The Future Homes Standard — a set of new-build regulations for England from 2028 — will establish requirements to ensure homes are built with on-site renewable electricity generation, the majority of which is expected to be provided by solar power.
The rules will also see homes built with low-carbon heating, such as heat pumps and heat networks.
Analysts expect the fallout from the Iran war to expedite the shift away from fossil fuels, with countries increasingly recognizing renewables as a way to improve resilience, reduce pollution and mitigate geopolitical risks.
Nice. There are already so many other good reasons to push renewable energy, but if it takes a major geopolitical conflict to make politicians/people see renewables as a strategic resource,...
Nice. There are already so many other good reasons to push renewable energy, but if it takes a major geopolitical conflict to make politicians/people see renewables as a strategic resource, there's at least some positive sideeffect of those I guess.
Is this actually a step towards a major shift to renewable energy in Britain or is there some catch to it?
I don't understand how people don't see solar is more efficient and cost effective than any fossil fuel forms of energy. Not to mention the significant decrease in damage to the planet
I don't understand how people don't see solar is more efficient and cost effective than any fossil fuel forms of energy. Not to mention the significant decrease in damage to the planet
I don’t know anyone who is “against” solar energy. I’m sure that people who earn millions by running fossil fuel companies are, but everyday people? I can see why it hasn’t had larger adoption at...
I don’t know anyone who is “against” solar energy. I’m sure that people who earn millions by running fossil fuel companies are, but everyday people?
I can see why it hasn’t had larger adoption at the residential level though. For individual users, it can be cost prohibitive to install solar on an existing home because of the large upfront cost.
Yeah, especially cause if you put them on the roof, they often times mandate getting a new roof so you won't have to rip the solar panels up to fix the roof in 5 years. Wish I could justify the...
Yeah, especially cause if you put them on the roof, they often times mandate getting a new roof so you won't have to rip the solar panels up to fix the roof in 5 years. Wish I could justify the cost myself right now.
I think it's two reasons. First is that individual solar still costs a lot to purchase and install and efficiency varies a lot based on the amounts of sunlight you get (trees, landscape or taller...
I think it's two reasons. First is that individual solar still costs a lot to purchase and install and efficiency varies a lot based on the amounts of sunlight you get (trees, landscape or taller buildings nearby) - centralized solar in appropriate locations is cheaper than individual rooftop solar.
Second is energy storage. Solar is incredibly cheap as a supplement, but it sucks as a main source because it's not constant, it's dependent on things we cannot influence, while the energy grid needs to be reliable and stable. And energy storage is an unsolved issue. Even just storing energy in batteries overnight almost doubles the cost per kWh (which is still a competitive price), seasonal storage during winter (lowest output + peak energy demand) is just completely financially unviable. Hydroelectric dams are much better for storage, but viable locations are limited. Currently countries with a lot of solar/wind energy production like Germany partially solve this issue by importing energy from other countries (they're the biggest importer in Europe), but that only works because not everyone has such a high proportion of non-firm sources.
I have never understood why we didn't all switch to heat pumps decades ago. Even completely ignoring the renewable / climate-change aspect of it, heat pumps are just magically efficient. You could...
I have never understood why we didn't all switch to heat pumps decades ago. Even completely ignoring the renewable / climate-change aspect of it, heat pumps are just magically efficient. You could literally burn coal to power a power plant to produce the electricity to run a heat pump to heat your house, and it would be 2-4 times more efficient than burning the coal directly in your house.
Furthermore, the technology is basically the same as refrigeration and air conditioning, meaning we have known about heat pumps, and had the option to use them, as long as we've been using refrigerators.
In really cold locations where natural gas is cheap (at least in the US), heat pumps have had a hard time competing because of how much cheaper natural gas is than electricity. That said, paired...
In really cold locations where natural gas is cheap (at least in the US), heat pumps have had a hard time competing because of how much cheaper natural gas is than electricity. That said, paired with a well insulated and well air sealed home they can reach cost parity and even be cheaper than natural gas for heating. But you really have to approach it holistically to get the costs to work out favorably. However if gas prices climb and electricity doesn't increase with it, I think the economics will absolutely continue to favor the heat pumps instead.
I work with heat pumps and heating systems as an engineer. Heat pumps are great, and they do save money on the monthly bill, but they are also significantly more complex, and thus expensive, than...
I work with heat pumps and heating systems as an engineer.
Heat pumps are great, and they do save money on the monthly bill, but they are also significantly more complex, and thus expensive, than a gas boiler. In economic terms, it often is hard to recover the initial added investment.
Furthermore, up until very recently, most heat pumps available on the market were only able to produce water up to a maximum of 60°C. This works ok for heating in many cases, but it is not hot enough for hot water, potentially leading to health and safety concerns.
One other factor is that the comparative size of a heat pump compared to a boiler is huge: a 20 kW boiler you can hang on a wall, and is common in regular homes, while a 20 kW heat pump is a very large unit almost reserved to commercial applications.
The industry is now catching up: most companies now offer high temperature heat pumps that go up to 80°C, and most technical issues holding them back due to their characteristics are being ironed out. Nevertheless, a boiler still remains much easier and cheaper to buy, install and service, so it remains attractive.
I've been in the EU for almost a decade now, but I still think in US construction concepts. (Practically) no one uses water to heat their homes there; air heat thru air ducts is where my mind...
I've been in the EU for almost a decade now, but I still think in US construction concepts. (Practically) no one uses water to heat their homes there; air heat thru air ducts is where my mind goes, which is why this issue you bring up didn't even occur to me.
I looked at installing a heat pump in my apartment, but it would have meant ripping up all the floors to put in underfloor heating, or changing all the radiators (the current ones would be too...
I looked at installing a heat pump in my apartment, but it would have meant ripping up all the floors to put in underfloor heating, or changing all the radiators (the current ones would be too small, designed for hotter water). Apart from that, the cost is enormous and, as the OP mentioned, the size was prohibitive for us, both inside and out. It was the price that was the killer, though. My apartment is not worth enough that it would make sense to sink in the kind of money needed for a heat pump system. It would be like buying a Fiat Punto and replacing all the bodywark with carbon fibre. The kind of buyer buying my place in the future is not looking for a high-end place, it's a bit of a bargain basement kind of deal.
As I understood it, these systems work best by running more or less constantly at a lower operating temperature. In my case, it'd be an air-to-water system, supplying hot water for heating and...
As I understood it, these systems work best by running more or less constantly at a lower operating temperature. In my case, it'd be an air-to-water system, supplying hot water for heating and washing (I'm not sure how you say this in English, actually, I mean to say hot water for stuff in bathrooms (sinks, showers etc.) and kitchens (sinks)).
Anyway, I think underfloor heating, which generally operates over a larger surface area at a lower temperature pairs well with the heat pump's strengths, providing gentle, but constant, heat.
*Edit to add: I assume I don't need to say I'm not a plumber/heat pump installer, right? I guess that comes across pretty clearly :)
Larger surface area and thermal mass, to compensate for smaller temperature differential (bearing in mind a lot of places use hot water running through radiators, not forced air like much of the...
Larger surface area and thermal mass, to compensate for smaller temperature differential (bearing in mind a lot of places use hot water running through radiators, not forced air like much of the US).
Bigger radiators are the more standard option, and not quite such a big job to install as underfloor, but it’s still a pretty significant replacement of the heating system as a whole rather than just the heat source.
Heat pumps cost more than using natural gas. That equation may have changed in recent years, but it's highly dependent on location. Don't worry; if using heat pumps saved money, people would ask...
Heat pumps cost more than using natural gas. That equation may have changed in recent years, but it's highly dependent on location. Don't worry; if using heat pumps saved money, people would ask for it in new builds. That they didn't for decades indicated that the cost was too high.
This part, at least, isn't true. It may be accurate that gas has often been cheaper than heat pumps, but even if it wasn't ... it's like switching to electric cars or fluorescent bulbs. People...
if using heat pumps saved money, people would ask for it in new builds
This part, at least, isn't true. It may be accurate that gas has often been cheaper than heat pumps, but even if it wasn't ... it's like switching to electric cars or fluorescent bulbs. People just keep on using what they're familiar with, long after the new tech has "proven itself".
Was that related to where the technology for heat pumps was at the time? Natural gas in Canada has historically been cheap, so like you said, that's probably the reason for it up here.
Was that related to where the technology for heat pumps was at the time?
Natural gas in Canada has historically been cheap, so like you said, that's probably the reason for it up here.
The most common type of heat pumps are air-to-air, and those have trouble heating a home when the outside temps are very cold; in places like Canada, they often require some small secondary...
The most common type of heat pumps are air-to-air, and those have trouble heating a home when the outside temps are very cold; in places like Canada, they often require some small secondary heating system (usually just radiant) to "keep up" during the coldest weather, and that quickly changes the calculations. There are other types of heat pumps that work fine, no matter how cold it gets outside, but those tend to have higher up-front costs, or other hurdles.
I just had to replace my furnace and did go with the heat pump + auxiliary gas furnace, which with the incredibly cold January we had this year absolutely was both necessary and royally fucked me...
I just had to replace my furnace and did go with the heat pump + auxiliary gas furnace, which with the incredibly cold January we had this year absolutely was both necessary and royally fucked me with increased gas use and large electric price spikes. Combined with basically zero solar in the winter, my December bills have now become a "save all year for this" situation.
Otherwise I'm pretty happy with it, given we're working with a house that was rented for a bit after the recent owner's mom died and remodeled by the owner with a number of "fun" shortcuts. It can sometimes struggle to keep the house up to temp, but the aux furnace will kick in if it's more efficient to do so. Trying to get more windows usable for airflow is my spring goal.
Wow, so the December bills are higher now than when you didn't have the heat pump? Is it because the temperature hovers around the heat pump sweet spot where you live? I've found that in cold...
Wow, so the December bills are higher now than when you didn't have the heat pump? Is it because the temperature hovers around the heat pump sweet spot where you live?
I've found that in cold Prairie temperatures, my gas is on fire most of the winter which hasn't resulted in prices too different from what I paid before.
No, it's really not the heat pump's fault. It was a particularly cold January so the gas had to run a lot and prices (on electricity and gas ) raised about 50%. It's just that I also had a bill...
No, it's really not the heat pump's fault. It was a particularly cold January so the gas had to run a lot and prices (on electricity and gas ) raised about 50%. It's just that I also had a bill for a new furnace that was supposed to result in lower costs. Plus my bill for solar panels.
But not replacing my old furnace would have resulted in probably a catastrophic house fire so you know... Thankfully the power company has a payment plan.
(January is also a particularly bad month for me because we get paid monthly and November and December checks tend to be early due to holidays. So January checks are always 6 weeks after my previous one which shouldn't make a difference but always does.)
Ah yeah, makes sense. We did the heat pump/furnace hybrid installation and just reinsulated the attic and redid the roof, so solar is next up. I get that it's all location dependent, but the...
Ah yeah, makes sense. We did the heat pump/furnace hybrid installation and just reinsulated the attic and redid the roof, so solar is next up.
I get that it's all location dependent, but the possibility that I might pay more than I save in the long run is slightly concerning.
I do think in the long run it is absolutely the right call. At least it was for me. Electricity rates went up pretty sharply in our state and area and my solar payment is locked in. I knew going...
I do think in the long run it is absolutely the right call. At least it was for me. Electricity rates went up pretty sharply in our state and area and my solar payment is locked in. I knew going in (and I did not feel like the solar company did not prepare me for it. They were great but this is my one caveat.) that I was going to have to repair for December bills. That I was going to have to prepare for December bills. And I should have been ready when we had so many super cold days with the rate increases that the bill would actually be higher than the previous year. I was prepped for about the amount of the previous year's bill, not the 50% increase on top of that. By February, bill was much closer and actually a little bit lower than the last years. And we started getting A useful amount of solar this month so we'll see how my March usage balances out.
Good to know. My main concern is that utilities will change their credit scheme and those of us feeding into the grid will be caught holding the bag. Only time will tell.
Good to know. My main concern is that utilities will change their credit scheme and those of us feeding into the grid will be caught holding the bag. Only time will tell.
So, that did happen in Illinois, I'll say because I don't own my panels at the point, the goal for me is paying the locked solar "bill" for what I generate rather than worrying about gaining money...
So, that did happen in Illinois, I'll say because I don't own my panels at the point, the goal for me is paying the locked solar "bill" for what I generate rather than worrying about gaining money back. Because of all that I don't get the tax credits, the solar company does. All of that is fine because it does work out for me in the long run.
But, when IL allowed them to pay less for energy fed into the grid, previous customers were grandfathered in to the existing higher rates. Ymmv with local regulations. I also have a battery that provides outage coverage for severe weather and otherwise covers a portion of my evening electric each day. (Sometimes lasting all night, sometimes not)
I'm under the impression that there were some technical advancements that resulted in them becoming much more viable for heating buildings efficiently over the years. That said, I'm not myself...
I'm under the impression that there were some technical advancements that resulted in them becoming much more viable for heating buildings efficiently over the years. That said, I'm not myself technically knowledgeable enough to know the details there.
I mean, I have a brand new, upper end Bosch heat pump system. When it drops below 27 degrees (edit: Fahrenheit) outside, we have to switch to the natural gas furnace because the heat pump just...
I mean, I have a brand new, upper end Bosch heat pump system. When it drops below 27 degrees (edit: Fahrenheit) outside, we have to switch to the natural gas furnace because the heat pump just stops effectively heating the house. I've done the math and when it's above freezing the heat pump does cost us the same or less (and obviously I really like that it's not burning natural gas), but the winters are increasingly unpredictable here, and we literally would not have survived the 4 straight weeks of sub-20-degree temps (something that did not happen once in my entire childhood living in this town) with only a heat pump.
Via context clues they're probably talking in degrees Fahrenheit rather than Centigrade or Kelvin, but if someone prefers a warmer environment than 27 degrees Celsius they may have to engage a...
Via context clues they're probably talking in degrees Fahrenheit rather than Centigrade or Kelvin, but if someone prefers a warmer environment than 27 degrees Celsius they may have to engage a heater of some sort. Some lizards may benefit from a heat lamp
Nice. There are already so many other good reasons to push renewable energy, but if it takes a major geopolitical conflict to make politicians/people see renewables as a strategic resource, there's at least some positive sideeffect of those I guess.
Is this actually a step towards a major shift to renewable energy in Britain or is there some catch to it?
I don't understand how people don't see solar is more efficient and cost effective than any fossil fuel forms of energy. Not to mention the significant decrease in damage to the planet
I don’t know anyone who is “against” solar energy. I’m sure that people who earn millions by running fossil fuel companies are, but everyday people?
I can see why it hasn’t had larger adoption at the residential level though. For individual users, it can be cost prohibitive to install solar on an existing home because of the large upfront cost.
Yeah, especially cause if you put them on the roof, they often times mandate getting a new roof so you won't have to rip the solar panels up to fix the roof in 5 years. Wish I could justify the cost myself right now.
I think it's two reasons. First is that individual solar still costs a lot to purchase and install and efficiency varies a lot based on the amounts of sunlight you get (trees, landscape or taller buildings nearby) - centralized solar in appropriate locations is cheaper than individual rooftop solar.
Second is energy storage. Solar is incredibly cheap as a supplement, but it sucks as a main source because it's not constant, it's dependent on things we cannot influence, while the energy grid needs to be reliable and stable. And energy storage is an unsolved issue. Even just storing energy in batteries overnight almost doubles the cost per kWh (which is still a competitive price), seasonal storage during winter (lowest output + peak energy demand) is just completely financially unviable. Hydroelectric dams are much better for storage, but viable locations are limited. Currently countries with a lot of solar/wind energy production like Germany partially solve this issue by importing energy from other countries (they're the biggest importer in Europe), but that only works because not everyone has such a high proportion of non-firm sources.
I have never understood why we didn't all switch to heat pumps decades ago. Even completely ignoring the renewable / climate-change aspect of it, heat pumps are just magically efficient. You could literally burn coal to power a power plant to produce the electricity to run a heat pump to heat your house, and it would be 2-4 times more efficient than burning the coal directly in your house.
Furthermore, the technology is basically the same as refrigeration and air conditioning, meaning we have known about heat pumps, and had the option to use them, as long as we've been using refrigerators.
In really cold locations where natural gas is cheap (at least in the US), heat pumps have had a hard time competing because of how much cheaper natural gas is than electricity. That said, paired with a well insulated and well air sealed home they can reach cost parity and even be cheaper than natural gas for heating. But you really have to approach it holistically to get the costs to work out favorably. However if gas prices climb and electricity doesn't increase with it, I think the economics will absolutely continue to favor the heat pumps instead.
I work with heat pumps and heating systems as an engineer.
Heat pumps are great, and they do save money on the monthly bill, but they are also significantly more complex, and thus expensive, than a gas boiler. In economic terms, it often is hard to recover the initial added investment.
Furthermore, up until very recently, most heat pumps available on the market were only able to produce water up to a maximum of 60°C. This works ok for heating in many cases, but it is not hot enough for hot water, potentially leading to health and safety concerns.
One other factor is that the comparative size of a heat pump compared to a boiler is huge: a 20 kW boiler you can hang on a wall, and is common in regular homes, while a 20 kW heat pump is a very large unit almost reserved to commercial applications.
The industry is now catching up: most companies now offer high temperature heat pumps that go up to 80°C, and most technical issues holding them back due to their characteristics are being ironed out. Nevertheless, a boiler still remains much easier and cheaper to buy, install and service, so it remains attractive.
I've been in the EU for almost a decade now, but I still think in US construction concepts. (Practically) no one uses water to heat their homes there; air heat thru air ducts is where my mind goes, which is why this issue you bring up didn't even occur to me.
I looked at installing a heat pump in my apartment, but it would have meant ripping up all the floors to put in underfloor heating, or changing all the radiators (the current ones would be too small, designed for hotter water). Apart from that, the cost is enormous and, as the OP mentioned, the size was prohibitive for us, both inside and out. It was the price that was the killer, though. My apartment is not worth enough that it would make sense to sink in the kind of money needed for a heat pump system. It would be like buying a Fiat Punto and replacing all the bodywark with carbon fibre. The kind of buyer buying my place in the future is not looking for a high-end place, it's a bit of a bargain basement kind of deal.
Why would you need to put in underfloor heating?
As I understood it, these systems work best by running more or less constantly at a lower operating temperature. In my case, it'd be an air-to-water system, supplying hot water for heating and washing (I'm not sure how you say this in English, actually, I mean to say hot water for stuff in bathrooms (sinks, showers etc.) and kitchens (sinks)).
Anyway, I think underfloor heating, which generally operates over a larger surface area at a lower temperature pairs well with the heat pump's strengths, providing gentle, but constant, heat.
*Edit to add: I assume I don't need to say I'm not a plumber/heat pump installer, right? I guess that comes across pretty clearly :)
Larger surface area and thermal mass, to compensate for smaller temperature differential (bearing in mind a lot of places use hot water running through radiators, not forced air like much of the US).
Bigger radiators are the more standard option, and not quite such a big job to install as underfloor, but it’s still a pretty significant replacement of the heating system as a whole rather than just the heat source.
Heat pumps cost more than using natural gas. That equation may have changed in recent years, but it's highly dependent on location. Don't worry; if using heat pumps saved money, people would ask for it in new builds. That they didn't for decades indicated that the cost was too high.
This part, at least, isn't true. It may be accurate that gas has often been cheaper than heat pumps, but even if it wasn't ... it's like switching to electric cars or fluorescent bulbs. People just keep on using what they're familiar with, long after the new tech has "proven itself".
Was that related to where the technology for heat pumps was at the time?
Natural gas in Canada has historically been cheap, so like you said, that's probably the reason for it up here.
The most common type of heat pumps are air-to-air, and those have trouble heating a home when the outside temps are very cold; in places like Canada, they often require some small secondary heating system (usually just radiant) to "keep up" during the coldest weather, and that quickly changes the calculations. There are other types of heat pumps that work fine, no matter how cold it gets outside, but those tend to have higher up-front costs, or other hurdles.
I just had to replace my furnace and did go with the heat pump + auxiliary gas furnace, which with the incredibly cold January we had this year absolutely was both necessary and royally fucked me with increased gas use and large electric price spikes. Combined with basically zero solar in the winter, my December bills have now become a "save all year for this" situation.
Otherwise I'm pretty happy with it, given we're working with a house that was rented for a bit after the recent owner's mom died and remodeled by the owner with a number of "fun" shortcuts. It can sometimes struggle to keep the house up to temp, but the aux furnace will kick in if it's more efficient to do so. Trying to get more windows usable for airflow is my spring goal.
Wow, so the December bills are higher now than when you didn't have the heat pump? Is it because the temperature hovers around the heat pump sweet spot where you live?
I've found that in cold Prairie temperatures, my gas is on fire most of the winter which hasn't resulted in prices too different from what I paid before.
No, it's really not the heat pump's fault. It was a particularly cold January so the gas had to run a lot and prices (on electricity and gas ) raised about 50%. It's just that I also had a bill for a new furnace that was supposed to result in lower costs. Plus my bill for solar panels.
But not replacing my old furnace would have resulted in probably a catastrophic house fire so you know... Thankfully the power company has a payment plan.
(January is also a particularly bad month for me because we get paid monthly and November and December checks tend to be early due to holidays. So January checks are always 6 weeks after my previous one which shouldn't make a difference but always does.)
Ah yeah, makes sense. We did the heat pump/furnace hybrid installation and just reinsulated the attic and redid the roof, so solar is next up.
I get that it's all location dependent, but the possibility that I might pay more than I save in the long run is slightly concerning.
I do think in the long run it is absolutely the right call. At least it was for me. Electricity rates went up pretty sharply in our state and area and my solar payment is locked in. I knew going in (and I did not feel like the solar company did not prepare me for it. They were great but this is my one caveat.) that I was going to have to repair for December bills. That I was going to have to prepare for December bills. And I should have been ready when we had so many super cold days with the rate increases that the bill would actually be higher than the previous year. I was prepped for about the amount of the previous year's bill, not the 50% increase on top of that. By February, bill was much closer and actually a little bit lower than the last years. And we started getting A useful amount of solar this month so we'll see how my March usage balances out.
Edited a voice to text error
Good to know. My main concern is that utilities will change their credit scheme and those of us feeding into the grid will be caught holding the bag. Only time will tell.
So, that did happen in Illinois, I'll say because I don't own my panels at the point, the goal for me is paying the locked solar "bill" for what I generate rather than worrying about gaining money back. Because of all that I don't get the tax credits, the solar company does. All of that is fine because it does work out for me in the long run.
But, when IL allowed them to pay less for energy fed into the grid, previous customers were grandfathered in to the existing higher rates. Ymmv with local regulations. I also have a battery that provides outage coverage for severe weather and otherwise covers a portion of my evening electric each day. (Sometimes lasting all night, sometimes not)
Very helpful things for me to think about. Thanks for the tale!
I'm under the impression that there were some technical advancements that resulted in them becoming much more viable for heating buildings efficiently over the years. That said, I'm not myself technically knowledgeable enough to know the details there.
I mean, I have a brand new, upper end Bosch heat pump system. When it drops below 27 degrees (edit: Fahrenheit) outside, we have to switch to the natural gas furnace because the heat pump just stops effectively heating the house. I've done the math and when it's above freezing the heat pump does cost us the same or less (and obviously I really like that it's not burning natural gas), but the winters are increasingly unpredictable here, and we literally would not have survived the 4 straight weeks of sub-20-degree temps (something that did not happen once in my entire childhood living in this town) with only a heat pump.
Why do you even need heating when it's 27 degrees ?
Via context clues they're probably talking in degrees Fahrenheit rather than Centigrade or Kelvin, but if someone prefers a warmer environment than 27 degrees Celsius they may have to engage a heater of some sort. Some lizards may benefit from a heat lamp
Sorry I was befuddled by the topic being about the UK :-/
No worries just being a bit cheeky!
Yes, sorry, should have specified Fahrenheit. So -3 degrees Celsius.
Works the same with cars: even 100% coal based electricity still is a win. Isn't physics fun? :)