One thing I hate about modern internet culture is that underneath this garbage article, there are some legitimate problems that are important to address and this idea could be taken seriously but...
One thing I hate about modern internet culture is that underneath this garbage article, there are some legitimate problems that are important to address and this idea could be taken seriously but instead we call them "incels" and they have theories that "Chads" are having sex so much that they can't get any... It turns into a joke (meme, to be accurate).
As somebody going through the classic living at home failed in college struggling socially etc. I don't want this article to be taken very seriously. I understand they're probably going to investigate a more extreme case but a person with multiple personality disorders and addiction to cigarettes just makes him out to be a caricature. Not even a stereotype, but an exaggeration.
The fact is there are also people without substance addictions and without personality disorders who are going through the same exact scenario because of the growing economic/social inequality. The other commenter specifically said this makes UBI seem less sustainable and that's precisely what pisses me off. Me and my friend in a similar situation (again, no substance abuse or personality disorder) were just talking about how UBI would be such a boost. Such a useful concept for the LARGE majority of Americans and we know politicians are going to focus on less common cases like this to argue against it. It's sad
The life of an incel is bad for sure. But what's worse is the fact that a larger portion of Americans who aren't incels are getting pressed down into the dirt by economic adversity and even if you start to make way in this world you better hope to hell you don't have a medical emergency or anything like that. All your plans of saving or retirement get destroyed. Not to mention the bank bailout and how much that fucked over the middle class (and lower) and how the already wealthy walked away without a limp. What a joke
edit: this post kinda blew up. it's my bad for making a singular post instead of a reply, I was kinda replying to Diode's post because he mentioned that the idea of incels making UBI seem like a not sustainable system long term, and that just made me incensed on a personal level because my friend and I who are in our 20s living at home struggling in education/work and all that kinda shit were just tlaking about how UBI would change our lives for the better. I wasn't trying to make an insular post ignoring the article. I was just relating the article to my own life plus Diode's comment on how these people's image could affect UBI especially when I can potentially be lumped in with them because I'm a white male in my 20s with no degree, unemployed, living at home, etc.
Incel? Are you sure you're not thinking of "neckbeard" or "basement-dweller"? Because everything you're describing here applies to the neckbeard meme, not the incel one: someone who lives in their...
Exemplary
Incel? Are you sure you're not thinking of "neckbeard" or "basement-dweller"?
Because everything you're describing here applies to the neckbeard meme, not the incel one: someone who lives in their parents basements, thinks they're the smartest person in every room, always blames others for their circumstances, doesn't hold or maintain employment, has poor social skills and hygiene...
Incels are way more specific because they have a very real, and very unfunny, hatred of women. It is misogyny taken to extremes—mass murder extremes. They're not just some group to be laughed at, and articles like this are taking a deep dive into the world of one. The memes about incels aren't that they're something to be laughed at or pitied. In fact, I don't know of any memes revolving around them.
The biggest subreddit about incels is r/inceltears, which is a place that chronicles some baffling and concerning shit that incels say elsewhere on reddit. Contrast this to r/justneckbeardthings which is a lot lighter-hearted and full of joke posts and memes about the people you seem to be referencing. (Note: not condoning these subs, just bringing them up for the sake of comparison.) Sure, there's an element of Nice Guys with the neckbeards but it's not misogyny in anywhere near the same dimensions or intensity as incels.
There's likely an overlap between the communities, that's not hard to believe, but when it comes to being mistaken as one... I can't imagine anyone could seriously conflate someone stuck in their parents' basement due to economic factors with someone who wants to kill/rape women because they feel entitled to it. Not without that conflater themselves either being seriously misinformed or possessing some other issues themselves.
In this comment, and your other response, I see you glossing over this very dark detail of what constitutes an incel versus the standard basement-dweller or neckbeard stereotypes and memes. That seems like an extremely important detail to gloss over.
Incels are a huge step beyond the people you're describing, and I'm not sure that instantly dismissing any article that seeks to understand and speak to this very specific and extreme group as "garbage" that is missing the bigger picture is an honest assessment. Indeed, it's not clear what it is about this article that you're taking umbrage with, you don't really address anything about it. You just say it's garbage because it says it's about incels right from the start, and you seem to feel personally attacked. That's a bit odd, no?
When people refer to incels, it should be taken for granted that they're talking about people who refuse to consider the female sex as people, not simply people who have been left behind by the economy.
For what it's worth, there are plenty of incel memes that are more than just compiling awful shit they do, it's often used in alternate forms of virgin/chad memes and in a lot of circles is used...
For what it's worth, there are plenty of incel memes that are more than just compiling awful shit they do, it's often used in alternate forms of virgin/chad memes and in a lot of circles is used as a casual way to refer to what you put under "neckbeard".
Still, you're right about it being a real, distinct, and dangerous thing that needs to be recognized and understood in a serious manner. Just clarifying.
Fair enough, admittedly I try to avoid memes where ever I can (just not into the idea of lo-fi humour, I suppose), so whatever memes I do see are ones that get through to more mainstream channels...
Fair enough, admittedly I try to avoid memes where ever I can (just not into the idea of lo-fi humour, I suppose), so whatever memes I do see are ones that get through to more mainstream channels (e.g. Google News, reddit frontpage or popular lists, other social media feeds).
The exact same scenario of becoming sex-obsessed recluses who revere murderers and believe they can't get laid because of societal degeneracy? Are you complaining that the article isn't...
The fact is there are also people without substance addictions and without personality disorders who are going through the same exact scenario because of the growing economic/social inequality.
The exact same scenario of becoming sex-obsessed recluses who revere murderers and believe they can't get laid because of societal degeneracy?
The life of an incel is bad for sure. But what's worse is the fact that a larger portion of Americans who aren't incels are getting pressed down into the dirt by economic adversity...
Are you complaining that the article isn't specifically about a different, but related, problem? There's not exactly a shortage of articles describing these issues.
IMO your comment is a rather unfair interpretation of OPs and you come across as attacking a straw man. It seems pretty clear to me that OP was referring to the circumstances they believe can...
IMO your comment is a rather unfair interpretation of OPs and you come across as attacking a straw man.
It seems pretty clear to me that OP was referring to the circumstances they believe can potentially lead to people becoming an incel (i.e. social isolation, lack of prospects, internet reclusive, etc), and because of articles like this, that label being applied to others who are in a similar situation but haven't turned into "sex-obsessed recluses who revere murderers and believe they can't get laid because of societal degeneracy", and that undermining efforts (e.g. UBI) which may help those people.
p.s. And to be clear, I don't entirely agree with OP. IMO articles like this highlighting even the extreme cases are helpful for determining the causes behind those outcomes, so then ways to address them can be found... but I also suspect OPs fear isn't entirely unfounded either, since another user in this very comment section questioned the sustainability of UBI based on this rather extreme case.
That's basically my issue, even if the core idea of the comment has merit, it completely misses the point of the article and it seems strange to me that it'd be applauded for this.
That's basically my issue, even if the core idea of the comment has merit, it completely misses the point of the article and it seems strange to me that it'd be applauded for this.
My bad. I edited my comment. I should have just made a reply as I referenced Diode's comment. My comment was mostly about UBI and how mainstream media buying into these articles about incels can...
My bad. I edited my comment. I should have just made a reply as I referenced Diode's comment. My comment was mostly about UBI and how mainstream media buying into these articles about incels can damage the reputation of the larger majority that can benefit from UBI, such as myself.
I still hate the idea of incels and anybody who would report on them because they're a joke. But what makes me more concerned is how it could be used politically to push back against various kinds of social welfare such as UBI for moderate citizens. But... Ya know... Journalism being exaggeration and cutting edge whoda thunk
I'm not sure why you hate incel reporting, considering they are a very real and very dangerous community of individuals that lash out at people and can cause serious real-world harm. I don't see...
I'm not sure why you hate incel reporting, considering they are a very real and very dangerous community of individuals that lash out at people and can cause serious real-world harm. I don't see the correlation between people who report on incels and people pushing back on social welfare.
We absolutely should take them very seriously, lest they fester and cause even more harm.
and to be clear, it's not just that they can, it's that they do. aside from the obvious ones like elliot rodgers, we're still not even a year removed from the toronto van attack that killed ten,...
considering they are a very real and very dangerous community of individuals that lash out at people and can cause serious real-world harm
and to be clear, it's not just that they can, it's that they do. aside from the obvious ones like elliot rodgers, we're still not even a year removed from the toronto van attack that killed ten, and we're not six from the tallahassee yoga shooting
Can you elaborate on this? They absolutely exist, and understanding fringe groups that exist, regardless of how crazy they are, is important if our goal is to stop them from recruiting and...
I still hate the idea of incels and anybody who would report on them because they're a joke.
Can you elaborate on this? They absolutely exist, and understanding fringe groups that exist, regardless of how crazy they are, is important if our goal is to stop them from recruiting and brainwashing people. We need to understand the problems that they share, to understand how to work towards a solution.
But what makes me more concerned is how it could be used politically to push back against various kinds of social welfare such as UBI
The same can be said of "welfare queens" or the alt right or neonazis or any other fringe group imaginary or not that exists among the lower rungs of income.
I would say even though incels are a national/global concept, I don't see any kind of national/global action that can be taken to alleviate their suffering and potential violent reactions. Incels...
I would say even though incels are a national/global concept, I don't see any kind of national/global action that can be taken to alleviate their suffering and potential violent reactions. Incels can only be handled locally, by the local police and local government.
However, Vice and any other large publisher like NYtimes or WaPo or Huff or reporting on a national or arguably global level so we're giving a fringe group that can't be handled on that level a large audience and my opinion is that it a) does nothing or b) hurts the perception of the larger group of people who are simply young people struggling a broken economy because of sensationalism. On one hand it's not Vice's fault but on the other hand every journalist knows reporting on the majority of Americans experiencing economic adversity is boring and instead reporting on a fringe group who is potentially violent and very polarizing is great for "entertainment" to be honest. And we can also kind of mention the Streisand effect where if you give these people credit it makes them larger. What was a fringe group can become a large group with a lot of steam in the engine I mean look at Trump's supporters. We ALL thought his supporters were a joke and his campaign would be a hilarious flop basically comedy gold and then out of nowhere he's the president of the United States. We live in a time where we can really truly saying anything can happen lol. The internet puts everything on the table
So, ultimately this is just my opinion in relation to Diode's comment about UBI being unsustainable long term because of people like that who are actively choosing to not participate etc. And that just flipped a switch for me because I know for a fact there is a larger group of people who are willing to work and achieve things and could benefit from UBI. So yes, fringe groups exist and can be dangerous. But I'm still more concerned about national policies that can help an entire country over how dangerous some fringe group that will probably fade in and out of relevance.
Well that's Vice for you. I don't think anybody is buying into the narrative hard except for people who are far left or far right (aka people who are pure cancer lol). But yeah the irony is that...
Well that's Vice for you. I don't think anybody is buying into the narrative hard except for people who are far left or far right (aka people who are pure cancer lol).
But yeah the irony is that people who are doing okay in life will say have you tried this, have you tried that. And they are baffled that I am doing nothing wrong and still getting screwed over by the system. Being a young white male who doesn't have an emotionally/financially supportive family right now is a disaster. At least where I am in Los Angeles, I apply all day and have done several interviews and just haven't gotten a job. I mean these are jobs that anyone can do. So it's either luck of the draw or somebody who has certain niches that HR fills have a benefit of the doubt. I fill NONE of the niches. I don't tick a single box lol
And yeah I'm just sitting at my parents, a physically and mentally healthy 28 year old man with previous work experience in design and marketing (but no college degree). And even though I'm looking for work this is still "all my fault" in the eyes of anybody above me. And it's socially unacceptable to complain about parents not being parents, it's seen as scapegoating. Because I'm older so I have to accept responsibility now... But believe me getting screwed over in your teens puts you back in a big way.
I watched my best friend, only child with two supportive and intelligent parents, just casually walk through high school and 4 year college and move back home for a year, then got a job and moved in with his GF and now they're married and own a home at age 30. I spent most of my childhood with him doing the same things he did. We surfed and skateboarded and played video games. We didn't party. We didn't get in trouble. I thought we were equals as a teenager. When I graduated high school realizing I wasn't going to live the life he's about to go off to... I felt sick to my stomach. Like I was lied to. I did music my entire education and wanted to apply to a 4 year and try to get a music scholarship. It was a long shot but I wanted to try one. The app fee was $100. My father wouldn't pay it. From that day on I valued myself at $0 in the eyes of most people, my parents most importantly.
I am walking, breathing, living wasted potential. And this story isn't even uncommon. It's actually more likely you will have stupid parents who don't know how to raise their children in changing times than to have a personality disorder. There should be a movement about what to do with all the wasted potential from stupid ass parents having kids when their teenagers and shit lol. Disorders are important but they're probably less common. And yes, UBI is definitely one of those solutions to the problem
You're talking about an entirely different problem though. The article is about incels, a very specific culture of people that identify with the label. Most of them are not where they are because...
You're talking about an entirely different problem though. The article is about incels, a very specific culture of people that identify with the label. Most of them are not where they are because of a lack of support. In fact, the opposite is true in most cases. Many of them are supported exclusively by their parents, and are unable to attract women primarily due to their toxic mindset and self re-enforcing world view.
What you're talking about is are larger more widespread economic issues, which are important, and probably more important than incels, but it's not at all what the article is about. "Inceldom" isn't a problem that UBI or any other economic policy can fix.
this article is from last year and the dude at the center of this piece is definitely on the better, less misogynistic/assholish/just generally fucked up scale of incels (which says a lot!), so...
this article is from last year and the dude at the center of this piece is definitely on the better, less misogynistic/assholish/just generally fucked up scale of incels (which says a lot!), so there is that caveat although the dude is friends with people who are much more like your stereotypical incel. interesting little piece nonetheless.
(oh and as an aside, i haven't tagged this as NSFW since the overwhelming majority of the piece is mundane, but there's a fairly NSFW vignette in this involving someone shitting themselves, so some of you may wish to be mindful of that.)
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but while I was reading this I thought about furries. Furries tend to fit a similar background; young, low self-confidence, issues fitting in with society, etc. I...
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but while I was reading this I thought about furries. Furries tend to fit a similar background; young, low self-confidence, issues fitting in with society, etc. I see this and I wonder why the balance has shifted from a largely supportive group to a group centered entirely around self-destruction.
I left the furry fandom years ago after making some drastic changes in my life. My life was going places and I didn't need that kind of support anymore. But every time I looked back, I could see my community shrinking. There are so few people on the MUCKs anymore. I now hear about Nazi furries and others on the alt-right. I just can't understand what happened.
aside from the fact that this can mostly be attributed to furry fandom being relatively open to people that are generally outcasts from mainstream society, most furries are only self-destructive...
Exemplary
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but while I was reading this I thought about furries. Furries tend to fit a similar background; young, low self-confidence, issues fitting in with society, etc. I see this and I wonder why the balance has shifted from a largely supportive group to a group centered entirely around self-destruction.
aside from the fact that this can mostly be attributed to furry fandom being relatively open to people that are generally outcasts from mainstream society, most furries are only self-destructive insofar as they predominantly represent classes of people that are more likely to be unstable and mentally ill. it shouldn't really come as a surprise to people that a community predominantly made up of non-straight, non-cis, neurodivergent people also tends to be considerably more unstable than other communities. you're jamming together a bunch of demographics that disproportionately suffer from mental illness and suicidality, predominantly for reasons out of their control; that's just not conducive to community stability, generally speaking.
there's not really a basis to the idea that this is a sudden shift or that furries aren't still generally a supportive group of people, either. furries have always had an undercurrent of self-destruction--self-destruction is part of why things like the burned furs in the early days of the internet proliferation of furry fandom were things that happened and altered the course of the community. equally true though is the fact that the support within the community has not gone away. if anything, there's a case to be made that the community is more supportive than ever specifically because of things like twitter and reddit and discord, which have carved out communities within the broader community, and the rise of 'mainstream' furry figures like sonicfox who actually embrace what the community is instead of trying to sanitize it.
But every time I looked back, I could see my community shrinking. There are so few people on the MUCKs anymore. I now hear about Nazi furries and others on the alt-right. I just can't understand what happened.
nothing happened, really.
if anything, furries that make a point of stating their ideological beliefs are increasingly radical to the left, not the right--it's just that alt-furries happen to be a particularly small and yet vocal minority since there are a bunch of shitheel popufurs that buy into it. most of the twitter furries i know period for example (even the ones that are ostensibly apolitical on twitter) are either some flavor of leftist or anarchists, and alt-furs are so marginalized within the broader community at this point they've essentially had to form their own little communities independent of it on places like telegram. also, furries are increasingly consolidated on places like reddit, discord, and twitter, so there's that.
Thank you very much for your insight. I guess it should have been more obvious that it's hard to keep track of a group when you're not invested anymore. I'm very happy to see that it hasn't gone...
Thank you very much for your insight. I guess it should have been more obvious that it's hard to keep track of a group when you're not invested anymore. I'm very happy to see that it hasn't gone for the worst like I had feared.
It's kind of funny. At that point in my life my depression was really bad and I was suicidal. Yet now I don't really understand l'appel du vide and people's tendency to choose destruction over salvation. I suppose that's why we call that part of ourselves "the darkness"; it is formless, nebulous, and unknowable.
There was an interesting episode of the Reply-All podcast that looked at how the incel community started and how it was, at first, a supportive environment. A short excerpt:
I wonder why the balance has shifted from a largely supportive group to a group centered entirely around self-destruction.
There was an interesting episode of the Reply-All podcast that looked at how the incel community started and how it was, at first, a supportive environment. A short excerpt:
ALANA: I came up with the idea to create the the support group online because I recognized that um, you know, there are other people who have this kind of situation and if if I can get out of it, if I can start dating after a long period of being single, then maybe other people can too.
PJ: Hm.
ALANA: And the reason I knew about going through that process of reducing shame was that I'd come out of the closet and that's the exact process you go through. Uh, when you um discover that there are other queer people in the world, and maybe you're queer too, and then you talk to the other queer people and you get used to the idea that you have that identity, and then you are more able to tell other straight people about it. So that was a, you know, a really wonderful and empowering process for me in my early-20s.
So I think the group was the same idea. That meeting real people, even just on the internet, helps you understand, Hey, this is a thing that's happening to me and maybe there's some hope, maybe I can get some support.
PJ: She had a vision for the website. It going to be simple. Just a place with a bunch of resources where people could talk., Black text on a white background. But the first thing she needed, she realized, was to give all these people a name, because the names for people like her, they were awful.
ALANA: You know phrases like the lonely virgin in his mother's basement was kind of dominant in the culture and and was worthy of attack as well. So I wanted something neutral and kind of precise. I didn't want to use virginity in the name because it's quite possible for someone to have sex and then stop having sex again for a long time.
PJ: Hm.
ALANA: Uh, so I I don't remember exactly- like coming up with names is a mysterious, creative process, but I do remember noticing that celibacy was a useful, you know accurate descriptor, but it was mostly a religious term that priests or nuns- priests and nuns are celibate. And in fact if I researched, you know, for books and articles on celibacy, they would all be about religious voluntary vows of celibacy. So putting “involuntary” in front of it solved that problem and then we were off to the races.
The culture of incels is interesting to me because it means one of two things, either: These people have been taught to value sex so highly that not having sex means you are worthless. There's...
The culture of incels is interesting to me because it means one of two things, either:
These people have been taught to value sex so highly that not having sex means you are worthless.
There's something about self-loathing that causes people to confuse self-worth with sex appeal.
I actually don't think it's either. I originally thought it had something to do with placing an extreme amount of value on sex, but now I think it's something a lot bleaker/darker. These are...
I actually don't think it's either. I originally thought it had something to do with placing an extreme amount of value on sex, but now I think it's something a lot bleaker/darker. These are people that have gone beyond self-loathing and into violent misanthropy. A lot of what they do is fueled completely by hatred of others because they've externalized all of their issues and problems into the world. Their definition of love and what it means to be in a relationship is also completely and utterly twisted because to them, the woman must be completely subservient.
It may have started as overemphasizing sexual desire, but they end up being radicalized into a movement willing to commit murder because of how much they hate the other. If you've ever had a cursory glance at some of their forums, boards, discussions etc it is frankly terrifying.
I think something of what @teaearlgraycold was saying holds merit in that regard though, as one user on twitter put it very well: A common thread among incel is that they seem to have fully bought...
Exemplary
Their definition of love and what it means to be in a relationship is also completely and utterly twisted because to them, the woman must be completely subservient.
Having sex with a woman is a rite of passage to becoming a "real man". Without having sex, one is denied his birthright--his manhood. Sexual rejection is existential rejection. Women hold the keys to our masculinity. [...] So our relationship with women is set, from the start, as a paradoxical tug of war. We need them to be ourselves. This is why such a fear of female autonomy and self-esteem. Female autonomy frustrates our attempts to define ourselves by our ownership.
A common thread among incel is that they seem to have fully bought in to the notion that their worth as men is defined by having had sex, and by extension by being sexually attractive. And because they view this as a necessary rite of passage rather than a normal part of human relationships they only court women with trite, surface-level achievements they think must necessary result in sex. One well-known video in which (I believe) Elliot Rodger explains to the camera about what he considers ought to be the reasons girls should be attracted to him: politeness, self-care, his above-average car, really shows how deeply engrained this belief can be that sex should happen provided one corresponds to their idea what a "man" should be. Something we might recognize as the prototypical "Nice Guy" behaviour.
Aside from this, it's really not hard to find confirmation of the belief that a man's worth rests in his ability to sleep with women, because we're all very ready to make fun of men unable (or unwilling) to do so. Incels usually spend a lot of time on the internet and I imagine they're frequently exposed to jokes about "virgin losers" or other memes suggesting that not having sex equates to being worthless as a person.
All of this together with an inability to consider that their foundational beliefs about masculinity might be wrong or toxic most likely means they have no other way to make sense of the world but by believing they've been "cheated" in some way, and that it is the fault of women/feminism/society at large for not playing by the rules they think to have understood. And that's where it turns to misanthropy: when they feel that integration into society is fundamentally out of reach, because of actions by other people outside of their control, the anger and hatred starts, and ultimately the revenge fantasies. Because revenge in their eyes is maybe the only way they have left of reasserting control.
This article reminds me of welcome to the NHK. Its an anime about a person that doesnt leave there house (hikikomori) and it deals with a lot of similar themes (depression, suicide, isolation,...
This article reminds me of welcome to the NHK. Its an anime about a person that doesnt leave there house (hikikomori) and it deals with a lot of similar themes (depression, suicide, isolation, mental health). I would recommend it to anyone. It's one of my favorite.
One thing I hate about modern internet culture is that underneath this garbage article, there are some legitimate problems that are important to address and this idea could be taken seriously but instead we call them "incels" and they have theories that "Chads" are having sex so much that they can't get any... It turns into a joke (meme, to be accurate).
As somebody going through the classic living at home failed in college struggling socially etc. I don't want this article to be taken very seriously. I understand they're probably going to investigate a more extreme case but a person with multiple personality disorders and addiction to cigarettes just makes him out to be a caricature. Not even a stereotype, but an exaggeration.
The fact is there are also people without substance addictions and without personality disorders who are going through the same exact scenario because of the growing economic/social inequality. The other commenter specifically said this makes UBI seem less sustainable and that's precisely what pisses me off. Me and my friend in a similar situation (again, no substance abuse or personality disorder) were just talking about how UBI would be such a boost. Such a useful concept for the LARGE majority of Americans and we know politicians are going to focus on less common cases like this to argue against it. It's sad
The life of an incel is bad for sure. But what's worse is the fact that a larger portion of Americans who aren't incels are getting pressed down into the dirt by economic adversity and even if you start to make way in this world you better hope to hell you don't have a medical emergency or anything like that. All your plans of saving or retirement get destroyed. Not to mention the bank bailout and how much that fucked over the middle class (and lower) and how the already wealthy walked away without a limp. What a joke
edit: this post kinda blew up. it's my bad for making a singular post instead of a reply, I was kinda replying to Diode's post because he mentioned that the idea of incels making UBI seem like a not sustainable system long term, and that just made me incensed on a personal level because my friend and I who are in our 20s living at home struggling in education/work and all that kinda shit were just tlaking about how UBI would change our lives for the better. I wasn't trying to make an insular post ignoring the article. I was just relating the article to my own life plus Diode's comment on how these people's image could affect UBI especially when I can potentially be lumped in with them because I'm a white male in my 20s with no degree, unemployed, living at home, etc.
Incel? Are you sure you're not thinking of "neckbeard" or "basement-dweller"?
Because everything you're describing here applies to the neckbeard meme, not the incel one: someone who lives in their parents basements, thinks they're the smartest person in every room, always blames others for their circumstances, doesn't hold or maintain employment, has poor social skills and hygiene...
Incels are way more specific because they have a very real, and very unfunny, hatred of women. It is misogyny taken to extremes—mass murder extremes. They're not just some group to be laughed at, and articles like this are taking a deep dive into the world of one. The memes about incels aren't that they're something to be laughed at or pitied. In fact, I don't know of any memes revolving around them.
The biggest subreddit about incels is r/inceltears, which is a place that chronicles some baffling and concerning shit that incels say elsewhere on reddit. Contrast this to r/justneckbeardthings which is a lot lighter-hearted and full of joke posts and memes about the people you seem to be referencing. (Note: not condoning these subs, just bringing them up for the sake of comparison.) Sure, there's an element of Nice Guys with the neckbeards but it's not misogyny in anywhere near the same dimensions or intensity as incels.
There's likely an overlap between the communities, that's not hard to believe, but when it comes to being mistaken as one... I can't imagine anyone could seriously conflate someone stuck in their parents' basement due to economic factors with someone who wants to kill/rape women because they feel entitled to it. Not without that conflater themselves either being seriously misinformed or possessing some other issues themselves.
In this comment, and your other response, I see you glossing over this very dark detail of what constitutes an incel versus the standard basement-dweller or neckbeard stereotypes and memes. That seems like an extremely important detail to gloss over.
Incels are a huge step beyond the people you're describing, and I'm not sure that instantly dismissing any article that seeks to understand and speak to this very specific and extreme group as "garbage" that is missing the bigger picture is an honest assessment. Indeed, it's not clear what it is about this article that you're taking umbrage with, you don't really address anything about it. You just say it's garbage because it says it's about incels right from the start, and you seem to feel personally attacked. That's a bit odd, no?
When people refer to incels, it should be taken for granted that they're talking about people who refuse to consider the female sex as people, not simply people who have been left behind by the economy.
For what it's worth, there are plenty of incel memes that are more than just compiling awful shit they do, it's often used in alternate forms of virgin/chad memes and in a lot of circles is used as a casual way to refer to what you put under "neckbeard".
Still, you're right about it being a real, distinct, and dangerous thing that needs to be recognized and understood in a serious manner. Just clarifying.
Fair enough, admittedly I try to avoid memes where ever I can (just not into the idea of lo-fi humour, I suppose), so whatever memes I do see are ones that get through to more mainstream channels (e.g. Google News, reddit frontpage or popular lists, other social media feeds).
The exact same scenario of becoming sex-obsessed recluses who revere murderers and believe they can't get laid because of societal degeneracy?
Are you complaining that the article isn't specifically about a different, but related, problem? There's not exactly a shortage of articles describing these issues.
IMO your comment is a rather unfair interpretation of OPs and you come across as attacking a straw man.
It seems pretty clear to me that OP was referring to the circumstances they believe can potentially lead to people becoming an incel (i.e. social isolation, lack of prospects, internet reclusive, etc), and because of articles like this, that label being applied to others who are in a similar situation but haven't turned into "sex-obsessed recluses who revere murderers and believe they can't get laid because of societal degeneracy", and that undermining efforts (e.g. UBI) which may help those people.
p.s. And to be clear, I don't entirely agree with OP. IMO articles like this highlighting even the extreme cases are helpful for determining the causes behind those outcomes, so then ways to address them can be found... but I also suspect OPs fear isn't entirely unfounded either, since another user in this very comment section questioned the sustainability of UBI based on this rather extreme case.
To be fair, I think OP's comment is an unfair interpretation of the article, and he comes across as attacking a straw man as well.
That's basically my issue, even if the core idea of the comment has merit, it completely misses the point of the article and it seems strange to me that it'd be applauded for this.
Yeah, that's entirely fair, too.
My bad. I edited my comment. I should have just made a reply as I referenced Diode's comment. My comment was mostly about UBI and how mainstream media buying into these articles about incels can damage the reputation of the larger majority that can benefit from UBI, such as myself.
I still hate the idea of incels and anybody who would report on them because they're a joke. But what makes me more concerned is how it could be used politically to push back against various kinds of social welfare such as UBI for moderate citizens. But... Ya know... Journalism being exaggeration and cutting edge whoda thunk
I'm not sure why you hate incel reporting, considering they are a very real and very dangerous community of individuals that lash out at people and can cause serious real-world harm. I don't see the correlation between people who report on incels and people pushing back on social welfare.
We absolutely should take them very seriously, lest they fester and cause even more harm.
and to be clear, it's not just that they can, it's that they do. aside from the obvious ones like elliot rodgers, we're still not even a year removed from the toronto van attack that killed ten, and we're not six from the tallahassee yoga shooting
Can you elaborate on this? They absolutely exist, and understanding fringe groups that exist, regardless of how crazy they are, is important if our goal is to stop them from recruiting and brainwashing people. We need to understand the problems that they share, to understand how to work towards a solution.
The same can be said of "welfare queens" or the alt right or neonazis or any other fringe group imaginary or not that exists among the lower rungs of income.
I would say even though incels are a national/global concept, I don't see any kind of national/global action that can be taken to alleviate their suffering and potential violent reactions. Incels can only be handled locally, by the local police and local government.
However, Vice and any other large publisher like NYtimes or WaPo or Huff or reporting on a national or arguably global level so we're giving a fringe group that can't be handled on that level a large audience and my opinion is that it a) does nothing or b) hurts the perception of the larger group of people who are simply young people struggling a broken economy because of sensationalism. On one hand it's not Vice's fault but on the other hand every journalist knows reporting on the majority of Americans experiencing economic adversity is boring and instead reporting on a fringe group who is potentially violent and very polarizing is great for "entertainment" to be honest. And we can also kind of mention the Streisand effect where if you give these people credit it makes them larger. What was a fringe group can become a large group with a lot of steam in the engine I mean look at Trump's supporters. We ALL thought his supporters were a joke and his campaign would be a hilarious flop basically comedy gold and then out of nowhere he's the president of the United States. We live in a time where we can really truly saying anything can happen lol. The internet puts everything on the table
So, ultimately this is just my opinion in relation to Diode's comment about UBI being unsustainable long term because of people like that who are actively choosing to not participate etc. And that just flipped a switch for me because I know for a fact there is a larger group of people who are willing to work and achieve things and could benefit from UBI. So yes, fringe groups exist and can be dangerous. But I'm still more concerned about national policies that can help an entire country over how dangerous some fringe group that will probably fade in and out of relevance.
You are aware that they chose that name for themselves, right?
Well that's Vice for you. I don't think anybody is buying into the narrative hard except for people who are far left or far right (aka people who are pure cancer lol).
But yeah the irony is that people who are doing okay in life will say have you tried this, have you tried that. And they are baffled that I am doing nothing wrong and still getting screwed over by the system. Being a young white male who doesn't have an emotionally/financially supportive family right now is a disaster. At least where I am in Los Angeles, I apply all day and have done several interviews and just haven't gotten a job. I mean these are jobs that anyone can do. So it's either luck of the draw or somebody who has certain niches that HR fills have a benefit of the doubt. I fill NONE of the niches. I don't tick a single box lol
And yeah I'm just sitting at my parents, a physically and mentally healthy 28 year old man with previous work experience in design and marketing (but no college degree). And even though I'm looking for work this is still "all my fault" in the eyes of anybody above me. And it's socially unacceptable to complain about parents not being parents, it's seen as scapegoating. Because I'm older so I have to accept responsibility now... But believe me getting screwed over in your teens puts you back in a big way.
I watched my best friend, only child with two supportive and intelligent parents, just casually walk through high school and 4 year college and move back home for a year, then got a job and moved in with his GF and now they're married and own a home at age 30. I spent most of my childhood with him doing the same things he did. We surfed and skateboarded and played video games. We didn't party. We didn't get in trouble. I thought we were equals as a teenager. When I graduated high school realizing I wasn't going to live the life he's about to go off to... I felt sick to my stomach. Like I was lied to. I did music my entire education and wanted to apply to a 4 year and try to get a music scholarship. It was a long shot but I wanted to try one. The app fee was $100. My father wouldn't pay it. From that day on I valued myself at $0 in the eyes of most people, my parents most importantly.
I am walking, breathing, living wasted potential. And this story isn't even uncommon. It's actually more likely you will have stupid parents who don't know how to raise their children in changing times than to have a personality disorder. There should be a movement about what to do with all the wasted potential from stupid ass parents having kids when their teenagers and shit lol. Disorders are important but they're probably less common. And yes, UBI is definitely one of those solutions to the problem
You're talking about an entirely different problem though. The article is about incels, a very specific culture of people that identify with the label. Most of them are not where they are because of a lack of support. In fact, the opposite is true in most cases. Many of them are supported exclusively by their parents, and are unable to attract women primarily due to their toxic mindset and self re-enforcing world view.
What you're talking about is are larger more widespread economic issues, which are important, and probably more important than incels, but it's not at all what the article is about. "Inceldom" isn't a problem that UBI or any other economic policy can fix.
this article is from last year and the dude at the center of this piece is definitely on the better, less misogynistic/assholish/just generally fucked up scale of incels (which says a lot!), so there is that caveat although the dude is friends with people who are much more like your stereotypical incel. interesting little piece nonetheless.
(oh and as an aside, i haven't tagged this as NSFW since the overwhelming majority of the piece is mundane, but there's a fairly NSFW vignette in this involving someone shitting themselves, so some of you may wish to be mindful of that.)
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but while I was reading this I thought about furries. Furries tend to fit a similar background; young, low self-confidence, issues fitting in with society, etc. I see this and I wonder why the balance has shifted from a largely supportive group to a group centered entirely around self-destruction.
I left the furry fandom years ago after making some drastic changes in my life. My life was going places and I didn't need that kind of support anymore. But every time I looked back, I could see my community shrinking. There are so few people on the MUCKs anymore. I now hear about Nazi furries and others on the alt-right. I just can't understand what happened.
aside from the fact that this can mostly be attributed to furry fandom being relatively open to people that are generally outcasts from mainstream society, most furries are only self-destructive insofar as they predominantly represent classes of people that are more likely to be unstable and mentally ill. it shouldn't really come as a surprise to people that a community predominantly made up of non-straight, non-cis, neurodivergent people also tends to be considerably more unstable than other communities. you're jamming together a bunch of demographics that disproportionately suffer from mental illness and suicidality, predominantly for reasons out of their control; that's just not conducive to community stability, generally speaking.
there's not really a basis to the idea that this is a sudden shift or that furries aren't still generally a supportive group of people, either. furries have always had an undercurrent of self-destruction--self-destruction is part of why things like the burned furs in the early days of the internet proliferation of furry fandom were things that happened and altered the course of the community. equally true though is the fact that the support within the community has not gone away. if anything, there's a case to be made that the community is more supportive than ever specifically because of things like twitter and reddit and discord, which have carved out communities within the broader community, and the rise of 'mainstream' furry figures like sonicfox who actually embrace what the community is instead of trying to sanitize it.
nothing happened, really.
if anything, furries that make a point of stating their ideological beliefs are increasingly radical to the left, not the right--it's just that alt-furries happen to be a particularly small and yet vocal minority since there are a bunch of shitheel popufurs that buy into it. most of the twitter furries i know period for example (even the ones that are ostensibly apolitical on twitter) are either some flavor of leftist or anarchists, and alt-furs are so marginalized within the broader community at this point they've essentially had to form their own little communities independent of it on places like telegram. also, furries are increasingly consolidated on places like reddit, discord, and twitter, so there's that.
Thank you very much for your insight. I guess it should have been more obvious that it's hard to keep track of a group when you're not invested anymore. I'm very happy to see that it hasn't gone for the worst like I had feared.
It's kind of funny. At that point in my life my depression was really bad and I was suicidal. Yet now I don't really understand l'appel du vide and people's tendency to choose destruction over salvation. I suppose that's why we call that part of ourselves "the darkness"; it is formless, nebulous, and unknowable.
There was an interesting episode of the Reply-All podcast that looked at how the incel community started and how it was, at first, a supportive environment. A short excerpt:
The culture of incels is interesting to me because it means one of two things, either:
These people have been taught to value sex so highly that not having sex means you are worthless.
There's something about self-loathing that causes people to confuse self-worth with sex appeal.
I'm not sure which way the causality runs.
I actually don't think it's either. I originally thought it had something to do with placing an extreme amount of value on sex, but now I think it's something a lot bleaker/darker. These are people that have gone beyond self-loathing and into violent misanthropy. A lot of what they do is fueled completely by hatred of others because they've externalized all of their issues and problems into the world. Their definition of love and what it means to be in a relationship is also completely and utterly twisted because to them, the woman must be completely subservient.
It may have started as overemphasizing sexual desire, but they end up being radicalized into a movement willing to commit murder because of how much they hate the other. If you've ever had a cursory glance at some of their forums, boards, discussions etc it is frankly terrifying.
I think something of what @teaearlgraycold was saying holds merit in that regard though, as one user on twitter put it very well:
A common thread among incel is that they seem to have fully bought in to the notion that their worth as men is defined by having had sex, and by extension by being sexually attractive. And because they view this as a necessary rite of passage rather than a normal part of human relationships they only court women with trite, surface-level achievements they think must necessary result in sex. One well-known video in which (I believe) Elliot Rodger explains to the camera about what he considers ought to be the reasons girls should be attracted to him: politeness, self-care, his above-average car, really shows how deeply engrained this belief can be that sex should happen provided one corresponds to their idea what a "man" should be. Something we might recognize as the prototypical "Nice Guy" behaviour.
Aside from this, it's really not hard to find confirmation of the belief that a man's worth rests in his ability to sleep with women, because we're all very ready to make fun of men unable (or unwilling) to do so. Incels usually spend a lot of time on the internet and I imagine they're frequently exposed to jokes about "virgin losers" or other memes suggesting that not having sex equates to being worthless as a person.
All of this together with an inability to consider that their foundational beliefs about masculinity might be wrong or toxic most likely means they have no other way to make sense of the world but by believing they've been "cheated" in some way, and that it is the fault of women/feminism/society at large for not playing by the rules they think to have understood. And that's where it turns to misanthropy: when they feel that integration into society is fundamentally out of reach, because of actions by other people outside of their control, the anger and hatred starts, and ultimately the revenge fantasies. Because revenge in their eyes is maybe the only way they have left of reasserting control.
This article reminds me of welcome to the NHK. Its an anime about a person that doesnt leave there house (hikikomori) and it deals with a lot of similar themes (depression, suicide, isolation, mental health). I would recommend it to anyone. It's one of my favorite.