Worth noting, instead of fixing the leaking O-ring, they are putting in a weaker fuse so that when it does leak, it just blows the fuse instead of causing a fire. After all a 3¢ fuse is half as...
Hyundai and Kia are recalling nearly 3.4 million vehicles in the U.S. and telling owners to park them outside due to the risk of engine compartment fires.
The recalls cover multiple car and SUV models from the 2010 through 2019 model years including Hyundai’s Santa Fe SUV and Kia’s Sorrento SUV.
Documents posted Wednesday by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration say the anti-lock brake control module can leak fluid and cause an electrical short, which can touch off a fire while the vehicles are parked or being driven.
The company said an O-ring in the antilock brake motor shaft can lose sealing strength over time due to the presence of moisture, dirt and dissolved metals in the brake fluid, causing leaks. The new fuse limits the operating current of the brake module, the statement said.
Worth noting, instead of fixing the leaking O-ring, they are putting in a weaker fuse so that when it does leak, it just blows the fuse instead of causing a fire. After all a 3¢ fuse is half as costly as a 6¢ O-ring...
Affected Kia models:
2010 - 2019 Borrego
2014 - 2016 Cadenza
2010 - 2013 Forte, Forte Koup and Sportage
2015 - 2018 K900
2011 - 2015 Optima
2011 - 2013 Optima Hybrid and Soul
2012 - 2017 Rio
2011 - 2014 Sorento
2010 - 2011 Rondo
Affected Hyundai models
2011 - 2015 Elantra, Genesis Coupe, and Sonata Hybrid
2012 - 2015 Accent, Azera, and Veloster,
2013 - 2015 Elantra Coupe and Santa Fe
2014 - 2015 Equus
2010 - 2012 Veracruz
2010 - 2013 Tucson
2015 Tucson Fuel Cell
2013 Santa Fe Sport
It really is a shame, because Hyundai and Kia have been killing it in the design department the past few years, but all these major issues just make me doubt I’ll ever buy one unless I hear about...
It really is a shame, because Hyundai and Kia have been killing it in the design department the past few years, but all these major issues just make me doubt I’ll ever buy one unless I hear about some major changes to their management or production process. These are major, catastrophic fuck ups.
I just want Honda or Toyota to make something that fills the price and functional niche of an Ioniq 5 that’s rock solid reliable. I don’t trust Hyundai/Kai.
It's driving me crazy that I still see people buying them. Even if your car is NOT affected by the security flaws, the kind of person trying to steal your car is likely to NOT KNOW THAT. The...
It's driving me crazy that I still see people buying them.
Even if your car is NOT affected by the security flaws, the kind of person trying to steal your car is likely to NOT KNOW THAT. The number of busted windows i've seen people deal with on cars that are "safe" is absurd, and it necessitates the buying of some visible security device, like a club.
You don't know what else they're cutting corners on.
It's a shame because i'd recommend a hyundai/kia next to toyota/honda as a cheap sedan for years, but after this i'm trying to scare everyone away from them.
The people i've known who've had hyundais/kias have basically never had any issue with them. My brother has had an elantra for 10+ years and the only problem is the paint, and that was his fault.
The people i've known who've had hyundais/kias have basically never had any issue with them. My brother has had an elantra for 10+ years and the only problem is the paint, and that was his fault.
While I agree switching out the fuse is an obvious cheapskate move, the real cost is in the labor rather than the part. Replacing a fuse is a 5-minute fix, whereas replacing this O-ring probably...
While I agree switching out the fuse is an obvious cheapskate move, the real cost is in the labor rather than the part. Replacing a fuse is a 5-minute fix, whereas replacing this O-ring probably isn't.
I find it interesting that 2011-2015 Optimas are affected, but not Sonatas. They are the same car.
I'm well aware, the point being that Hyundai/Kia have a history of bandaid non-fixes to their catastrophic failures. Instead of fixing the cause of the fire, they're just going to make it fail...
I'm well aware, the point being that Hyundai/Kia have a history of bandaid non-fixes to their catastrophic failures.
Instead of fixing the cause of the fire, they're just going to make it fail earlier.
Instead of fixing their trivial to steal cars, they made it so the easy to lose/die keyfob is required to actually immobilize the car, and their update has already been circumvented.
Instead of fixing their Theta engine problems, they gave it a limp home mode.
And the fire is caused by the leak. Post fuse, the leak will still exist. The leak isn't being recalled because there is a mechanism in place to put the onus of the leak on the owner in the form...
And the fire is caused by the leak.
Post fuse, the leak will still exist.
The leak isn't being recalled because there is a mechanism in place to put the onus of the leak on the owner in the form of a low brake fluid warning.
If you drove your car, any car, to a dealership and told them your brake fluid was leaking and they replaced a fuse, would you accept that as a fix?
I don't think that's a very good analogy. In this scenario, the government is interested in preventing vehicles from starting fires. The NHTSA looks at frequency and severity when issuing recalls,...
If you drove your car, any car, to a dealership and told them your brake fluid was leaking and they replaced a fuse, would you accept that as a fix?
I don't think that's a very good analogy. In this scenario, the government is interested in preventing vehicles from starting fires. The NHTSA looks at frequency and severity when issuing recalls, the leak is evidently not something they were concerned about.
The fire is caused by the leak and improper fusing. There should be no scenario where an O-ring failure of all things results in a fire. That's the issue from a public safety standpoint, and replacing the fuse is a better fix than just fixing the leak.
Correct, the NHTSA is interested in preventing cars catching fire as that is specifically one of their primary safety defects that violates the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and results...
Correct, the NHTSA is interested in preventing cars catching fire as that is specifically one of their primary safety defects that violates the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and results in an investigation to see if a recall is necessary. A relatively minor brake fluid leak is not considered a safety related issue as like nearly every other fluid in the car, it is considered a wear item and not subject to recalls unless it causes a safety issue. Just as oil consumption is not subject to recalls, your car could burn a quart a mile and the NHTSA wouldn't issue a recall.
The fusing is not improper, it is adequate for the task it was given. The leak is outside the parameters the electrical system is designed for. The lower limit fuse will, potentially, prevent the fire issue going forward, but the primary cause of the fire is the leak as electricity isn't flammable.
The new fuse is an acceptable solution to the NHTSA because it, potentially, prevents the safety issue; fire.
The new fuse is an acceptable solution to Hyundai/Kia because it is cheaper than the o-ring.
The actual issue is caused by the leak, without the leak there would be no fire. If the fire was caused by the brake fluid leaking on the exhaust, putting a drip shield over the exhaust to prevent the leak hitting the hot pipe wouldn't be solving the issue, it would be circumventing it, as the issue would still be the leak. If the leak was dripping onto the heater core causing a fire, modifying the system to lower the amount of heat the car's HVAC system can produce wouldn't be solving the issue, it'd be circumventing it, as the issue would still be the brake fluid leaking.
Pouring a flammable liquid onto something that wasn't designed to have a flammable liquid poured onto it and then blaming the thing for causing the fire seems ever so slightly backward.
I think this is where we disagree. If you're designing a system in a proximity where an O-ring failure can result in engine fire due, that's a bad design. There should either be sufficient...
The fusing is not improper, it is adequate for the task it was given. The leak is outside the parameters the electrical system is designed for.
I think this is where we disagree. If you're designing a system in a proximity where an O-ring failure can result in engine fire due, that's a bad design. There should either be sufficient isolation that something like that is impossible or adequate fusing to prevent shorting causing a fire.
The actual issue is caused by the leak, without the leak there would be no fire.
This is getting rather philosophical but without the poorly designed brake control module, there would also be no fire. The fire risk is the issue here, fluid leaks on 10+ year old vehicles happen.
Pouring a flammable liquid onto something that wasn't designed to have a flammable liquid poured onto it and then blaming the thing for causing the fire seems ever so slightly backward.
Designing something to not have a flammable liquid poured onto it when it's a single wearable component failure away from having flammable liquid poured on it is what is backwards here.
Designing an entire electrical system to handle every possible fluid that it can ever come in contact with seems to be a much higher ask and more expensive task than simply designing a component...
Designing an entire electrical system to handle every possible fluid that it can ever come in contact with seems to be a much higher ask and more expensive task than simply designing a component that holds back a flammable liquid to do it's job. The fuel system is designed this way as it's cheaper and easier to do so than to design all of the electrical components to not react to fuel. Should your entire house be made of non-flammable materials with fully encased electrical lines because you have a gas stove or should the gas lines for the stove be designed to have a near-zero failure chance?
The o-ring isn't a wear component, it's a lifetime one that isn't meant to fail. Hyundai/Kia's continued cost/corner cutting resulted in designing a component that did fail, resulting in fires, and this band-aid recall.
I'm not a car guy, but after reading the article I would assume it could be a global one. But maybe the majority of the models affected are sold in the US. Though we have them here in Canada.. I'd...
I'm not a car guy, but after reading the article I would assume it could be a global one. But maybe the majority of the models affected are sold in the US. Though we have them here in Canada.. I'd just be generally concerned for them anywhere in the world.
Yeesh, I have a newer Kia than the affected models of this and the infamous theft vulnerability. Part of me is relieved that I should be safe, but it still leaves me with a sinking feeling about...
Yeesh, I have a newer Kia than the affected models of this and the infamous theft vulnerability. Part of me is relieved that I should be safe, but it still leaves me with a sinking feeling about my purchase. What surprise revelations are in store for me in the next five years?
I will say, I’m generally pleased with the car though. The build quality seems good, it’s comfortable and fun to drive. Apart from these ominous headlines I haven’t had much real buyer’s remorse. Coming up on 2 years of ownership and it’s still meeting most of my needs.
My car is affected by this recall. I just called their customer service to see what remedies they can offer in the interim because I don't have a place I can park my car outdoors and away from...
My car is affected by this recall. I just called their customer service to see what remedies they can offer in the interim because I don't have a place I can park my car outdoors and away from structures. They hung up on me.
I finally got through to another rep, and they said there is not going to be a fix until mid to late November. It would be a month and a half until the fix comes in.
I finally got through to another rep, and they said there is not going to be a fix until mid to late November.
It would be a month and a half until the fix comes in.
They said their "fix" is to swap out the ABS fuse. If you're concerned about it you could maybe just pull the fuse and go without ABS? I wouldn't really recommend that though. You could also...
They said their "fix" is to swap out the ABS fuse.
If you're concerned about it you could maybe just pull the fuse and go without ABS? I wouldn't really recommend that though. You could also disconnect the positive battery terminal every day after you park. Can't have a short circuit/fire if you don't have electricity!
You'd remember to connect the battery because your car won't start and you'd remember to install the ABS fuse because your dashboard will be angry with you. It's safer to leave your ABS working...
You'd remember to connect the battery because your car won't start and you'd remember to install the ABS fuse because your dashboard will be angry with you.
It's safer to leave your ABS working though, and disconnecting/reconnecting the battery each day would get old fast.
Anyone in the market for a new car that comes with more tech for the money you pay and a longer warranty. That's really all you need to know? Hondas aren't above their own issues, the 1.5T oil...
Anyone in the market for a new car that comes with more tech for the money you pay and a longer warranty. That's really all you need to know?
Hondas aren't above their own issues, the 1.5T oil dilution still isn't really fixed yet IIRC. I test drove a Civic wondering if it'd be worth that risk and didn't like the handling, the infotainment glare was awful, and my wife didn't like the ride.
I'm not saying it holds up in the long run, or that their service department experience isn't shitty or duplicitous, or that Hondas aren't generally more reliable across its or Acura's lineup, or...
I'm not saying it holds up in the long run, or that their service department experience isn't shitty or duplicitous, or that Hondas aren't generally more reliable across its or Acura's lineup, or that I like Hyundai/Kia since my shopping experience with them kinda sucked - I'm saying you asked:
Who is in the market for a Korean car these days?
And the answer is pretty obvious when they offer is more for your money in most metrics that someone who buys a new car would be looking for, nor does long-term reliability matter if the typical new car buyer wants to cycle out in five or so years.
(Also regardless of general brand reliability you're still trying to spotlight reliability for a car that has a glaring engine design flaw...)
Hey, I agree! But you're preaching to the choir, because the sales roll in, so it doesn't matter as much as you're saying it does to the new car buyers. The only way that changes in this scenario...
Hey, I agree! But you're preaching to the choir, because
The Korean companies are spending all the money on stuff that doesn't matter
the sales roll in, so it doesn't matter as much as you're saying it does to the new car buyers.
The only way that changes in this scenario IMO is if those cost savings become noticeable via the insurance premiums, whether it's fires or theft, but despite certain places dropping coverage they're still getting policies. And then by the time they're really gambling with a fire or the 7-speed DCT popping, the person gets to the end of their loan and rolls it into the next shinier and newer one, and it won't matter to them if it's running on thoughts and prayers for the used buyer... Etc etc etc.
After my Hyundai was stolen this summer I didn't even wait for it to get repaired (mechanic said it would be at least a month for parts), sold it immediately and bought a Mazda. Good excuse to get...
After my Hyundai was stolen this summer I didn't even wait for it to get repaired (mechanic said it would be at least a month for parts), sold it immediately and bought a Mazda. Good excuse to get away from that brand as fast as humanly possible. To be fair, I had no real problems with the car, really reliable and was an okay drive. Unfortunately the company has thoroughly burned away any reputation they had over the last two years.
Worth noting, instead of fixing the leaking O-ring, they are putting in a weaker fuse so that when it does leak, it just blows the fuse instead of causing a fire. After all a 3¢ fuse is half as costly as a 6¢ O-ring...
Affected Kia models:
2010 - 2019 Borrego
2014 - 2016 Cadenza
2010 - 2013 Forte, Forte Koup and Sportage
2015 - 2018 K900
2011 - 2015 Optima
2011 - 2013 Optima Hybrid and Soul
2012 - 2017 Rio
2011 - 2014 Sorento
2010 - 2011 Rondo
Affected Hyundai models
2011 - 2015 Elantra, Genesis Coupe, and Sonata Hybrid
2012 - 2015 Accent, Azera, and Veloster,
2013 - 2015 Elantra Coupe and Santa Fe
2014 - 2015 Equus
2010 - 2012 Veracruz
2010 - 2013 Tucson
2015 Tucson Fuel Cell
2013 Santa Fe Sport
Please park your easily stolen, nigh uninsurable vehicles outside lest they burn your house down with you in it.
It really is a shame, because Hyundai and Kia have been killing it in the design department the past few years, but all these major issues just make me doubt I’ll ever buy one unless I hear about some major changes to their management or production process. These are major, catastrophic fuck ups.
I just want Honda or Toyota to make something that fills the price and functional niche of an Ioniq 5 that’s rock solid reliable. I don’t trust Hyundai/Kai.
It's driving me crazy that I still see people buying them.
Even if your car is NOT affected by the security flaws, the kind of person trying to steal your car is likely to NOT KNOW THAT. The number of busted windows i've seen people deal with on cars that are "safe" is absurd, and it necessitates the buying of some visible security device, like a club.
You don't know what else they're cutting corners on.
It's a shame because i'd recommend a hyundai/kia next to toyota/honda as a cheap sedan for years, but after this i'm trying to scare everyone away from them.
What about the catastrophically bad engines some of them have as well. They're kind of just a crap brand pair all round.
The people i've known who've had hyundais/kias have basically never had any issue with them. My brother has had an elantra for 10+ years and the only problem is the paint, and that was his fault.
While I agree switching out the fuse is an obvious cheapskate move, the real cost is in the labor rather than the part. Replacing a fuse is a 5-minute fix, whereas replacing this O-ring probably isn't.
I find it interesting that 2011-2015 Optimas are affected, but not Sonatas. They are the same car.
I'm well aware, the point being that Hyundai/Kia have a history of bandaid non-fixes to their catastrophic failures.
Instead of fixing the cause of the fire, they're just going to make it fail earlier.
Instead of fixing their trivial to steal cars, they made it so the easy to lose/die keyfob is required to actually immobilize the car, and their update has already been circumvented.
Instead of fixing their Theta engine problems, they gave it a limp home mode.
I don't know if I would call it a band-aid fix. The problem the recall is addressing here is the risk of fire, not the leak.
And the fire is caused by the leak.
Post fuse, the leak will still exist.
The leak isn't being recalled because there is a mechanism in place to put the onus of the leak on the owner in the form of a low brake fluid warning.
If you drove your car, any car, to a dealership and told them your brake fluid was leaking and they replaced a fuse, would you accept that as a fix?
I don't think that's a very good analogy. In this scenario, the government is interested in preventing vehicles from starting fires. The NHTSA looks at frequency and severity when issuing recalls, the leak is evidently not something they were concerned about.
The fire is caused by the leak and improper fusing. There should be no scenario where an O-ring failure of all things results in a fire. That's the issue from a public safety standpoint, and replacing the fuse is a better fix than just fixing the leak.
Correct, the NHTSA is interested in preventing cars catching fire as that is specifically one of their primary safety defects that violates the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and results in an investigation to see if a recall is necessary. A relatively minor brake fluid leak is not considered a safety related issue as like nearly every other fluid in the car, it is considered a wear item and not subject to recalls unless it causes a safety issue. Just as oil consumption is not subject to recalls, your car could burn a quart a mile and the NHTSA wouldn't issue a recall.
The fusing is not improper, it is adequate for the task it was given. The leak is outside the parameters the electrical system is designed for. The lower limit fuse will, potentially, prevent the fire issue going forward, but the primary cause of the fire is the leak as electricity isn't flammable.
The new fuse is an acceptable solution to the NHTSA because it, potentially, prevents the safety issue; fire.
The new fuse is an acceptable solution to Hyundai/Kia because it is cheaper than the o-ring.
The actual issue is caused by the leak, without the leak there would be no fire. If the fire was caused by the brake fluid leaking on the exhaust, putting a drip shield over the exhaust to prevent the leak hitting the hot pipe wouldn't be solving the issue, it would be circumventing it, as the issue would still be the leak. If the leak was dripping onto the heater core causing a fire, modifying the system to lower the amount of heat the car's HVAC system can produce wouldn't be solving the issue, it'd be circumventing it, as the issue would still be the brake fluid leaking.
Pouring a flammable liquid onto something that wasn't designed to have a flammable liquid poured onto it and then blaming the thing for causing the fire seems ever so slightly backward.
I think this is where we disagree. If you're designing a system in a proximity where an O-ring failure can result in engine fire due, that's a bad design. There should either be sufficient isolation that something like that is impossible or adequate fusing to prevent shorting causing a fire.
This is getting rather philosophical but without the poorly designed brake control module, there would also be no fire. The fire risk is the issue here, fluid leaks on 10+ year old vehicles happen.
Designing something to not have a flammable liquid poured onto it when it's a single wearable component failure away from having flammable liquid poured on it is what is backwards here.
Designing an entire electrical system to handle every possible fluid that it can ever come in contact with seems to be a much higher ask and more expensive task than simply designing a component that holds back a flammable liquid to do it's job. The fuel system is designed this way as it's cheaper and easier to do so than to design all of the electrical components to not react to fuel. Should your entire house be made of non-flammable materials with fully encased electrical lines because you have a gas stove or should the gas lines for the stove be designed to have a near-zero failure chance?
The o-ring isn't a wear component, it's a lifetime one that isn't meant to fail. Hyundai/Kia's continued cost/corner cutting resulted in designing a component that did fail, resulting in fires, and this band-aid recall.
So this is a US specific problem?
I'm not a car guy, but after reading the article I would assume it could be a global one. But maybe the majority of the models affected are sold in the US. Though we have them here in Canada.. I'd just be generally concerned for them anywhere in the world.
I searched for "car fire" on the Canada recalls website, and I'm seeing the same advisories for Hyundai and Kia.
Yeesh, I have a newer Kia than the affected models of this and the infamous theft vulnerability. Part of me is relieved that I should be safe, but it still leaves me with a sinking feeling about my purchase. What surprise revelations are in store for me in the next five years?
I will say, I’m generally pleased with the car though. The build quality seems good, it’s comfortable and fun to drive. Apart from these ominous headlines I haven’t had much real buyer’s remorse. Coming up on 2 years of ownership and it’s still meeting most of my needs.
The UK, Europe, and if I recall correctly Canada too, have immobilizers as mandatory. The US does not.
My car is affected by this recall. I just called their customer service to see what remedies they can offer in the interim because I don't have a place I can park my car outdoors and away from structures. They hung up on me.
The risk in real terms is extremely low, is there any reason to actually park outside for a few days until the part can be replaced?
I finally got through to another rep, and they said there is not going to be a fix until mid to late November.
It would be a month and a half until the fix comes in.
We are talking about 51 incidents out of 3.4 million vehicles over the course of a decade though. How concerned should one realistically be?
With my luck... lol
They said their "fix" is to swap out the ABS fuse.
If you're concerned about it you could maybe just pull the fuse and go without ABS? I wouldn't really recommend that though. You could also disconnect the positive battery terminal every day after you park. Can't have a short circuit/fire if you don't have electricity!
lol I don't trust myself or my spouse to be able to disconnect that stuff and then remember to reconnect! 😂😂😂
You'd remember to connect the battery because your car won't start and you'd remember to install the ABS fuse because your dashboard will be angry with you.
It's safer to leave your ABS working though, and disconnecting/reconnecting the battery each day would get old fast.
You could always install a kill switch in the cabin yourself. That's a theft deterrent and anti fire device all in one!
Anyone in the market for a new car that comes with more tech for the money you pay and a longer warranty. That's really all you need to know?
Hondas aren't above their own issues, the 1.5T oil dilution still isn't really fixed yet IIRC. I test drove a Civic wondering if it'd be worth that risk and didn't like the handling, the infotainment glare was awful, and my wife didn't like the ride.
I'm not saying it holds up in the long run, or that their service department experience isn't shitty or duplicitous, or that Hondas aren't generally more reliable across its or Acura's lineup, or that I like Hyundai/Kia since my shopping experience with them kinda sucked - I'm saying you asked:
And the answer is pretty obvious when they offer is more for your money in most metrics that someone who buys a new car would be looking for, nor does long-term reliability matter if the typical new car buyer wants to cycle out in five or so years.
(Also regardless of general brand reliability you're still trying to spotlight reliability for a car that has a glaring engine design flaw...)
Hey, I agree! But you're preaching to the choir, because
the sales roll in, so it doesn't matter as much as you're saying it does to the new car buyers.
The only way that changes in this scenario IMO is if those cost savings become noticeable via the insurance premiums, whether it's fires or theft, but despite certain places dropping coverage they're still getting policies. And then by the time they're really gambling with a fire or the 7-speed DCT popping, the person gets to the end of their loan and rolls it into the next shinier and newer one, and it won't matter to them if it's running on thoughts and prayers for the used buyer... Etc etc etc.
After my Hyundai was stolen this summer I didn't even wait for it to get repaired (mechanic said it would be at least a month for parts), sold it immediately and bought a Mazda. Good excuse to get away from that brand as fast as humanly possible. To be fair, I had no real problems with the car, really reliable and was an okay drive. Unfortunately the company has thoroughly burned away any reputation they had over the last two years.