anyone but you cares about it, then they'd go there to find it most likely.
https://help.archive.org/hc/en-us/articles/360017788831-How-to-upload-files-to-create-a-new-item-page-
You have a fascinatingly extreme perspective, and I mean that with all due respect. I find myself somewhere in the middle of the two extremes of fully streaming and fully backed up media after a couple years (2015-17) of skewing much harder towards streaming-only despite having an NAS for about 6 years.
Basically, if it’s a TV show that’s consistently available on a streaming service I pay for (Netflix, HBO Now, Showtime Anytime, etc.), then I don’t bother with saving to my server. Movies aren’t really my thing, so I have <30 total in my personal library mainly composed of my concert videos and DVDs my wife bought years ago. Music on the other hand is fully backed up but supplemented with a Spotify subscription for “ad hoc” listening for things I know I don’t need locally.
A main reason I’m still into compiling my own content is the benefit of having all my media accessible via a single app (Plex). There’s something to be said about having everything in one place no matter what device it is - even my podcasts run through it. Another reason is the fact that many shows I watch aren’t available to stream (e.g. foreign content). Same with obscure/live music. I just think I’ve found the right balance that works for me without being overly burdensome on the side of content organization. At least beyond the initial setup period.
That said, it took some time to get things humming along, but now that the server is up, it’s just routine maintenance with the content adding process partially automated using Sonarr. The time never felt wasted though. I don’t come from an IT/systems/programming background, so learning how to setup an NAS and home server was fun because it was educational and challenging.
One more thing to address your discussion of music you don’t care for anymore. I think it’s cool to hold on to stuff like that. It’s no different than a photo album of old memories - I like to revisit old music/playlists from when I was at a different point in life. Preserving them as they were let’s me relive the past to some extent, and so many memories are attached to music for me.
EDIT: My friends and family would also be sad if I took my server down. I’m on a gig connection and share my library with probably 15 people at this point. It’s become a mini-Netflix service for content that isn’t available on other services ha. Also a good way of getting people into random obscure shows they wouldn’t otherwise know about.
EDIT2: Oh and I’m also not obsessive about video quality. If it’s 1080p, then I’m happy with it. I settle for 720p on shows for my wife since she cares even less. You’ll never find me replacing shows I already have with Blu-Ray versions of the same thing.
Ever since I left streaming music and started curating FLACs I feel like I have a greater understanding of music and appreciate it more. Before I would just let the algorithm tell me what I want to hear but now I scour forums to find stuff I like and build up playlists that I really like and not just the hottest 100 or a mix of stuff I have already listened to 1000 times.
I'm somewhat similar, except I don't really see it as a problem. Granted, I'm not putting that much time into it, and I wouldn't feel too bad about losing my collection. But I spend $35/month on an 8TB seedbox and torrent movies just so that I can seed them. I encode movies just to be a helpful member of the community, even if I'll never watch the movie in full. It's a hobby. If it reached the point of obsession I could see the merit of a hard stop, but I don't think I'll ever get there.
I remember reading about the kerfuffle involving Amazon and '1984' when it happened, and I was not slow to learn the lesson that people don't own digital content in the same way that they own physical content.
Therefore, when I got a kobo, I decided to load it only with those books I was happy to lose. Any books that I want to keep are still in printed copies on my bookshelf. I started buying music digitally a few years back, and every song I purchase from the Google Play Store gets immediately downloaded to my hard drive where Google can't get its grubby mitts on them. I stream movies and television via Netflix and Stan, but I know they're only rented. If I want to keep a movie or series, I buy it on DVD or Blu-ray.
Digital is temporary, and physical is permanent. That's how I treat my content. I'll use digital for stuff that's only transient or on trial or that I don't mind losing - but if I want to keep something, I'll get a physical (or at least an offline) copy.
Any books I buy for my Kobo I strip the DRM with Calibre and put them on Dropbox too. Not a perfect solution but easier than managing the backups myself. I also don't trust physical books as a long-term (i.e. on the scale of my lifetime) solution either. My parents have collections of books from the '60s–'80s and many of them aren't holding up too well, plus I've had to give away several of my own books that were too big when moving across the country. Then there's the problem of just finding a place to put everything in a small apartment.
I have a couple of physical books that are more than 100 years old, and quite a few books in the 50-100 year bracket. There are also books around which are more than a millennium old. I'll bet on paper over digital for long-term storage every time.
Having space to store the books is another matter, but I'm not worried about them surviving.
That's a good point—I've started buying some of my favourites in a higher quality physical format. I was more thinking the typical quality that a lot of mass market paperbacks have which is what a lot of the books I have are.
Anything notable?
The oldest book I have is actually 230 years old. It's a travel guide to London! It's a properly bound book, about 10cm x 8cm, and 3cm thick. It even includes fold-out maps. (It's a bit worn, though - it's had a hard life.) I bought it just for the curiosity factor of owning a book that old.
Apart from that, there's nothing notable unless you're into Australian history or Golden Age science fiction.
That's a really fun book. Hope you can keep it and walk around London with it still, maybe sorta. It is after the fire, so you got that going for you.
Pray do tell
I didn't really want to turn this into a discussion about my personal library. I was merely making the point that physical books last for decades and centuries.
(And, it turns out, I don't have that many 50+ year-old books in the Golden Age science fiction section of my library. They're mostly in the Australian history section.)
Well OK, but know I'm interested if you ever want to discuss it.
If you're interested in old books, you might like this previous discussion: "What’s the oldest book you own and how did you get it?"
Well I might make a new thread anyhow since it's been a while
That’s not as true as you present it. Physical still can get destroyed by a fire, a flood, burglars, whatever. On the other hand, DRM-free digital can be easily backed up. So for example, if you could afford to keep:
then if I was concerned about content preservation, at least for myself and my use, I would take digital over physical. While digital copies can be destroyed as easily, nothing stops you from making another one.
I wholeheartedly agree about renting digital stuff.
It’s completely true. But the digital data has a beautiful property – it can be copied ad infinitum (well, there’s the danger of making corrupted copies, but that’s a different story). If you loose a book, you loose it. If you loose a single digital copy, you restore it from a backup, and maintain the number of backups at desired number n.
In 100 hundred years the tech will be different, sure. But if we don’t have a global catastrophe, a solar flare or something else that wipes the hardware or energy grid – i.e., if the continuity of maintenance is not broken, I would not fear about not being able to access old content. If there’s a new format, there will be a transitional period, and there will be conversion tools – as long as the old format is open and documented, and unfortunately not every format is.
Books are much more robust. If you were to bury a vacuum-sealed capsule with a book and a SD card or a magnetic tape, I think that in 100 years there won’t be any equipment to decode and read the stored data, and the book would be perfectly readable. That’s valuable in itself.
It's all a matter of risk assessment - physical copies can be destroyed or burgled, but digital copies are at the whim of the corporation that owns them. Even when they are backed up to the cloud, that cloud company might cease to exist, or have some sort of catastrophic failure for any number of reasons.
All of these worst case scenarios have different chances of happening. Losing physical copies or having them destroyed in some way have relatively high rates of loss (still pretty low % per day, to be honest) whereas cloud based hosting would be very low. You choose the service that best fits your needs based on the perceived tolerable risk and the cost of said service.
Personally, I never replay old games, rewatch old movies, reread old books, or in general re-consume content (I have a very good memory) so I'm perfectly fine with whatever medium is given to me. Honestly if anything I should be selling off old consumed content that I know I'm not going to play again.
The difference is if something like Amazon decides to end a digital service, it affects EVERYONE who participated. If someone gets robbed, they don't rob everyone who ever owned a physical book. But yes, physical has its drawbacks as well. Personally I use digital media over physical, but I'm not invested in content that I don't control myself. I have a media server that stores all my movies/tv/music/ebooks and then I have backups somewhere separate.
I think you misunderstood me. I do agree that if you rent a thing in Something-as-a-Service model – a game on Steam, a movie on Netflix – you don’t control it.
But if a digital store stops selling an ebook, or goes under? I already got my stuff downloaded. Non-DRM digital (watermarks excluded, they’re best kind of DRM) is still safer than physical – in my opinion at least.
Not that I disagree with you, and this is more a technical question than anything; but what about in the far future when operating systems become defunct, or even entire file formats? Let's say you wanted to pass down your hard drive of books to your grand children, how would they read the information on it?
At the end of the day it's all binary. I can spin up a virtual machine going all the way back to Commodore 64 without any issues whatsoever, and I'm not even the barest sort of casual hobbyist in that arena. As for file formats, once you can read them you can read them - software like Calibre or its successor's successor in 100 years time has zero motivation to 'retire' any formats, basically ever.
As long as you're storing the books with open formats, future proofing shouldn't be much of an issue. It's easy enough to convert between formats, and it's going to be a very, very long time before someone releases a general purpose computer without a means of reading html documents.
I would make you a bet, but unfortunately neither of us will be around to collect on it. I would make a bet based on a collection of books or films or records that more of the physical versions would survive and still be usable in 100 years than in the equivalent collection of digital copies. In other words, I bet that, statistically, more physical books (or films or records) will last 100 years than the equivalent .epub (or .avi or .mpg) files. Books will last longer and be more likely to be readable in 2118 than .epub files.
I would happily take on the bet, if you would allow for periodic maintenance of digital copies.
No. Just let them go through a normal existence, whether that's leaving them forgotten in a room, throwing them away, handing them around, reading them frequently, whatever. I can make anything survive if I look after it. I'm talking about content enduring without special help. Books don't need periodic maintenance to survive; .epub files should survive under the same conditions.
Things are slightly different for film and records, but I'll still bet on them over their digital equivalents.
Digital can be backed up in multiple locations. Physical is one fire away from being gone.
I always told myself the day they remove my favorite shows from Netflix, the day I begin to hoard my own collection. The accessibility is just too easy right now though. We are completely disc-less in our house, so I'd have to get DRM-free digital copies or figure out a ripping solution.
What about when your favourite shows were never added to Netflix (or any other streaming service) in the first place? Lots of my fave shows aren't available for streaming anywhere.
Same. I’m into a lot of foreign shows, and they’re just not accessible to stream in most cases.
I'm thinking older shows rather than foreign shows, but it's the same problem in both cases: streaming services are weighted towards certain types of content.
When I used the Australian netflix there was fuck all on there. You just browse the front page for stuff because nothing you search will be there.
I've had uninterrupted access to anything I've wanted to see, read, or hear for the last 20 years on various places on the internet, I see no reason for that to change any time soon. I pay for Netflix and Spotify for the convenience, not the access.
I can't say the same. I have some shows/movies on DVD that have never appeared on any streaming services. But, then, I watch things which are more than 20-30 years old. I've noticed that streaming services are heavily biassed towards modern content. Older folks or people with older tastes aren't well served by streaming services. Admittedly, Spotify is more inclusive of old music than Netflix is of old shows and movies (I recently put together an "oldies" playlist). But there are plenty of old shows and movies which just aren't available online via any legal means.
I'm not talking about streaming services, I'm talking about piracy.
I thought so, but I decided to pretend I didn't know what you were talking about. It's not something I approve of.
Can you tell me how you reconcile the idea of public libraries with an aversion to media piracy?
I 100% accept there are significant problems with the entire system as it currently exists and I don't like the necessity, but I strongly believe piracy to be the lesser evil.
I'd rather not get into an argument about piracy here & now. That's why I didn't rise to the bait earlier when you implied you pirated your digital content. I've had the argument many many times here and on Reddit, and it's a bit tedious for me now. It's the same old arguments on both sides, repeated over and over and over.
And it's not like either of us is actually going to change our minds.
I bet more than a few people here have fancy NAS setups with multiple hard drives in RAID and all that. It seems pretty expensive to store your own data though. A two-bay Synology with 8 TB worth of hard drives is around $550. Although compared with Google Drive pricing (10 TB for $100 a month) it seems reasonable.
The price of streaming services is miniscule compared to those though. If storage remains this expensive then cloud-stored licensed (rather than owned) data is the only option for many.
I thought storage was supposed to get cheaper perpetually. Why isn't it?
Well, an 8 TB hard drive is actually only $200. You don't need a dedicated NAS.
The point is $200 is still two years of Netflix with thousands of titles in their catalog. It's a no-brainer for most people to pick the licensed option rather than owned, unless they are lucky enough to be able to buy the $200 drive and the content to put on it.
Even for people who can afford it, storing your data requires extra effort setting up backup solutions, ripping DVDs, figuring out how to access it on the go, etc. Many people don't even care about watching a movie or playing a game more than once. So they wouldn't care about keeping a copy.
Actually that gets me thinking, maybe the shift is happening because the digital sharing culture is in decline. Piracy seems to be shrinking as everyone pays their own way, and instead of sending a file to your friend you send them a link to cloud-hosted content instead. In the past, a reason to own something was just as much for the purpose of lending to others as for having perpetual access yourself.
You make some good points but you're forgetting to factor in the cost of internet/bandwidth. Here in Canada you're probably looking at another $1000/year to have access with caps that you wouldn't hit every month if you're using streaming services for music, movies, and tv.
You're right, it's about tradeoffs. If I avoid spending money on bandwidth, that implies I'm getting my content physically. Then either I'm storing the physical DVDs, requiring storage space which can be prohibitive; or I'm ripping the DVDs and throwing them away, which creates environmental waste. Or I'm renting and ripping, which is technically illegal but I guess that solves the cost and environmental problems if I'm not caught.
FWIW lately I have actually been storing more content myself (not that anybody could tell from my other comments in this topic), buying digital DRM-free and downloading to hard drives locally. But I fully understand why so many people don't these days, versus where it was much more common 15, 20 years ago when Internet speeds were slower and streaming wasn't a thing.
I do have an NAS setup but mainly because it’s multi-use, not merely a device to stream my media library. My whole surveillance system runs through it for example. The photos on my phone and my wife’s phone also automatically backup to it using Synology’s DS Photo app. Gotta protect the photos of my kid, and I don’t fully trust the cloud (which I also use to back them up).
I mean the math you provided in your statement proves that's not true. One time cost of $550 or paying a subscription service X dollars/month for the rest of your life. I'm not trying to say that no one should stream, but your statement reminds me of the people who say renting is cheaper than owning a home. If may be the RIGHT choice for YOU, but the math is clear.
I think you're assuming piracy where I was assuming legal content purchases. $550 gets you the storage, then you have to buy content to fill it.
Plus even with the piracy route, once you fill up your hard drives then you'll have to make additional hardware storage purchases when you run out of space. Unless you're deleting old data in which case the conversation is pointless because the topic is about keeping a digital collection long-term.
Oh yeah, I was at least assuming ripping was involved.
I think for me personally it is about having easy access to some old favorites and some niche content that isn't easily found, rather than trying to replicate or replace what can be found through streaming.
I tell you, I'm pretty annoyed with the idea that I'm losing access to several songs on my Amazon Music playlist - I built those with a purpose.
EDIT: I'll add to that there's something crappy about how all of this works. If I bought a CD or DVD, then why shouldn't I be able to play that any way I want, including ripped on my computer? But that's all going away now. Now we rent these things as a service and what we consume is never really ours, not even a copy.
Yep I totally get that. I do both streaming and buying/ripping media for much the same reasons you mentioned, niche content and older content, and for shows/movies that I do have on streaming but know I'll rewatch in the future. I'm actually probably less of a streamer than many; for example most of my music is purchased and downloaded/ripped because I have different tastes than what is generally on Spotify.
That said, my comments here have been an attempt to reflect common opinions I've heard from peers about how they don't care about anything other than streaming these days. I do personally want consumer storage to become cheaper, but at this rate it seems like demand may be falling, and the price of storage won't necessarily continue to drop.
My mindset was like that one you put forth but I've backslid a bit into preferring drm-free copies.
I can't pinpoint a turning point, but I think a number of things played into it such as advertisements in things that I already paid for such as Windows 10 and Xbox One, ads in places where they didn't used to be such as gmail and FB chat, purposely removing functionality such as the ability to play videos in YouTube and switch to other apps, the removal of the ability to add my own files to Amazon Music, and it just seems to go on and on.
Thanks for chatting - that was fun.