Things like this are why I very strongly oppose cryptocurrencies, especially in the way they are evolving now as purely investment tools, rather than any sort of a subversive digital currency. We...
Things like this are why I very strongly oppose cryptocurrencies, especially in the way they are evolving now as purely investment tools, rather than any sort of a subversive digital currency. We can talk all day about the benefits of decentralized currencies not tied to a single nation, but if we want to talk about economic systems, let's talk about externalities. Things like exacerbated GPU shortages, SSD shortages (potentially in this case), environment impact, and potential flooding of the second-hand market with damaged products, qualify as externalities because they're secondary effects of economic decisions. And the ramifications of these problems on the more conventional market are abhorrent.
Are you opposed to cryptocurrencies that have actual utility aren't super resource intensive? Nano.org is a project I've been following for years. It hasn't gained the traction I expected, but...
Are you opposed to cryptocurrencies that have actual utility aren't super resource intensive? Nano.org is a project I've been following for years. It hasn't gained the traction I expected, but it's very grassroots and probably could work as a sustainable currency. I hate what bitcoin has become, but unfortunately there appears to be no stopping it and the resources it consumes.
Actually, I could get behind something like Nano. It doesn't look like the best investement, especially since there isn't any new distribution, but that also means there won't be a bitcoin or...
Actually, I could get behind something like Nano. It doesn't look like the best investement, especially since there isn't any new distribution, but that also means there won't be a bitcoin or etherium-style rush on it either (also, it's not a proof of work system). Even the way to get it seemed to be intended to deincentivize the sort of behavior around proof-of-work systems.
yea, I think it just works great on its own as a currency, doesn't need to be an investment vehicle. Its a shame companies are trying to implement bitcoin payments when it could be something...
yea, I think it just works great on its own as a currency, doesn't need to be an investment vehicle. Its a shame companies are trying to implement bitcoin payments when it could be something simple like Nano
We should start something like Pandacoin. Prove that you've caused the death of a 🐼 panda, maybe by cutting off its ears, to get two Pandacoin. (One coin per ear).
We should start something like Pandacoin. Prove that you've caused the death of a 🐼 panda, maybe by cutting off its ears, to get two Pandacoin. (One coin per ear).
I only learned about Chia Coin recently and goddamnit. It's already impossible to find GPUs because of Bitcoin and other proof-of-work coins. Now, it's going to be impossible to find SSDs and hard...
I only learned about Chia Coin recently and goddamnit.
It's already impossible to find GPUs because of Bitcoin and other proof-of-work coins.
Now, it's going to be impossible to find SSDs and hard drives, because those will get snatched up too.
And buying used enterprise-class drives on eBay (which at the moment is a pretty reliable source for /r/DataHoarder type people like myself) is going to become a nightmare over the next year or so as drives that are worn-out from crypto mining get sold as "refurbished" (possibly with their SMART data overwritten so the power on hours / terabytes written stats look normal).
I wouldn't be that surprised, but I have to say, this is a... not amazing source. It's super brief, the grammar is all over the place it doesn't source its quote at all, and it's entirely devoid...
I wouldn't be that surprised, but I have to say, this is a... not amazing source. It's super brief, the grammar is all over the place
The mining of the Chia Coin cryptocurrency will cause significant wear and tear on SSDs, GALAX has issued a warning to customers
it doesn't source its quote at all, and it's entirely devoid of context
Who is GALAX? I had to google it. Then append "SSD" because "Galax" on its own isn't enough; it's apparently a small SSD manufacturer that specializes in "gaming" "SSDs".
"GALAX"'s quote is also not the most professional thing in the world
Due to the tests carried out, the damages are qualitative according to the test results, and that is why according to the quality assurance standards of our SSDs, we have the right to refuse to provide warranty services
Who said it, and in what context? Was it official company PR, or was it a support employee? Was this sent to a customer who requested warranty service? Sent to customers in advance? After the author emailed "GALAX" for a quote on the topic?
Not discounting some of the issues you brought up, since the article is pretty short on details, and rather shoddily written... but it should be noted that Guru3D (which is Hilbert Hagedoorn's...
Not discounting some of the issues you brought up, since the article is pretty short on details, and rather shoddily written... but it should be noted that Guru3D (which is Hilbert Hagedoorn's site) has been around a very long time, is an incredibly well known PC building and hardware benchmarking/review site, and still one of the largest computer hardware forums on the net. Their articles are typically pretty reliable, and Hilbert definitely knows his shit (even though he isn't the best writer in the world).
And as for the quote, the reason why it's lacking specific attribution and not the most professional sounding is probably because it's a translation of a popup warning from GALAX's Chinese language website. Here is another article from Tom's Hardware, written by someone I know is reliable, with a few more details: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/galax-kills-warranty-ssd-mining
Ah, I see. That the message was on the Chinese site is actually a pretty important detail, since different countries have vastly different laws and regulations regarding warranties. Whether or not...
Ah, I see. That the message was on the Chinese site is actually a pretty important detail, since different countries have vastly different laws and regulations regarding warranties. Whether or not it would be permissible in the US under the warranty agreement they had users buy with, that's another question
Although I would think that it's probably yes - there's plenty of stupid ways you can use an SSD that will burn it out like a hot knife through butter, and I'm sure SSD companies have already thought of ways to cover themselves from that risk in a way that would probably also cover Chia usage.
Yeah, most drive manufacturers I know of have 'at our discretion' style clauses, and 'if the drive failed under normal use' type conditions in their warranties, which mining Chia would probably...
Yeah, most drive manufacturers I know of have 'at our discretion' style clauses, and 'if the drive failed under normal use' type conditions in their warranties, which mining Chia would probably easily be argued to have broken. E.g. From the very first paragraph of Samsung's SSD warranty:
In the event SAMSUNG determines, in its sole discretion, that the Product suffers from defects in material or workmanship and does not substantially conform to the published specifications under normal use, for as long as You own the Product and during the limited warranty period, and subject to the conditions and exceptions stated in this Agreement, SAMSUNG will, at its option, either: (1) repair or replace the Product with new or refurbished Product of equal or greater capacity and functionality; or (2) refund the then current market value of the Product at the time the warranty claim is made to SAMSUNG if SAMSUNG is unable to repair or replace the Product.
[emphasis mine]
But if Chia takes off, I suspect drive manufacturers will probably start getting even more specific about mining violating the warranty, to make sure they can deny them to any drives they suspect were used for it.
A bit of background I got from reading Chia’s website: in order to do Chia “farming” you need to create a special file called a “plot.” This might be thought of as something like generating a...
A bit of background I got from reading Chia’s website: in order to do Chia “farming” you need to create a special file called a “plot.” This might be thought of as something like generating a bingo card, except that each card is a 1 gigabyte file. (Typically.)
Generating this file is apparently very write-intensive and they recommend using an enterprise or datacenter grade SSD to do it. So it would make sense that it might void the warranty on a consumer-grade SSD.
Once the file is made, it can be copied anywhere and is read-only after that, so the requirements are much lower. “Farming” can be thought of as something like checking if you have a winning bingo card.
I wonder why they don’t use RAM for generating the plot?
I can't see any reason I couldn't plug in a big PCIe card stacked with RAM and then tell the OS that it's a hard drive. The throughput on these devices handily obliterates other storage...
I can't see any reason I couldn't plug in a big PCIe card stacked with RAM and then tell the OS that it's a hard drive. The throughput on these devices handily obliterates other storage technologies. For Chia mining that would be best in class easily, and it won't wear out either.
Something isn't adding up to me here. Don't people write multi gigabyte files, such as HD videos, to consumer-grade SSDs all the time? Those files are basically read-only as well (for most...
Something isn't adding up to me here. Don't people write multi gigabyte files, such as HD videos, to consumer-grade SSDs all the time? Those files are basically read-only as well (for most consumers, at least). Do they provide any reasoning for the recommendation that gives insight into why the bits in these plot files are so different from other data that writing them to consumer-grade SSDs could be problematic?
Plotting is a complicated calculation, not just writing out the file once. At one point they have to sort the entire file. Also they require 3x the size of the file in temp space....
Plotting is a complicated calculation, not just writing out the file once. At one point they have to sort the entire file. Also they require 3x the size of the file in temp space.
Things like this are why I very strongly oppose cryptocurrencies, especially in the way they are evolving now as purely investment tools, rather than any sort of a subversive digital currency. We can talk all day about the benefits of decentralized currencies not tied to a single nation, but if we want to talk about economic systems, let's talk about externalities. Things like exacerbated GPU shortages, SSD shortages (potentially in this case), environment impact, and potential flooding of the second-hand market with damaged products, qualify as externalities because they're secondary effects of economic decisions. And the ramifications of these problems on the more conventional market are abhorrent.
Are you opposed to cryptocurrencies that have actual utility aren't super resource intensive? Nano.org is a project I've been following for years. It hasn't gained the traction I expected, but it's very grassroots and probably could work as a sustainable currency. I hate what bitcoin has become, but unfortunately there appears to be no stopping it and the resources it consumes.
Actually, I could get behind something like Nano. It doesn't look like the best investement, especially since there isn't any new distribution, but that also means there won't be a bitcoin or etherium-style rush on it either (also, it's not a proof of work system). Even the way to get it seemed to be intended to deincentivize the sort of behavior around proof-of-work systems.
yea, I think it just works great on its own as a currency, doesn't need to be an investment vehicle. Its a shame companies are trying to implement bitcoin payments when it could be something simple like Nano
We should start something like Pandacoin. Prove that you've caused the death of a 🐼 panda, maybe by cutting off its ears, to get two Pandacoin. (One coin per ear).
I only learned about Chia Coin recently and goddamnit.
It's already impossible to find GPUs because of Bitcoin and other proof-of-work coins.
Now, it's going to be impossible to find SSDs and hard drives, because those will get snatched up too.
And buying used enterprise-class drives on eBay (which at the moment is a pretty reliable source for /r/DataHoarder type people like myself) is going to become a nightmare over the next year or so as drives that are worn-out from crypto mining get sold as "refurbished" (possibly with their SMART data overwritten so the power on hours / terabytes written stats look normal).
Externalities aside - aren't all of these issues rather short term? What hardware manufacturers wouldn't scale up production in response to this?
The hardware manufacturer who thinks this is a fad. Capacity has to be used to be economically viable.
I wouldn't be that surprised, but I have to say, this is a... not amazing source. It's super brief, the grammar is all over the place
it doesn't source its quote at all, and it's entirely devoid of context
Who is GALAX? I had to google it. Then append "SSD" because "Galax" on its own isn't enough; it's apparently a small SSD manufacturer that specializes in "gaming" "SSDs".
"GALAX"'s quote is also not the most professional thing in the world
Who said it, and in what context? Was it official company PR, or was it a support employee? Was this sent to a customer who requested warranty service? Sent to customers in advance? After the author emailed "GALAX" for a quote on the topic?
Not discounting some of the issues you brought up, since the article is pretty short on details, and rather shoddily written... but it should be noted that Guru3D (which is Hilbert Hagedoorn's site) has been around a very long time, is an incredibly well known PC building and hardware benchmarking/review site, and still one of the largest computer hardware forums on the net. Their articles are typically pretty reliable, and Hilbert definitely knows his shit (even though he isn't the best writer in the world).
And as for the quote, the reason why it's lacking specific attribution and not the most professional sounding is probably because it's a translation of a popup warning from GALAX's Chinese language website. Here is another article from Tom's Hardware, written by someone I know is reliable, with a few more details:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/galax-kills-warranty-ssd-mining
Edit: You can see the popup warning yourself on GALAX's Chinese language site in the bottom right of their product pages: https://i.imgur.com/wNd9Ccd.png -> Translation from google
Ah, I see. That the message was on the Chinese site is actually a pretty important detail, since different countries have vastly different laws and regulations regarding warranties. Whether or not it would be permissible in the US under the warranty agreement they had users buy with, that's another question
Although I would think that it's probably yes - there's plenty of stupid ways you can use an SSD that will burn it out like a hot knife through butter, and I'm sure SSD companies have already thought of ways to cover themselves from that risk in a way that would probably also cover Chia usage.
Yeah, most drive manufacturers I know of have 'at our discretion' style clauses, and 'if the drive failed under normal use' type conditions in their warranties, which mining Chia would probably easily be argued to have broken. E.g. From the very first paragraph of Samsung's SSD warranty:
[emphasis mine]
But if Chia takes off, I suspect drive manufacturers will probably start getting even more specific about mining violating the warranty, to make sure they can deny them to any drives they suspect were used for it.
A bit of background I got from reading Chia’s website: in order to do Chia “farming” you need to create a special file called a “plot.” This might be thought of as something like generating a bingo card, except that each card is a 1 gigabyte file. (Typically.)
Generating this file is apparently very write-intensive and they recommend using an enterprise or datacenter grade SSD to do it. So it would make sense that it might void the warranty on a consumer-grade SSD.
Once the file is made, it can be copied anywhere and is read-only after that, so the requirements are much lower. “Farming” can be thought of as something like checking if you have a winning bingo card.
I wonder why they don’t use RAM for generating the plot?
I can't see any reason I couldn't plug in a big PCIe card stacked with RAM and then tell the OS that it's a hard drive. The throughput on these devices handily obliterates other storage technologies. For Chia mining that would be best in class easily, and it won't wear out either.
Something isn't adding up to me here. Don't people write multi gigabyte files, such as HD videos, to consumer-grade SSDs all the time? Those files are basically read-only as well (for most consumers, at least). Do they provide any reasoning for the recommendation that gives insight into why the bits in these plot files are so different from other data that writing them to consumer-grade SSDs could be problematic?
Plotting is a complicated calculation, not just writing out the file once. At one point they have to sort the entire file. Also they require 3x the size of the file in temp space.
https://www.chia.net/2021/02/22/plotting-basics.html
https://github.com/Chia-Network/chia-blockchain/wiki/k-sizes
OK, if these files have to be written multiple times I can see the issue. That was the piece that I wasn't grokking, thanks!