Rather liked the first two episodes. I especially like how they're at least touching on Jedi philosophy, which is a subject I'd like to see more fully explored. A lot of Jedi teachings as they're...
Rather liked the first two episodes.
I especially like how they're at least touching on Jedi philosophy, which is a subject I'd like to see more fully explored. A lot of Jedi teachings as they're laid out are pretty anathema to the way "normal real world people" live their lives. For example, in reality people often place heavy emphasis on attachment and emotions, whereas Jedi are trained to detach from those things since they open you to the Dark Side.
Acolyte isn't going deep into it, but "The Jedi Way" was touched on several times by different characters across multiple scenes. Attachment, ambition, regret were all raised by Jedi characters in one form or another. It'll be interesting to see if they stick with that, if Jedi outlook and Jedi mindset continues to play into how the story unfolds.
The Jedi philosophy has always made sense to me, because they are specifically a monastic order, with influence from martial arts tropes. They are not representative of normal people, they are a...
The Jedi philosophy has always made sense to me, because they are specifically a monastic order, with influence from martial arts tropes. They are not representative of normal people, they are a group apart that dedicates their lives to an ideal.
It also leans into nobless oblige: "with great power comes great responsibility." Having extraordinary abilities dictates that these abilities be used to help others, not to make the world worse for self-serving goals. The Jedi Order is predicated on this concept. They have the ability to great evil, which the Sith do, and so they refuse to train and enable people unless they agree to live by a moral code that mitigates that risk.
The world would be a better place if more people did aspire to live by the Jedi ideals, just not to the point of being ascetic monks.
I took a look at the Rotten Tomatoes page and I don't remember seeing something with such a big gap between critic & audience score. Honestly, the trailers for it left me pretty cold. All I want...
I took a look at the Rotten Tomatoes page and I don't remember seeing something with such a big gap between critic & audience score.
Honestly, the trailers for it left me pretty cold. All I want to know is: how does it compare to Andor, writing-wise?
IMO Andor has been the only good Star Wars live action show, but I actually enjoyed the first two episodes of The Acolyte and I’m looking forward to the rest of the season. I thought the trailers...
IMO Andor has been the only good Star Wars live action show, but I actually enjoyed the first two episodes of The Acolyte and I’m looking forward to the rest of the season. I thought the trailers were horrible and I was fully prepared to hate it, but it’s fun.
It’s not Andor though, don’t expect that. It’s occasionally very stupid on mundane things (as in… fire in space? Inexplicably lax security measures? etc.), but instead of annoying me I just rolled with it, because in general the characters themselves are likable and the plot is interesting. It’s basically just a fun YA Star Wars show.
Manny Jacinto’s role looks also like it could be juicier than they’re letting on, which has me excited. He’s been great so far.
It doesn't sound like it compares very well - on RT, the reviews seem mostly in the "moderately positive" region, which usually indicates that the show is good but it's not going to blow you away....
It doesn't sound like it compares very well - on RT, the reviews seem mostly in the "moderately positive" region, which usually indicates that the show is good but it's not going to blow you away. The word "watchable" pops up a lot too, which makes me think it'll be good and well-made, but not stretching up into those top tiers of writing like Andor.
It sounds a bit like they're getting back to the point they were at with the first Mandalorian season though, so probably an improvement on some of the recent stuff.
I disagree with the above poster. I don’t think it feels like Ahsoka or Mandalorian season 3. If anything I think the closest comparison at this point really might be Andor. People will disagree...
I disagree with the above poster. I don’t think it feels like Ahsoka or Mandalorian season 3. If anything I think the closest comparison at this point really might be Andor. People will disagree with that take, but Ashoka and Mando tie in a lot of stuff from the bigger timeline and lots of characters from other properties. But you could watch the Acolyte or Andor without any previous Star Wars knowledge and you’d be just fine. I also think it’s too soon to say if the writing is on par with Andor, but it’s definitely streets ahead of Ashoka or Obi-Wan (and I more or less like those shows compared to most).
As long as its script is better than those other two, I might give it a shot. I usually need really good reasons to subscribe to yet another service for the month. Especially one where I don't...
As long as its script is better than those other two, I might give it a shot. I usually need really good reasons to subscribe to yet another service for the month. Especially one where I don't really like where my money is going.
Well, in that case I’d recommend waiting until it has concluded and you can binge it during a trial subscription. Also, I did not coin the phrase “streets ahead” it was coined by the show...
Well, in that case I’d recommend waiting until it has concluded and you can binge it during a trial subscription.
Also, I did not coin the phrase “streets ahead” it was coined by the show Community, and if you don’t know that then I’m afraid you’re streets behind ;)
This is the first Star Wars property that I've actually enjoyed. I tend to struggle with getting invested in Star Wars properties because it all just seems very grandiose and yet pointless. Okay,...
This is the first Star Wars property that I've actually enjoyed. I tend to struggle with getting invested in Star Wars properties because it all just seems very grandiose and yet pointless. Okay, if our protagonist succeeds at this task, they'll win the Star War. But so what? What will life look like for people? What are we actually hoping for? It seems like there's just going to be another war with a bigger weapon in a few years. It's kind of sad.
This show is about the characters first. I'm interested in Osha. I want to know what happens to her, and Sol, and Jecki and Yord. I care about the stakes because they're smaller. They're imaginable to me. Before the events of this show, they weren't at war. They had a status quo, and their goal is roughly to get back to it. That's something I can root for. It's also got some pretty funny moments that I've enjoyed, and the fight choreography has been excellent.
I struggled to get through Andor because the main character was impenetrable.
spoilers for AndorThey spend all this set-up on his sister, and that goes nowhere. There's a lot of time spent on his surrogate mother later in the season, but it doesn't feel like anything because we never got to see their relationship on a normal day. Does he even like her? We don't know. I did like seeing inside the beaurocracy of the empire, that helped me understand what they were fighting, but the war still seemed pretty futile to me. The heist seemed interesting initially, but they left so much money behind, it didn't seem like it could really make that much of a difference.
So if you love Star Wars and hate this, that wouldn't surprise me. If you, like me, don't care about it, give this one a shot. It's pretty fun!
Haven't seen this series yet, but this is how I felt during the first season of the Mandalorian. Each episode was (mostly) self-contained, with an overarching story of him trying to get the Child...
I tend to struggle with getting invested in Star Wars properties because it all just seems very grandiose and yet pointless.
Haven't seen this series yet, but this is how I felt during the first season of the Mandalorian. Each episode was (mostly) self-contained, with an overarching story of him trying to get the Child to safety. The characters were interesting, the stories were Wild-West-y, and it didn't have too much of the extraneous background stuff like good vs evil, Jedi vs Sith, Empire vs Rebels.
Then seasons 2 and 3 came along and everything went back to quintessential Star Wars with grandiose plot lines and the fate of the universe hanging in the balance.
It's not interesting. The acting is wooden and the characters make no sense. Just like other Star Wars shows, poor writing is papered over with flashy special effects, battles, aliens, and...
It's not interesting. The acting is wooden and the characters make no sense. Just like other Star Wars shows, poor writing is papered over with flashy special effects, battles, aliens, and whatever Star Wars cliches blah blah blah.
This show is pretty much - look how cool this planet is, look at this lightsaber fight, oh look there are Jedi, see how cool that is - ... that's the whole show.
The characters aren't people, nothing interesting about them, just interchangeable mannequin set pieces with sculptured make up. None of them are believable as a real person.
The cast diversity feels artificially shoehorned in and doesn't feel like representation at all, it just feels like checking a box that says "diversity."
It's like looking at a movie poster or watching a fashion show. Pretty, not engaging or believable, all cliches and nothing memorable.
I absolutely disagree that the characters are wooden or make no sense. I've only seen two episodes and there are already interesting idiosyncracies about each recurring character that makes me...
I absolutely disagree that the characters are wooden or make no sense. I've only seen two episodes and there are already interesting idiosyncracies about each recurring character that makes me want to know more about them. Osha keeps helping people in dangerous moments and screwing herself over.
spoilers This is mirrored by Mae choosing not to kill the barkeep, which also screws Osha over. Jecki is intelligent and resourceful, and very invested in the rules. Not a copy-paste Hermione, they aren't arrogant or "teacher's pet" ish. Qimir is so interesting, he's clearly smarter than he pretends to be, and I'm so excited to figure out what his deal is.
I have never cared about a single Star Wars character as much as I care about Qimir.
SpoilersIn the second episode there's a lightsaberless fight that is so beautifully choreographed I mentioned it outlook to the person I was watching with. I usually zone out during fight scenes because I usually struggle to follow them and don't really care what happens aside from who wins, but this one was an absolute joy to watch. Other than being simply gorgeous, there was also a lot of intrigue. Sol was trying not to hurt Mae, Mae was trying to kill him without a weapon, Sol was trying to question Mae, meanwhile the other characters were discussing what to do. It was impossible to be bored, but extremely easy to follow. 10/10 fight scene.
If this diversity feels artificial, I have no idea how you could possibly make it feel otherwise. Almost every scene has an obviously non-human alien in it. If there's any show where any person could easily look any kind of way, this is it. That's probably true of most Star Wars, but it doesn't make the criticism any less baffling to me.
At risk of completely spoiling the first two episodes - Click to expand spoiler. In the first episode, a force user fights a Jedi. It's an ok start, not original but nothing wrong with that. Then...
At risk of completely spoiling the first two episodes -
Click to expand spoiler.
In the first episode, a force user fights a Jedi. It's an ok start, not original but nothing wrong with that.
Then the Jedi come looking for the force user. Immediately we learn that in this show, anyone can lie to Jedi about anything. They will not question or investigate and pretty clearly can't use the force to tell if someone is telling the truth, and they don't even bother to find out.
The Jedi didn't need to bring the bartender. They could have easily seen a face, a description and all the memories of the fight from anyone who was there. They could have done the same for everyone on the ship too. They could have done that with Osha and immediately learned that she was telling the truth.
These are the wise master sages, healers and warriors of the galaxy but they just grab someone and put them in a cage? No due process? No investigation? They don't even say anything about a crime being committed, or any kind of process at all. They just say a Jedi was murdered. But this seems like a terribly botched assassination. A Jedi was in a fight and got killed. Were they assassinated, or just killed, or was it "just" a bar fight? It seems like the Jedi aren't interested to figure that out.
On top of which she is a former student of this most revered and respected institution in the galaxy, and former colleagues too. But they don't try to talk it out or even try to investigate? They just throw her in a prison transport. You would think they would at least escort her, talk with her and set up some kind of inquiry.
Killing a Jedi seems like a pretty big deal. You would think they would send the best of the best to get to the truth. The wise, experienced masters who are (presumably) accomplished at investigation and discovering the truth. Someone who has had many years and countless people try to lie to them. Someone who has seen many stories and sides to the truth. Someone interesting enough to possibly have an entire show written around them.
Wouldn't that be warranted if a Jedi is murdered? Especially if there is perhaps a new sith or some dark conspiracy? Isn't that kind of a big deal?
But instead they just seemed like they didn't bother to even ask anyone, even before going out, hey it turns out there's a sister, AND the other Jedi already know about it. Even the Jedi who know about this don't bother to think twice. Except when Osha says, she's alive, and then everyone just ... changes their mind. Oops, well, they didn't bother to ask, but the people who knew just thought nothing of it.
In a galaxy full of clones, aliens, force ghosts, holograms and hallucinations and who knows what else, it seems incredibly foolish to just grab someone and put them in a cage.
Also, Osha says she's a mechanic because she doesn't have any transferable skills. From the most elite and revered institution of wisdom, learning and healing throughout the galaxy. Even a first year student would be respected and looked up to anywhere in the galaxy. Just getting in at all would be an enormous accomplishment.
It's almost like saying she trained as an Olympian but didn't make the team. Athletes still teach, they do endorsements, training, tours, speeches, books, podcasts and shows all over the world. Elite athletes are famous.
So she studied at an academy famous throughout the galaxy for history, philosophy, religion, justice and order, all kinds of caretaking from gardening to medicine, and she has no skills and nowhere to go? Couldn't even get a job as a librarian? A Senate page? A court clerk? Law, history, ... nothing? Not even ordinary university?
This is why the characters, and the writing seem two dimensional to me. They're just a patchwork of tropes and cliches in action. There is no character behind the action, expressing the simplest of thoughts such as, what if this killing wasn't what it seemed?
This is just the beginning. But this is why it looks to me like a lot of special effects papered over terrible writing. If you take away the "ooh spaceships" factor, there's nothing interesting left.
SpoilersI think a huge factor here is our different perspectives. I have seen other Star Wars properties, but I didn't really care about them enough to remember them, so the specific limitations...
SpoilersI think a huge factor here is our different perspectives. I have seen other Star Wars properties, but I didn't really care about them enough to remember them, so the specific limitations of Jedi powers (can they read minds? Don't answer that, I don't care) aren't something I'm noticing any conflicts with. I will say, it seemed to me like a lesser Jedi (he said he'd just been made knight, and Jecki doesn't seem to respect him much) was bringing her in for questioning. She hadn't been sentenced or anything, she was just going somewhere that the better Jedis could get to the bottom of it. That might not fit with how Jedis usually do things either, but it makes sense within this show in a vacuum. This covers the prestige issue as well. I don't know what Jedis teach, so it's not that weird to think she couldn't work elsewhere. It might have also been a lie or misdirection, but one that's not important enough to press further on.
I will say these criticisms to me seem a bit disconnected from your original criticisms, especially the bit about diversity. Maybe I just separate bad character development from bad world development in a way that you don't. (ex. This character is a space cop who doesn't follow space cop procedure despite being developed to be by-the-book is bad character developmen, whereas a space cop in a world where space cop procedure doesn't make sense and no one follows it is bad world development.)
Yes on reflection, my original thinking wasn't clear, and also I feel like I was reading too much into the show with some expectations. You make some valid points especially around the difference...
Yes on reflection, my original thinking wasn't clear, and also I feel like I was reading too much into the show with some expectations. You make some valid points especially around the difference between character development and world development.
I don’t really agree about the light saber fights. The main antagonist does not even carry a lightsaber and is in fact specifically instructed to kill without a weapon. And I have to ask: how can...
I don’t really agree about the light saber fights. The main antagonist does not even carry a lightsaber and is in fact specifically instructed to kill without a weapon.
And I have to ask: how can you possibly, possibly have a problem with the diversity of a show that takes place in a world of aliens. It boggles the mind. The only possible explanation I can muster is that you simply do not like seeing non-white actors doing anything.
Well as far as diversity, what you say is pretty much the opposite of how I feel personally. To me the characters look like cliches. Not racist cliches, but cliches nonetheless. I tend to feel...
Well as far as diversity, what you say is pretty much the opposite of how I feel personally. To me the characters look like cliches. Not racist cliches, but cliches nonetheless. I tend to feel like bad representation can be potentially worse than no representation. I don't think it matters if the actors are white or not.
If you saw "The Last of Us" on HBO, there is a famous gay episode. To me it's one of the best things ever put on the screen. I think it's outstanding and I think it will be something of a historical landmark in show business. It's not just good representation, it's incredible. You actually care about the people involved. They have depth. They are real. Everything they do is necessary, meaningful and important. The characters are treated with great respect, dignity and worth.
Most importantly, "being gay" is just part of the characters. They aren't defined as "gay" being the entirety of the character. They are people, just like any other people, where "gay" is just a sometimes part of the character, not the one and only outstanding characteristic.
That is respectful representation.
This show seems like the opposite. The characters don't seem interesting, meaningful or important at all. The aliens don't seem to be interesting people. Which is why, to me, diversity feels like an excuse to cover bad writing. In other words, it's using diversity as a marketing tactic to get viewers to watch. To me that feels manipulative towards the people it's supposed to support. Basically the opposite of respectful diversity.
I will admit, in my eyes I see far too much disrespectful representation "out there" and maybe I'm overthinking or reading too much into this.
So in other words I guess my original comment wasn't clear or well thought out. I feel like diversity and representation should be inclusive and respectful, and this show just doesn't feel anything like that to me. And maybe I am expecting far too much.
You had me up until here. Saying that the characters don’t feel interesting, meaningful, or important is a valid criticism. But I fail to see what that has to do with diversity. Would the...
This show seems like the opposite. The characters don't seem interesting, meaningful or important at all. The aliens don't seem to be interesting people. Which is why, to me, diversity feels like an excuse to cover bad writing. In other words, it's using diversity as a marketing tactic to get viewers to watch. To me that feels manipulative towards the people it's supposed to support. Basically the opposite of respectful diversity.
You had me up until here. Saying that the characters don’t feel interesting, meaningful, or important is a valid criticism. But I fail to see what that has to do with diversity. Would the character some how be more interesting, meaningful, or important if they were played by an actor of a different race?
Furthermore, this series takes place a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. What does “respectful representation” mean in a world where Earth, and all of cultural baggage that comes with it, does not exist? I do not need Star Wars to explain to me why a character is black or Asian or white, I just accept that those races exist the same way I accept that Humans exist in this world at all, or that Wookiees exist. That is why your criticism is baffling to me. It would seem to me that the most responsible way to do representation in a fantasy sci-fi world like Star Wars is to do exactly what they are doing: hire a diverse cast and move past it.
I see your point, well-made and well taken. This conversation makes me think I am probably reading too much into the show. This is probably more about my own cynicism around manipulative corporate...
I see your point, well-made and well taken. This conversation makes me think I am probably reading too much into the show. This is probably more about my own cynicism around manipulative corporate marketing in general and particularly bad representation in media.
I do see this kind of manipulation everywhere, of vulnerable groups of all kinds. It bothers me a lot but I think I am projecting my own biases.
All in all, this makes me want to take another look and reevaluate. Well said, and maybe we will not be in disagreement after all. Cheers
I don't really see what the problem with "shoehorned" diversity is? If I were a cynical person I would point out that this kind of relies on a norm that a cast should be mostly white and anything...
The cast diversity feels artificially shoehorned in and doesn't feel like representation at all, it just feels like checking a box that says "diversity."
I don't really see what the problem with "shoehorned" diversity is? If I were a cynical person I would point out that this kind of relies on a norm that a cast should be mostly white and anything that deviates from this is exceptional. I also think it's fine to cast actors to just play a role, even if they don't represent their real-life identity in it?
Mainly, to me it looks like manipulating the same audience which it is supposed to support. But as I mentioned in another comment I am probably reading too much into it, and you make some good points.
Mainly, to me it looks like manipulating the same audience which it is supposed to support. But as I mentioned in another comment I am probably reading too much into it, and you make some good points.
Watched the two first episodes yesterday - posted about the first one in the weekly thread so won't repeat myself here but yeah the show is not great nor terrible. Forgettably average. Something...
Watched the two first episodes yesterday - posted about the first one in the weekly thread so won't repeat myself here but yeah the show is not great nor terrible. Forgettably average.
Something that really annoys me about Star Wars and MCU shows though: Why do so many Disney+ dramas have 30-minute episodes..?
Rather liked the first two episodes.
I especially like how they're at least touching on Jedi philosophy, which is a subject I'd like to see more fully explored. A lot of Jedi teachings as they're laid out are pretty anathema to the way "normal real world people" live their lives. For example, in reality people often place heavy emphasis on attachment and emotions, whereas Jedi are trained to detach from those things since they open you to the Dark Side.
Acolyte isn't going deep into it, but "The Jedi Way" was touched on several times by different characters across multiple scenes. Attachment, ambition, regret were all raised by Jedi characters in one form or another. It'll be interesting to see if they stick with that, if Jedi outlook and Jedi mindset continues to play into how the story unfolds.
The Jedi philosophy has always made sense to me, because they are specifically a monastic order, with influence from martial arts tropes. They are not representative of normal people, they are a group apart that dedicates their lives to an ideal.
It also leans into nobless oblige: "with great power comes great responsibility." Having extraordinary abilities dictates that these abilities be used to help others, not to make the world worse for self-serving goals. The Jedi Order is predicated on this concept. They have the ability to great evil, which the Sith do, and so they refuse to train and enable people unless they agree to live by a moral code that mitigates that risk.
The world would be a better place if more people did aspire to live by the Jedi ideals, just not to the point of being ascetic monks.
I took a look at the Rotten Tomatoes page and I don't remember seeing something with such a big gap between critic & audience score.
Honestly, the trailers for it left me pretty cold. All I want to know is: how does it compare to Andor, writing-wise?
IMO Andor has been the only good Star Wars live action show, but I actually enjoyed the first two episodes of The Acolyte and I’m looking forward to the rest of the season. I thought the trailers were horrible and I was fully prepared to hate it, but it’s fun.
It’s not Andor though, don’t expect that. It’s occasionally very stupid on mundane things (as in… fire in space? Inexplicably lax security measures? etc.), but instead of annoying me I just rolled with it, because in general the characters themselves are likable and the plot is interesting. It’s basically just a fun YA Star Wars show.
Manny Jacinto’s role looks also like it could be juicier than they’re letting on, which has me excited. He’s been great so far.
To be honest (and a bit of a cynic) I think some of the audience score is probably reactionary types complaining that "it's 'woke'!".
It doesn't sound like it compares very well - on RT, the reviews seem mostly in the "moderately positive" region, which usually indicates that the show is good but it's not going to blow you away. The word "watchable" pops up a lot too, which makes me think it'll be good and well-made, but not stretching up into those top tiers of writing like Andor.
It sounds a bit like they're getting back to the point they were at with the first Mandalorian season though, so probably an improvement on some of the recent stuff.
It does not really compare well to Andor. It's more like Ahsoka or season 3 Mandalorian.
Well, there goes any chance of me watching it!
I disagree with the above poster. I don’t think it feels like Ahsoka or Mandalorian season 3. If anything I think the closest comparison at this point really might be Andor. People will disagree with that take, but Ashoka and Mando tie in a lot of stuff from the bigger timeline and lots of characters from other properties. But you could watch the Acolyte or Andor without any previous Star Wars knowledge and you’d be just fine. I also think it’s too soon to say if the writing is on par with Andor, but it’s definitely streets ahead of Ashoka or Obi-Wan (and I more or less like those shows compared to most).
As long as its script is better than those other two, I might give it a shot. I usually need really good reasons to subscribe to yet another service for the month. Especially one where I don't really like where my money is going.
Also, stop trying to coin the phrase "streets ahead"
Well, in that case I’d recommend waiting until it has concluded and you can binge it during a trial subscription.
Also, I did not coin the phrase “streets ahead” it was coined by the show Community, and if you don’t know that then I’m afraid you’re streets behind ;)
This is the first Star Wars property that I've actually enjoyed. I tend to struggle with getting invested in Star Wars properties because it all just seems very grandiose and yet pointless. Okay, if our protagonist succeeds at this task, they'll win the Star War. But so what? What will life look like for people? What are we actually hoping for? It seems like there's just going to be another war with a bigger weapon in a few years. It's kind of sad.
This show is about the characters first. I'm interested in Osha. I want to know what happens to her, and Sol, and Jecki and Yord. I care about the stakes because they're smaller. They're imaginable to me. Before the events of this show, they weren't at war. They had a status quo, and their goal is roughly to get back to it. That's something I can root for. It's also got some pretty funny moments that I've enjoyed, and the fight choreography has been excellent.
I struggled to get through Andor because the main character was impenetrable.
So if you love Star Wars and hate this, that wouldn't surprise me. If you, like me, don't care about it, give this one a shot. It's pretty fun!
Haven't seen this series yet, but this is how I felt during the first season of the Mandalorian. Each episode was (mostly) self-contained, with an overarching story of him trying to get the Child to safety. The characters were interesting, the stories were Wild-West-y, and it didn't have too much of the extraneous background stuff like good vs evil, Jedi vs Sith, Empire vs Rebels.
Then seasons 2 and 3 came along and everything went back to quintessential Star Wars with grandiose plot lines and the fate of the universe hanging in the balance.
Appreciate the irony of someone doing dangerous work, that's legally supposed to only be done by droids, being named OSHA.
That is absolutely "le mot juste." Did not notice that at all.
It's not interesting. The acting is wooden and the characters make no sense. Just like other Star Wars shows, poor writing is papered over with flashy special effects, battles, aliens, and whatever Star Wars cliches blah blah blah.
This show is pretty much - look how cool this planet is, look at this lightsaber fight, oh look there are Jedi, see how cool that is - ... that's the whole show.
The characters aren't people, nothing interesting about them, just interchangeable mannequin set pieces with sculptured make up. None of them are believable as a real person.
The cast diversity feels artificially shoehorned in and doesn't feel like representation at all, it just feels like checking a box that says "diversity."
It's like looking at a movie poster or watching a fashion show. Pretty, not engaging or believable, all cliches and nothing memorable.
I absolutely disagree that the characters are wooden or make no sense. I've only seen two episodes and there are already interesting idiosyncracies about each recurring character that makes me want to know more about them. Osha keeps helping people in dangerous moments and screwing herself over.
I have never cared about a single Star Wars character as much as I care about Qimir.
If this diversity feels artificial, I have no idea how you could possibly make it feel otherwise. Almost every scene has an obviously non-human alien in it. If there's any show where any person could easily look any kind of way, this is it. That's probably true of most Star Wars, but it doesn't make the criticism any less baffling to me.
At risk of completely spoiling the first two episodes -
Click to expand spoiler.
In the first episode, a force user fights a Jedi. It's an ok start, not original but nothing wrong with that.Then the Jedi come looking for the force user. Immediately we learn that in this show, anyone can lie to Jedi about anything. They will not question or investigate and pretty clearly can't use the force to tell if someone is telling the truth, and they don't even bother to find out.
The Jedi didn't need to bring the bartender. They could have easily seen a face, a description and all the memories of the fight from anyone who was there. They could have done the same for everyone on the ship too. They could have done that with Osha and immediately learned that she was telling the truth.
These are the wise master sages, healers and warriors of the galaxy but they just grab someone and put them in a cage? No due process? No investigation? They don't even say anything about a crime being committed, or any kind of process at all. They just say a Jedi was murdered. But this seems like a terribly botched assassination. A Jedi was in a fight and got killed. Were they assassinated, or just killed, or was it "just" a bar fight? It seems like the Jedi aren't interested to figure that out.
On top of which she is a former student of this most revered and respected institution in the galaxy, and former colleagues too. But they don't try to talk it out or even try to investigate? They just throw her in a prison transport. You would think they would at least escort her, talk with her and set up some kind of inquiry.
Killing a Jedi seems like a pretty big deal. You would think they would send the best of the best to get to the truth. The wise, experienced masters who are (presumably) accomplished at investigation and discovering the truth. Someone who has had many years and countless people try to lie to them. Someone who has seen many stories and sides to the truth. Someone interesting enough to possibly have an entire show written around them.
Wouldn't that be warranted if a Jedi is murdered? Especially if there is perhaps a new sith or some dark conspiracy? Isn't that kind of a big deal?
But instead they just seemed like they didn't bother to even ask anyone, even before going out, hey it turns out there's a sister, AND the other Jedi already know about it. Even the Jedi who know about this don't bother to think twice. Except when Osha says, she's alive, and then everyone just ... changes their mind. Oops, well, they didn't bother to ask, but the people who knew just thought nothing of it.
In a galaxy full of clones, aliens, force ghosts, holograms and hallucinations and who knows what else, it seems incredibly foolish to just grab someone and put them in a cage.
Also, Osha says she's a mechanic because she doesn't have any transferable skills. From the most elite and revered institution of wisdom, learning and healing throughout the galaxy. Even a first year student would be respected and looked up to anywhere in the galaxy. Just getting in at all would be an enormous accomplishment.
It's almost like saying she trained as an Olympian but didn't make the team. Athletes still teach, they do endorsements, training, tours, speeches, books, podcasts and shows all over the world. Elite athletes are famous.
So she studied at an academy famous throughout the galaxy for history, philosophy, religion, justice and order, all kinds of caretaking from gardening to medicine, and she has no skills and nowhere to go? Couldn't even get a job as a librarian? A Senate page? A court clerk? Law, history, ... nothing? Not even ordinary university?
This is why the characters, and the writing seem two dimensional to me. They're just a patchwork of tropes and cliches in action. There is no character behind the action, expressing the simplest of thoughts such as, what if this killing wasn't what it seemed?
This is just the beginning. But this is why it looks to me like a lot of special effects papered over terrible writing. If you take away the "ooh spaceships" factor, there's nothing interesting left.
I will say these criticisms to me seem a bit disconnected from your original criticisms, especially the bit about diversity. Maybe I just separate bad character development from bad world development in a way that you don't. (ex. This character is a space cop who doesn't follow space cop procedure despite being developed to be by-the-book is bad character developmen, whereas a space cop in a world where space cop procedure doesn't make sense and no one follows it is bad world development.)
Yes on reflection, my original thinking wasn't clear, and also I feel like I was reading too much into the show with some expectations. You make some valid points especially around the difference between character development and world development.
I don’t really agree about the light saber fights. The main antagonist does not even carry a lightsaber and is in fact specifically instructed to kill without a weapon.
And I have to ask: how can you possibly, possibly have a problem with the diversity of a show that takes place in a world of aliens. It boggles the mind. The only possible explanation I can muster is that you simply do not like seeing non-white actors doing anything.
Well as far as diversity, what you say is pretty much the opposite of how I feel personally. To me the characters look like cliches. Not racist cliches, but cliches nonetheless. I tend to feel like bad representation can be potentially worse than no representation. I don't think it matters if the actors are white or not.
If you saw "The Last of Us" on HBO, there is a famous gay episode. To me it's one of the best things ever put on the screen. I think it's outstanding and I think it will be something of a historical landmark in show business. It's not just good representation, it's incredible. You actually care about the people involved. They have depth. They are real. Everything they do is necessary, meaningful and important. The characters are treated with great respect, dignity and worth.
Most importantly, "being gay" is just part of the characters. They aren't defined as "gay" being the entirety of the character. They are people, just like any other people, where "gay" is just a sometimes part of the character, not the one and only outstanding characteristic.
That is respectful representation.
This show seems like the opposite. The characters don't seem interesting, meaningful or important at all. The aliens don't seem to be interesting people. Which is why, to me, diversity feels like an excuse to cover bad writing. In other words, it's using diversity as a marketing tactic to get viewers to watch. To me that feels manipulative towards the people it's supposed to support. Basically the opposite of respectful diversity.
I will admit, in my eyes I see far too much disrespectful representation "out there" and maybe I'm overthinking or reading too much into this.
So in other words I guess my original comment wasn't clear or well thought out. I feel like diversity and representation should be inclusive and respectful, and this show just doesn't feel anything like that to me. And maybe I am expecting far too much.
You had me up until here. Saying that the characters don’t feel interesting, meaningful, or important is a valid criticism. But I fail to see what that has to do with diversity. Would the character some how be more interesting, meaningful, or important if they were played by an actor of a different race?
Furthermore, this series takes place a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. What does “respectful representation” mean in a world where Earth, and all of cultural baggage that comes with it, does not exist? I do not need Star Wars to explain to me why a character is black or Asian or white, I just accept that those races exist the same way I accept that Humans exist in this world at all, or that Wookiees exist. That is why your criticism is baffling to me. It would seem to me that the most responsible way to do representation in a fantasy sci-fi world like Star Wars is to do exactly what they are doing: hire a diverse cast and move past it.
I see your point, well-made and well taken. This conversation makes me think I am probably reading too much into the show. This is probably more about my own cynicism around manipulative corporate marketing in general and particularly bad representation in media.
I do see this kind of manipulation everywhere, of vulnerable groups of all kinds. It bothers me a lot but I think I am projecting my own biases.
All in all, this makes me want to take another look and reevaluate. Well said, and maybe we will not be in disagreement after all. Cheers
Your response is very much the opposite of what I am used to seeing online. Cheers, indeed 🍻
I don't really see what the problem with "shoehorned" diversity is? If I were a cynical person I would point out that this kind of relies on a norm that a cast should be mostly white and anything that deviates from this is exceptional. I also think it's fine to cast actors to just play a role, even if they don't represent their real-life identity in it?
Mainly, to me it looks like manipulating the same audience which it is supposed to support. But as I mentioned in another comment I am probably reading too much into it, and you make some good points.
Watched the two first episodes yesterday - posted about the first one in the weekly thread so won't repeat myself here but yeah the show is not great nor terrible. Forgettably average.
Something that really annoys me about Star Wars and MCU shows though: Why do so many Disney+ dramas have 30-minute episodes..?
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