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Let's talk about tropes!
I have a friend who recently started reading fiction books for the first time since he was a teenager. It's been great recommending him some books, and he is currently exploring different genres to find ones he likes with a goal of one book a month this year. I was chatting with him about his reading today and this got me thinking about the books I enjoy and associated tropes of different genres.
This made me think it might be fun seeing what my fellows tilders think about tropes in books.
- Do you have any tropes in books that you love?
- On the flip side, do you have any tropes that you can't stand?
- Are there any novels that execute these tropes well/poorly?
- Do you find yourself enjoying tropes being subverted?
- Anything else trope related you want to chat about!
The hitman with a heart of gold! (I have almost zero standards when it comes to fictional hitmen)
The writer. Who writes. About writing. But he can't write. He has writers block. Then something whacky happens. But he also wrote that wacky thing. But he can't stop writing about it, he is consumed by the need to write his own story.
The Shining by Stephen King
Misery by Stephen King
Dangit, I loathe Stephen King, but he is the only one who writes about writers... well.
I enjoy anything that fools you by subverting any preconceived notion. But I dislike plot spoilers. So I wont list anything here.
If you are willing to step outside of books, the Alan Wake series of video games execute the writer trope excellently.
On writers writing about writers block, there's a film that does this very well, by being a fourth wall breaking fever dream
I enjoy chiefly two things:
I do not enjoy trope subversion that I feel is "cheap" or when it belittles the genre. In my mind, subversion is by its nature a critique of the trope it subverts, so overt "you thought I was going to say ___" that you'd find in books such as YA novels feels gross.
Yes I dislike that sort of tone as well, it feels smarmy. There are no cheap tricks in literature, only cheap, insincere attempts.
I thought Chekov’s Gun was where every bit is significant to the future story? I like it where there are lots of clues/foretelling/links peppered through the story , but I don’t think I would like it if every small detail was significant.
Chekhov's gun was initially advice for playwrights, emphasizing that irrelevant details should be removed from storytelling (something that is also much more important in playwriting than in a novel imo). The meaning cited by Queresote is a recent re-interpretation that means almost the exact opposite of what Chekhov originally meant by it, but it's the more common usage these days and is usually applied to mediums that differ significantly from the one Chekhov was addressing anyway.
You will find under most explanations of Chekhov's Gun a section on the modern re-interpretation of it as a trope. I meant it in that way.
I also love a good torch passing. Having the character realize at that moment that their mentor now trusts them to do X thing or take care of Y. Especially after the character has really worked for it and grown over the course of time.
When I was a teenager, I consumed a lot of light novel type books, a sizable portion of which were the trashy romance types, in which the violent, red flag parading, abusive, belong in jail tropes of boyfriends / spouses were plentiful.
A few regrettably common unhealthy examples, tw
The opening premise is some violent warlord / gang leader with a secret heart of gold who kidnaps / is gifted / confines and sexually assaults the young female protagonist, finds that she is a virgin (unscientific), and shows some degree of remorse only due to her virginity and the suffering, and then proceeds to reveal his softer side and develop a relationship for the rest of the book.
The possessive and violently jealous boy. Think, "I was only so rough because you made me angry". Ranges from screaming at her, to assaulting her, to show her how much he cares etc.
The "so rich he can buy anything" boy. Not just trinkets and dinners, but buys entire company so no one yells at her at work anymore, or buys her parents so she has to work for him, or buys her life as a slave, or pays her (and her sickly younger brother's) tuition at an exclusive prestige school so he owns her etc.
Protagonist is a princess/rich lady that got separated from her family as a baby, suffering ensues, becomes rich by the end. Or the reverse, a princess is revealed to be a commoner, suffering ensues, marries the (ex)brother and is rich again by the end.
Non Violent / Abusive tropes: the memory loss arc, gets hit by cars without hurting the face, terminal illness without hurting the face, paying off family debt, waking up on the same bed naked, "you look exactly like my late wife", the possessive brother or father, the homewrecker third woman or possessive mother-in-law, the misunderstanding arc, the nearly being financially ruined arc, falling onto each other sexily, the magic make over, the fall off a cliff but survive without hurting the face, the getting pregnant from one encounter, the pregnant lady falls down stairs / is gently bumped into and miscarries, the ridiculously overpowered secret genetic inheritance, the drive super far into the country without filling up first, the CPR as a sexy kiss scene, the " it's so cold let's take off our clothes to cuddle".
Another one I supremely dislike: female protagonist is such a long suffering, silent saint that horrible people are impressed by and are kind to her. Real life horrible people don't notice quiet suffering, let alone appreciate and become better people.
Or the slightly different: protagonist hits the horribly spoiled rich boy, he's shocked because no one has dared, and falls in love with her. Real life horrible people don't have realisations like that.
I never liked these trope at all but they were common enough that were I to specifically avoid them based on the book title or back blurb, I'd not have much else to read.
Meanwhile, there are some old ones that I do reliably enjoy:
A girl dresses as a boy and travels the world safely.
A boy dresses as a girl and finds honest to goodness friendship with other girls.
I think I know the exact kind of trashy romance fiction you're talking about, since it sounds like a lot of the comic adaptations of Korean romance fantasy web novels I read during the pandemic. For some reason, that genre is just over-saturated with male leads full of endless red flags and scummy behavior. It's especially bad in stories that have time travel involved, and yet the female lead still ends up with the same bad spouse after initially resolving to get away under the thin veil of "misunderstandings in the first life".
This comic panel sums up way too many female leads' mindsets in this genre. Source is "Cheating Men Must Die", a series that's all about hijacking bodies of characters in romance web novels to deal with these exact sort of male leads.
Then there's the alternative trope from that genre: the "perfect savior" who swoops in to save the female lead from an abusive family or spouse, and fixes everything with his massive political (or physical) power and wealth. He gets revenge on all those who wronged her, sometimes giving her the chance to confront them, and basically just worships the ground she walks on.
And... that's it. The guy's whole character and sole motivation revolves around lavishing the abused female lead with love and affection. Sometimes he has a secret dark and murderous side towards those who hurt her, but is still always like a puppy around her.
There's practically nothing in between those two options. You either have a horrible awful asshole, or a one-dimensional savior. Weirdly, the exceptions I can think of are primarily comedies and satires...
Haha yeah that's the genre, which also includes 90s Taiwanese HK and Chinese trash fics, manga and anime. The time travel / isekai ones are newer since then.
The slavish puppy with a dark side also coincides with, I would venture to guess, a 2000s era "shitsuji / omnipotent butler" trope type where (male or female or gender neutral) protag acquires an SSR tier summon somehow, so protag can continue to be sunshine pure and "business gets taken care of" off panel?
I hear a "re-do" / revenge subversion is on the rise as well, where the female protag time travels: (example) terrible husband abandons her to die alone in the hospital while he hooks up with her best female friend, and then she's suddenly 15 years younger again and buys apple stock and proceeds to personally destroy both traitors. At least a bit of an improvement in that she's taking action into her own hands. I glanced at another one where she goes back in time and chooses different men that turn out to be varying degrees of terrible each time and then...not sure what happens at the end, maybe rides off into the sunset alone? I want to see more of these lone woman uses redo powers to get stronger herself subversion. A sort of Solo Levelling but with a heroine
Edit: my eyes rolled all the way to an isekai reading that manhua page, thanks for the ride
I definitely got into it because of the isekai, particularly the villainess ones... Except these "villainesses" tend to have highly tragic backstories more befitting of heroines.
I can accept the hyper-competent servant trope more because they don't usually do literally everything and are typically still following orders at least. With the perfect savior male lead archetype, they do everything while the female lead questions "Do I really deserve this kindness after all the horrible things that happened?" Yeah... Those tend to have some of the more passive female leads.
The redo/revenge ones are still hit or miss in terms of how much the female lead actually takes control. I can think of a couple where the heroine's biggest advantage ends up being ditching her bad partner for one of those savior archetypes who can help shield her as she facilitates her revenge. And a few where they know so many hyper-specific details to take advantage of that it's ridiculous. (Though shout-out to "The Villainess Reverses the Hourglass" for being probably the best one I've seen. The lead actually lives up to the title with how far she's willing to go for revenge without becoming totally ruthless, and she succeeds largely through her own wit and effort rather than relying on others' power to bolster her. Don't know how much of the novel is translated, but I can recommend the webcomic adaptation at least.)
Also, the one you mentioned about multiple bad husbands could be June Peach? I only remember the title because the peach in question turned out to be cursed and doomed all her relationships to end in tragedy before going back in time. It ended with breaking the curse and finally having a happy marriage with the true male lead. And... Yeah, I can accept that. Bit fluffy for my tastes, but it's built off of an actually tragic romance rather than trying to make out a clearly awful husband to just be "misunderstood". Would like to see one end without marrying anyone for once though!
And thought you'd appreciate that manhua panel. Funny story, that panel was my introduction to the series after someone posted it in a comment on another story with a far too-forgiving female lead towards an absolute asshole. Another person then replied to clarify it came from an arc specifically lambasting that whole formula and exaggerating the tropes, because several people found it all too believable that that line was written seriously... Really says a lot about the state of the genre. The bar is really low, and many stories still do not pass.
My dream RPG to make involves this as part of the boy's redemption arc, joining the main cast of magical girls. Except instead of (only) dressing as a girl, they accept their repressed transfemme identity. I've gotta make gains on my skills and gather a team before I could do it justice though, that's far future project. Though I've worried it would... fall flat, I think a skilled writer could help me make it work. Combining it with the "magically affirmed gender" trope may end up corny, but if it is sweet, then I'd be happy.
Coming of age tropes are great though, and even if the plot points are predictable, the execution can be endearing enough to carry into pure joy, with audience cheering them on from the start. I can see this playing out several ways and wonder what you have in mind:
Maybe they can do a Sailor Stars things where they're 100% male in regular life and 100% female as Magical Girls?
Maybe they're a Steven Universe Stevonnie style, where it's a boy and a girl fusion together as one non binary person?
Most likely, when you said repressed, they've always been transfemme but was a bit toxic because it felt unsafe to present as anything but ultra masculine?
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely sit with those as the idea develops. Haven't gotten to Sailor Stars yet but we're watching season 4 currently.
Yep! I was thinking they'd be like crown prince of the evil empire or head of the royal guard playing a recurring antagonist before splitting from the empire. So I suppose not so much of "boy finds good friendships in girls," but feels like it'd be on the same or related page on tvtropes.
If you don't know of it yet, you might enjoy the Humor Me webcomic, about a girl living as a boy. It's not perfect and slow as molasses but it's very charming.
No I haven't seen this, what gorgeous art! Thank you I will be enjoying this today
Wait a minute it hasn't ended has it?! Nooooo add to the pile .... :')
You just listed off a bunch of cliches you dislike. Are there any tropes or cliches you do like?
There were two tropes they liked listed. Plus the original post asked for tropes people couldn't stand either? This reads as critical of choco's opinion and that you didn't finish reading their comment.
I wasn't intending to be condescending or critical, I was curious about what Choco actually liked about the books they were talking about.
I should know not to post any kind of comment online for at least an hour after I wake. I guess I need more time to get my textual tone and reading comprehension straight.
DefinitelyNotAFae since you're already on the thread, I want to hear about your favourite / hated tropes too :)
For sure, I just haven't had the brain time to write yet (◕ᴗ◕✿)
Did I misunderstand the difference between a cliche and a trope?
But yeah, it's easier to criticize than to appreciate. I guess I'm thoroughly over the older romance genre, and forgot to praise the newer ones. I read a Bridgerton one recently and was pleasantly surprised by how non violent the male protagonist is, and how there's so much more respect for the women. I felt like the author did have to bend over backwards to justify why a wonderful, sensitive Bachelor behaved like a jerk until the heroine arrived, and the author glossed over the jerk part heavily as well. I hope that this isn't a subversion so much as a continental shift for the genre.
It wasn't my intention to criticize, I just noticed that most of what you listed were cliched tropes that you disliked, and I was curious if there were any you did like. I missed the ones you expressed appreciation for, so I apologize for my poor reading comprehension this morning. I responded almost the first thing after I woke up, so I wasn't at my sharpest, I guess.
I was mostly using "trope" and "cliche" as synonyms, but there is a distinction. It wasn't my goal to hash that out, but we could if that interests you. I'm usually down for actually making use of my English degree for a change.
Oh yes I would definitely want to glean off your English degree :D is there a sort of overlapping circles thing or are they fairly distinct? I assumed cliche was for more phrases / expressions and tropes more plot points or character archetypes, but if you could spare the time, definitely interested
I think it depends on who you ask, but since you asked me, I'll tell you my own opinion.
Are you familiar with the concept of a dead metaphor? They're when an expression is coined as a specific metaphor, but loses the metaphorical sense along the way for one reason or another until people forget it was ever metaphorical to begin with, and only understand the expression in its idiomatic usage. "Kick the bucket" is one, "red-letter day" is another.
I think of cliches as being akin to that, only instead of a figurative meaning being lost, it's the affective impact of the thing that's been lost along the way.
One literary example I think of often is Holden Caulfield. When Catcher in the Rye was published, the character type of a precociously cynical teenager rejecting the niceties of adulthood as insincere and hollow was fresh, and had immense impact. It was so impactful that you can almost categorize YA literature by whether it was written before or after Catcher (BS: Before Salinger, AS: After Salinger). These days we have a special term for the Holdens of the world: "edgelord." That character type, that trope, has lost a lot of its affective impact. It's still possible for a character like that to be thought-provoking and emotionally impactful, but most often they've degenerated to cliché. "Seen one, seen 'em all."
We tend to use the term "trope" in colloquial usage to mean cliches, but the technical meaning is broader than just familiar plot devices and characters. In its technical sense it includes those as well as rhetorical figures and devices. For instance, periphrasis, metaphor and synecdoche are all rhetorical figures/devices, which are a type of trope. I bet you'd have to look hard to find someone who'd dismiss the use of any simile as being cliche; I submit that would depend on the specific simile employed, and whether that particular simile has been overused and thus has lost affective power.
I don't know if that clears things up any, but I gave it a shot. I wrote this during my work breaks over the course of my day, so apologies if it is a bit disjointed and not very illuminating.
There actually is a trope on TV Tropes describing this exact phenomenon -- Seinfeld is Unfunny.
I think the word cliche is generally used more broadly than you define it here, as in my experience the way most people use the term is more or less synonymous with "trope" except with the added negative connotation that it's overdone and unoriginal. I think this negative assessment of the execution is the main component of the word "cliche" in comparison to "trope" these days. While TV tropes is far from a perfect website, I tend to agree with their assessment on the page Tropes Are Tools that a particular trope is neither inherently good nor inherently bad, but that it's all down to the context and execution. Their page on cliches uses their own definition, in which they define them as tropes that have become common enough to be an expected part of a work, which I think is an interesting take on the distinction between tropes and cliches that retains the sense of commonness in the definition of "cliche" while discarding the inherent negativity.
Fun etymology fact: the meaning of "trope" actually was originally (it's first attested in the 1500s) much narrower, referring strictly to metaphors and figurative language, and its usage has broadened over time. It is several hundred years older than "cliche", which originates in the 1800s originally referred to a block used for stereotype printing and developed into meaning "a trite phrase or expression" alongside the similar evolution in the meaning of the term "stereotype." So both words have significantly broadened in meaning over time now that we're using them to refer to elements of storytelling rather than just phrases in language.
Thanks for explaining that, I've heard these terms only colloquially and haven't thought about some dead metaphors as even being a metaphor anymore :)
I'm just going to invite myself into this branch of the conversation to say that I would like to hear more about the distinction.
I want to see what others think about this too! My take is that a trope is broader and a cliche is more specific, but I could be wrong. For example: is something like "the good guy gets the girl" a trope, vs. "the good guy marries the girl at the end" a cliche?
One trope I hate in all forms of fiction is just really bad communication. Which is funny because one of my favorite tropes when reading fan fiction is misunderstandings. It all boils down to characters just NOT telling others about very vital, basic information about ongoing events for no good reason besides adding drama. Not a book, but Star Wars: The Last Jedi is the prime example to come to mind. Literally the whole movie's plot stems from the commanding officers NOT telling one character there was indeed an escape plan, prompting him and others to go rogue and launch their own plan.
Aside from that: when it comes to novels, I particularly like the mystery genre but don't have many particular tropes I can name from that genre besides the grand reveal. The denouement where the detectives reveal everything in a "deduction show" is always pretty fun.
I honestly read more fan fiction than novels these days though, and the tropes I like for that are different since I go in knowing the typical character dynamics and settings. One of my favorite tropes is something that doesn't quite have a name. To sum it up, I like when typically close characters fight where one gets really frustrated with the other but bottles it up, and tension building between them until there's a big blowout moment where it all comes out. The catharsis of them finally releasing all their thoughts so they can all start to make amends is just so good.
One more trope I really like is just found family. Maybe it's because I'm an only child, but I love seeing all these family-like bonds arise between characters with no blood relation. I love people becoming practically siblings, I love adults all but adopting a child... It's fun to see the types of bonds that can form.
Also, I love seeing tropes and story formulas get subverted or twisted in some way. I like it when media can genuinely surprise me (might be why I like mysteries so much?), or when characters have some trait that defies their archetype. I particularly remember being surprised by one book I read in high school that defied my expectations by NOT having the main character develop romantic feelings for a girl he just met. It made me realize most of the other books I'd read at that time would have new friends of the opposite sex become a love interest, even though it was never the focal point.
On that note, shout out to Neal Shusterman's works for often subverting tropes and twisting formulas. His first books I read were the "Dark Fusion" trilogy which used classic fairy tales as the basis and twisted them in horror-adjacent ways. I think most of his works subvert tropes even while following formulas. Took me years to realize Unwind is a dystopian novel because it had the typical formula of running away and being hunted by the government, but it had none of the usual tropes of micromanaging people's lives or restricting free thought.
I'm basic enough that I typically enjoy stories in which people change/evolve/try new things. So... That's the most egregious, I think. Encompasses coming of age, hero's journeys, travel stories with a rotating cast of characters, etc.
Also, benevolent aliens/hive mind/AI/etc.
Funny, lovable sidekicks (long term).
Revolutionary technology completely changes the world, and the world building is so good that the story shows this in like fifty different ways.
PLOT TWIST! The more twisty, the better. Recontextualize the whole plot for me and blow my mind!
Violence isn't the answer... Except when it is. Extreme, cartoonishly over the top, cathartic violence.
The villain can do whatever the plot requires and no one notices/cares/knows/conceives of stopping them. Meanwhile, the protagonist has zero agency and is just being swept along. I call this overcorrection. My theory is that this happens when authors either independently decide they are treating their protagonists too well and lose confidence in their own story, or worse, when they spend too much time on Twitter. (It happens much more often in second or third books than in first books.) I was reading that person's story, and now they might as well have been frozen inside an iceberg and nothing would change. Urgh.
Children are tormented, killed or otherwise abused in an attempt to emotionally manipulate the reader.
Author watched too many Fox TV shows and decided that the last fifty pages of their book needed to fabricate an entirely new conflict from scratch in order to leave a cliffhanger to encourage the reader to buy the next book. Typically this is rushed and immersion-breaking (this is an immediate series drop from me.)
Yes.
I'm a fan of the Emberverse series, and I would actually highly recommend the initial trilogy. Great world building, with my only complaint being that I wanted the author to spend more time as the groups worked to build new societies in their post apocalyptic world instead of the time skip between books 1 and 2 where they had all basically built their towns/cities already. The author did what you described exactly, and it was infuriating to the point where I haven't started the next arc in the series because of how much hit annoyed me even though I picked up book 11 so I could dive in after taking a break from the series.
Spoilers for the second major Arc (books 4-10, specifically 10)
The author sets up a good vs some sort of cosmic evil force/dark god that is clearly using the Church Universal Triumphant (CUT) for its own ends. The book has the forces of "good" fighting against CUT and it's allies for book after book with the whole purpose of the hero's quest being to acquire a magical sword that will allow them to defeat the evil Prophet guy.
In book 10, the first 2/3 of the book is building up for the final showdown as they are finally pushing CUT back in to their stronghold, leading me to think there will be some sort of epic confrontation with the Prophet. Turns out, nope. The Prophet is basically defeated unceremoniously in a paragraph after they push in as it is revealed that the big cosmic evil actually is working on multiple fronts in the world with a promise that there will be future conflict.
The last 1/3 of the book is just tying up character arcs + world building and setting up for the next arc. Which I actually enjoyed because I really liked this setting.
The problem was that what had been build up for the proceeding 5 books as an epic confrontation was just such an anti climax. Like he could have at least had a more epic show down only for that reveal to happen as the Prophet was on death's door. Some of the minor conflicts and fights that they had against random characters in the series received more coverage than the essential execution of the guy who was supposed to be the primary antagonist.
I don’t know if it’s a trope but I like simple weird futuristic obstacles nobody can explain like an Under the Dome or Wanderes kind of thing. The problem usually arises when an explanation is due but I like the concept. IMO it's actually a sign of great authorship if you manage to write a riveting book in this realm despite the explanation or ending being lackluster (King being the obvious example here). I honestly can't even remember a lot of the endings and while it would be perfection if they tied everything together nicely it matters less when I think about it.
I still really like Spin, by Robert Charles Wilson (2005), where the premise is that three childhood friends witness the stars blinking out one by one, and then time skip, they're adults navigating a world where stars are still gone and no one knows why.
My pet peeve is clumsy exposition, and the worst is when a character explains something to another character who should already know the thing. Give me a fake encyclopedia entry at the start of the chapter or a legitimately ignorant character who actually does need the explanation.
I like sci fi where we are essentially doomed by something that we can’t even fathom. Like maybe another planet crashing into the earth or an alien attack where we can’t even understand their tech. And society collapses. Maybe we end up with an ok ending eventually.
An example book is Lucifer’s Hammer
What I like:
What I dislike:
One in particular that I've had a longstanding love/hate relationship with is the classic Heel-Face Turn. I grew up with the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers during its initial run and the Green With Evil storyline blew my wee mind in a bigger way than any other show I had seen. Since then, I've loved the trope, but only when executed well. Things need to develop organically and make sense within the established narrative. Too often a new character is shoehorned in and it's blatantly obvious they're going to end up joining the heroes, it immediately turns their arc into a slog of inevitability which kills any interest. Same goes for the flipside, which can be even more impactful when done right.