This is a relatively “boring” review of a relatively “boring” phone...but I think that’s the point. This is the new default phone that people should buy if they want an inexpensive phone that will...
This is a relatively “boring” review of a relatively “boring” phone...but I think that’s the point. This is the new default phone that people should buy if they want an inexpensive phone that will last them for four or five years.
Honestly, I would rather pay $400 for this than $750-$1,200 for a flagship iPhone or Android device. The amount of trade offs you need to make to save hundreds of dollars is minimal. If I was in the market for a new phone, I would seriously consider this (I upgraded to the 11 Pro last year so I’m set for the next few years).
Already got mine on pre-order -- I'm pretty indifferent to the features... I just wanted a cheapish phone that works well. Mostly came down to good timing w/ my Android breaking a few days after...
Already got mine on pre-order -- I'm pretty indifferent to the features... I just wanted a cheapish phone that works well. Mostly came down to good timing w/ my Android breaking a few days after the announcement, but I'm OK with a 400$ phone if it rids me of another avenue of Google surveillance in my life. (Thanks to everyone over here for convincing me!).
Not that I'm an expert but I think if you want privacy, Apple is better but its not the answer. There are some alternatives in the market right now but they are probably not consumer ready (they...
Not that I'm an expert but I think if you want privacy, Apple is better but its not the answer. There are some alternatives in the market right now but they are probably not consumer ready (they all involve modifying Android phones and relying on small altruistic teams).
400$ for a phone also seems really expensive for me. I bought a used Samsung Galaxy S4 for 60€ a few months ago and its alright. I installed LineageOS for MicroG as an OS and apart from no GPS (a medium sized problem for me) and a few quirks here and there it works fine. I use my phone mostly as a notebook/calendar/alarm, things like that.
If I had to buy a "new" phone now I would probably buy something supported by GrapheneOS. It seems more secure and reliable, and equally privacy-riendly as my current set-up. For people who are not comfortable installing OSs on their phones, maybe check out the /e foundation, go for a cheap Android One phone or ultimately go for an iPhone as last resort (its way too expensive closed-sourced).
That's because it's a 7 year old phone. It cost $650 when it came out in 2013. How is an Android One phone more friendly than an iPhone? Google collects tons of data about you and doesn't give you...
400$ for a phone also seems really expensive for me. I bought a used Samsung Galaxy S4 for 60€ a few months ago and its alright.
That's because it's a 7 year old phone. It cost $650 when it came out in 2013.
[...] maybe check out the /e foundation, go for a cheap Android One phone or ultimately go for an iPhone as last resort (its way too expensive closed-sourced).
How is an Android One phone more friendly than an iPhone? Google collects tons of data about you and doesn't give you an easy way to disable a lot of it. I'm not saying Apple is perfect. I've been critical of them here in the past, but Google is way worse.
The fact that it is a 7yo phone is mute if it does everything I need. I don't know if a Google One device is friendlier than an Apple one. But it surely is cheaper and more open source. No matter...
The fact that it is a 7yo phone is mute if it does everything I need.
I don't know if a Google One device is friendlier than an Apple one. But it surely is cheaper and more open source. No matter what Apple says, you have no idea what goes on inside their devices. Plus Apple is part of Prism. Does that inspire confidence? No.
These arguments are mostly nonsensical. A 7 year old device? All well and fine, use whatever suits your needs the best—in fact, it's laudable to use devices of that age to maximise their value...
These arguments are mostly nonsensical. A 7 year old device? All well and fine, use whatever suits your needs the best—in fact, it's laudable to use devices of that age to maximise their value before they're eventually sent to the rubbish pile for young Bangladeshi children to sort through for scrap.
But this?
and more open source.
Android is poisoned open source. The bits that matter on an Android device are Google owned and most certainly proprietary. Now sure, you can install your own distribution/flavour, or whatever you prefer, but "more open source" is a poor argument. The Google Search app is proprietary, as is Google Calendar, Google Photos, Gmail, the always-listening Google assistant. In fact, the majority of features that consumers use on an Android device are in fact, distinctly not open source. Why? Because Google offers these features to consumers for free so they can use metadata about your interactions, your photos, your emails, your searches, and your location to sell to advertisers. When you buy the $400 iPhone SE, you're mostly paying for hardware. Apple's model is simple—exchange money for a product. Done.
you have no idea what goes on inside their devices
Believe it or not, we do. Apple publishes tremendous amounts of security detail and documentation about the principles and practices that underline their devices. Take a look. Here's a security overview of the T2 chip running in macOS devices, here's another discussing how FaceID is implemented and secured, how about an overall platform security guide? Apple publish these regularly. Sure, I have no idea what goes on inside the hardware at the transistor level—but the same is true for any Android phone too. Have you, yourself, guaranteed the correctness of the Qualcomm processor, the Broadcom modems? How do you know data exfiltration is not taking place? Even Purism couldn't pull this off—they ended up with a half-baked phone with several still-proprietary components inside.
Phones are too complicated for anything to be diluted down to "open source" vs "closed source". It's about the whole picture, the supply chain, the ethics of the company, the fundamental security principles and assumptions present, the selection of hardware, the goals of the company producing the phone. "Open source" is a meaningless argument.
Plus Apple is part of Prism. Does that inspire confidence? No.
Google is also a big participator in PRISM. Compliance with government requests within the jurisdiction they operate is par for the course in the 21st century—that's an issue that's best dealt with politically. Apple has made significant effort to refuse law enforcement requests where they have been able to do so—including but not limited to the very high profile San Bernardino terrorist attack, and the Pensacola shooter.
Quick point of clarification, but that isn't Google's model either. They have never sold your data to advertisers - especially something so sensitive as location data. Instead Google acts as the...
Why? Because Google offers these features to consumers for free so they can use metadata about your interactions, your photos, your emails, your searches, and your location to sell to advertisers.
Quick point of clarification, but that isn't Google's model either. They have never sold your data to advertisers - especially something so sensitive as location data. Instead Google acts as the advertiser themselves. They charge customers via AdSense or AdWords who then come up with ads to promote. Those ads then run through an instantaneous auction system on each impression to reach their audience (us). Google's accumulated data is used for interest-based targeting to increase clickthrough, assuming you've opted in to personalized ads.
If Google sold data to other advertisers it would not only be against their privacy policy, but it would also destroy their biggest competitive advantage (being able to more-efficiently serve ads to interested parties). It wouldn't make a lot of sense.
I feel it's important to clear up this misunderstanding because people seem to really have the wrong idea about how ads actually work online.
Fair points, thanks for clarifying. It's true that for the most part Google does not directly hand over customer data to third parties. Without appearing like I'm shifting goal posts, I will say...
Fair points, thanks for clarifying. It's true that for the most part Google does not directly hand over customer data to third parties. Without appearing like I'm shifting goal posts, I will say that all that is very true, but the end goal is still the same, to target you with advertising; which a lot of people don't like—the net effect is Google is incentivised to collect information about you.
Additionally, there's indirect ways using a Google platform can result in your data being mis-handled and get into the hands of other companies. For example, the play store and other sources of applications are less vetted than the App Store review process, and additionally the controls and permissions settings on Android have leaky abstractions which make it more trivial than on iOS to request significant access/control over the device.
I do appreciate the clarification though on the actual process of ad bidding. No data is actually changing hands and I should've made that clear.
I write posts so that I can learn, and you are helping me. Thank you. I completely agree with you about all of Google's apps. And that is why I either don't use them/have them installed or I try...
I write posts so that I can learn, and you are helping me. Thank you.
Android is poisoned open source. The bits that matter on an Android device are Google owned and most certainly proprietary. Now sure, you can install your own distribution/flavour, or whatever you prefer, but "more open source" is a poor argument. The Google Search app is proprietary, as is Google Calendar, Google Photos, Gmail, the always-listening Google assistant. In fact, the majority of features that consumers use on an Android device are in fact, distinctly not open source. Why? Because Google offers these features to consumers for free so they can use metadata about your interactions, your photos, your emails, your searches, and your location to sell to advertisers. When you buy the $400 iPhone SE, you're mostly paying for hardware. Apple's model is simple—exchange money for a product. Done.
I completely agree with you about all of Google's apps. And that is why I either don't use them/have them installed or I try alternatives (lbry vs Youtube or Tildes vs Reddit for an example outside Google). I just don't think you can assert that Apple's model is just exchange of money for hardware. You don't know.
Believe it or not, we do. Apple publishes tremendous amounts of security detail and documentation about the principles and practices that underline their devices. Take a look. Here's a security overview of the T2 chip running in macOS devices, here's another discussing how FaceID is implemented and secured, how about an overall platform security guide? Apple publish these regularly.
Ok so we know about some of Apple's security. Does that tell you everything that goes on inside each one of their apps? I don't think so. Your argument is ultimately, I'm sorry to say, based on faith. Yeah maybe you are convincing me that a regular iPhone is better than a regular Android. But personally I would prefer even better. I see some alternatives popping up in the market and I hope over time there is a TRUE alternative. Right now we have to accept a low or obscure degree of privacy unfortunately.
Google is also a big participator in PRISM. Compliance with government requests within the jurisdiction they operate is par for the course in the 21st century—that's an issue that's best dealt with politically. Apple has made significant effort to refuse law enforcement requests where they have been able to do so—including but not limited to the very high profile San Bernardino terrorist attack, and the Pensacola shooter.
You are correct. But with an Android phone, I can install another O. With an iPhone I can't.
Ultimately there is something that I bothers me and I see it some times in privacy related subreddits and also here on Tildes: people buying an iPhone and thinking it's all great. "Now I can rest that my data is respected and I don't have to deal with evil Google. The iPhone is the answer to the privacy issues". It's not. You are trading no privacy for obscurity.
Yeah. If you can de-google, that's a good thing. Unfortunately, I would wager for 99%+ of consumers, that's impossible for them to do because they either don't know about AOSP and similar things,...
I completely agree with you about all of Google's apps. And that is why I either don't use them/have them installed or I try alternatives (lbry vs Youtube or Tildes vs Reddit for an example outside Google). I just don't think you can assert that Apple's model is just exchange of money for hardware. You don't know.
Yeah. If you can de-google, that's a good thing. Unfortunately, I would wager for 99%+ of consumers, that's impossible for them to do because they either don't know about AOSP and similar things, or they don't have the technical nous to do so, or they're worried about voiding warranties/breaking things.
I would honestly say Apple's model is pretty transparent. Hell, one only needs to look at their financials to see they're extremely incentivised to sell you expensive devices. Once the device is sold, their revenue stream from the device user is basically zero. Services make up a small—but growing—portion of Apple's revenue. What services Apple does have appear to have a major focus on ensuring user privacy, at least from the documentation I've read.
"Now I can rest that my data is respected and I don't have to deal with evil Google. The iPhone is the answer to the privacy issues". It's not. You are trading no privacy for obscurity.
Usually Apple fans/zealots (me!) focus on the holistic benefit of the device. Yeah, is this as private as say, the Purism phone? Probably not. But there's a good balance struck between privacy, usability, and QoL on the platform. At the end of the day one of these big companies makes the majority of their money from advertising, and the other makes the majority of their money from hardware. From that, there's a strong inference about which company is more focused on collecting information from you.
To be fair, you don’t really know what’s going on in an Android phone either, give that the large majority of the code in Google Play Services (which provides Android with a lot of essential...
To be fair, you don’t really know what’s going on in an Android phone either, give that the large majority of the code in Google Play Services (which provides Android with a lot of essential features and is required to do pretty much anything useful with Android) is closed source.
And that is why in my suggestion list, an unmodified Android is close to the bottom. I personally use LineageOS for MicroG, barely any Google software on it. But If I had to buy a "new" phone...
And that is why in my suggestion list, an unmodified Android is close to the bottom. I personally use LineageOS for MicroG, barely any Google software on it. But If I had to buy a "new" phone today I would probably get something compatible with GrapheneOS as I feel that is the more robust option right now if you want privacy and security in your device (I could be wrong).
There are plenty of initiatives going on to bring us a good privacy friendly phone. It's just that most or all of them are still not reliable and consumer-friendly enough.
That’s the real problem. 99.9% of people have absolutely no interest in modifying the software that comes on their phone. Even if there was a one click program that they could run that would...
It's just that most or all of them are still not reliable and consumer-friendly enough.
That’s the real problem. 99.9% of people have absolutely no interest in modifying the software that comes on their phone. Even if there was a one click program that they could run that would replace Google’s Android with Lineage or another privacy focused version, most people wouldn’t bother.
It’s not a viable option for most people. The choice for most normal people is Android or iOS, unfortunately. Neither is perfect.
100% agreed, but I code all day... I really just don't want to play the "tinker with my phone" game in my very small amount of free time.
Not that I'm an expert but I think if you want privacy, Apple is better but its not the answer. There are some alternatives in the market right now but they are probably not consumer ready (they all involve modifying Android phones and relying on small altruistic teams).
100% agreed, but I code all day... I really just don't want to play the "tinker with my phone" game in my very small amount of free time.
I don't think so. It's a little more than a dollar a day for a year. For something that most people spend hours a day on and is the core communication device, I think it's a bargain. I honestly...
400$ for a phone also seems really expensive for me.
I don't think so. It's a little more than a dollar a day for a year. For something that most people spend hours a day on and is the core communication device, I think it's a bargain.
I honestly recommend iOS and Apple if security and privacy is a focus. They have doubled down on the marketing, sales, and engineering on this point, so I feel my personal interest is aligned with the direction Apple is going. At the end of the day, Android is a product of Google and their core business is advertisement with all the latest in tracking users and their devices. As you've mentioned, the android alternatives aren't consumer friendly and, imo, rooting a phone just trades one set of security risk (closed source) for another set (limited dev resources). I also think the ideal smartphone that is safe and secure needs to be a concerted effort between hardware and software. So, getting the cheapest android phone out there and plopping a dev OS seems to defeat that.
How we evaluate the price is obviously subjective. I am the kind of person who wants go maximize the value I get from my money (because money is essentially time).
How we evaluate the price is obviously subjective. I am the kind of person who wants go maximize the value I get from my money (because money is essentially time).
Looks good. As someone currently owning a last-gen iPhone SE, I'm considering it. But it's remarkable how uninteresting this is. I made a pros/cons list: Pros: Slightly better photo quality Chip...
Looks good. As someone currently owning a last-gen iPhone SE, I'm considering it. But it's remarkable how uninteresting this is. I made a pros/cons list:
Pros:
Slightly better photo quality
Chip will be supported for longer
Cons:
Larger
No headphone jack
That's... it. That is all. I'd say "faster" next to the chip, but it doesn't matter, my old iPhone SE never feels slow, what do I care if some app loads in .3 seconds or .1, it's perceptively instantaneous, it mostly loads during the (super quick) popup animation.
Ultimately, I don't think the pros outweight the cons and that's crazy. Like, 4 years was the distance between the OG iPhone and the 4S. Smartphones are so boring now, I love it. I don't want to think about them, anymore, and it looks like I don't have to.
My household has 2 people who have iPhone SEs (and my mom has one as well) and we're not going to upgrade them, unless one of the iPhones breaks. Like you said - it's not exciting but I am happy...
My household has 2 people who have iPhone SEs (and my mom has one as well) and we're not going to upgrade them, unless one of the iPhones breaks. Like you said - it's not exciting but I am happy that they're there as replacements for when they're needed. This is a good "staple" phone, and I like being able to recommend it to people when they ask. I do wish that the screen was smaller though. Everyone seems to be on "make big screens" but for many people, smaller screens are better. My wife (and daughter both) have relatively small hands and big phones aren't particularly useful for her, and all her pockets are tiny (if they even exist) so a smaller phone is better.
I'm recommending the SE for everyone who "wants a smartphone" but doesn't know what to look for. My parents have one and do very well with it (first smartphone). May aunt has one. It's just neat....
I'm recommending the SE for everyone who "wants a smartphone" but doesn't know what to look for. My parents have one and do very well with it (first smartphone). May aunt has one. It's just neat. It's inexpensive but has the expensive parts that are relevant. It's so small it never gets in your way and you can use it comfortably one-handed. Everything is snappy and it (until now) runs the latest iOS. I don't remember why I upgraded the last two versions, so I might as well stay 2 or 3 versions behind until major apps break should that ever become necessary. Apps got faster in the last few iOS updates, which makes a lot of sense but is something you have to point out, nowadays.
This thing is looking like a 7 year device, comfortably. Show me the Android phone that does this.
Got an SE as well and l don't want anything else until they release a small phone, then maybe l'll consider it. If this one breaks l'll probably fix it 27 times before l'll source a new, 2nd hand...
Got an SE as well and l don't want anything else until they release a small phone, then maybe l'll consider it.
If this one breaks l'll probably fix it 27 times before l'll source a new, 2nd hand first-gen SE.
huh, I have a 6S+, the same hardware that powers your SE and I definitely feel it being slow a lot. This is especially bad with health data (I own an Apple Watch, so there are a lot of heart rate...
my old iPhone SE never feels slow
huh, I have a 6S+, the same hardware that powers your SE and I definitely feel it being slow a lot. This is especially bad with health data (I own an Apple Watch, so there are a lot of heart rate data points), loading the Training tab in the Activity app usually takes over a full minute. It's also blatantly obvious with poorly written apps based on some cross platform framework or lots of Javascript where frequently not even typing is smooth. But I'm also pretty sensitive to this kind of stuff, so if it's good enough for you that's great!
Hmm, I definitely have no apps that are even close to that. Things like Calendar open in less than a second, I don't notice loading. I just tried force-closing Instagram and restart it and it took...
loading the Training tab in the Activity app usually takes over a full minute.
Hmm, I definitely have no apps that are even close to that. Things like Calendar open in less than a second, I don't notice loading. I just tried force-closing Instagram and restart it and it took ~2 seconds to being fully usable. That 2 second loading time is pretty much my worst case scenario among any app I use, that's loading from scratch, if it was running in the background it just switches over instantly.
I'm not trying to worship Apple here, I'm saying all of this out of surprise since using my old iPhone 4 became an absolutely miserable experience after (regretfully!) updating to iOS 7, things would suddenly load for 10+ seconds. I also remember the 1+2+3=24 calculator bug (or UI fail). But in the past few years I have zero performance complaints on iOS.
Interesting, you mean like harddisk space? I did invest in a 128GB model so I no longer have to worry about storage space, it's blissful. Never even considered it could affect performance!
Interesting, you mean like harddisk space? I did invest in a 128GB model so I no longer have to worry about storage space, it's blissful. Never even considered it could affect performance!
Yeah, pretty much all of my performance issues are anything that accesses HealthKit, most other apps are fine. iOS 13 also seems fairly happy to kill stuff in the background, needing to fully...
Yeah, pretty much all of my performance issues are anything that accesses HealthKit, most other apps are fine. iOS 13 also seems fairly happy to kill stuff in the background, needing to fully reload apps failry quickly again. Right now it's usable for me, but not much beyond that.
I had an iPhone 4 back then too, I remember iOS 7 all to well!
The major con from the spec sheet is that the battery is really small. Maybe the smaller screen will compensate, but it's like significantly smaller than flagship phone batteries.
The major con from the spec sheet is that the battery is really small. Maybe the smaller screen will compensate, but it's like significantly smaller than flagship phone batteries.
iPhones usually have pretty good power efficiency, iOS is really good at being aggressive in killing apps which use too many system resources, and the A13 CPU should sip power when it's not doing...
iPhones usually have pretty good power efficiency, iOS is really good at being aggressive in killing apps which use too many system resources, and the A13 CPU should sip power when it's not doing anything of consequence.
This is kind of why I prefer to ignore RAM/battery capacity on smartphone spec sheets—I prefer result-based specifications to technically-based ones. It's not the capacity that matters, it's how long it lasts. Apple claims 13 hours of video playback, 8 hours if that's streaming; which is on par with flagships, so that's pretty good.
I'm always baffled how RAM is ignored in reviews, though. It makes so much sense for a smartphone. You use maybe 5 apps frequently and you don't want to restart them all the time, you want them to...
I'm always baffled how RAM is ignored in reviews, though. It makes so much sense for a smartphone. You use maybe 5 apps frequently and you don't want to restart them all the time, you want them to stay in RAM.
A great default option. Nothing stands out and nothing really lacks. It may still not be cheap, but it's way cheaper than most flagships. Phones have become increasingly boring and it's great.
A great default option. Nothing stands out and nothing really lacks. It may still not be cheap, but it's way cheaper than most flagships.
Phones have become increasingly boring and it's great.
I think $400 for what is many people's primary computer, that they use dozens (if not hundreds) of times per day and will last 4-5 years (and still have the latest security updates) is a great...
I think $400 for what is many people's primary computer, that they use dozens (if not hundreds) of times per day and will last 4-5 years (and still have the latest security updates) is a great value.
Of course, I say that as a middle-class American, so our judgement of the relative value might differ.
I definitely agree. The long term benefits should weigh heavily, especially given that Android is still lagging in that regard. By "not cheap", I meant the following: the iPhone SE costs €490. A...
I definitely agree. The long term benefits should weigh heavily, especially given that Android is still lagging in that regard.
By "not cheap", I meant the following:
the iPhone SE costs €490.
A Galaxy A50 is €290, an A40 is €200.
A Xiaomi Mi 9T costs €320.
(Prices are in Europe).
I didn't do research, but these are well reviewed phones that have pretty good specifications. The prices are in a very different class though. In that sense, I'd still consider an SE very close to the high-end/flagship range, purely because of the price.
I guess the way I look at it is a $400 iPhone that will last four years equals out to the same price as a Galaxy A50 or Mi 9 that I have to replace in 2 years with another $200 phone because it’s...
I guess the way I look at it is a $400 iPhone that will last four years equals out to the same price as a Galaxy A50 or Mi 9 that I have to replace in 2 years with another $200 phone because it’s slow and not receiving security patches.
Easy math: $400 amortised over an assumed 5 year software support window for the iPhone SE 2nd generation amounts to a measly 22 cents per day. It's quite incredible to me that it's even possible.
Easy math: $400 amortised over an assumed 5 year software support window for the iPhone SE 2nd generation amounts to a measly 22 cents per day. It's quite incredible to me that it's even possible.
I was watching a random episode of The Computer Chronicles from 1987 about networking and they were talking about computers that cost $5,000+ dollars. It's crazy that we can get a computer that is...
I was watching a random episode of The Computer Chronicles from 1987 about networking and they were talking about computers that cost $5,000+ dollars. It's crazy that we can get a computer that is tens of thousands of times faster than that for a mere $400.
I'd be interested in replacing my device (a Nexus 7 2013). I really have no qualms about Android or iOS anymore; both seem to solve 99% of problems without requiring jailbreaking. My biggest issue...
I'd be interested in replacing my device (a Nexus 7 2013). I really have no qualms about Android or iOS anymore; both seem to solve 99% of problems without requiring jailbreaking. My biggest issue with switching now is the ecosystem. I've been through a few.
I owned an early iPod Touch, and bought a bunch of stuff on Installer/Cydia. I was amazed at simple labyrinth puzzles or falling sand games.
Later the App Store was released and I started picking up my apps there. RSS readers, podcasting, etc.
Eventually I bought an Android tablet, once again having to start from scratch. In some cases I rebought apps I liked on Apple, other times finding new ones.
Now it's been some years, so I'm sure all the old apps I bought on Apple are no longer supported. That's understandable. But essentially to switch devices I'd be restarting the ecosystem again.
It's tough to justify. The biggest reason to upgrade is probably gaming. But frankly, mobile gaming is such a train wreck right now that it's probably just not worth it. It's just a shame that for all the advances in device capabilities, we've limited ourselves to producing thousands of new gacha games.
I’ve bounced back and forth between Google and Apple a few times over the years. Thankfully there aren’t too many apps these days that are platform exclusive. I can count on one hand the number of...
I’ve bounced back and forth between Google and Apple a few times over the years. Thankfully there aren’t too many apps these days that are platform exclusive. I can count on one hand the number of apps that I use that aren’t available on both platforms (not counting apps that just aren’t possible on the other platform, obviously).
Each time I switch, I’ve had a few years of apps built up on one platform that I don’t own on the other. Usually it’s $15-$30 to catch up, since mobile apps are so inexpensive. Add that up over seven years and I suppose that could be a major expense.
If you’re interested in mobile gaming, maybe check out Apple Arcade? It’s subscription, but all of the games are ad and in-app purchase free. I signed up for the free trial a few months ago and I ended up keeping it since there are a lot of good games there and they’re not constantly bugging me to buy more coins or watch an ad to get another life.
This is a relatively “boring” review of a relatively “boring” phone...but I think that’s the point. This is the new default phone that people should buy if they want an inexpensive phone that will last them for four or five years.
Honestly, I would rather pay $400 for this than $750-$1,200 for a flagship iPhone or Android device. The amount of trade offs you need to make to save hundreds of dollars is minimal. If I was in the market for a new phone, I would seriously consider this (I upgraded to the 11 Pro last year so I’m set for the next few years).
Already got mine on pre-order -- I'm pretty indifferent to the features... I just wanted a cheapish phone that works well. Mostly came down to good timing w/ my Android breaking a few days after the announcement, but I'm OK with a 400$ phone if it rids me of another avenue of Google surveillance in my life. (Thanks to everyone over here for convincing me!).
Not that I'm an expert but I think if you want privacy, Apple is better but its not the answer. There are some alternatives in the market right now but they are probably not consumer ready (they all involve modifying Android phones and relying on small altruistic teams).
400$ for a phone also seems really expensive for me. I bought a used Samsung Galaxy S4 for 60€ a few months ago and its alright. I installed LineageOS for MicroG as an OS and apart from no GPS (a medium sized problem for me) and a few quirks here and there it works fine. I use my phone mostly as a notebook/calendar/alarm, things like that.
If I had to buy a "new" phone now I would probably buy something supported by GrapheneOS. It seems more secure and reliable, and equally privacy-riendly as my current set-up. For people who are not comfortable installing OSs on their phones, maybe check out the /e foundation, go for a cheap Android One phone or ultimately go for an iPhone as last resort (its way too expensive closed-sourced).
That's because it's a 7 year old phone. It cost $650 when it came out in 2013.
How is an Android One phone more friendly than an iPhone? Google collects tons of data about you and doesn't give you an easy way to disable a lot of it. I'm not saying Apple is perfect. I've been critical of them here in the past, but Google is way worse.
The fact that it is a 7yo phone is mute if it does everything I need.
I don't know if a Google One device is friendlier than an Apple one. But it surely is cheaper and more open source. No matter what Apple says, you have no idea what goes on inside their devices. Plus Apple is part of Prism. Does that inspire confidence? No.
These arguments are mostly nonsensical. A 7 year old device? All well and fine, use whatever suits your needs the best—in fact, it's laudable to use devices of that age to maximise their value before they're eventually sent to the rubbish pile for young Bangladeshi children to sort through for scrap.
But this?
Android is poisoned open source. The bits that matter on an Android device are Google owned and most certainly proprietary. Now sure, you can install your own distribution/flavour, or whatever you prefer, but "more open source" is a poor argument. The Google Search app is proprietary, as is Google Calendar, Google Photos, Gmail, the always-listening Google assistant. In fact, the majority of features that consumers use on an Android device are in fact, distinctly not open source. Why? Because Google offers these features to consumers for free so they can use metadata about your interactions, your photos, your emails, your searches, and your location to sell to advertisers. When you buy the $400 iPhone SE, you're mostly paying for hardware. Apple's model is simple—exchange money for a product. Done.
Believe it or not, we do. Apple publishes tremendous amounts of security detail and documentation about the principles and practices that underline their devices. Take a look. Here's a security overview of the T2 chip running in macOS devices, here's another discussing how FaceID is implemented and secured, how about an overall platform security guide? Apple publish these regularly. Sure, I have no idea what goes on inside the hardware at the transistor level—but the same is true for any Android phone too. Have you, yourself, guaranteed the correctness of the Qualcomm processor, the Broadcom modems? How do you know data exfiltration is not taking place? Even Purism couldn't pull this off—they ended up with a half-baked phone with several still-proprietary components inside.
Phones are too complicated for anything to be diluted down to "open source" vs "closed source". It's about the whole picture, the supply chain, the ethics of the company, the fundamental security principles and assumptions present, the selection of hardware, the goals of the company producing the phone. "Open source" is a meaningless argument.
Google is also a big participator in PRISM. Compliance with government requests within the jurisdiction they operate is par for the course in the 21st century—that's an issue that's best dealt with politically. Apple has made significant effort to refuse law enforcement requests where they have been able to do so—including but not limited to the very high profile San Bernardino terrorist attack, and the Pensacola shooter.
Quick point of clarification, but that isn't Google's model either. They have never sold your data to advertisers - especially something so sensitive as location data. Instead Google acts as the advertiser themselves. They charge customers via AdSense or AdWords who then come up with ads to promote. Those ads then run through an instantaneous auction system on each impression to reach their audience (us). Google's accumulated data is used for interest-based targeting to increase clickthrough, assuming you've opted in to personalized ads.
If Google sold data to other advertisers it would not only be against their privacy policy, but it would also destroy their biggest competitive advantage (being able to more-efficiently serve ads to interested parties). It wouldn't make a lot of sense.
I feel it's important to clear up this misunderstanding because people seem to really have the wrong idea about how ads actually work online.
Fair points, thanks for clarifying. It's true that for the most part Google does not directly hand over customer data to third parties. Without appearing like I'm shifting goal posts, I will say that all that is very true, but the end goal is still the same, to target you with advertising; which a lot of people don't like—the net effect is Google is incentivised to collect information about you.
Additionally, there's indirect ways using a Google platform can result in your data being mis-handled and get into the hands of other companies. For example, the play store and other sources of applications are less vetted than the App Store review process, and additionally the controls and permissions settings on Android have leaky abstractions which make it more trivial than on iOS to request significant access/control over the device.
I do appreciate the clarification though on the actual process of ad bidding. No data is actually changing hands and I should've made that clear.
And I appreciate your more-than-amicable response!
I write posts so that I can learn, and you are helping me. Thank you.
I completely agree with you about all of Google's apps. And that is why I either don't use them/have them installed or I try alternatives (lbry vs Youtube or Tildes vs Reddit for an example outside Google). I just don't think you can assert that Apple's model is just exchange of money for hardware. You don't know.
Ok so we know about some of Apple's security. Does that tell you everything that goes on inside each one of their apps? I don't think so. Your argument is ultimately, I'm sorry to say, based on faith. Yeah maybe you are convincing me that a regular iPhone is better than a regular Android. But personally I would prefer even better. I see some alternatives popping up in the market and I hope over time there is a TRUE alternative. Right now we have to accept a low or obscure degree of privacy unfortunately.
You are correct. But with an Android phone, I can install another O. With an iPhone I can't.
Ultimately there is something that I bothers me and I see it some times in privacy related subreddits and also here on Tildes: people buying an iPhone and thinking it's all great. "Now I can rest that my data is respected and I don't have to deal with evil Google. The iPhone is the answer to the privacy issues". It's not. You are trading no privacy for obscurity.
Yeah. If you can de-google, that's a good thing. Unfortunately, I would wager for 99%+ of consumers, that's impossible for them to do because they either don't know about AOSP and similar things, or they don't have the technical nous to do so, or they're worried about voiding warranties/breaking things.
I would honestly say Apple's model is pretty transparent. Hell, one only needs to look at their financials to see they're extremely incentivised to sell you expensive devices. Once the device is sold, their revenue stream from the device user is basically zero. Services make up a small—but growing—portion of Apple's revenue. What services Apple does have appear to have a major focus on ensuring user privacy, at least from the documentation I've read.
Usually Apple fans/zealots (me!) focus on the holistic benefit of the device. Yeah, is this as private as say, the Purism phone? Probably not. But there's a good balance struck between privacy, usability, and QoL on the platform. At the end of the day one of these big companies makes the majority of their money from advertising, and the other makes the majority of their money from hardware. From that, there's a strong inference about which company is more focused on collecting information from you.
To be fair, you don’t really know what’s going on in an Android phone either, give that the large majority of the code in Google Play Services (which provides Android with a lot of essential features and is required to do pretty much anything useful with Android) is closed source.
And that is why in my suggestion list, an unmodified Android is close to the bottom. I personally use LineageOS for MicroG, barely any Google software on it. But If I had to buy a "new" phone today I would probably get something compatible with GrapheneOS as I feel that is the more robust option right now if you want privacy and security in your device (I could be wrong).
There are plenty of initiatives going on to bring us a good privacy friendly phone. It's just that most or all of them are still not reliable and consumer-friendly enough.
That’s the real problem. 99.9% of people have absolutely no interest in modifying the software that comes on their phone. Even if there was a one click program that they could run that would replace Google’s Android with Lineage or another privacy focused version, most people wouldn’t bother.
It’s not a viable option for most people. The choice for most normal people is Android or iOS, unfortunately. Neither is perfect.
100% agreed, but I code all day... I really just don't want to play the "tinker with my phone" game in my very small amount of free time.
The version of Lineage I'm using get's security updates once per month. But I think ill go with GOS for my next phone.
I don't think so. It's a little more than a dollar a day for a year. For something that most people spend hours a day on and is the core communication device, I think it's a bargain.
I honestly recommend iOS and Apple if security and privacy is a focus. They have doubled down on the marketing, sales, and engineering on this point, so I feel my personal interest is aligned with the direction Apple is going. At the end of the day, Android is a product of Google and their core business is advertisement with all the latest in tracking users and their devices. As you've mentioned, the android alternatives aren't consumer friendly and, imo, rooting a phone just trades one set of security risk (closed source) for another set (limited dev resources). I also think the ideal smartphone that is safe and secure needs to be a concerted effort between hardware and software. So, getting the cheapest android phone out there and plopping a dev OS seems to defeat that.
How we evaluate the price is obviously subjective. I am the kind of person who wants go maximize the value I get from my money (because money is essentially time).
I look forward to your text message bubbles turning blue.
What phone did you upgrade from? Just curious.
I had a Pixel 4XL (got it on sale for a good price) and ended up selling it so I could switch back to iOS.
The Pixel 3a came out in 2019. The iPhone SE has essentially the same design as the 6, which came out in 2014.
I don't think Google necessarily ripped off the design - I think it's just the logical place for a phone design to end up.
Looks good. As someone currently owning a last-gen iPhone SE, I'm considering it. But it's remarkable how uninteresting this is. I made a pros/cons list:
Pros:
Cons:
That's... it. That is all. I'd say "faster" next to the chip, but it doesn't matter, my old iPhone SE never feels slow, what do I care if some app loads in .3 seconds or .1, it's perceptively instantaneous, it mostly loads during the (super quick) popup animation.
Ultimately, I don't think the pros outweight the cons and that's crazy. Like, 4 years was the distance between the OG iPhone and the 4S. Smartphones are so boring now, I love it. I don't want to think about them, anymore, and it looks like I don't have to.
My household has 2 people who have iPhone SEs (and my mom has one as well) and we're not going to upgrade them, unless one of the iPhones breaks. Like you said - it's not exciting but I am happy that they're there as replacements for when they're needed. This is a good "staple" phone, and I like being able to recommend it to people when they ask. I do wish that the screen was smaller though. Everyone seems to be on "make big screens" but for many people, smaller screens are better. My wife (and daughter both) have relatively small hands and big phones aren't particularly useful for her, and all her pockets are tiny (if they even exist) so a smaller phone is better.
I'm recommending the SE for everyone who "wants a smartphone" but doesn't know what to look for. My parents have one and do very well with it (first smartphone). May aunt has one. It's just neat. It's inexpensive but has the expensive parts that are relevant. It's so small it never gets in your way and you can use it comfortably one-handed. Everything is snappy and it (until now) runs the latest iOS. I don't remember why I upgraded the last two versions, so I might as well stay 2 or 3 versions behind until major apps break should that ever become necessary. Apps got faster in the last few iOS updates, which makes a lot of sense but is something you have to point out, nowadays.
This thing is looking like a 7 year device, comfortably. Show me the Android phone that does this.
Got an SE as well and l don't want anything else until they release a small phone, then maybe l'll consider it.
If this one breaks l'll probably fix it 27 times before l'll source a new, 2nd hand first-gen SE.
huh, I have a 6S+, the same hardware that powers your SE and I definitely feel it being slow a lot. This is especially bad with health data (I own an Apple Watch, so there are a lot of heart rate data points), loading the
Trainingtab in the Activity app usually takes over a full minute. It's also blatantly obvious with poorly written apps based on some cross platform framework or lots of Javascript where frequently not even typing is smooth. But I'm also pretty sensitive to this kind of stuff, so if it's good enough for you that's great!Hmm, I definitely have no apps that are even close to that. Things like Calendar open in less than a second, I don't notice loading. I just tried force-closing Instagram and restart it and it took ~2 seconds to being fully usable. That 2 second loading time is pretty much my worst case scenario among any app I use, that's loading from scratch, if it was running in the background it just switches over instantly.
I'm not trying to worship Apple here, I'm saying all of this out of surprise since using my old iPhone 4 became an absolutely miserable experience after (regretfully!) updating to iOS 7, things would suddenly load for 10+ seconds. I also remember the 1+2+3=24 calculator bug (or UI fail). But in the past few years I have zero performance complaints on iOS.
Heavily depends on your phone capacity. Having low space definitely makes things worse. I have a 6S+ and it starts to choke when full.
Interesting, you mean like harddisk space? I did invest in a 128GB model so I no longer have to worry about storage space, it's blissful. Never even considered it could affect performance!
Yup, storage space. I tend to spring for the bigger ones now just because of how much it helps with decide longevity.
Yeah, pretty much all of my performance issues are anything that accesses HealthKit, most other apps are fine. iOS 13 also seems fairly happy to kill stuff in the background, needing to fully reload apps failry quickly again. Right now it's usable for me, but not much beyond that.
I had an iPhone 4 back then too, I remember iOS 7 all to well!
The major con from the spec sheet is that the battery is really small. Maybe the smaller screen will compensate, but it's like significantly smaller than flagship phone batteries.
iPhones usually have pretty good power efficiency, iOS is really good at being aggressive in killing apps which use too many system resources, and the A13 CPU should sip power when it's not doing anything of consequence.
This is kind of why I prefer to ignore RAM/battery capacity on smartphone spec sheets—I prefer result-based specifications to technically-based ones. It's not the capacity that matters, it's how long it lasts. Apple claims 13 hours of video playback, 8 hours if that's streaming; which is on par with flagships, so that's pretty good.
I'm always baffled how RAM is ignored in reviews, though. It makes so much sense for a smartphone. You use maybe 5 apps frequently and you don't want to restart them all the time, you want them to stay in RAM.
A great default option. Nothing stands out and nothing really lacks. It may still not be cheap, but it's way cheaper than most flagships.
Phones have become increasingly boring and it's great.
I think $400 for what is many people's primary computer, that they use dozens (if not hundreds) of times per day and will last 4-5 years (and still have the latest security updates) is a great value.
Of course, I say that as a middle-class American, so our judgement of the relative value might differ.
I definitely agree. The long term benefits should weigh heavily, especially given that Android is still lagging in that regard.
By "not cheap", I meant the following:
(Prices are in Europe).
I didn't do research, but these are well reviewed phones that have pretty good specifications. The prices are in a very different class though. In that sense, I'd still consider an SE very close to the high-end/flagship range, purely because of the price.
I guess the way I look at it is a $400 iPhone that will last four years equals out to the same price as a Galaxy A50 or Mi 9 that I have to replace in 2 years with another $200 phone because it’s slow and not receiving security patches.
Easy math: $400 amortised over an assumed 5 year software support window for the iPhone SE 2nd generation amounts to a measly 22 cents per day. It's quite incredible to me that it's even possible.
I was watching a random episode of The Computer Chronicles from 1987 about networking and they were talking about computers that cost $5,000+ dollars. It's crazy that we can get a computer that is tens of thousands of times faster than that for a mere $400.
I'd be interested in replacing my device (a Nexus 7 2013). I really have no qualms about Android or iOS anymore; both seem to solve 99% of problems without requiring jailbreaking. My biggest issue with switching now is the ecosystem. I've been through a few.
Now it's been some years, so I'm sure all the old apps I bought on Apple are no longer supported. That's understandable. But essentially to switch devices I'd be restarting the ecosystem again.
It's tough to justify. The biggest reason to upgrade is probably gaming. But frankly, mobile gaming is such a train wreck right now that it's probably just not worth it. It's just a shame that for all the advances in device capabilities, we've limited ourselves to producing thousands of new gacha games.
I’ve bounced back and forth between Google and Apple a few times over the years. Thankfully there aren’t too many apps these days that are platform exclusive. I can count on one hand the number of apps that I use that aren’t available on both platforms (not counting apps that just aren’t possible on the other platform, obviously).
Each time I switch, I’ve had a few years of apps built up on one platform that I don’t own on the other. Usually it’s $15-$30 to catch up, since mobile apps are so inexpensive. Add that up over seven years and I suppose that could be a major expense.
If you’re interested in mobile gaming, maybe check out Apple Arcade? It’s subscription, but all of the games are ad and in-app purchase free. I signed up for the free trial a few months ago and I ended up keeping it since there are a lot of good games there and they’re not constantly bugging me to buy more coins or watch an ad to get another life.
I'll check out Apple Arcade, thanks.
That's true, and in that light it doesn't sound like much. I'm sure there's plenty I've bought but didn't need.