I find this part interesting. I very much like most of what Reeves has to say, but I can't really identify with this observation. Like, at all. I'm a youngish straight(?) white man in the US and I...
He goes on to say, “I think it's a real mistake on the part of people on the left to see the move of young men towards the right and see that as a turning towards the right when it could just as easily be a turning away from the left, because they don't see themselves in the rhetoric and aesthetic and politics of the left.”
Reeves says that many young men feel “quite homeless politically,” and that sense of not belonging makes them open to the right if they feel that they are being heard.
I find this part interesting. I very much like most of what Reeves has to say, but I can't really identify with this observation. Like, at all. I'm a youngish straight(?) white man in the US and I don't "feel homeless politically". Even if they don't speak directly to me most of the time (probably because I'm in the most privileged demographic in the country), I still see plenty of things to identify with in the left.
Any men in the US having a different experience and want to share?
I don't want to speak for anyone else, so take what I say with a grain of salt. However, I follow the blogs of a lot of trans men and I have definitely picked up on a sense of something you might...
I don't want to speak for anyone else, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
However, I follow the blogs of a lot of trans men and I have definitely picked up on a sense of something you might describe as a kind of political/social homelessness in several of their writings.
A lot of them seem to be saying that they generally feel increasingly unwelcome in their local LGBT/progressive spaces as their HRT treatments take effect. When they looked more female, they were very readily accepted, but as they begin to look more male and adopt more masculine mannerisms, people forget that they are trans and lump them in with cis men — who do not receive nearly as warm a welcome. This seems to be especially the case for heterosexual trans men, from what I have seen.
At the same time that they are pushed to the periphery of their LGBT circles, they start finding it much easier to fit in with more conservative circles — so long as they stay quiet about being trans. Basically, they can't find acceptance as trans men anywhere: their local progressive spaces don't want men, and their local conservative spaces don't want trans people. They can find something that feels akin to acceptance by passing as cis men, but this is of course not the true acceptance they yearn for. This puts a lot of trans men in a very difficult position, socially, and it seems a lot of them kind of just ... drop out of the whole thing and stop trying to find acceptance anywhere. Most of the trans men I follow have described turning inward and become much more insular as their bodies change.
For cis men, though, the situation seems like it must be much more straight forward: In rightwing spaces, they can be honest about what they are and be accepted. They may have to deal with some cognitive dissonance issues at first (namely not agreeing with their social circle's political or religious views), but that is easily solved in due course by listening to their friends long enough that their political and religious views rub off on them. Although I can't stay that I have a lot of respect for cis men who turn rightwing for social acceptance, I do have a great deal of sympathy for them; if everyone who cared about me held political or religious views that I found repulsive, I would probably find some way to stop being repulsed by them, too.
I suspect that men who have non-conservative loved ones are probably pretty well insulated from this effect. I can imagine that having even just one good friendship with a centrist or a progressive can be grounding, so long as they treat you as human being first and don't say discouraging things about men.
Demographic privilege is pretty irrelevant. In my experience, everyone (whether they are man or woman, rich or poor, charming or awkward, etc.) wants to be unconditionally loved and would gladly sacrifice just about any privilege they have for a genuine sense of belonging.
I think you're on to something important. Your final paragraph really hits home. I (white, traditionally-masculine-looking middle-aged male) have never been made to feel unwelcome in conservative...
I think you're on to something important. Your final paragraph really hits home. I (white, traditionally-masculine-looking middle-aged male) have never been made to feel unwelcome in conservative spaces. Importantly, and probably surprisingly to many- even when they know our politics don't align. I'm pretty liberal. They don't care, as long as I'm not a dick. Which I am not, so I actually have a pretty good time at the get together.
The same cannot be said in many (not all. but many.) of the more liberal spaces I visit. The tone policing is miserable. It's very much a flip of what I experienced in the 90's, when it was the right that was stuck in the purity spiral.
And before anyone argues with my perceptions- this is coming from a lifelong liberal. I am not turning conservative. I am, however, experiencing a lot more hostility coming from the modern left, and have been for several years, now. And I am very much not the only one feeling this way.
Yup purity spiral. There's a sense that yes we should tone police and tiptoe and be oh so careful etc around certain groups, but it's okay to openly speak violence and hate towards another. In...
Yup purity spiral.
There's a sense that yes we should tone police and tiptoe and be oh so careful etc around certain groups, but it's okay to openly speak violence and hate towards another. In fact, your membership counts on it. I have traditionally masculine presenting friends who are made to feel extremely uncomfortable for existing in very liberal spaces, as a result.
Example. During the recent Man vs Bear hubbub, the language became very hostile very quickly towards "just men in general". There were a few "I'm not saying all men", but they were in the vast minority.
Nowadays we recognize the bullshit of assuming black people are a violent threat, but we don't give the same grace to "just men". And I hope that as "everybody except cis white men" feel more safe and secure, we can loop back around to making sure young boys grow up not feeling ashamed of their bodies, that people don't hold their keys a certain way when men are around, and that when we talk about bad people we don't use generic terms that cover a lot of good people.
Reading comment chains like this makes me wonder how different the rest of the US is or if I've just managed to insulate myself from intolerable lefties. I feel like a lot of the behavior being...
Reading comment chains like this makes me wonder how different the rest of the US is or if I've just managed to insulate myself from intolerable lefties. I feel like a lot of the behavior being talked about here I've only actually seen online, mainly from tankies or people who are really struggling. In person behavior seems to be much more muted and accepting with no shortage of people at nearly any event who are friendly and inviting.
With all that being said I used to be a lot more fragile than I am today, and would fall prey to assuming generalizations were an attack on me. I tend to be in the vast minority of people who like to point out universalisms when people make broad statements for a number of reasons including to ensure others don't feel alienated, but I do wonder if to some extent I need to pay closer attention as I've lost the sensitivity towards alienating language that I used to once have as a function of my fragility.
In my experience, it's highly fractured. Some social circles are extremely like this and other social circles are nothing at all like it. It's kind of a luck of the draw how much exposure you get....
In my experience, it's highly fractured. Some social circles are extremely like this and other social circles are nothing at all like it. It's kind of a luck of the draw how much exposure you get.
I've generally been pretty lucky in this regard, but a number of my friends have not.
I do think a lot of spaces on the left have been getting more hostile to people they view as outside of their own, and having experienced this myself, I have some thoughts as to why this seems to...
I do think a lot of spaces on the left have been getting more hostile to people they view as outside of their own, and having experienced this myself, I have some thoughts as to why this seems to be happening, from an American pov. I consider myself pretty radically leftwing, and i try to stay informed but idk man im kind of dumb, a lot of this is conjecture and not anything i have hard sources and numbers behind, just life experience as ive lived it. Also long as fuck lol.
I think really this comes from the innate tribalism in humans, and the exacerbated consequences of this in the two party system we exist in. Unfortunately, unlike most other civilized democratic systems, americans have only two political groups to represent all 350+ million of us living here. This means a large majority of those politically conscious people here probably dont even really like their party, but stick with it because its not the guys they like even less. There are no niche parties for people to separate into, leading to these parties essentially becoming "teams" to most people. You're with us or you're against us. Americans are already tribalistic enough with our sports teams, leading to an unhealthy relationship with our political parties as well, with a basis in umempathetic arrogant competition.
Next, you have news media. The last forty years especially, 24 hour media has been thriving on divisive and inciting content, excaberated by the rise of the Internet. Tensions are high already, the country is large and relatively seperated from each other, and people profit off the division, so they gleefully fuel the fire. As time goes on, media gets increasingly unscrupulous in its reporting, leaning less on ethical journalism, and more on reactionary divisive clickbait headline content. And few things get the American people riled up like Sports and Politics.
All that to say, in recent years we as a people have been a powderkeg. With the rise of the internet, we have increasingly lost empathy towards each other, because its a lot easier to not empathize with someone who isnt existing in your space, and whatever previous veneer of polite debate has fallen to slinging insults and going for personal attack at all opportunities. Now throw in the rise of progressive culture globally and the steady march toward authoritarian facism exhibited in the leaders of the American right.
People on the right traditionally arent very progressive people, and they might not be facist, but because of the two party system, they have nowhere to go. They have to choose on compromising personal ideology or their personal ethical standards. Most people compromise on the latter first.
People on the left are generally progressive, and even though our leadership is old and sluggish at best, might hold views i disagree with immensely or support causes i am vehemently against (see funding isreal and their genocide), and might not have much more of a backbone than any other politician, but they also arent openly promoting the fall of american democracy and the slow descent into fascism, and they arent trying to legislate queer communites, containing real people feeling real emotions and living real lives, out of existence. I have to choose between compromising my personal ideologies, or my personal ethical standards. Like most people i chose the latter, chosing to support someone contributing to things i vehemently despise, but at least they arent advocating for facism and pushing to legislate people out of existence.
I have never met an LGBTQ person identifying with the right, and while they do apparently exist, I think its safe to say that the overwhelming majority of queer people fall into the left. And due to the way the right treats and views minorities, i think its fairly safe to say the majority of their base are white males. This association is bound to be made in our brains, because our brains excel at seeing patterns, even if we conjure our own data points from our own biases to see them.
Queer communties are actively staring down the barrel of oppression and violence, and are reactingly strongly, rightfully so. This is now actually life and death for them. The wrong people win the election and its very likely they will be criminalized for existing within the presidential term. This leads to righteous anger and lashing out at the right, and those who even tangentially support it or figures in the party. Because every single person who continues to support that party in anyway are supporting their extinction. And its not just queer people themselves feeling this fear and fury, its also everyone else in their lives who cares for, loves, and accepts them as they are. Afraid of seeing those they love humilitiated, beaten, killed, ostracized, incarcerated. Im a heteroflexible white guy, im really not that scared for being targeted myself, but im horrified for my loved ones who arent so priveledged, and everyone else that would be affected should the right continue gaining momentum and legislative power. And the face of the right are by and large old white men, or young white men with a few women and people of color thrown in, though, in my experience people tend to use them more as a token, and they dont have much substantial presence in the party media. Which is to say, white men are the face of the party trying to bring about facism and eradicate queer communities, as such are treated less favorably from the getgo.
Indifference to these atrocities is still implicit support, so men who dont even ascribe to all the craziness but dont disavow the right are treated just as poorly. These men feel like they have no place on the left, and fall further to the right and extreme ideologies peddled online. Its a self eating snake, ever widening the divide between us because all the people who could work to alleviate these tensions profit off of them, and thus have financial incentive to continue sewing divide.
When I was a teenager i fell into the alt right circles online bc i was a lonely anxious teenage boy, and felt i didnt belong anywhere. It was easy to see others like me and feel accepted as i was. But when i had an empathy breakthrough and was able to see the harm i had supported and the vile words i had stood behind, i wisened up and escaped that sphere of influence and have been trying to make up for it since. Apologizing to those i had wronged or bullied in anyway, and voting to support policies that support helping people, being more active about checking bigot bs. Small game i know, but its a journey. I was lucky enough to have friends on similar journeys, had significant others who were progressive and imparted that on me in ways big and small, live in a progressive area, and find the right messages at the right times to get me where i am, and most guys just arent that lucky. They fall into these circles, and it pushes them away from people who dont share their views, causing them to slip further and further into the craziness. And now i find myself feeling this anger, this hostility, described in your post from time to time. Because "if you're not with us you're against us" is a very easy position to slip into. Its takes effort to meaningfully engage with opposing views and groups, and many dont have that effort to give, leading to even more division. Its a real mess and i fear it will get worse before it gets better. But thats just like, my opinion maaan.
If you read all that, thank you for taking the effort to meaningfully engage with me. I would love to hear thoughts and/or criticisms. Like i said its all off the cuff reactionary brainzaps to the discussion here, so sorry if it made no sense or is full of holes :^]
Thank you for writing all of this out. This is definitely a perspective that I feel I'm lacking. Would you be able to expand a little more on this? Do you have any idea where it comes from? Is it...
Thank you for writing all of this out. This is definitely a perspective that I feel I'm lacking.
These men feel like they have no place on the left,
Would you be able to expand a little more on this? Do you have any idea where it comes from? Is it more of an issue with the democratic establishment, with in-person communities, or with online spaces? I see quite a few men in my in person leftist communities, and there are clearly plenty within the democratic establishment, and they tend to receive praise for bare minimum progressive stances. I recognize that as a woman I'm not seeing what men are seeing, though.
I think the democratic establishment certainly doesnt help things, seeing as most of the old guard are out of touch, ethically questionable, and slippery tongued at best. Additionally in my...
I think the democratic establishment certainly doesnt help things, seeing as most of the old guard are out of touch, ethically questionable, and slippery tongued at best. Additionally in my experience, people often tend to either take their parents politics or the opposite, so i think a lot of men who have grown up causually disinterested in politics, subconsciously take a lot negative associations and biases their parents may have with these democrats. At least this was true for me and a lot of the guys in my area and social sphere. It leads to a base line distrust in these figures and resistance towards their messaging. Conservativism and right wing policy generally focuses on keeping things as they are or going back to how they were. This is much more comfortable for politcally inexperienced men, beacuse the left leans towards change and progress, and change leads to scary unknowns, and changing societal standards that they are still struggling to understand their place in and how to navigate.
I personally feel like in person is actually where they will feel the most grace and leniency towards their presence. This is obviously anecdotal and it seems there is enough people saying otherwise in this thread to disprove this theory, but i will stand by it for my own personal experience. I have found throughout my life, even in high school, when challenging each others ideals in person, people are lot more empathetic as a baseline. I had a lot of grace from from different social circles despite my vile beliefs at the time, because i honestly believe they wanted to engage in honest discussion and promote internal change in people who held these vile people. Its a lot easier to sympathize and empathize when you have an actual person who you can read the facial cues, body language, and tone. And because its a shared physical space, i find the vitriol is toned down because there can be a physical reaction. Granted, you wont often see this because of how terminally online a lot of us are, and how the online is increasing in younger people.
Which leads me to the final space, online, which i truly think is the worst offender here. I could go on all day about how the internet is one of the best and worst things to happen to our species. Instant communication but none of the nuance leads to both greater societal progress and divide. You cant see that person, can't feel the weight of your words on each other, you dont know their life or experience or biases unless they explocitly announce them. And with all i described in the last essay, i think all of this leads to the left being explosively hostile towards anyone they perceive as a threat or other or opposition online.
Meanwhile young men and boys who are chronically online are often targeted by the altright pipeline from a young age, even in subtle ways. Jingoistic video games and films to instill a sence of nationalism. Borderline brainwashing patriotism and nationalism into our children in public education settings. The ever present and peddled fairytale of "The American Dream." All of these build a base level of right wing tendencies in young men, who are then ostracized online for not being on the left, or attacked for simply being a man. Not saying men dont deserve to get called on their shit, but i do think people are often blanket assuming the worst from a lot of men, and young men without the wisdom or life experience to see why people feel this way will view it as an attack on them personally.
Additionally, a lot of left spaces, especially in younger circles, are heavily moderated (for good reason) or private and exclusionary towards people who dont fit criteria. I personally think this can be a good thing, as long you have a public space for people to engage with. If all the dialogue from progressive or left leaning people is tucked away in private discords or in hard to access/discover forums, the only open discussion young men will find to engage with is from grifters and right wingers. Even if the reason they are being denied acess to these spaces isn't necessarily just because they are a man, that is how they will likely percieve it, as it is at least a factor to a lot of the base on the left. I think all of this will lead them to feeling like the only sense of belonging they have is with fellow white men, and cause more and more people to slip into this rabbit hole of extremist and bigoted thinking.
As for possible solutions, i dont think there is gonna be any easy answer to these issues, nor will it be a quick issue to resolve when we do get an answer. I think it would certainly go a long way to make an attempt to meaningfully egage with young men of all spectrums, assuming they can actually bring a good faith debate to the table. It would help to actually teach them as well. A lot of people will respond to genuine questions or concerns of young men with "Its not my responsibility to educate you" which may be true to an extent, sure. No one has to educate men, but i personally feel like we do have a collective responsibility to educate each other as a society. Without it, we would not have any of the societal progress we enjoy and fight for today. But no matter your view on that, I feel its clear that this attitude also contributes to the isolation these men will feel in left leaning circles online.
Another long one lol. I hope that was worthwhile read for you and a satisfying answer to some extent. Again this is a lot of conjecture and personal experience from my own life, others may challenge some or all of this and i welcome any good faith discussion!
I have been really feeling it for the last decade or so, too, even though it is not directed at me personally. I don't have a strong gender identity (I identify more strongly with my hair color...
I am, however, experiencing a lot more hostility coming from the modern left, and have been for several years, now. And I am very much not the only one feeling this way.
I have been really feeling it for the last decade or so, too, even though it is not directed at me personally. I don't have a strong gender identity (I identify more strongly with my hair color than with my gender; if I had been born two decades later, I would probably identify as nonbinary or possibly even as a trans man) and I generally find it pretty easy to relate to men because I have always had very close relationships with men — starting with my dad, who I'm nearly a clone of in terms of personality.
So every time someone says something about men, it feels like they're talking about my dad — and by extension talking about me because I am so like him. It's a really bad feeling, like I am an imposter and in danger.
It might depend on how central your masculinity is to your self identity? How much do you think of yourself as a man first and foremost, with other masculine-coded roles like son, father, or...
It might depend on how central your masculinity is to your self identity? How much do you think of yourself as a man first and foremost, with other masculine-coded roles like son, father, or husband following close behind? Because there's messaging on the left about how to be a good parent, but not necessarily how to be a good father. How to be a good citizen, but not necessarily how to be a good man.
This is fine if you either don't identify strongly with masculinity as a personal trait, or are personally satisfied with your masculinity as you represent it. But if you are looking for someone who's talking about how to be a good man, how to be a good father, how to be a good husband... I feel that in the process of deprioritizing masculinity and the masculine identity as a topic the left has ceded that ground to people who have truly awful ideas.
I'm a man who was raised by two lesbians, and I had no masculine role models as a child, because every single male member of their community was lost to AIDS before I was old enough to want role models. I felt the lack of anyone to teach me how to be manly, and as a teenager went with 90's popular culture's idea of what a man was. It was not good. It's really important to have men show a way of being in community that is masculine without being selfish, and as a society we're still struggling with that decades later.
The message I get from the left is "you're a piece of shit for being born male". Doubly so if you're also white. They actively support hating on people just for being born and play it off as being...
The message I get from the left is "you're a piece of shit for being born male". Doubly so if you're also white. They actively support hating on people just for being born and play it off as being ok since it's against the privileged. It creates tension between groups, resistance to progress and hate on all sides. Being unwilling to apply the same values to men as you want them to apply to women is hypocrisy. Their goal seems to be revenge and polarization, not advancing society.
The message I get from the right is that they're a bunch of insane cultists that hate the poor. They'll say anything to lure people to their side like snake oil salesmen.
The choice is the classist nutjobs or the hypocrites of hate. Seems easy to feel politically homeless to me.
I'm hoping Measure 117 in Oregon passes, it'd be nice if 3rd parties were able to get enough 1st choices to become noticeable and give them some authority, even if they don't win.
If you don't mind me asking, do you feel that this hateful message coming from the left is coming from the democratic party establishment, from individual leftists, or both? Do any examples spring...
If you don't mind me asking, do you feel that this hateful message coming from the left is coming from the democratic party establishment, from individual leftists, or both? Do any examples spring to mind of when you've felt this message? Are you feeling it mostly on-line, in person, or through news that you're consuming?
I ask because I don't see this message at all, but I'm not a man. I don't want to deny your experience. I would like to understand it.
Not the guy you replied to, but have picked on similar vibes before. From individual leftists, especially those more dedicated than establishment Dems Sometimes leaks through into establishment D...
Not the guy you replied to, but have picked on similar vibes before.
From individual leftists, especially those more dedicated than establishment Dems
Sometimes leaks through into establishment D messaging, but it’s trivial to spot as pandering to someone who isn’t you
Decidedly an online only phenomenon (then again, I don’t associate with explicitly leftist groups offline)
Do any examples spring to mind for you, especially of it leaking through to the establishment? I have a hard time holding online interactions in an appropriate perspective. The type of interaction...
Do any examples spring to mind for you, especially of it leaking through to the establishment?
I have a hard time holding online interactions in an appropriate perspective. The type of interaction and context varies so much in terms of how seriously I take it, and I'm sure other people feel the same way, but their criteria is likely different from mine, and their algorithms likely are as well, so we're having both different experiences and we're contextualizing those experiences differently than the other would. If this is a feeling that is mostly coming from online interactions, I wonder how much of it is coming from interactions that I would have written off as some teenager shitposting had they been anti-woman rather than anti-man.
I'm not the poster you replied to, but my take is that both of those messages are somewhat exaggerated, but essentially to the same degree. Those takes are the "extreme" views of each side that...
I'm not the poster you replied to, but my take is that both of those messages are somewhat exaggerated, but essentially to the same degree. Those takes are the "extreme" views of each side that are popularized.
I can see the thru-lines to the extreme message from the right, though. I see the policies that harm the poor. I see the polls showing that something is unpopular among right wing voters, then...
I can see the thru-lines to the extreme message from the right, though. I see the policies that harm the poor. I see the polls showing that something is unpopular among right wing voters, then Trump does it or says he likes it, and it becomes popular. I get how you arrive at insane cultist.
I do not think any portion of the left is perfect by any means, but I don't see the thru-line to "hates men" by any route other than "benefits women". I am assuming that isn't what the commenter I replied to meant because that would say more about him than about the left.
I think it depends on where you grow up and what kind of circles you grow up in. I grew up in conservative (white) evangelical religious circles in the South. My experience is that kind of...
I think it depends on where you grow up and what kind of circles you grow up in. I grew up in conservative (white) evangelical religious circles in the South. My experience is that kind of masculinity really centers in power and privilege. The mode of serving others (mentioned in the article) does show up, but mainly as
the idea of burying your feelings and not emoting (this is seen as not burdening others with your emotions) and
a performative narrative of willingness to sacrifice oneself – I say performative because most of those self-sacrifice scenarios are never going to manifest themselves in modern society, and when they do, that instinct is not always heeded. (Cough...Uvalde...Cough).
Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation is a book written by Kristin Kobes Du Mez that explores some of this. She was also quite active on the Straight White American Jesus podcast when I was listening to it a while back.
All that helped me understand the appeal of someone like Trump to the religious right, even though his behavior is openly and unapologetically repugnant relative to the teachings of Jesus. They see him as a strong man who can deliver the patriarchal society they want to return to.
I would not say that I feel homeless politically, but I would agree with some of his phrasing. The political right wing does use masculine projections of power to advertise themselves, and the...
I would not say that I feel homeless politically, but I would agree with some of his phrasing. The political right wing does use masculine projections of power to advertise themselves, and the left wing does not. I think Derek Guy has come to the internet forefront almost entirely because Republicans misuse fashion symbols. I also agree with Reeves that the right wing has no policy decisions that actually benefit the average American man in any way.
Why I don't feel homeless with the left is that a few of their policies seem universally beneficial. Making receiving healthcare easier and investing in green infrastructure are things that help men, women, and trans people of all ages, ethnicities, orientations and cultural backgrounds. So the advertising from the left never straight up goes, "This is specifically for you, straight white man in the 20-40's age demographic", in a way that the right wing media does, but I've never felt excluded by the way the left advertises themselves.
I would liken it to the shifts in economic opportunity due to globalization. For folks or areas that were net beneficiaries, they adapted and got their stride. Likewise, culture has changed, and...
I would liken it to the shifts in economic opportunity due to globalization. For folks or areas that were net beneficiaries, they adapted and got their stride. Likewise, culture has changed, and messaging has changed. For those doing well, who have economic opportunity, are hitting a stride, or attained a measure of education, they aren't going to be so adrift. For young men who are struggling economically, educationally, socially, and are not hearing anyone talk about their issues or hardships, they will likely feel more adrift.
The right has capitalized on that in a really unhealthy way. I think in general, left and right, the online ecosystem has became a combination of purity spirals and radicalization that sensitizes people to any differing viewpoints. The question is which demographics are roped in by what messaging. And young men are being disproportionally pulled in by the right.
And in Times/Siena polls of six swing states this month — taken after Ms. Harris became the presumptive Democratic nominee — young men favored Mr. Trump by 13 points, while young women favored Ms. Harris by 38 points, a 51-point gap. (Our companion article on the shift among young women is here.)
Of Boys and Men is really good. I recommend it. It's not culture war nonsense; it's not gender-based hot takes. It's a contemplative and empathetic examination of modern masculinity and its...
Of Boys and Men is really good. I recommend it.
It's not culture war nonsense; it's not gender-based hot takes. It's a contemplative and empathetic examination of modern masculinity and its corresponding issues.
Agree. I think his larger body of work (I’ve read that book and he pops up on lots of podcasts I subscribe to) informs this issue better than the article did. There are concrete ways in which...
Agree. I think his larger body of work (I’ve read that book and he pops up on lots of podcasts I subscribe to) informs this issue better than the article did. There are concrete ways in which modern boys are being left behind but very few programs or institutions really address that and young men end up feeling unsupported. I think it’s good he’s out there pushing the issue. The data here seems firm enough that I think we will see changes eventually.
Reeves is a regular on NPR and he has a lot of good takes. One that stick with me is that there isn’t a lot of discussion on what roles men should have in a child’s life. He pointed out that men...
Reeves is a regular on NPR and he has a lot of good takes. One that stick with me is that there isn’t a lot of discussion on what roles men should have in a child’s life. He pointed out that men are more risk takers and that they are the ones that tend to let their children explore and take more calculated risks allowing the child more chances to become comfortable with trying new things, dealing with failure, etc. It was pretty simple stuff but just isn’t a topic of cultural conversation.
I find this part interesting. I very much like most of what Reeves has to say, but I can't really identify with this observation. Like, at all. I'm a youngish straight(?) white man in the US and I don't "feel homeless politically". Even if they don't speak directly to me most of the time (probably because I'm in the most privileged demographic in the country), I still see plenty of things to identify with in the left.
Any men in the US having a different experience and want to share?
I don't want to speak for anyone else, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
However, I follow the blogs of a lot of trans men and I have definitely picked up on a sense of something you might describe as a kind of political/social homelessness in several of their writings.
A lot of them seem to be saying that they generally feel increasingly unwelcome in their local LGBT/progressive spaces as their HRT treatments take effect. When they looked more female, they were very readily accepted, but as they begin to look more male and adopt more masculine mannerisms, people forget that they are trans and lump them in with cis men — who do not receive nearly as warm a welcome. This seems to be especially the case for heterosexual trans men, from what I have seen.
At the same time that they are pushed to the periphery of their LGBT circles, they start finding it much easier to fit in with more conservative circles — so long as they stay quiet about being trans. Basically, they can't find acceptance as trans men anywhere: their local progressive spaces don't want men, and their local conservative spaces don't want trans people. They can find something that feels akin to acceptance by passing as cis men, but this is of course not the true acceptance they yearn for. This puts a lot of trans men in a very difficult position, socially, and it seems a lot of them kind of just ... drop out of the whole thing and stop trying to find acceptance anywhere. Most of the trans men I follow have described turning inward and become much more insular as their bodies change.
For cis men, though, the situation seems like it must be much more straight forward: In rightwing spaces, they can be honest about what they are and be accepted. They may have to deal with some cognitive dissonance issues at first (namely not agreeing with their social circle's political or religious views), but that is easily solved in due course by listening to their friends long enough that their political and religious views rub off on them. Although I can't stay that I have a lot of respect for cis men who turn rightwing for social acceptance, I do have a great deal of sympathy for them; if everyone who cared about me held political or religious views that I found repulsive, I would probably find some way to stop being repulsed by them, too.
I suspect that men who have non-conservative loved ones are probably pretty well insulated from this effect. I can imagine that having even just one good friendship with a centrist or a progressive can be grounding, so long as they treat you as human being first and don't say discouraging things about men.
Demographic privilege is pretty irrelevant. In my experience, everyone (whether they are man or woman, rich or poor, charming or awkward, etc.) wants to be unconditionally loved and would gladly sacrifice just about any privilege they have for a genuine sense of belonging.
I think you're on to something important. Your final paragraph really hits home. I (white, traditionally-masculine-looking middle-aged male) have never been made to feel unwelcome in conservative spaces. Importantly, and probably surprisingly to many- even when they know our politics don't align. I'm pretty liberal. They don't care, as long as I'm not a dick. Which I am not, so I actually have a pretty good time at the get together.
The same cannot be said in many (not all. but many.) of the more liberal spaces I visit. The tone policing is miserable. It's very much a flip of what I experienced in the 90's, when it was the right that was stuck in the purity spiral.
And before anyone argues with my perceptions- this is coming from a lifelong liberal. I am not turning conservative. I am, however, experiencing a lot more hostility coming from the modern left, and have been for several years, now. And I am very much not the only one feeling this way.
Yup purity spiral.
There's a sense that yes we should tone police and tiptoe and be oh so careful etc around certain groups, but it's okay to openly speak violence and hate towards another. In fact, your membership counts on it. I have traditionally masculine presenting friends who are made to feel extremely uncomfortable for existing in very liberal spaces, as a result.
Example. During the recent Man vs Bear hubbub, the language became very hostile very quickly towards "just men in general". There were a few "I'm not saying all men", but they were in the vast minority.
Nowadays we recognize the bullshit of assuming black people are a violent threat, but we don't give the same grace to "just men". And I hope that as "everybody except cis white men" feel more safe and secure, we can loop back around to making sure young boys grow up not feeling ashamed of their bodies, that people don't hold their keys a certain way when men are around, and that when we talk about bad people we don't use generic terms that cover a lot of good people.
Reading comment chains like this makes me wonder how different the rest of the US is or if I've just managed to insulate myself from intolerable lefties. I feel like a lot of the behavior being talked about here I've only actually seen online, mainly from tankies or people who are really struggling. In person behavior seems to be much more muted and accepting with no shortage of people at nearly any event who are friendly and inviting.
With all that being said I used to be a lot more fragile than I am today, and would fall prey to assuming generalizations were an attack on me. I tend to be in the vast minority of people who like to point out universalisms when people make broad statements for a number of reasons including to ensure others don't feel alienated, but I do wonder if to some extent I need to pay closer attention as I've lost the sensitivity towards alienating language that I used to once have as a function of my fragility.
In my experience, it's highly fractured. Some social circles are extremely like this and other social circles are nothing at all like it. It's kind of a luck of the draw how much exposure you get.
I've generally been pretty lucky in this regard, but a number of my friends have not.
I do think a lot of spaces on the left have been getting more hostile to people they view as outside of their own, and having experienced this myself, I have some thoughts as to why this seems to be happening, from an American pov. I consider myself pretty radically leftwing, and i try to stay informed but idk man im kind of dumb, a lot of this is conjecture and not anything i have hard sources and numbers behind, just life experience as ive lived it. Also long as fuck lol.
I think really this comes from the innate tribalism in humans, and the exacerbated consequences of this in the two party system we exist in. Unfortunately, unlike most other civilized democratic systems, americans have only two political groups to represent all 350+ million of us living here. This means a large majority of those politically conscious people here probably dont even really like their party, but stick with it because its not the guys they like even less. There are no niche parties for people to separate into, leading to these parties essentially becoming "teams" to most people. You're with us or you're against us. Americans are already tribalistic enough with our sports teams, leading to an unhealthy relationship with our political parties as well, with a basis in umempathetic arrogant competition.
Next, you have news media. The last forty years especially, 24 hour media has been thriving on divisive and inciting content, excaberated by the rise of the Internet. Tensions are high already, the country is large and relatively seperated from each other, and people profit off the division, so they gleefully fuel the fire. As time goes on, media gets increasingly unscrupulous in its reporting, leaning less on ethical journalism, and more on reactionary divisive clickbait headline content. And few things get the American people riled up like Sports and Politics.
All that to say, in recent years we as a people have been a powderkeg. With the rise of the internet, we have increasingly lost empathy towards each other, because its a lot easier to not empathize with someone who isnt existing in your space, and whatever previous veneer of polite debate has fallen to slinging insults and going for personal attack at all opportunities. Now throw in the rise of progressive culture globally and the steady march toward authoritarian facism exhibited in the leaders of the American right.
People on the right traditionally arent very progressive people, and they might not be facist, but because of the two party system, they have nowhere to go. They have to choose on compromising personal ideology or their personal ethical standards. Most people compromise on the latter first.
People on the left are generally progressive, and even though our leadership is old and sluggish at best, might hold views i disagree with immensely or support causes i am vehemently against (see funding isreal and their genocide), and might not have much more of a backbone than any other politician, but they also arent openly promoting the fall of american democracy and the slow descent into fascism, and they arent trying to legislate queer communites, containing real people feeling real emotions and living real lives, out of existence. I have to choose between compromising my personal ideologies, or my personal ethical standards. Like most people i chose the latter, chosing to support someone contributing to things i vehemently despise, but at least they arent advocating for facism and pushing to legislate people out of existence.
I have never met an LGBTQ person identifying with the right, and while they do apparently exist, I think its safe to say that the overwhelming majority of queer people fall into the left. And due to the way the right treats and views minorities, i think its fairly safe to say the majority of their base are white males. This association is bound to be made in our brains, because our brains excel at seeing patterns, even if we conjure our own data points from our own biases to see them.
Queer communties are actively staring down the barrel of oppression and violence, and are reactingly strongly, rightfully so. This is now actually life and death for them. The wrong people win the election and its very likely they will be criminalized for existing within the presidential term. This leads to righteous anger and lashing out at the right, and those who even tangentially support it or figures in the party. Because every single person who continues to support that party in anyway are supporting their extinction. And its not just queer people themselves feeling this fear and fury, its also everyone else in their lives who cares for, loves, and accepts them as they are. Afraid of seeing those they love humilitiated, beaten, killed, ostracized, incarcerated. Im a heteroflexible white guy, im really not that scared for being targeted myself, but im horrified for my loved ones who arent so priveledged, and everyone else that would be affected should the right continue gaining momentum and legislative power. And the face of the right are by and large old white men, or young white men with a few women and people of color thrown in, though, in my experience people tend to use them more as a token, and they dont have much substantial presence in the party media. Which is to say, white men are the face of the party trying to bring about facism and eradicate queer communities, as such are treated less favorably from the getgo.
Indifference to these atrocities is still implicit support, so men who dont even ascribe to all the craziness but dont disavow the right are treated just as poorly. These men feel like they have no place on the left, and fall further to the right and extreme ideologies peddled online. Its a self eating snake, ever widening the divide between us because all the people who could work to alleviate these tensions profit off of them, and thus have financial incentive to continue sewing divide.
When I was a teenager i fell into the alt right circles online bc i was a lonely anxious teenage boy, and felt i didnt belong anywhere. It was easy to see others like me and feel accepted as i was. But when i had an empathy breakthrough and was able to see the harm i had supported and the vile words i had stood behind, i wisened up and escaped that sphere of influence and have been trying to make up for it since. Apologizing to those i had wronged or bullied in anyway, and voting to support policies that support helping people, being more active about checking bigot bs. Small game i know, but its a journey. I was lucky enough to have friends on similar journeys, had significant others who were progressive and imparted that on me in ways big and small, live in a progressive area, and find the right messages at the right times to get me where i am, and most guys just arent that lucky. They fall into these circles, and it pushes them away from people who dont share their views, causing them to slip further and further into the craziness. And now i find myself feeling this anger, this hostility, described in your post from time to time. Because "if you're not with us you're against us" is a very easy position to slip into. Its takes effort to meaningfully engage with opposing views and groups, and many dont have that effort to give, leading to even more division. Its a real mess and i fear it will get worse before it gets better. But thats just like, my opinion maaan.
If you read all that, thank you for taking the effort to meaningfully engage with me. I would love to hear thoughts and/or criticisms. Like i said its all off the cuff reactionary brainzaps to the discussion here, so sorry if it made no sense or is full of holes :^]
Thank you for writing all of this out. This is definitely a perspective that I feel I'm lacking.
Would you be able to expand a little more on this? Do you have any idea where it comes from? Is it more of an issue with the democratic establishment, with in-person communities, or with online spaces? I see quite a few men in my in person leftist communities, and there are clearly plenty within the democratic establishment, and they tend to receive praise for bare minimum progressive stances. I recognize that as a woman I'm not seeing what men are seeing, though.
I think the democratic establishment certainly doesnt help things, seeing as most of the old guard are out of touch, ethically questionable, and slippery tongued at best. Additionally in my experience, people often tend to either take their parents politics or the opposite, so i think a lot of men who have grown up causually disinterested in politics, subconsciously take a lot negative associations and biases their parents may have with these democrats. At least this was true for me and a lot of the guys in my area and social sphere. It leads to a base line distrust in these figures and resistance towards their messaging. Conservativism and right wing policy generally focuses on keeping things as they are or going back to how they were. This is much more comfortable for politcally inexperienced men, beacuse the left leans towards change and progress, and change leads to scary unknowns, and changing societal standards that they are still struggling to understand their place in and how to navigate.
I personally feel like in person is actually where they will feel the most grace and leniency towards their presence. This is obviously anecdotal and it seems there is enough people saying otherwise in this thread to disprove this theory, but i will stand by it for my own personal experience. I have found throughout my life, even in high school, when challenging each others ideals in person, people are lot more empathetic as a baseline. I had a lot of grace from from different social circles despite my vile beliefs at the time, because i honestly believe they wanted to engage in honest discussion and promote internal change in people who held these vile people. Its a lot easier to sympathize and empathize when you have an actual person who you can read the facial cues, body language, and tone. And because its a shared physical space, i find the vitriol is toned down because there can be a physical reaction. Granted, you wont often see this because of how terminally online a lot of us are, and how the online is increasing in younger people.
Which leads me to the final space, online, which i truly think is the worst offender here. I could go on all day about how the internet is one of the best and worst things to happen to our species. Instant communication but none of the nuance leads to both greater societal progress and divide. You cant see that person, can't feel the weight of your words on each other, you dont know their life or experience or biases unless they explocitly announce them. And with all i described in the last essay, i think all of this leads to the left being explosively hostile towards anyone they perceive as a threat or other or opposition online.
Meanwhile young men and boys who are chronically online are often targeted by the altright pipeline from a young age, even in subtle ways. Jingoistic video games and films to instill a sence of nationalism. Borderline brainwashing patriotism and nationalism into our children in public education settings. The ever present and peddled fairytale of "The American Dream." All of these build a base level of right wing tendencies in young men, who are then ostracized online for not being on the left, or attacked for simply being a man. Not saying men dont deserve to get called on their shit, but i do think people are often blanket assuming the worst from a lot of men, and young men without the wisdom or life experience to see why people feel this way will view it as an attack on them personally.
Additionally, a lot of left spaces, especially in younger circles, are heavily moderated (for good reason) or private and exclusionary towards people who dont fit criteria. I personally think this can be a good thing, as long you have a public space for people to engage with. If all the dialogue from progressive or left leaning people is tucked away in private discords or in hard to access/discover forums, the only open discussion young men will find to engage with is from grifters and right wingers. Even if the reason they are being denied acess to these spaces isn't necessarily just because they are a man, that is how they will likely percieve it, as it is at least a factor to a lot of the base on the left. I think all of this will lead them to feeling like the only sense of belonging they have is with fellow white men, and cause more and more people to slip into this rabbit hole of extremist and bigoted thinking.
As for possible solutions, i dont think there is gonna be any easy answer to these issues, nor will it be a quick issue to resolve when we do get an answer. I think it would certainly go a long way to make an attempt to meaningfully egage with young men of all spectrums, assuming they can actually bring a good faith debate to the table. It would help to actually teach them as well. A lot of people will respond to genuine questions or concerns of young men with "Its not my responsibility to educate you" which may be true to an extent, sure. No one has to educate men, but i personally feel like we do have a collective responsibility to educate each other as a society. Without it, we would not have any of the societal progress we enjoy and fight for today. But no matter your view on that, I feel its clear that this attitude also contributes to the isolation these men will feel in left leaning circles online.
Another long one lol. I hope that was worthwhile read for you and a satisfying answer to some extent. Again this is a lot of conjecture and personal experience from my own life, others may challenge some or all of this and i welcome any good faith discussion!
I have been really feeling it for the last decade or so, too, even though it is not directed at me personally. I don't have a strong gender identity (I identify more strongly with my hair color than with my gender; if I had been born two decades later, I would probably identify as nonbinary or possibly even as a trans man) and I generally find it pretty easy to relate to men because I have always had very close relationships with men — starting with my dad, who I'm nearly a clone of in terms of personality.
So every time someone says something about men, it feels like they're talking about my dad — and by extension talking about me because I am so like him. It's a really bad feeling, like I am an imposter and in danger.
It might depend on how central your masculinity is to your self identity? How much do you think of yourself as a man first and foremost, with other masculine-coded roles like son, father, or husband following close behind? Because there's messaging on the left about how to be a good parent, but not necessarily how to be a good father. How to be a good citizen, but not necessarily how to be a good man.
This is fine if you either don't identify strongly with masculinity as a personal trait, or are personally satisfied with your masculinity as you represent it. But if you are looking for someone who's talking about how to be a good man, how to be a good father, how to be a good husband... I feel that in the process of deprioritizing masculinity and the masculine identity as a topic the left has ceded that ground to people who have truly awful ideas.
I'm a man who was raised by two lesbians, and I had no masculine role models as a child, because every single male member of their community was lost to AIDS before I was old enough to want role models. I felt the lack of anyone to teach me how to be manly, and as a teenager went with 90's popular culture's idea of what a man was. It was not good. It's really important to have men show a way of being in community that is masculine without being selfish, and as a society we're still struggling with that decades later.
The message I get from the left is "you're a piece of shit for being born male". Doubly so if you're also white. They actively support hating on people just for being born and play it off as being ok since it's against the privileged. It creates tension between groups, resistance to progress and hate on all sides. Being unwilling to apply the same values to men as you want them to apply to women is hypocrisy. Their goal seems to be revenge and polarization, not advancing society.
The message I get from the right is that they're a bunch of insane cultists that hate the poor. They'll say anything to lure people to their side like snake oil salesmen.
The choice is the classist nutjobs or the hypocrites of hate. Seems easy to feel politically homeless to me.
I'm hoping Measure 117 in Oregon passes, it'd be nice if 3rd parties were able to get enough 1st choices to become noticeable and give them some authority, even if they don't win.
If you don't mind me asking, do you feel that this hateful message coming from the left is coming from the democratic party establishment, from individual leftists, or both? Do any examples spring to mind of when you've felt this message? Are you feeling it mostly on-line, in person, or through news that you're consuming?
I ask because I don't see this message at all, but I'm not a man. I don't want to deny your experience. I would like to understand it.
Not the guy you replied to, but have picked on similar vibes before.
Do any examples spring to mind for you, especially of it leaking through to the establishment?
I have a hard time holding online interactions in an appropriate perspective. The type of interaction and context varies so much in terms of how seriously I take it, and I'm sure other people feel the same way, but their criteria is likely different from mine, and their algorithms likely are as well, so we're having both different experiences and we're contextualizing those experiences differently than the other would. If this is a feeling that is mostly coming from online interactions, I wonder how much of it is coming from interactions that I would have written off as some teenager shitposting had they been anti-woman rather than anti-man.
I'm not the poster you replied to, but my take is that both of those messages are somewhat exaggerated, but essentially to the same degree. Those takes are the "extreme" views of each side that are popularized.
I can see the thru-lines to the extreme message from the right, though. I see the policies that harm the poor. I see the polls showing that something is unpopular among right wing voters, then Trump does it or says he likes it, and it becomes popular. I get how you arrive at insane cultist.
I do not think any portion of the left is perfect by any means, but I don't see the thru-line to "hates men" by any route other than "benefits women". I am assuming that isn't what the commenter I replied to meant because that would say more about him than about the left.
I think you're right. I don't see it either, aside from social media buzz.
I think it depends on where you grow up and what kind of circles you grow up in. I grew up in conservative (white) evangelical religious circles in the South. My experience is that kind of masculinity really centers in power and privilege. The mode of serving others (mentioned in the article) does show up, but mainly as
the idea of burying your feelings and not emoting (this is seen as not burdening others with your emotions) and
a performative narrative of willingness to sacrifice oneself – I say performative because most of those self-sacrifice scenarios are never going to manifest themselves in modern society, and when they do, that instinct is not always heeded. (Cough...Uvalde...Cough).
Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation is a book written by Kristin Kobes Du Mez that explores some of this. She was also quite active on the Straight White American Jesus podcast when I was listening to it a while back.
All that helped me understand the appeal of someone like Trump to the religious right, even though his behavior is openly and unapologetically repugnant relative to the teachings of Jesus. They see him as a strong man who can deliver the patriarchal society they want to return to.
I would not say that I feel homeless politically, but I would agree with some of his phrasing. The political right wing does use masculine projections of power to advertise themselves, and the left wing does not. I think Derek Guy has come to the internet forefront almost entirely because Republicans misuse fashion symbols. I also agree with Reeves that the right wing has no policy decisions that actually benefit the average American man in any way.
Why I don't feel homeless with the left is that a few of their policies seem universally beneficial. Making receiving healthcare easier and investing in green infrastructure are things that help men, women, and trans people of all ages, ethnicities, orientations and cultural backgrounds. So the advertising from the left never straight up goes, "This is specifically for you, straight white man in the 20-40's age demographic", in a way that the right wing media does, but I've never felt excluded by the way the left advertises themselves.
I would liken it to the shifts in economic opportunity due to globalization. For folks or areas that were net beneficiaries, they adapted and got their stride. Likewise, culture has changed, and messaging has changed. For those doing well, who have economic opportunity, are hitting a stride, or attained a measure of education, they aren't going to be so adrift. For young men who are struggling economically, educationally, socially, and are not hearing anyone talk about their issues or hardships, they will likely feel more adrift.
The right has capitalized on that in a really unhealthy way. I think in general, left and right, the online ecosystem has became a combination of purity spirals and radicalization that sensitizes people to any differing viewpoints. The question is which demographics are roped in by what messaging. And young men are being disproportionally pulled in by the right.
As of a week ago there was a 51 point gap between Gen z men and women on who who support Harris vs Trump. (NYT gift link titled: Many Gen Z Men Feel Left Behind. Some See Trump as an Answer. ).
Of Boys and Men is really good. I recommend it.
It's not culture war nonsense; it's not gender-based hot takes. It's a contemplative and empathetic examination of modern masculinity and its corresponding issues.
Agree. I think his larger body of work (I’ve read that book and he pops up on lots of podcasts I subscribe to) informs this issue better than the article did. There are concrete ways in which modern boys are being left behind but very few programs or institutions really address that and young men end up feeling unsupported. I think it’s good he’s out there pushing the issue. The data here seems firm enough that I think we will see changes eventually.
Reeves is a regular on NPR and he has a lot of good takes. One that stick with me is that there isn’t a lot of discussion on what roles men should have in a child’s life. He pointed out that men are more risk takers and that they are the ones that tend to let their children explore and take more calculated risks allowing the child more chances to become comfortable with trying new things, dealing with failure, etc. It was pretty simple stuff but just isn’t a topic of cultural conversation.
That's quite a thoughtful take. I like this guy.