I find it interesting that the comments in this thread are so full of vitriol. I guessing the same commenters are widely supportive of the idea that people suffering from depression should be...
I find it interesting that the comments in this thread are so full of vitriol. I guessing the same commenters are widely supportive of the idea that people suffering from depression should be treated with empathy. From my perspective, people suffering from depression can be equally dangerous and toxic to the people surrounding them.
Why do we express empathy for people with uncontrollable emotions, and not for those lacking emotion? Neither is doing so based on their own choice.
I think you might be putting words into peoples' mouth. I said nothing about people suffering from depression. As a matter of fact, I think people that have depression or bipolar (or whatever...
I think you might be putting words into peoples' mouth. I said nothing about people suffering from depression.
As a matter of fact, I think people that have depression or bipolar (or whatever else) should be held accountable, especially if they are trying to justify their behavior as not their fault or misunderstood.
There is a flip side to this coin that contains all the people and relationships that lie in the wake of justifying a condition, and we're not hearing from any of them in this case. I'd like to hear from the kid that was stabbed by the pencil... how do they feel about this article?
Edit: I can feel my blood boiling a bit, so I'll take it down a notch. Some nerves are a little bit easier to hit.
So it’s a depressed person’s fault if they commit suicide? They felt it was justified I’m sure. What I heard in your comment was a belief that people with mental illness are usually faking it. Let...
So it’s a depressed person’s fault if they commit suicide? They felt it was justified I’m sure.
What I heard in your comment was a belief that people with mental illness are usually faking it. Let me pull out the relevant words here and try a little reframing:
“…all the people and relationships that lie in the wake of justifying a condition…”
Having a condition is diagnosed, not justified. I’m NOT saying there are not lazy assholes who, as my uncle says “just don’t want to work”. But as a guy with lifelong depression… sometimes, when I’m struggling and that phrase comes to mind it makes it worse, not better. It becomes part of the depressive spiral.
A healthy person says: “Yes, of course I don’t want to work. Who the fuck does? Work sucks.” Then you get out of bed and do it anyway. The depressive pulls the blanket over their head, stays in bed, doesn’t eat, and 14 hours later is climbing the walls waiting for tears and the urge to jump off the balcony to pass.
It’s a disorder. It’s a condition. It’s not my fault that that afternoon happened. It is my responsibility to do what needs to be done to prevent it from happening again.
People with depression/bipolar have the burden of trying not to inflict their disorder on the people around them. By saying “you believe they should be held accountable” I interpret that to mean you think otherwise? Do you think people that struggle to hold a job or a relationship or the right balance of brain chemistry don’t know that they are struggling?
Now it’s my turn to head to the time out corner and ponder.
I should notice that the article is about a personality disorder and bipolar is a mood disorder. Mixing personality disorders and mood disorder in the same argument like that is not very sound....
I should notice that the article is about a personality disorder and bipolar is a mood disorder. Mixing personality disorders and mood disorder in the same argument like that is not very sound. They are too dissimilar.
This comment can be applied to the comment above yours as well in regards to depression.
I probably minced words a bit with my comment. I was getting riled up, and typing quickly. I should have probably worded it as "justifying actions" instead of "justifying a condition" I have no...
I probably minced words a bit with my comment. I was getting riled up, and typing quickly. I should have probably worded it as "justifying actions" instead of "justifying a condition"
What I heard in your comment was a belief that people with mental illness are usually faking it.
I have no idea how this came from what I posted. It's quite frankly the opposite of what I actually believe. I believe people suffering from mental illnesses have an incredibly tough battle ahead, because there is so much potential for accidental harm to be done. I also know that this can weigh heavy on the mind and soul, and probably contributes to suicide and self harm.
What got me riled up about the original article is that the author seemed to imply that all was well once she came to an internal understanding of her condition. Maybe it was the brevity of the article, but It seemed like she went from "I stabbed a kid with a pencil" to "but everything is fine now because I understand it" very flippantly. As someone who has been on the receiving end of the figurative pencil, it reads a lot like shirking the responsibility for those past actions.
I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I was getting a bit triggered and definitely didn't take enough time or care with my response. Hopefully I've cleared some of my intentions up a bit.
I don't want to put words into mattw2121's mouth, but I had a similar reaction to the comments as theirs. I don't think they're saying that sociopaths shouldn't be immune from consequences, but...
I don't want to put words into mattw2121's mouth, but I had a similar reaction to the comments as theirs. I don't think they're saying that sociopaths shouldn't be immune from consequences, but that they are also people who have value. Depressed people can't control their depression and didn't choose to be depressed; similarly, sociopathic people can't control their lack of empathy and didn't choose that condition.
I've been thinking about this a bit this afternoon and thought of lions as an analogy. Lions are dangerous and it would be incredibly foolish to try to live with one. However, they are living beings like any other and have a right to live their lives. How to do that? I don't think there's an easy answer. Switching back to sociopathic humans, and I think it's even trickier. But assuming they haven't harmed anyone, they aren't bad people. They simply suffer a condition like any other.
Then again, anyone who has lived with a lion has every reason to think of them as evil, and any chance they get to discuss lions, they'll probably sound like they think the creatures have no right to live. It's only people like me, who have only seen lions in zoos and learned about them in safe places, who can discuss them without emotions.
I think a lot of the posts are conflating accountability with empathy, and to some degree we are running up against the limits of empathy itself. I can 100% empathize with someone out of their...
I think a lot of the posts are conflating accountability with empathy, and to some degree we are running up against the limits of empathy itself.
I can 100% empathize with someone out of their depth in a social situation. I imagine myself having to speak at a funeral for someone I didn't know very well or even like, and I think that may come close. I want to care, but I just don't. This is only what I imagine, as I can't really 100% be in their shoes. But It fits with the spirit of empathy. I imagine it must be scary for someone that can't feel empathy. Embarrassing maybe? I'm not sure.
But being thrust into this situation against your will doesn't give you carte blanche to walk up to the podium and start trash talking the deceased. And doing something like that is bound to make people in general a lot less sympathetic.
I think we're seeing in this thread a certain divide between people that may have had some experiences that hit close to home, and those who haven't. It can be very hard to stay impartial when you are directly impacted.
Updated: edited a bit to make my thoughts more clear.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. What I continue to be perplexed about is that only one of these two statements is socially acceptable. My partner was a sociopath. Living with them traumatized...
I think we're seeing in this thread a certain divide between people that may have had some experiences that hit close to home, and it can be very hard to stay impartial in those cases.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. What I continue to be perplexed about is that only one of these two statements is socially acceptable.
My partner was a sociopath. Living with them traumatized me. Every day was a living hell and I wish they'd go to hell themselves.
My partner was depressed. Living with them traumatized me. Every day was a living hell and I wish they'd go to hell themselves.
I can promise you that I'm only discussing this in good faith and I have no ill will. I'll refrain from further discussions with you on this so if/when our paths cross again neither of us hold any...
I can promise you that I'm only discussing this in good faith and I have no ill will.
I'll refrain from further discussions with you on this so if/when our paths cross again neither of us hold any grudges against the other :).
I honestly think it stems from the disconnect in language between discussing people with ASPD and normal discussions of groups we're used to having online. Your presuppositions that people with...
I honestly think it stems from the disconnect in language between discussing people with ASPD and normal discussions of groups we're used to having online.
Your presuppositions that people with ASPD "cannot have real relationships", the general assertions towards machiavellian tendencies, that they "don't give a fuck who they harm", or claiming that their outreaches for sympathy and acknowledgement are all manipulations, trigger all the usual detectors we use in online conversation to identify people who are dehumanizing others and acting in bad faith. That brings forth all sorts of defensive emotions inside of us even though in the specific topic of ASPD those can be much more rational positions to hold and aren't necessarily born of hate or generalizations, they're merely symptoms of the disease.
I honestly got the same sort of "bad vibes" from your comments that tripped my usual reactions like "we can't assume what's going in their head" or "every person is deserving of empathy". Your openness to share past trauma also unfortunately feeds into that as it makes your assertions seem more emotion based than logic based and leans a bit harder into the harsh language. On reflection though I don't entirely disagree with a lot of what you've said, it just requires holding ideas about people we're not usually comfortable with holding in other circumstances.
My only caveat would be that if ASPD truly is present on a spectrum, the rejection of any thought of them developing any type of relationship or holding any sort of values (even to a lesser extent), still comes across as dehumanizing a bit. Albeit not in bad faith whatsoever if the position that ASPD people do not have any inkling of those feelings is held honestly. I always try to err on the side of people being more complex than I might initially assume though.
Who knows, I hope this helps at all in explaining my perspective on any combativeness you're picking up throughout these comments. I do encourage you to step away from this thread if you feel it's reigniting any trauma however, I've been through experiences with a similar person I suspect may have had ASPD so I sympathize with your other comment quite a bit.
As always to anyone reading this as this thread is running a bit hotter, remember to assume good faith in everyone we interact with on here.
This is a very good reminder. I've had to check myself a couple times today. It's funny I was just reading the post about how polite the discussions are here at tildes, and someone brought up...
As always to anyone reading this as this thread is running a bit hotter, remember to assume good faith in everyone we interact with on here.
This is a very good reminder. I've had to check myself a couple times today. It's funny I was just reading the post about how polite the discussions are here at tildes, and someone brought up having to be told to dial it back. At the time I thought "wow, how did it get that far" and here I am totally understanding how it could in my own self. For my part, I appreciate the discussion in this post from differing views.
JackA gives a lot of details that seem to match what I reacted to; really, though, I just got a general 'mood' from the comments that sociopathic folks were being maligned. I didn't notice...
JackA gives a lot of details that seem to match what I reacted to; really, though, I just got a general 'mood' from the comments that sociopathic folks were being maligned. I didn't notice anyone's comments in particular (though Tildes' layout in general means that I don't always pay attention to who's writing a comment), just a vague feeling that these people weren't being given respect. I hadn't planned to say anything about it, though, until someone else mentioned it and I thought I could help clarify the point. You made it clear that you'd had some terrible experiences with someone in particular, and it was pretty clear that those experiences influenced your opinion. I think that's totally understandable even if it isn't optimal.
Agreed. But the rest of your message basically says, "I can forgive people with depression, but not people with ASPD." Sorry, for the extreme summarization, but just expressing my take away from...
But not possessing empathy doesn't just magically remove culpability for one's actions, just like being depressed doesn't remove culpability.
Agreed. But the rest of your message basically says, "I can forgive people with depression, but not people with ASPD."
Sorry, for the extreme summarization, but just expressing my take away from your words.
That's what I don't understand. You can agree that both people with depression and those with ASPD have these conditions through no fault of their own. You agree that both are culpable for their actions. Yet, you have empathy for one and not the other.
That seems like a drastic oversimplification of what they were saying. I think maybe you should give this one a rest. You might not be intending to do it, but a lot of what you're saying is coming...
That seems like a drastic oversimplification of what they were saying.
I think maybe you should give this one a rest. You might not be intending to do it, but a lot of what you're saying is coming across as 'Just Asking Questions'. And as you say yourself, you've engaged in 'extreme summarization.' Despite your protestations of good faith, it seems a lot like you're trolling, as you're just saying the same thing over and over again, and asking different variants of the same thing to try and get people on the same page as you.
If you are engaging in this discussion in good faith, I'd say that your desire to boil complex concepts and experiences down into simplistic equivalencies doesn't take into account the nuance of the subject matter. Perhaps instead of persisting with prosecuting this endpoint of 'people should have empathy for people with depression and those with ASPD', it might be better to do some reading on the disorder.
As an outsider, reading through this, it seems as if you're badgering people with actual experience dealing with this. It also seems a lot like you're twisting what they're saying to try and suit an argument that I really don't think needs to be pursued - certainly not to the point of causing upset and aggravation.
I don’t have much personal experience with people with ASPD. But I would assume you can raise them such they have strong values they are aligned with regardless of emotional responses. I feel I...
I don’t have much personal experience with people with ASPD. But I would assume you can raise them such they have strong values they are aligned with regardless of emotional responses. I feel I often do things that are the right thing not because I’ll feel guilty if I don’t, but because I was indoctrinated into seeking virtue with regards to the moral framework I was indoctrinated into. I’m probably missing something, but people often stick to the rails they were put on in childhood for the rest of their lives. So it should be possible to do this with sociopaths.
On the flip side, couldn't we say that people with depression could be "indoctrinated" to "man it up"? I.e., not let their emotions get the better of them? I certainly was taught that.
On the flip side, couldn't we say that people with depression could be "indoctrinated" to "man it up"? I.e., not let their emotions get the better of them? I certainly was taught that.
I think it depends what you’re trying to measure. Indoctrination can affect someone’s outward behavior. That’s what we are worried about with sociopaths. Depression is often a disease that mostly...
I think it depends what you’re trying to measure. Indoctrination can affect someone’s outward behavior. That’s what we are worried about with sociopaths. Depression is often a disease that mostly manifests internally. It’s also fixable unlike ASPD.
I strongly disagree that depression "mostly manifests internally". I've lived with and around people suffering from depression and it is certainly something that takes a large toll on those around...
I strongly disagree that depression "mostly manifests internally". I've lived with and around people suffering from depression and it is certainly something that takes a large toll on those around the person suffering.
As for ASPD not being fixable, I also disagree. Just because someone doesn't have emotions, or regret about something, doesn't toss their logic out the window. They can certainly change behavior to fit in with acceptable society. I think you might be surprised how many people living somewhere on the spectrum of ASPD are around you every day and you think they are perfectly normal and nice people.
Sorry I was speaking from my personal experience with depression. All that about fixing ASPD is essentially what I’m wondering about. You should be able to talk them into good behavior, better to...
Sorry I was speaking from my personal experience with depression.
All that about fixing ASPD is essentially what I’m wondering about. You should be able to talk them into good behavior, better to do so young than as an adult. But I do not think this is a fix. They still have no empathy.
100% agree with you. Pardon my ignorance, but based my understanding of depression, I thought there was not a cure for depression. My understanding is that people are taught how to manage it. If...
100% agree with you.
Pardon my ignorance, but based my understanding of depression, I thought there was not a cure for depression. My understanding is that people are taught how to manage it.
If that's correct, then each disorder/disease is in the same boat.
I think it depends on the case, and the other commenter is right that there's no guarantee symptoms won't return. But I found therapy, lifestyle changes, and psychedelics to be a pretty successful...
I thought there was not a cure for depression.
I think it depends on the case, and the other commenter is right that there's no guarantee symptoms won't return. But I found therapy, lifestyle changes, and psychedelics to be a pretty successful treatment and am effectively cured (at least for the short term).
If that's correct, then each disorder/disease is in the same boat.
I do not think this follows. A disorder/disease could be anything. They have nothing in common other than they cause problems. So their behavior and ability to be cured or treated will not necessarily have consistent rules of behavior.
I'm more interested in why people's response to each condition varies. If we believe both to be true: Depression is not a choice. People with depression can be dangerous and toxic to people close...
I'm more interested in why people's response to each condition varies.
If we believe both to be true:
Depression is not a choice. People with depression can be dangerous and toxic to people close to them. Some people with depression are helped with therapy and can keep things under control.
ASPD is not a choice. People with ASPD can be dangerous and toxic to people close to them. Some people with depression are helped with therapy and can keep things under control.
Why does the general response to people with ASPD lean towards hatred and the general response for depression lean towards sympathy?
If you want a genuine answer, in very simple terms that might help you understand: more people have lived experiences of being fucked over by people with ASPD. The clue is in the name of the...
If you want a genuine answer, in very simple terms that might help you understand: more people have lived experiences of being fucked over by people with ASPD. The clue is in the name of the disorder.
Your desire to equate Major Depression and ASPD comes across as very reductive and bizarre. If you can't read the DSM entries for each and parse why people might have negative feelings towards individuals with ASPD, especially those who have dealt with individuals with ASPD, I don't think any more reframing of your 'why aren't they the same?' question is going to help you understand.
Part of it is that the overt acts of people with ASPD tend to be things we generally consider reprehensible. Living with someone with major depression can cause suffering, much as living with...
Part of it is that the overt acts of people with ASPD tend to be things we generally consider reprehensible.
Living with someone with major depression can cause suffering, much as living with someone succumbing to dementia can cause suffering. The person with major depressive disorder however does not act out in the ways someone with ASPD does. The person with major depressive disorder feels regret, remorse if they recognize that they hurt someone and will express it and try to make amends
I agree, and I see it as it dates back to our instinctual needs for a community that works together for everyone's benefit. If someone accidentally takes the last bread that was saved for the...
I agree, and I see it as it dates back to our instinctual needs for a community that works together for everyone's benefit. If someone accidentally takes the last bread that was saved for the needier, it is imperative they feel bad for that, so it will likely activate guilt/integrity, which will drive them to replace the bread... aka making up for their mistake.
I'm not sure that the same community would trust their neediest's survival to a person with no empathy, if a lack of empathy could mean a lesser chance of guilt/integrity being activated, since instead of it being automatically activated by (natural) empathetic emotion, it's activated by (medically/socially prescribed) disciplinary actions (if you cause x problem to happen, you should do y). Now, the question in my head has boiled down to: Which is a stronger driving force for achieving social cooperation in this instinctually inspired hypothetical scenario: personally felt emotions or practiced & learned disciplinary actions?
For me, in my experience, emotion is much much stronger. I care more for alleviating my own pain more often than doing something that arguably could be seen the same as doing something charitable just because others expect it of you. Ofc this is me trying to figure out what ASPD people feel in a scenario like this, which I don't have ASPD. So, ironically, I can't empathize. So take my comments with a grain of salt. I could be wildly off.
On a side note, this would be another reason why empathy is so crucial to the human community. We need to be able to figure out proper and reasonable responses to thousands of issues, and most would require this kind of nuanced empathy. I'm afraid therapeutic social lessons and discipline might not help as well as empathy. Anyway...
Charity is seen as something that is of no obligation but would be nice if done. A person might tend to be irate if others expect "charity" from them on a regular basis, and add in the fact that these same people are also saying the person is mentally ill (+ charged sayings like "broken" "evil" etc) for not naturally wanting to donate, since everyone else does when they realize they took the needy's bread.
This "charity," however, can also be seen with severe cases of depression, where the person has to receive disability benefits from the government. Maybe it then comes down to regulating which things and how much the ASPD person might just take (emotionally and materially) vs. in a democracy (aka my POV), people would be able to choose what, if anything, and how much is given to the depressed person.
Idk. It's clear now that judgment should be a case-by-case basis, which makes it difficult (especially as a non-ASPD) to figure out how to instinctively feel about ASPD people, and to decide my moral standing on them. I can, of course, understand the trauma that comes with socializing with an ASPD person (and an MDD person). But the bulk of this whole comment is only really relating to how I understand human instincts to be when living in a community. And some human instincts, as we know, are terrible (i.e., "us vs. them").
I'm currently reading the Bonobo and the Atheist the Search for Humanism Amongst the Primates by Frans de Waal. He finds the roots of our ethical systems in primate behavior and consistent...
I'm currently reading the Bonobo and the Atheist the Search for Humanism Amongst the Primates by Frans de Waal. He finds the roots of our ethical systems in primate behavior and consistent preferences. I think your comment points to some very significant factors.
I'm going way off topic here I think, but it's a common trope in media to examine how frameworks such as these can go sideways. The most immediate examples for me being the show Dexter, and...
I'm going way off topic here I think, but it's a common trope in media to examine how frameworks such as these can go sideways. The most immediate examples for me being the show Dexter, and Ozymandias from The Watchmen. Somehow the values get twisted into still producing a wrong, if even for the right reasons. Obviously this is a dramatic and probably overly pessimistic view. But the thought had occurred to me that a lot of how we see reality is shaped by the media we consume. This thread is giving me a lot to think about.
The answer is complex. Part of this is a virtue-signaling impulse that some people have to "correct" those with non-empathetic behavior toward more normative behavior, which is a good impulse in a...
The answer is complex. Part of this is a virtue-signaling impulse that some people have to "correct" those with non-empathetic behavior toward more normative behavior, which is a good impulse in a direct confrontation scenario where that lack of empathy has a negative impact toward them, but is a bit repulsive as a reaction to "secondhand" sociopathic behavior. Sometimes, especially in situations where a utilitarian approach is advantageous, we need sociopaths, and there will always be sociopaths among us. People trying to "correct" them will not make that go away. That being said, there are situations where we need people with empathy to step in to prevent human harm, so it's important to react situationally to this kind of thinking.
Not who you asked, but I don't believe we do. Non-sociopaths are perfectly capable of making tough decisions and calculating the impact of their actions. The things we do need sociopaths for are...
Not who you asked, but I don't believe we do. Non-sociopaths are perfectly capable of making tough decisions and calculating the impact of their actions. The things we do need sociopaths for are things of dubious utility that we probably shouldn't be doing, such as torture, execution, war, etc.
A sociopath will default to whatever benefit them to the detriment of the collective.
Maybe 'need' was the wrong word here, but we cannot get rid of them or cast them off into some dark corner of society, so what do we do with them? Might as well use them in situations like...
Maybe 'need' was the wrong word here, but we cannot get rid of them or cast them off into some dark corner of society, so what do we do with them? Might as well use them in situations like zero-sum games and other places where that lack of empathy can help us collectively rather than the mental "block" empathy can create in certain scenarios.
The title may be a bit click baity, but it is what the authors and wsj went with. The piece offered an insightful (if short) look into this woman’s experience with antisocial personality disorder...
Patric Gagne is a writer, former therapist and advocate for people suffering from sociopathic, psychopathic and antisocial personality disorders. This essay is adapted from her book, “Sociopath: A Memoir,” which will be published April 2 by Simon & Schuster.
The title may be a bit click baity, but it is what the authors and wsj went with. The piece offered an insightful (if short) look into this woman’s experience with antisocial personality disorder aka “sociopath” which can a loaded or misunderstood term.
Some people lack pain receptors and don't notice when they inevitably hurt themselves. They live with great risk and inevitable injuries and burns. Someone who lacks capacity for regret or remorse...
Some people lack pain receptors and don't notice when they inevitably hurt themselves. They live with great risk and inevitable injuries and burns.
Someone who lacks capacity for regret or remorse or empathy is as dangerous as any severely venemous creature. It doesn't matter that the condition is not their fault. They are objectively dangerous to deal with.
Edit, if anyone is unhappy about the use of venomous, I can make a similar comparison to short tempered unpredictable creatures like hippo and buffalo, or to predators that don't care like crocodiles
I think your analogy is great. We're not talking about a level playing field here. There are lines we don't cross when we can put ourselves in the shoes of others, and those lines don't exist for...
I think your analogy is great. We're not talking about a level playing field here. There are lines we don't cross when we can put ourselves in the shoes of others, and those lines don't exist for people without empathy. Sure some of this can be mitigated by learned behavior changes and routine, but there will always be edge cases. It's important to understand that.
Hm, given the overwhelmingly negative response it seems unlikely someone would disclose it themselves. Do you think it would be helpful to have a registry or something to identify people with ASPD?
Hm, given the overwhelmingly negative response it seems unlikely someone would disclose it themselves. Do you think it would be helpful to have a registry or something to identify people with ASPD?
This question took me by surprise. There is a huge difference between proceeding cautiously with relationships regarding potentially toxic people and wanting all toxic people to be identified and...
This question took me by surprise. There is a huge difference between proceeding cautiously with relationships regarding potentially toxic people and wanting all toxic people to be identified and tracked.
Do you know if ASPD is a protected disability in terms of the workplace? Because that could cause... a lot of problems. Edit: I know you said you wouldn't work for them, it's just that your...
Do you know if ASPD is a protected disability in terms of the workplace? Because that could cause... a lot of problems.
Edit: I know you said you wouldn't work for them, it's just that your comment made me wonder the other way around.
To clarify, I wouldn't accept any relationship with them where they had power or influence over me outside of the public view. Hiring an aspd person might be strategically a good move in certain...
To clarify, I wouldn't accept any relationship with them where they had power or influence over me outside of the public view.
Hiring an aspd person might be strategically a good move in certain roles, but the manager caries a lot of responsiblity to prevent and or mitigate harm
There's no list of protected disabilities for the ADA - if your boss thinks (rightly or wrongly) that you have ASPD and discriminates against you or harasses you for it, that'd be illegal...
There's no list of protected disabilities for the ADA - if your boss thinks (rightly or wrongly) that you have ASPD and discriminates against you or harasses you for it, that'd be illegal (depending on the number of employees). If you, idk, steal from the company and cite your ASPD as why, it's almost certainly not a reasonable accommodation to allow you to keep working there.
But I've never personally heard of a case involving personality disorders and the ADA so I'm not sure it's ever gone to court. I am also not a disability rights lawyer so not an expert.
I think there's a good reason some people with ASPD are public about it. It gives them layers of cover to defend their behavior. "You knew who I was." "It's a condition, it's not my fault." etc....
I think there's a good reason some people with ASPD are public about it. It gives them layers of cover to defend their behavior. "You knew who I was." "It's a condition, it's not my fault." etc. Without it they're just an uncaring asshole. With it, there's a whole medicalized discussion to be had about their behavior that doesn't actually involve them seeing consequences for it.
Looks fine to me. It's a very short article and it does end abruptly. This is the last paragraph:
Looks fine to me. It's a very short article and it does end abruptly. This is the last paragraph:
Patric Gagne is a writer, former therapist and advocate for people suffering from sociopathic, psychopathic and antisocial personality disorders. This essay is adapted from her book, “Sociopath: A Memoir,” which will be published April 2 by Simon & Schuster.
Weird. I see the article ending right around talking about her baptist church (where the text starts to overlap the WSJ footer) Shows up weird on both the Three Cheers app and when I open the link...
Weird. I see the article ending right around talking about her baptist church (where the text starts to overlap the WSJ footer)
Shows up weird on both the Three Cheers app and when I open the link in Firefox
I'm also on my phone so I don't know if that's the issue
Looks fine for me on Firefox and Chrome on Desktop (Win10). The only issue I know of with Archive.today (and its mirrors) is Cloudflare DNS messing it up, but that usually results in a CAPTCHA...
Looks fine for me on Firefox and Chrome on Desktop (Win10). The only issue I know of with Archive.today (and its mirrors) is Cloudflare DNS messing it up, but that usually results in a CAPTCHA loop and not being able to access the archive at all... not a missing portion of the article.
I find it interesting that the comments in this thread are so full of vitriol. I guessing the same commenters are widely supportive of the idea that people suffering from depression should be treated with empathy. From my perspective, people suffering from depression can be equally dangerous and toxic to the people surrounding them.
Why do we express empathy for people with uncontrollable emotions, and not for those lacking emotion? Neither is doing so based on their own choice.
I think you might be putting words into peoples' mouth. I said nothing about people suffering from depression.
As a matter of fact, I think people that have depression or bipolar (or whatever else) should be held accountable, especially if they are trying to justify their behavior as not their fault or misunderstood.
There is a flip side to this coin that contains all the people and relationships that lie in the wake of justifying a condition, and we're not hearing from any of them in this case. I'd like to hear from the kid that was stabbed by the pencil... how do they feel about this article?
Edit: I can feel my blood boiling a bit, so I'll take it down a notch. Some nerves are a little bit easier to hit.
Thank you. I appreciate your response and the even handed-ness with which you are applying things.
So it’s a depressed person’s fault if they commit suicide? They felt it was justified I’m sure.
What I heard in your comment was a belief that people with mental illness are usually faking it. Let me pull out the relevant words here and try a little reframing:
“…all the people and relationships that lie in the wake of justifying a condition…”
Having a condition is diagnosed, not justified. I’m NOT saying there are not lazy assholes who, as my uncle says “just don’t want to work”. But as a guy with lifelong depression… sometimes, when I’m struggling and that phrase comes to mind it makes it worse, not better. It becomes part of the depressive spiral.
A healthy person says: “Yes, of course I don’t want to work. Who the fuck does? Work sucks.” Then you get out of bed and do it anyway. The depressive pulls the blanket over their head, stays in bed, doesn’t eat, and 14 hours later is climbing the walls waiting for tears and the urge to jump off the balcony to pass.
It’s a disorder. It’s a condition. It’s not my fault that that afternoon happened. It is my responsibility to do what needs to be done to prevent it from happening again.
People with depression/bipolar have the burden of trying not to inflict their disorder on the people around them. By saying “you believe they should be held accountable” I interpret that to mean you think otherwise? Do you think people that struggle to hold a job or a relationship or the right balance of brain chemistry don’t know that they are struggling?
Now it’s my turn to head to the time out corner and ponder.
Before I go though, I really enjoyed this other article by her, and it paints a really interesting picture of her working with what she has to try and figure out what normal is: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/16/style/modern-love-he-married-a-sociopath-me.html
I should notice that the article is about a personality disorder and bipolar is a mood disorder. Mixing personality disorders and mood disorder in the same argument like that is not very sound. They are too dissimilar.
This comment can be applied to the comment above yours as well in regards to depression.
I probably minced words a bit with my comment. I was getting riled up, and typing quickly. I should have probably worded it as "justifying actions" instead of "justifying a condition"
I have no idea how this came from what I posted. It's quite frankly the opposite of what I actually believe. I believe people suffering from mental illnesses have an incredibly tough battle ahead, because there is so much potential for accidental harm to be done. I also know that this can weigh heavy on the mind and soul, and probably contributes to suicide and self harm.
What got me riled up about the original article is that the author seemed to imply that all was well once she came to an internal understanding of her condition. Maybe it was the brevity of the article, but It seemed like she went from "I stabbed a kid with a pencil" to "but everything is fine now because I understand it" very flippantly. As someone who has been on the receiving end of the figurative pencil, it reads a lot like shirking the responsibility for those past actions.
I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I was getting a bit triggered and definitely didn't take enough time or care with my response. Hopefully I've cleared some of my intentions up a bit.
I don't want to put words into mattw2121's mouth, but I had a similar reaction to the comments as theirs. I don't think they're saying that sociopaths shouldn't be immune from consequences, but that they are also people who have value. Depressed people can't control their depression and didn't choose to be depressed; similarly, sociopathic people can't control their lack of empathy and didn't choose that condition.
I've been thinking about this a bit this afternoon and thought of lions as an analogy. Lions are dangerous and it would be incredibly foolish to try to live with one. However, they are living beings like any other and have a right to live their lives. How to do that? I don't think there's an easy answer. Switching back to sociopathic humans, and I think it's even trickier. But assuming they haven't harmed anyone, they aren't bad people. They simply suffer a condition like any other.
Then again, anyone who has lived with a lion has every reason to think of them as evil, and any chance they get to discuss lions, they'll probably sound like they think the creatures have no right to live. It's only people like me, who have only seen lions in zoos and learned about them in safe places, who can discuss them without emotions.
I think a lot of the posts are conflating accountability with empathy, and to some degree we are running up against the limits of empathy itself.
I can 100% empathize with someone out of their depth in a social situation. I imagine myself having to speak at a funeral for someone I didn't know very well or even like, and I think that may come close. I want to care, but I just don't. This is only what I imagine, as I can't really 100% be in their shoes. But It fits with the spirit of empathy. I imagine it must be scary for someone that can't feel empathy. Embarrassing maybe? I'm not sure.
But being thrust into this situation against your will doesn't give you carte blanche to walk up to the podium and start trash talking the deceased. And doing something like that is bound to make people in general a lot less sympathetic.
I think we're seeing in this thread a certain divide between people that may have had some experiences that hit close to home, and those who haven't. It can be very hard to stay impartial when you are directly impacted.
Updated: edited a bit to make my thoughts more clear.
Thanks for your thoughts on this. What I continue to be perplexed about is that only one of these two statements is socially acceptable.
My partner was a sociopath. Living with them traumatized me. Every day was a living hell and I wish they'd go to hell themselves.
My partner was depressed. Living with them traumatized me. Every day was a living hell and I wish they'd go to hell themselves.
I can promise you that I'm only discussing this in good faith and I have no ill will.
I'll refrain from further discussions with you on this so if/when our paths cross again neither of us hold any grudges against the other :).
I honestly think it stems from the disconnect in language between discussing people with ASPD and normal discussions of groups we're used to having online.
Your presuppositions that people with ASPD "cannot have real relationships", the general assertions towards machiavellian tendencies, that they "don't give a fuck who they harm", or claiming that their outreaches for sympathy and acknowledgement are all manipulations, trigger all the usual detectors we use in online conversation to identify people who are dehumanizing others and acting in bad faith. That brings forth all sorts of defensive emotions inside of us even though in the specific topic of ASPD those can be much more rational positions to hold and aren't necessarily born of hate or generalizations, they're merely symptoms of the disease.
I honestly got the same sort of "bad vibes" from your comments that tripped my usual reactions like "we can't assume what's going in their head" or "every person is deserving of empathy". Your openness to share past trauma also unfortunately feeds into that as it makes your assertions seem more emotion based than logic based and leans a bit harder into the harsh language. On reflection though I don't entirely disagree with a lot of what you've said, it just requires holding ideas about people we're not usually comfortable with holding in other circumstances.
My only caveat would be that if ASPD truly is present on a spectrum, the rejection of any thought of them developing any type of relationship or holding any sort of values (even to a lesser extent), still comes across as dehumanizing a bit. Albeit not in bad faith whatsoever if the position that ASPD people do not have any inkling of those feelings is held honestly. I always try to err on the side of people being more complex than I might initially assume though.
Who knows, I hope this helps at all in explaining my perspective on any combativeness you're picking up throughout these comments. I do encourage you to step away from this thread if you feel it's reigniting any trauma however, I've been through experiences with a similar person I suspect may have had ASPD so I sympathize with your other comment quite a bit.
As always to anyone reading this as this thread is running a bit hotter, remember to assume good faith in everyone we interact with on here.
This is a very good reminder. I've had to check myself a couple times today. It's funny I was just reading the post about how polite the discussions are here at tildes, and someone brought up having to be told to dial it back. At the time I thought "wow, how did it get that far" and here I am totally understanding how it could in my own self. For my part, I appreciate the discussion in this post from differing views.
JackA gives a lot of details that seem to match what I reacted to; really, though, I just got a general 'mood' from the comments that sociopathic folks were being maligned. I didn't notice anyone's comments in particular (though Tildes' layout in general means that I don't always pay attention to who's writing a comment), just a vague feeling that these people weren't being given respect. I hadn't planned to say anything about it, though, until someone else mentioned it and I thought I could help clarify the point. You made it clear that you'd had some terrible experiences with someone in particular, and it was pretty clear that those experiences influenced your opinion. I think that's totally understandable even if it isn't optimal.
Agreed. But the rest of your message basically says, "I can forgive people with depression, but not people with ASPD."
Sorry, for the extreme summarization, but just expressing my take away from your words.
That's what I don't understand. You can agree that both people with depression and those with ASPD have these conditions through no fault of their own. You agree that both are culpable for their actions. Yet, you have empathy for one and not the other.
That seems like a drastic oversimplification of what they were saying.
I think maybe you should give this one a rest. You might not be intending to do it, but a lot of what you're saying is coming across as 'Just Asking Questions'. And as you say yourself, you've engaged in 'extreme summarization.' Despite your protestations of good faith, it seems a lot like you're trolling, as you're just saying the same thing over and over again, and asking different variants of the same thing to try and get people on the same page as you.
If you are engaging in this discussion in good faith, I'd say that your desire to boil complex concepts and experiences down into simplistic equivalencies doesn't take into account the nuance of the subject matter. Perhaps instead of persisting with prosecuting this endpoint of 'people should have empathy for people with depression and those with ASPD', it might be better to do some reading on the disorder.
As an outsider, reading through this, it seems as if you're badgering people with actual experience dealing with this. It also seems a lot like you're twisting what they're saying to try and suit an argument that I really don't think needs to be pursued - certainly not to the point of causing upset and aggravation.
I don’t have much personal experience with people with ASPD. But I would assume you can raise them such they have strong values they are aligned with regardless of emotional responses. I feel I often do things that are the right thing not because I’ll feel guilty if I don’t, but because I was indoctrinated into seeking virtue with regards to the moral framework I was indoctrinated into. I’m probably missing something, but people often stick to the rails they were put on in childhood for the rest of their lives. So it should be possible to do this with sociopaths.
On the flip side, couldn't we say that people with depression could be "indoctrinated" to "man it up"? I.e., not let their emotions get the better of them? I certainly was taught that.
I think it depends what you’re trying to measure. Indoctrination can affect someone’s outward behavior. That’s what we are worried about with sociopaths. Depression is often a disease that mostly manifests internally. It’s also fixable unlike ASPD.
I strongly disagree that depression "mostly manifests internally". I've lived with and around people suffering from depression and it is certainly something that takes a large toll on those around the person suffering.
As for ASPD not being fixable, I also disagree. Just because someone doesn't have emotions, or regret about something, doesn't toss their logic out the window. They can certainly change behavior to fit in with acceptable society. I think you might be surprised how many people living somewhere on the spectrum of ASPD are around you every day and you think they are perfectly normal and nice people.
https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/
"Evidence suggests behaviour can improve over time with therapy, even if core characteristics such as lack of empathy remain. "
Sorry I was speaking from my personal experience with depression.
All that about fixing ASPD is essentially what I’m wondering about. You should be able to talk them into good behavior, better to do so young than as an adult. But I do not think this is a fix. They still have no empathy.
100% agree with you.
Pardon my ignorance, but based my understanding of depression, I thought there was not a cure for depression. My understanding is that people are taught how to manage it.
If that's correct, then each disorder/disease is in the same boat.
I think it depends on the case, and the other commenter is right that there's no guarantee symptoms won't return. But I found therapy, lifestyle changes, and psychedelics to be a pretty successful treatment and am effectively cured (at least for the short term).
I do not think this follows. A disorder/disease could be anything. They have nothing in common other than they cause problems. So their behavior and ability to be cured or treated will not necessarily have consistent rules of behavior.
I'm more interested in why people's response to each condition varies.
If we believe both to be true:
Depression is not a choice. People with depression can be dangerous and toxic to people close to them. Some people with depression are helped with therapy and can keep things under control.
ASPD is not a choice. People with ASPD can be dangerous and toxic to people close to them. Some people with depression are helped with therapy and can keep things under control.
Why does the general response to people with ASPD lean towards hatred and the general response for depression lean towards sympathy?
If you want a genuine answer, in very simple terms that might help you understand: more people have lived experiences of being fucked over by people with ASPD. The clue is in the name of the disorder.
Your desire to equate Major Depression and ASPD comes across as very reductive and bizarre. If you can't read the DSM entries for each and parse why people might have negative feelings towards individuals with ASPD, especially those who have dealt with individuals with ASPD, I don't think any more reframing of your 'why aren't they the same?' question is going to help you understand.
Part of it is that the overt acts of people with ASPD tend to be things we generally consider reprehensible.
Living with someone with major depression can cause suffering, much as living with someone succumbing to dementia can cause suffering. The person with major depressive disorder however does not act out in the ways someone with ASPD does. The person with major depressive disorder feels regret, remorse if they recognize that they hurt someone and will express it and try to make amends
I agree, and I see it as it dates back to our instinctual needs for a community that works together for everyone's benefit. If someone accidentally takes the last bread that was saved for the needier, it is imperative they feel bad for that, so it will likely activate guilt/integrity, which will drive them to replace the bread... aka making up for their mistake.
I'm not sure that the same community would trust their neediest's survival to a person with no empathy, if a lack of empathy could mean a lesser chance of guilt/integrity being activated, since instead of it being automatically activated by (natural) empathetic emotion, it's activated by (medically/socially prescribed) disciplinary actions (if you cause x problem to happen, you should do y). Now, the question in my head has boiled down to:
Which is a stronger driving force for achieving social cooperation in this instinctually inspired hypothetical scenario: personally felt emotions or practiced & learned disciplinary actions?
For me, in my experience, emotion is much much stronger. I care more for alleviating my own pain more often than doing something that arguably could be seen the same as doing something charitable just because others expect it of you. Ofc this is me trying to figure out what ASPD people feel in a scenario like this, which I don't have ASPD. So, ironically, I can't empathize. So take my comments with a grain of salt. I could be wildly off.
On a side note, this would be another reason why empathy is so crucial to the human community. We need to be able to figure out proper and reasonable responses to thousands of issues, and most would require this kind of nuanced empathy. I'm afraid therapeutic social lessons and discipline might not help as well as empathy. Anyway...
Charity is seen as something that is of no obligation but would be nice if done. A person might tend to be irate if others expect "charity" from them on a regular basis, and add in the fact that these same people are also saying the person is mentally ill (+ charged sayings like "broken" "evil" etc) for not naturally wanting to donate, since everyone else does when they realize they took the needy's bread.
This "charity," however, can also be seen with severe cases of depression, where the person has to receive disability benefits from the government. Maybe it then comes down to regulating which things and how much the ASPD person might just take (emotionally and materially) vs. in a democracy (aka my POV), people would be able to choose what, if anything, and how much is given to the depressed person.
Idk. It's clear now that judgment should be a case-by-case basis, which makes it difficult (especially as a non-ASPD) to figure out how to instinctively feel about ASPD people, and to decide my moral standing on them. I can, of course, understand the trauma that comes with socializing with an ASPD person (and an MDD person). But the bulk of this whole comment is only really relating to how I understand human instincts to be when living in a community. And some human instincts, as we know, are terrible (i.e., "us vs. them").
Edit: changed "stigmatized" to "charged"
I'm currently reading the Bonobo and the Atheist the Search for Humanism Amongst the Primates by Frans de Waal. He finds the roots of our ethical systems in primate behavior and consistent preferences. I think your comment points to some very significant factors.
I'm going way off topic here I think, but it's a common trope in media to examine how frameworks such as these can go sideways. The most immediate examples for me being the show Dexter, and Ozymandias from The Watchmen. Somehow the values get twisted into still producing a wrong, if even for the right reasons. Obviously this is a dramatic and probably overly pessimistic view. But the thought had occurred to me that a lot of how we see reality is shaped by the media we consume. This thread is giving me a lot to think about.
The answer is complex. Part of this is a virtue-signaling impulse that some people have to "correct" those with non-empathetic behavior toward more normative behavior, which is a good impulse in a direct confrontation scenario where that lack of empathy has a negative impact toward them, but is a bit repulsive as a reaction to "secondhand" sociopathic behavior. Sometimes, especially in situations where a utilitarian approach is advantageous, we need sociopaths, and there will always be sociopaths among us. People trying to "correct" them will not make that go away. That being said, there are situations where we need people with empathy to step in to prevent human harm, so it's important to react situationally to this kind of thinking.
Why do you think we need sociopaths?
Not who you asked, but I don't believe we do. Non-sociopaths are perfectly capable of making tough decisions and calculating the impact of their actions. The things we do need sociopaths for are things of dubious utility that we probably shouldn't be doing, such as torture, execution, war, etc.
A sociopath will default to whatever benefit them to the detriment of the collective.
Maybe 'need' was the wrong word here, but we cannot get rid of them or cast them off into some dark corner of society, so what do we do with them? Might as well use them in situations like zero-sum games and other places where that lack of empathy can help us collectively rather than the mental "block" empathy can create in certain scenarios.
The title may be a bit click baity, but it is what the authors and wsj went with. The piece offered an insightful (if short) look into this woman’s experience with antisocial personality disorder aka “sociopath” which can a loaded or misunderstood term.
Some people lack pain receptors and don't notice when they inevitably hurt themselves. They live with great risk and inevitable injuries and burns.
Someone who lacks capacity for regret or remorse or empathy is as dangerous as any severely venemous creature. It doesn't matter that the condition is not their fault. They are objectively dangerous to deal with.
Edit, if anyone is unhappy about the use of venomous, I can make a similar comparison to short tempered unpredictable creatures like hippo and buffalo, or to predators that don't care like crocodiles
I think your analogy is great. We're not talking about a level playing field here. There are lines we don't cross when we can put ourselves in the shoes of others, and those lines don't exist for people without empathy. Sure some of this can be mitigated by learned behavior changes and routine, but there will always be edge cases. It's important to understand that.
I don't really have any experience with people with an ASPD diagnosis, would you generally say that you'd avoid someone if you knew they were ASPD?
I wouldn't date them or work for them
Hm, given the overwhelmingly negative response it seems unlikely someone would disclose it themselves. Do you think it would be helpful to have a registry or something to identify people with ASPD?
This question took me by surprise. There is a huge difference between proceeding cautiously with relationships regarding potentially toxic people and wanting all toxic people to be identified and tracked.
Regardless of whether it would be helpful, I would fear how it could be abused
Do you know if ASPD is a protected disability in terms of the workplace? Because that could cause... a lot of problems.
Edit: I know you said you wouldn't work for them, it's just that your comment made me wonder the other way around.
To clarify, I wouldn't accept any relationship with them where they had power or influence over me outside of the public view.
Hiring an aspd person might be strategically a good move in certain roles, but the manager caries a lot of responsiblity to prevent and or mitigate harm
There's no list of protected disabilities for the ADA - if your boss thinks (rightly or wrongly) that you have ASPD and discriminates against you or harasses you for it, that'd be illegal (depending on the number of employees). If you, idk, steal from the company and cite your ASPD as why, it's almost certainly not a reasonable accommodation to allow you to keep working there.
But I've never personally heard of a case involving personality disorders and the ADA so I'm not sure it's ever gone to court. I am also not a disability rights lawyer so not an expert.
I think there's a good reason some people with ASPD are public about it. It gives them layers of cover to defend their behavior. "You knew who I was." "It's a condition, it's not my fault." etc. Without it they're just an uncaring asshole. With it, there's a whole medicalized discussion to be had about their behavior that doesn't actually involve them seeing consequences for it.
I'm so sorry you went through that awful situation.
Yep real hard to read lines like these and not be suspicious. Whether she knows it or not, there's a good chance she is lying to herself.
Mirror, for those hit by the paywall:
https://archive.is/6rMGc
This archive seems messed up to me? Like the article ends halfway through.
Looks fine to me. It's a very short article and it does end abruptly. This is the last paragraph:
Weird. I see the article ending right around talking about her baptist church (where the text starts to overlap the WSJ footer)
Shows up weird on both the Three Cheers app and when I open the link in Firefox
I'm also on my phone so I don't know if that's the issue
Huh, yeah that is def not the full thing then. I'm using the latest chrome if that helps.
Looks fine for me on Firefox and Chrome on Desktop (Win10). The only issue I know of with Archive.today (and its mirrors) is Cloudflare DNS messing it up, but that usually results in a CAPTCHA loop and not being able to access the archive at all... not a missing portion of the article.