I have no interest in dating, but i’ve started complimenting people (men and women) and… well, i don’t think there is any faster track to dating than being nice, talking to people, and not having...
I have no interest in dating, but i’ve started complimenting people (men and women) and… well, i don’t think there is any faster track to dating than being nice, talking to people, and not having any sort of agenda.
if i were eager to date, i’d try to meet there randos every day that i am physically attracted to. not a difficult goal at all.
when i was briefly doing the online dating thing to prove the ratings OKC gave [1], I found that people wanted to chat too much on the app, then we’d get together and some struggled. For me, i don’t care about careers or the normal small talk — i want to know how someone handles the mundane and if they can hold a conversation about nothing.
if i ever date again, ill most likely skip online dating or use it as a crap-shoot. i think meeting people in public is best. i think the entire approach to dating these days is extremely flawed.
[1] very accurate; best compatibility was around 80%; 99% was like a sister)
The biggest barrier for men in online dating isn't the honesty but overcoming the gender imbalance and everything that comes with it. It seems straightforward to you because I'm guessing you had...
The biggest barrier for men in online dating isn't the honesty but overcoming the gender imbalance and everything that comes with it. It seems straightforward to you because I'm guessing you had an attractive profile and plenty of candidates as a result - this isn't the case for vast vast majority of men. That's the key to it, it becomes difficult to fail if your photos make you stand out from hundreds of other men in every woman's matches.
FYI I don't disagree with your point about needing to be respectful and honest, but everyone talking about their experiences on dating apps will be speaking from their own bubble of circumstances and it's important to remember that.
I think you may be underestimating yourself, underestimating broader context (year of participation, local scene, etc), and or overestimating the correlation between effort and result here. For...
I think you may be underestimating yourself, underestimating broader context (year of participation, local scene, etc), and or overestimating the correlation between effort and result here.
For background: I’ve always been relatively popular with both men and women as a platonic friend, but historically never a romantic interest. I’m not hideous, but far from handsome, and have always been a muscleless twig despite an active physical lifestyle. I’ve never brought negativity or desperation from repeated rejection into my social interactions. I did eventually connected with someone on an app who I would go on to marry, so I’m thankfully done with all of this shit now.
I was on OKC, Plenty of Fish, Tinder, Coffee Meets Bagel, and a few other free services (avoided the paid ones like the Match family due to their inherent conflict of interest). It was the golden days in terms of the quality of these services, when OKC was still publishing interesting analysis and before the buyouts and focus on paid boosts.
It was like a part time job for most of a decade, putting in a few hours every day, without exaggeration. Catching up on all new (or newly single) members within an hour drive (included two large cities and some universities), writing thoughtful answers to questions, filling out various match-influencing surveys, updating and polishing my profile and photos, and most importantly of all writing personalized first messages with easy conversation starters to interesting people. Set myself a minimum of one a day every day, but usually sent a lot more. Couldn’t count how many many swipes a day on ones like Tinder. Periodically solicited and incorporated feedback from friends and internet strangers from different demographics.
All of that, excluding illegitimate accounts, and I was averaging single-digit responses leading to one first date each year for my many hundreds of messages, many hundreds of hours, and thousands of swipes. I continued to also try meeting people in traditional real world avenues through friends and parties during this, which had even less romantic success (plenty of new platonic friends).
While I don’t know the full extent of their troubles, I know a number of other great guys who have had similar outcomes for their efforts. Some are still struggling down the path.
What a great write-up! I'd like to review some of your pointers. For context, I'm a woman in my 40s, I've been online dating since its inception and it's been mostly a positive experience for me....
What a great write-up! I'd like to review some of your pointers.
For context, I'm a woman in my 40s, I've been online dating since its inception and it's been mostly a positive experience for me. The results so far: found the love of my life (13 years together), one other serious LTR, three solid forever type friendships, a bunch of nice dates and only two truly bad dates over the decades I've been doing this.
Points 1 - 5: I agree 100%. No further comments.
6: You don't have to be brutally honest or self flagellating, but going too far into the other direction will ensure there's a deflating experience in your future (if they care about the thing you misrepresented) or at best, it won't get you any extra benefit. In my experience being positively surprised is way better than being disappointed and disproportionately so. Meaning when it occurs to me that the guy I'm seeing deliberately did not tell me everything about himself that he knows to be attractive, this makes me more excited than the reverse experience makes me disappointed.
7: Not sure about the fantasy vs. reality thing when applied to photos (or otherwise). Pushed too far, fantasy can work against you. I'm looking for a normal person, not a professional mountain climber slash triathlonist slash competitive ballroom dancer slash vintage car restoration enthusiast who will be unable to kick back in our pajamas and watch a film with me on the couch. Obviously, diverse photos that show what you actually look like, how you dress and what your life is like are good to have.
10: Look, I'm a smart person. I am able to decide whether or not your big belly is such a dealbreaker to me that it's not worth it to start talking to you even if your profile is otherwise extremely intriguing (it isn't - I mean the belly isn't that big of a dealbreaker). I like men who are able to let me make my own decisions and who trust that I'm able to make good ones. Also refer to item 6.
11: I don't ever pay for Tinder and I've matched with lots of average guys who also don't. I really don't think it's necessary but I admit that I don't have full visibility on what it's like for guys. As for myself, if I paid to see likes, would I then start matching with only those people who already liked me? If yes, and the other person does the same, then I will never match with some highly compatible people just because neither person liked the other first. No thank you.
12: Yes. Saying something about the person's profile is a great way to show you've actually read it and your like is at least partially based on it. Would recommend! I'd even go as far as "If there's nothing in their profile that made you interested enough to mention, then don't match with them".
13: Perfectly said, all of it.
14: Yes to both the generic advise (identify your strengths) and the particular experience you describe. Chatting long enough to actually get excited makes for a MUCH better first date. Almost everyone is trying to rush things and not only can that come off as insecure, it also means that a lot of the boring basic stuff that could have been covered by messaging will now be covered on the date.
In your case it probably didn't matter one way or another, seeing as you didn't outright lie. I have a friend who misrepresents his age. He can get away with it for a while because he does look...
I understand. In my experience, no one ever cared, and if they asked, I pretty much laughed and said what I wrote in #6. I must say, at that period, I was very insecure about my career status, and that was probably why I wrote that. In the end, as I say, the women didn't really care or pressed me about it. So I might as well just have said I was a film major and leave it that.
In your case it probably didn't matter one way or another, seeing as you didn't outright lie. I have a friend who misrepresents his age. He can get away with it for a while because he does look younger than his age. At some point the truth comes out though. He tells me that most women are okay with it. But he also tends to end up with women that he eventually gets frustrated with because they lack integrity. I mean, why filter out the high integrity people by lying to them if that's what you really care about?
Just picture this: suppose you are in love with an astronaut. When they passionately talk about their job, are you enchanted by orbital dynamics or the allure of the cosmos that somehow lives through? That is what someone might a "healthy fantasy" because without that kind of endearment that goes beyond the strictly actual, love is not really possible. I don't know. Maybe that's a bad explanation. Bad poetry. Sorry.
No, that's a perfect explanation of what you actually meant and I do agree! There is more to us than the mundane, even though everyday life compatibility is very important, to me at least. Ideally I want to find both.
For me, compatibility is ultimately about finding someone whose less savoury traits are tolerable to you and yours to them. Best case scenario: you actually like some of their traits that many others see as flaws. Most people have some traits that I admire. Some people have lots of them, plus overlapping interests and more or less matching values. Finding someone like this isn't super hard. But compatibility comes from matching flaws, and that to me is the hardest to find because so many people have been socialised to hide theirs at all costs.
At some point, I learned that, if you match everyone, you'll soon get tangled in conversations with people you have nothing in common with. That's not fun.
Very true. Also, at least on Tinder, the algorithm will limit your visibility if you mass-swipe on everyone. It indicates low effort and makes for a worse experience for the people being swiped on which is usually women, seeing as heterosexual men are more commonly mass swiping. The apps already have a problem with too few women using them so of course they're trying to keep as many happy as they can.
I only chose to keep one, because talking to her was genuinely exciting, she was interested in what I had to say and vice-versa. We talked for months during the pandemic without meeting. That woman is my wife ;)
Yay, congrats! This is actually how I decide whether or not I'll go on a date. If I'm excited to talk with them, then I know it's going to be a fun date regardless of outcomes. I don't often come by someone like this, but I'd rather meet just a couple people a year than get exhausted and jaded from frequent dates that feel like work.
I forgot to respond to this. Yes, it's perfectly fine to "curate" your profile so that the belly isn't an attention-grabbing centerpiece. At first I got the impression that you cut it out...
Let me put it this way: if you had 1000 photos of yourself to choose from, from many times, angles, expressions, postures, and settings. Would you put in your profile the photos that make you feel more confident or more insecure? I am clearly insecure about my belly, so I naturally gravitate to pictures in which it is not as salient. I think I can be afforded that vanity, no?
I forgot to respond to this. Yes, it's perfectly fine to "curate" your profile so that the belly isn't an attention-grabbing centerpiece. At first I got the impression that you cut it out entirely, as in only had photos showing your face and shoulders. If you had some that showed your normally dressed figure, then it's again a case of not outright lying and therefore not a problem.
I want to thank you again for writing point 13 about courtship and accepting rejection gracefully. I wish everyone could be taught this at school or something. The world would be so much better!
I'm able to very consistently get dates with not much work, but it's hard for me to find people attractive. So there's some learning about what I need to do and see for that to happen. But there...
I'm able to very consistently get dates with not much work, but it's hard for me to find people attractive. So there's some learning about what I need to do and see for that to happen. But there is also a difficult balance of keeping early dates simple and fun while still bringing up that I'm in some gray zone of asexuality within a reasonable amount of time.
Oh I'm aware and I broadly agree with you, went through a similar journey myself. Just didn't get that vibe from your previous post describing it as straightforward.
Oh I'm aware and I broadly agree with you, went through a similar journey myself. Just didn't get that vibe from your previous post describing it as straightforward.
I think this pretty much sums it up. Be respectful, honest, and open --- and understand that not everything will pan out, but ultimately, you only need one. People often take rejection in these...
I think this pretty much sums it up. Be respectful, honest, and open --- and understand that not everything will pan out, but ultimately, you only need one.
People often take rejection in these situations too personal. If a person isn't in to be, there's no way in hell I want to suffer through 30+ years with them.
I made an account on a certain kinky community website a few years back and immediately got 25x more success on there meeting new people and having meaningful connections than I did on all my...
I made an account on a certain kinky community website a few years back and immediately got 25x more success on there meeting new people and having meaningful connections than I did on all my years of Tinder, Bumble, and Hinge combined. And I even had what I would consider to be a pretty well put together profile too, high effort prompt responses and good quality photos of interesting experiences. I'm not a total hottie but I've been told I'm not too far down the scale, at least now that I put on 50lb of muscle (I was a 115 pound twig before.)
It honestly feels that if you aren't in the top 5% of men (not in like an alpha male way or anything stupid like that, just general attractiveness) you just have no chance on making meaningful matches on the dating apps these days; especially if you have fairly high standards. And I know that's not just my experience either, most young guys in my circle are just completely disenfranchised from dating apps, they've moved back to more traditional ways of meeting people, like getting introduced at parties or being friends of friends or coworkers.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the biggest problem men have with dating in the modern era is that they're just too boring. I've lost all of the details, but there is a theory of evolutionary...
I have a sneaking suspicion that the biggest problem men have with dating in the modern era is that they're just too boring. I've lost all of the details, but there is a theory of evolutionary biology that states that one of the things that makes reproduction "work" is that women have their choice of men to reproduce with. So if you think of the heterosexual dating world as a meat market for women to choose from, then the thing that men need to try to do hardest is to stand out! Especially considering that digital dating sites give filtered impressions - men do not have the benefit of their pheremones or ability to change how they sell themselves according to how a woman reacts to them.
The way to play that game is to lean hard into the things that make you unique. Kink is a good example. If you're fat, go to a place that caters to people who are into bigger guys. If you have a nerdy hobby, wave that flag with pride. Anyone can be attracted to anything, so the best thing you can do is to sell yourself based on what stands out rather than just saying you're a twenty-something man with a job, a car, and an apartment who's hobbies are listening to music and browsing Instagram. Those might all be things that women want, but it's not going to be the thing that will intrigue them enough to message you.
I believe that most guys have some notion of this theory, but are at a loss when it comes to applying it because outside of a small handful of "safe" interests/activities/etc (sports, outdoorsy...
I believe that most guys have some notion of this theory, but are at a loss when it comes to applying it because outside of a small handful of "safe" interests/activities/etc (sports, outdoorsy stuff, etc) there's a perceived high risk of coming off as weird, off-putting, or otherwise undesirable that's difficult to get past.
This would logically apply the most to guys trying to cast a wide of a net as possible because they don't actually know which type of person they're looking for or which type they're generally most compatible with, resulting in a doomed attempt to try to appeal to everybody that leaves visitors with a forgettable impression.
There’s also the issue of perception where guys assume (correctly or not) the dating pool in their preferred niche is either too small or too unappealing to be worth bothering, so they try their...
There’s also the issue of perception where guys assume (correctly or not) the dating pool in their preferred niche is either too small or too unappealing to be worth bothering, so they try their luck with something generic.
For example, a straight brony in search for a non-fat cis woman is likely to presume that he’d have better luck trying to date one of the unicorns on TV than finding someone he’s attracted to in the community with guaranteed prescreened personality compatibility.
Back when I was on the apps I had this tension between marketing the unique things about me and coming off as those things constituting the extent of my personality. Advertising my academic...
Back when I was on the apps I had this tension between marketing the unique things about me and coming off as those things constituting the extent of my personality. Advertising my academic credentials could come off as intimidating, advertising my competitive strength accomplishments makes me sounds like a jock. Further, I didn't necessarily want to attract academics or other gym rats.
Further everyone talks about the "bio" being an important place to hook potential matches. That's a pretty big barrier for a lot of people. Sure it can identify red flags, but I don't think the people I'd be interested in are necessarily good at summarizing themselves in a paragraph.
Hinge was my favorite, it circumvented a lot of this stuff and provided good ice breaking info. For how much I hate the apps it did land me the greatest woman in the world.
Absolutely, striking the right balance in photos and bio is very challenging, and you can never really know how others are going to perceive them no matter how much time you spend refining them. I...
Absolutely, striking the right balance in photos and bio is very challenging, and you can never really know how others are going to perceive them no matter how much time you spend refining them.
I wonder how much of this could be improved by simply changing up the format. For example, maybe instead of being presented with a bottomless deck of short profiles to glance at and swipe through, you're presented with a small number of more detailed ones every day or week or something.
This sound a bit like how Coffee Meets Bagel started and was it’s defining feature. You got presented a single profile each day. That was it. Quickly deciding wouldn’t achieve anything, so people...
This sound a bit like how Coffee Meets Bagel started and was it’s defining feature. You got presented a single profile each day. That was it. Quickly deciding wouldn’t achieve anything, so people would actually spend time considering profiles and taking more chances conversing without the gambling drive “just one more swipe, maybe it’ll be an even bigger winner!” I’ve heard that’s no longer their approach.
That is a humane solution (since it guarantees a finite end to the madness), so no for-profit app will use it. However, it is what the market actually needs. Give people a hard cap on the profiles...
you're presented with a small number of more detailed ones every day or week or something
That is a humane solution (since it guarantees a finite end to the madness), so no for-profit app will use it.
However, it is what the market actually needs. Give people a hard cap on the profiles they can swipe through. Perhaps none of them are worthwhile that week, but it's a strong enforcement that it's time to close the apps and touch grass until your queue resets next week.
You're absolutely right but it's not just that, you must be able to convey that you're interesting in a handful of photos and 1-3 seconds of attention span, you also need to look attractive, deal...
You're absolutely right but it's not just that, you must be able to convey that you're interesting in a handful of photos and 1-3 seconds of attention span, you also need to look attractive, deal with the fact that she may not even swipe enough through paid users to see you, there may not be that many women in your area using the app, etc etc etc
Are you looking for a woman with a 1-3 second attention span? As someone on the other side of the fence, this feels kind of degrading. I have an infinite attention span for interesting people and...
Are you looking for a woman with a 1-3 second attention span? As someone on the other side of the fence, this feels kind of degrading.
I have an infinite attention span for interesting people and admittedly a very short one for cliché profiles that don't stand out. When I'm swiping on Tinder, my eyes are locked to the section that shows the beginning of your bio. If there's nothing there, or just a row of emojis, or something negative, or an empty hand-wavy cliché phrase, I move on.
If I see the beginning of what could be an intriguing high-effort text, I open the profile and read it. If I really like the bio, I check for dealbreakers in the checkbox section. If there are none, I check the photos. I don't care about genetics but sometimes I find a person's style off-putting (greasy hair, those thin long curtain type beards, neck tattoos, very gaudy clothing if the person doesn't have an eye for style, etc.). If I don't dislike what I see, I will send a like and a message.
Profiles like this are so rare that I absolutely swipe through the paid users regularly. My city isn't huge so a few days of active swiping gets me through all available profiles and I start seeing them all again (some are shown again more often, probably the ones who paid to increase their visibility or who already liked mine). After swiping through all the profiles that the algorithm believes are attractive to me, I start seeing all types of profiles. I've been shown and matched with celebrities, a person who travels in a helicopter and CEO:s of successful companies. I also see regular people living completely normal lives, and I see people who seem borderline homeless. I see completely empty profiles, profiles with only landscape photos and no text, etc. I don't believe that there's anyone the app isn't showing me after I've been browsing for a while. Of course this process takes longer in a larger city, but given how many times I've already gone through the entire stack in my city, I would have seen everyone by now in a city 3-4 times as large.
If I were a guy looking for a woman like me, I'd put all my effort and energy towards creating a profile that communicates my character, values and dreams as fully as possible. It's not so much about if she sees your profile. Rather: when she sees your profile, will she a) open it to read, and b) recognise from it what a great match you two are.
Not sure why you would take this personally, but I'll try to explain. If it takes you a few days to swipe through everyone, you're somewhere remote, using an unpopular app or swipe for hours...
Not sure why you would take this personally, but I'll try to explain.
If it takes you a few days to swipe through everyone, you're somewhere remote, using an unpopular app or swipe for hours non-stop with paid subscription. There's no way that would happen otherwise in a city with even a million people. OR possibly you spend an unbelievably small amount of time on each, in which case my point about 1-3 seconds of attention stands.
Since there are so many people on the app and since it's very unlikely you're going to meet each individual one, it doesn't make any sense to spend copious amounts of effort to check all of these boxes you're listing. It only makes sense to do so if you want to meet many people and/or you're already naturally attractive and got photos of it. Basically this is also where the whole "swipe right on everyone and shoot a quick dirty message" strategy comes from, because if you invest heavily into every single match you're just going to go crazy from frequent rejections and time wasted.
Trying to appeal to someone who has a ton of requirements means they probably are going to be the same in life as well. Personally I always looked for someone down to earth and fun so what you describe isn't really a winning strategy. More broadly, it's better to be likable to the type of person you want to actually date, be it punks, nerds, CEOs or whoever else.
No worries, I wasn't personally offended. It's just something I see quite often, even with some real life friends of mine: coming up with a strategy that effectively removes your best matches from...
No worries, I wasn't personally offended. It's just something I see quite often, even with some real life friends of mine: coming up with a strategy that effectively removes your best matches from your dating pool, even when they are on the same app and see your profile.
Strategies geared towards casting the widest possible net are like looking for a needle in a haystack and asking for more hay. Unless of course you're specifically looking for someone who represents the average user of the apps. I don't know you personally so perhaps my comment was out of place in that respect.
Editing to add: About having "a ton of requirements". If you read again, you'll probably notice that I'm not exceptionally picky at all. I just look for people who are able and willing to show themselves. Most are not. They seem to be trying to get someone to like them based on their looks or other superficial things. That's fine but not what I'm looking for. Valuing authenticity doesn't mean I automatically have a ton of requirements - in fact I bet these are negatively correlated if anything.
I mean you're just wrong. Authentic profiles don't get any matches unless you are naturally good looking, carefully crafted in the best possible light profiles do. First impression is all that...
I mean you're just wrong. Authentic profiles don't get any matches unless you are naturally good looking, carefully crafted in the best possible light profiles do. First impression is all that matters because, once again, you're only grabbing her attention for a few seconds at most before the first filter. It's just not possible to accurately represent a person in a short bio and a few pictures so the best possible strategy is crafting a coherent persona that your preferred matches will like.
I also have a male friend who was casting a wide net and getting nowhere. He listened to my advice, made changes accordingly and has been doing decently ever since. Then there's the guy commenting...
I also have a male friend who was casting a wide net and getting nowhere. He listened to my advice, made changes accordingly and has been doing decently ever since. Then there's the guy commenting on here who says he is average looking, who did it the way I would recommend (more or less) and had a good experience.
Every time I hear of someone having a bad experience, they're trying to appeal to as many users as possible. Just saying.
I didn't say to appeal to as many users as possible, I said the exact opposite: My point is that authentic reality isn't very appealing for almost everyone. Dating profiles and social media offer...
I didn't say to appeal to as many users as possible, I said the exact opposite:
the best possible strategy is crafting a coherent persona that your preferred matches will like.
My point is that authentic reality isn't very appealing for almost everyone. Dating profiles and social media offer a sanitized, curated version of it. Well posed, well lit, taken at the right angles, wearing outfits you probably don't wear every day, with hair and makeup and whatnot done, doing something you probably don't do every day.
Okay, I misinterpreted some of what you were saying. I agree that picking the best photos out of a bunch isn't a bad idea and thinking of what to say or not, etc. There's limited space for...
Okay, I misinterpreted some of what you were saying.
I agree that picking the best photos out of a bunch isn't a bad idea and thinking of what to say or not, etc. There's limited space for information so naturally your profile will be curated in some way.
I personally don't have my hair and make up done in most photos and there's only one where I'm not doing everyday things (hobbies count as everyday!). I very much care about the life I'd be sharing with my future partner.
I also care about their flaws because tolerable flaws is a far better indicator of compatibility than enjoying each other's good traits. Like I said before, I put a huge emphasis on the written bio and I love seeing someone portray themselves in a way that communicates deep self-awareness and acceptance. Hard to do within 500 characters, sure, but not impossible. This is what I mean by authenticity. Perhaps your definition for the word is inherently negatively charged?
Unfortunately I think you're probably right. I really don't like talking myself up (despite my previous comment) so its difficult for me to do so on a dating app, but its probably necessary to...
Unfortunately I think you're probably right. I really don't like talking myself up (despite my previous comment) so its difficult for me to do so on a dating app, but its probably necessary to have at least some bravado in your profile. I believe I had a pretty interesting profile, especially based on the responses I got from women who unfortunately were not my type, it was just difficult to attract the people that I was personally attracted to.
For what it's worth, talking yourself up is not necessary in my opinion and can even be off-putting. I tend to swipe left anyone who claims to possess any universally admired traits (honest, good...
I really don't like talking myself up (despite my previous comment) so its difficult for me to do so on a dating app, but its probably necessary to have at least some bravado in your profile.
For what it's worth, talking yourself up is not necessary in my opinion and can even be off-putting. I tend to swipe left anyone who claims to possess any universally admired traits (honest, good sense of humour, emotionally stable, well off, positive attitude, reliable). You should rather have a profile that shows you are those things without having to explicitly say so - for example, write in a way that makes me laugh rather than say "I will make you laugh".
Akir is right about the importance of standing out though. Openly communicating your polarising traits/interests makes you stand out in a positive way. As long as you're not apologetic about it, no extra bravado is needed. Just the mere mention that you do needlepoint work as a hobby shows that you have healthy confidence. Almost everyone I see is trying to cast as wide a net as possible, but that's not attractive because it does make a profile seem very boring, and it makes my job a lot harder when I have no idea what the person is actually like.
For context, I'm a woman in my 40's and I've been online dating ever since the first dating site was launched in my country.
It turns out that meeting people in person helps smooth out a lot of the filters that 'rule out' candidates online when you're reduced to photographs and a resume.
It turns out that meeting people in person helps smooth out a lot of the filters that 'rule out' candidates online when you're reduced to photographs and a resume.
My guess is, community makes all the difference. Especially one that places emphasis on establishing trust and communicating clear boundaries. I think the root of many social issues today is that...
My guess is, community makes all the difference. Especially one that places emphasis on establishing trust and communicating clear boundaries. I think the root of many social issues today is that communities have been replaced by products and services, leaving many isolated.
This is really interesting to see. I was getting to breaking point with the apps before my current relationship, so I think had I still been single I would have definitely been on this trend. It...
This is really interesting to see. I was getting to breaking point with the apps before my current relationship, so I think had I still been single I would have definitely been on this trend.
It gives me the same feeling as the old OKC days before they got bought by Match group, which is nice. I kinda hope the whole "date me doc" goes somewhere because it seems like a genuinely nice way for nerdy people wanting a realtionship to get in touch again.
When I was struggling for a relationship (from 2018 to 2021, the hard times) I went through every app and actually met my partner on reddit r4r eventually on a bet that it would be a waste of time.
I'm sure if I stayed on the apps I would have met someone eventually, but god it was depressing.
I'm curious what happened to OKC? A few different comments have mentioned it here and it's how my partner and I met back in 2014. I remember really liking it and promoting it (maybe too much)...
I'm curious what happened to OKC? A few different comments have mentioned it here and it's how my partner and I met back in 2014. I remember really liking it and promoting it (maybe too much) among friends.
I really enjoyed the introspection of answering questions and reading what others think.
Match.com bought it and started taking down the best features one by one. Including sabotaging the match algorithm itself. Most recently they removed the ability to choose which questionnaire...
I'm curious what happened to OKC?
Match.com bought it and started taking down the best features one by one. Including sabotaging the match algorithm itself. Most recently they removed the ability to choose which questionnaire answers matter to you and the opportunity to add a written explanation of the answers. You can also no longer freely search and browse profiles based on match percentage, location or other factors (not sure if these are available for paying customers). Also, it's now based on swiping like all the others, not browsing a feed like it used to be.
It's effectively like Tinder with a poor questionnaire and more room to write a bio. The latter feature is why I'm still on it.
I think I find it odd that when dating apps failed, their solution was to build another dating app. Has meeting people in person gotten more difficult in the seven years since I was last single?
I think I find it odd that when dating apps failed, their solution was to build another dating app. Has meeting people in person gotten more difficult in the seven years since I was last single?
I think that over the years as the internet has risen to prominence and particularly since the pandemic, people on average have become more reserved and unwilling to initiate or accept...
I think that over the years as the internet has risen to prominence and particularly since the pandemic, people on average have become more reserved and unwilling to initiate or accept interactions with strangers, which has made meeting people more difficult.
On the part of more conscientious hetero guys, there’s also perhaps some level of overcorrection of respect for boundaries/consent that’s adding friction — these guys don’t want to end up being one of those unwelcome interactions they’ve read/heard heard about and are overly cautious, even though they were probably not actually a part of the problem (usually it’s guys who aren’t thoughtful that are). Tiptoeing around like that is counterproductive though, because it’s not likely to make for an impression that catches anybody’s interest.
It’s kinda like people’s various gauges for social interactions have drifted out of calibration.
I relate to every part of that, but in a strange way that's the reason why I don't understand. Dating apps put you in front of (as far as I saw it at the time) a large number of judgemental...
I relate to every part of that, but in a strange way that's the reason why I don't understand. Dating apps put you in front of (as far as I saw it at the time) a large number of judgemental strangers. Instead of enduring that I hit up acquaintances, coworkers, classmates etc., not strangers. I was no social butterfly either, I was just around people my age on a weekly or daily basis. I met my wife at a Taekwon-do class.
A big part of the value proposition of dating apps is pretext. Most using dating apps are there for the express purpose of meeting partners, which removes doubt and makes it more clear what...
A big part of the value proposition of dating apps is pretext. Most using dating apps are there for the express purpose of meeting partners, which removes doubt and makes it more clear what is/isn’t acceptable. If you’re rejected it’s because the other person isn’t intrigued by you, not because they aren’t looking to date, aren’t of compatible orientation, etc — it removes the guesswork to some extent. Rejections mostly materialize in the form of an empty inbox, which some find easier to stomach than face to face rejections. There’s also the whole thing with how mentally, internet people don’t seem as “real” until met in real life which somewhat counters the judgmental nature of dating app users.
As far as drawing from real life connections goes, I get the impression that dating coworkers is increasingly unpopular due to the risks involved (having to see each other at work after things souring). The other settings depend on people doing those things (e.g. taking classes), and a lot of people don’t or even can’t, depending on time, energy, money available.
Piggybacking on this and your earlier comment: At least from the loudest discussion, young people (mostly men) have been hearing it’s not ok to approach someone while they’re doing anything not...
Piggybacking on this and your earlier comment: At least from the loudest discussion, young people (mostly men) have been hearing it’s not ok to approach someone while they’re doing anything not explicitly indicating they’re open to the approach. e.g. Class or club? They’re there for the focus, not dating. Don’t ruin it, bother them, or make them feel “unsafe” in any way since you’ll still be in the group together after. There’s obviously more nuance in practice, consent and respect are important, rules 1 and 2 usually apply. Obviously people are still navigating that minefield everyday with varying degrees of success, but it can be a stressful mess particularly for those with either less experience or lots of only-rejection experience. Those wanting to be respectful can sidestep that entire issue: Dating sites are one of the very few places where it’s clear you’re “allowed” to show relationship interest in someone.
I have no interest in dating, but i’ve started complimenting people (men and women) and… well, i don’t think there is any faster track to dating than being nice, talking to people, and not having any sort of agenda.
if i were eager to date, i’d try to meet there randos every day that i am physically attracted to. not a difficult goal at all.
when i was briefly doing the online dating thing to prove the ratings OKC gave [1], I found that people wanted to chat too much on the app, then we’d get together and some struggled. For me, i don’t care about careers or the normal small talk — i want to know how someone handles the mundane and if they can hold a conversation about nothing.
if i ever date again, ill most likely skip online dating or use it as a crap-shoot. i think meeting people in public is best. i think the entire approach to dating these days is extremely flawed.
[1] very accurate; best compatibility was around 80%; 99% was like a sister)
The biggest barrier for men in online dating isn't the honesty but overcoming the gender imbalance and everything that comes with it. It seems straightforward to you because I'm guessing you had an attractive profile and plenty of candidates as a result - this isn't the case for vast vast majority of men. That's the key to it, it becomes difficult to fail if your photos make you stand out from hundreds of other men in every woman's matches.
FYI I don't disagree with your point about needing to be respectful and honest, but everyone talking about their experiences on dating apps will be speaking from their own bubble of circumstances and it's important to remember that.
I think you may be underestimating yourself, underestimating broader context (year of participation, local scene, etc), and or overestimating the correlation between effort and result here.
For background: I’ve always been relatively popular with both men and women as a platonic friend, but historically never a romantic interest. I’m not hideous, but far from handsome, and have always been a muscleless twig despite an active physical lifestyle. I’ve never brought negativity or desperation from repeated rejection into my social interactions. I did eventually connected with someone on an app who I would go on to marry, so I’m thankfully done with all of this shit now.
I was on OKC, Plenty of Fish, Tinder, Coffee Meets Bagel, and a few other free services (avoided the paid ones like the Match family due to their inherent conflict of interest). It was the golden days in terms of the quality of these services, when OKC was still publishing interesting analysis and before the buyouts and focus on paid boosts.
It was like a part time job for most of a decade, putting in a few hours every day, without exaggeration. Catching up on all new (or newly single) members within an hour drive (included two large cities and some universities), writing thoughtful answers to questions, filling out various match-influencing surveys, updating and polishing my profile and photos, and most importantly of all writing personalized first messages with easy conversation starters to interesting people. Set myself a minimum of one a day every day, but usually sent a lot more. Couldn’t count how many many swipes a day on ones like Tinder. Periodically solicited and incorporated feedback from friends and internet strangers from different demographics.
All of that, excluding illegitimate accounts, and I was averaging single-digit responses leading to one first date each year for my many hundreds of messages, many hundreds of hours, and thousands of swipes. I continued to also try meeting people in traditional real world avenues through friends and parties during this, which had even less romantic success (plenty of new platonic friends).
While I don’t know the full extent of their troubles, I know a number of other great guys who have had similar outcomes for their efforts. Some are still struggling down the path.
What a great write-up! I'd like to review some of your pointers.
For context, I'm a woman in my 40s, I've been online dating since its inception and it's been mostly a positive experience for me. The results so far: found the love of my life (13 years together), one other serious LTR, three solid forever type friendships, a bunch of nice dates and only two truly bad dates over the decades I've been doing this.
Points 1 - 5: I agree 100%. No further comments.
6: You don't have to be brutally honest or self flagellating, but going too far into the other direction will ensure there's a deflating experience in your future (if they care about the thing you misrepresented) or at best, it won't get you any extra benefit. In my experience being positively surprised is way better than being disappointed and disproportionately so. Meaning when it occurs to me that the guy I'm seeing deliberately did not tell me everything about himself that he knows to be attractive, this makes me more excited than the reverse experience makes me disappointed.
7: Not sure about the fantasy vs. reality thing when applied to photos (or otherwise). Pushed too far, fantasy can work against you. I'm looking for a normal person, not a professional mountain climber slash triathlonist slash competitive ballroom dancer slash vintage car restoration enthusiast who will be unable to kick back in our pajamas and watch a film with me on the couch. Obviously, diverse photos that show what you actually look like, how you dress and what your life is like are good to have.
10: Look, I'm a smart person. I am able to decide whether or not your big belly is such a dealbreaker to me that it's not worth it to start talking to you even if your profile is otherwise extremely intriguing (it isn't - I mean the belly isn't that big of a dealbreaker). I like men who are able to let me make my own decisions and who trust that I'm able to make good ones. Also refer to item 6.
11: I don't ever pay for Tinder and I've matched with lots of average guys who also don't. I really don't think it's necessary but I admit that I don't have full visibility on what it's like for guys. As for myself, if I paid to see likes, would I then start matching with only those people who already liked me? If yes, and the other person does the same, then I will never match with some highly compatible people just because neither person liked the other first. No thank you.
12: Yes. Saying something about the person's profile is a great way to show you've actually read it and your like is at least partially based on it. Would recommend! I'd even go as far as "If there's nothing in their profile that made you interested enough to mention, then don't match with them".
13: Perfectly said, all of it.
14: Yes to both the generic advise (identify your strengths) and the particular experience you describe. Chatting long enough to actually get excited makes for a MUCH better first date. Almost everyone is trying to rush things and not only can that come off as insecure, it also means that a lot of the boring basic stuff that could have been covered by messaging will now be covered on the date.
In your case it probably didn't matter one way or another, seeing as you didn't outright lie. I have a friend who misrepresents his age. He can get away with it for a while because he does look younger than his age. At some point the truth comes out though. He tells me that most women are okay with it. But he also tends to end up with women that he eventually gets frustrated with because they lack integrity. I mean, why filter out the high integrity people by lying to them if that's what you really care about?
No, that's a perfect explanation of what you actually meant and I do agree! There is more to us than the mundane, even though everyday life compatibility is very important, to me at least. Ideally I want to find both.
For me, compatibility is ultimately about finding someone whose less savoury traits are tolerable to you and yours to them. Best case scenario: you actually like some of their traits that many others see as flaws. Most people have some traits that I admire. Some people have lots of them, plus overlapping interests and more or less matching values. Finding someone like this isn't super hard. But compatibility comes from matching flaws, and that to me is the hardest to find because so many people have been socialised to hide theirs at all costs.
Very true. Also, at least on Tinder, the algorithm will limit your visibility if you mass-swipe on everyone. It indicates low effort and makes for a worse experience for the people being swiped on which is usually women, seeing as heterosexual men are more commonly mass swiping. The apps already have a problem with too few women using them so of course they're trying to keep as many happy as they can.
Yay, congrats! This is actually how I decide whether or not I'll go on a date. If I'm excited to talk with them, then I know it's going to be a fun date regardless of outcomes. I don't often come by someone like this, but I'd rather meet just a couple people a year than get exhausted and jaded from frequent dates that feel like work.
I forgot to respond to this. Yes, it's perfectly fine to "curate" your profile so that the belly isn't an attention-grabbing centerpiece. At first I got the impression that you cut it out entirely, as in only had photos showing your face and shoulders. If you had some that showed your normally dressed figure, then it's again a case of not outright lying and therefore not a problem.
I want to thank you again for writing point 13 about courtship and accepting rejection gracefully. I wish everyone could be taught this at school or something. The world would be so much better!
May as well post it, I also had a "system" though I wouldn't describe it as such, rather more like a set of things that worked.
I'm able to very consistently get dates with not much work, but it's hard for me to find people attractive. So there's some learning about what I need to do and see for that to happen. But there is also a difficult balance of keeping early dates simple and fun while still bringing up that I'm in some gray zone of asexuality within a reasonable amount of time.
Well it'd be interesting to see if you ever do, whether it matches my experience or not.
Oh I'm aware and I broadly agree with you, went through a similar journey myself. Just didn't get that vibe from your previous post describing it as straightforward.
Sure, but I wouldn't say that making a standout profile and then gaming the chats is straightforward either. It takes experience.
I think this pretty much sums it up. Be respectful, honest, and open --- and understand that not everything will pan out, but ultimately, you only need one.
People often take rejection in these situations too personal. If a person isn't in to be, there's no way in hell I want to suffer through 30+ years with them.
I made an account on a certain kinky community website a few years back and immediately got 25x more success on there meeting new people and having meaningful connections than I did on all my years of Tinder, Bumble, and Hinge combined. And I even had what I would consider to be a pretty well put together profile too, high effort prompt responses and good quality photos of interesting experiences. I'm not a total hottie but I've been told I'm not too far down the scale, at least now that I put on 50lb of muscle (I was a 115 pound twig before.)
It honestly feels that if you aren't in the top 5% of men (not in like an alpha male way or anything stupid like that, just general attractiveness) you just have no chance on making meaningful matches on the dating apps these days; especially if you have fairly high standards. And I know that's not just my experience either, most young guys in my circle are just completely disenfranchised from dating apps, they've moved back to more traditional ways of meeting people, like getting introduced at parties or being friends of friends or coworkers.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the biggest problem men have with dating in the modern era is that they're just too boring. I've lost all of the details, but there is a theory of evolutionary biology that states that one of the things that makes reproduction "work" is that women have their choice of men to reproduce with. So if you think of the heterosexual dating world as a meat market for women to choose from, then the thing that men need to try to do hardest is to stand out! Especially considering that digital dating sites give filtered impressions - men do not have the benefit of their pheremones or ability to change how they sell themselves according to how a woman reacts to them.
The way to play that game is to lean hard into the things that make you unique. Kink is a good example. If you're fat, go to a place that caters to people who are into bigger guys. If you have a nerdy hobby, wave that flag with pride. Anyone can be attracted to anything, so the best thing you can do is to sell yourself based on what stands out rather than just saying you're a twenty-something man with a job, a car, and an apartment who's hobbies are listening to music and browsing Instagram. Those might all be things that women want, but it's not going to be the thing that will intrigue them enough to message you.
I believe that most guys have some notion of this theory, but are at a loss when it comes to applying it because outside of a small handful of "safe" interests/activities/etc (sports, outdoorsy stuff, etc) there's a perceived high risk of coming off as weird, off-putting, or otherwise undesirable that's difficult to get past.
This would logically apply the most to guys trying to cast a wide of a net as possible because they don't actually know which type of person they're looking for or which type they're generally most compatible with, resulting in a doomed attempt to try to appeal to everybody that leaves visitors with a forgettable impression.
There’s also the issue of perception where guys assume (correctly or not) the dating pool in their preferred niche is either too small or too unappealing to be worth bothering, so they try their luck with something generic.
For example, a straight brony in search for a non-fat cis woman is likely to presume that he’d have better luck trying to date one of the unicorns on TV than finding someone he’s attracted to in the community with guaranteed prescreened personality compatibility.
Back when I was on the apps I had this tension between marketing the unique things about me and coming off as those things constituting the extent of my personality. Advertising my academic credentials could come off as intimidating, advertising my competitive strength accomplishments makes me sounds like a jock. Further, I didn't necessarily want to attract academics or other gym rats.
Further everyone talks about the "bio" being an important place to hook potential matches. That's a pretty big barrier for a lot of people. Sure it can identify red flags, but I don't think the people I'd be interested in are necessarily good at summarizing themselves in a paragraph.
Hinge was my favorite, it circumvented a lot of this stuff and provided good ice breaking info. For how much I hate the apps it did land me the greatest woman in the world.
Absolutely, striking the right balance in photos and bio is very challenging, and you can never really know how others are going to perceive them no matter how much time you spend refining them.
I wonder how much of this could be improved by simply changing up the format. For example, maybe instead of being presented with a bottomless deck of short profiles to glance at and swipe through, you're presented with a small number of more detailed ones every day or week or something.
This sound a bit like how Coffee Meets Bagel started and was it’s defining feature. You got presented a single profile each day. That was it. Quickly deciding wouldn’t achieve anything, so people would actually spend time considering profiles and taking more chances conversing without the gambling drive “just one more swipe, maybe it’ll be an even bigger winner!” I’ve heard that’s no longer their approach.
That is a humane solution (since it guarantees a finite end to the madness), so no for-profit app will use it.
However, it is what the market actually needs. Give people a hard cap on the profiles they can swipe through. Perhaps none of them are worthwhile that week, but it's a strong enforcement that it's time to close the apps and touch grass until your queue resets next week.
You're absolutely right but it's not just that, you must be able to convey that you're interesting in a handful of photos and 1-3 seconds of attention span, you also need to look attractive, deal with the fact that she may not even swipe enough through paid users to see you, there may not be that many women in your area using the app, etc etc etc
Are you looking for a woman with a 1-3 second attention span? As someone on the other side of the fence, this feels kind of degrading.
I have an infinite attention span for interesting people and admittedly a very short one for cliché profiles that don't stand out. When I'm swiping on Tinder, my eyes are locked to the section that shows the beginning of your bio. If there's nothing there, or just a row of emojis, or something negative, or an empty hand-wavy cliché phrase, I move on.
If I see the beginning of what could be an intriguing high-effort text, I open the profile and read it. If I really like the bio, I check for dealbreakers in the checkbox section. If there are none, I check the photos. I don't care about genetics but sometimes I find a person's style off-putting (greasy hair, those thin long curtain type beards, neck tattoos, very gaudy clothing if the person doesn't have an eye for style, etc.). If I don't dislike what I see, I will send a like and a message.
Profiles like this are so rare that I absolutely swipe through the paid users regularly. My city isn't huge so a few days of active swiping gets me through all available profiles and I start seeing them all again (some are shown again more often, probably the ones who paid to increase their visibility or who already liked mine). After swiping through all the profiles that the algorithm believes are attractive to me, I start seeing all types of profiles. I've been shown and matched with celebrities, a person who travels in a helicopter and CEO:s of successful companies. I also see regular people living completely normal lives, and I see people who seem borderline homeless. I see completely empty profiles, profiles with only landscape photos and no text, etc. I don't believe that there's anyone the app isn't showing me after I've been browsing for a while. Of course this process takes longer in a larger city, but given how many times I've already gone through the entire stack in my city, I would have seen everyone by now in a city 3-4 times as large.
If I were a guy looking for a woman like me, I'd put all my effort and energy towards creating a profile that communicates my character, values and dreams as fully as possible. It's not so much about if she sees your profile. Rather: when she sees your profile, will she a) open it to read, and b) recognise from it what a great match you two are.
Not sure why you would take this personally, but I'll try to explain.
No worries, I wasn't personally offended. It's just something I see quite often, even with some real life friends of mine: coming up with a strategy that effectively removes your best matches from your dating pool, even when they are on the same app and see your profile.
Strategies geared towards casting the widest possible net are like looking for a needle in a haystack and asking for more hay. Unless of course you're specifically looking for someone who represents the average user of the apps. I don't know you personally so perhaps my comment was out of place in that respect.
Editing to add: About having "a ton of requirements". If you read again, you'll probably notice that I'm not exceptionally picky at all. I just look for people who are able and willing to show themselves. Most are not. They seem to be trying to get someone to like them based on their looks or other superficial things. That's fine but not what I'm looking for. Valuing authenticity doesn't mean I automatically have a ton of requirements - in fact I bet these are negatively correlated if anything.
I mean you're just wrong. Authentic profiles don't get any matches unless you are naturally good looking, carefully crafted in the best possible light profiles do. First impression is all that matters because, once again, you're only grabbing her attention for a few seconds at most before the first filter. It's just not possible to accurately represent a person in a short bio and a few pictures so the best possible strategy is crafting a coherent persona that your preferred matches will like.
You are responding to someone who routinely matches with plain looking guys with authentic profiles.
You're giving matches to good profiles that look authentic. Sure.
I also have a male friend who was casting a wide net and getting nowhere. He listened to my advice, made changes accordingly and has been doing decently ever since. Then there's the guy commenting on here who says he is average looking, who did it the way I would recommend (more or less) and had a good experience.
Every time I hear of someone having a bad experience, they're trying to appeal to as many users as possible. Just saying.
I didn't say to appeal to as many users as possible, I said the exact opposite:
My point is that authentic reality isn't very appealing for almost everyone. Dating profiles and social media offer a sanitized, curated version of it. Well posed, well lit, taken at the right angles, wearing outfits you probably don't wear every day, with hair and makeup and whatnot done, doing something you probably don't do every day.
Okay, I misinterpreted some of what you were saying.
I agree that picking the best photos out of a bunch isn't a bad idea and thinking of what to say or not, etc. There's limited space for information so naturally your profile will be curated in some way.
I personally don't have my hair and make up done in most photos and there's only one where I'm not doing everyday things (hobbies count as everyday!). I very much care about the life I'd be sharing with my future partner.
I also care about their flaws because tolerable flaws is a far better indicator of compatibility than enjoying each other's good traits. Like I said before, I put a huge emphasis on the written bio and I love seeing someone portray themselves in a way that communicates deep self-awareness and acceptance. Hard to do within 500 characters, sure, but not impossible. This is what I mean by authenticity. Perhaps your definition for the word is inherently negatively charged?
Unfortunately I think you're probably right. I really don't like talking myself up (despite my previous comment) so its difficult for me to do so on a dating app, but its probably necessary to have at least some bravado in your profile. I believe I had a pretty interesting profile, especially based on the responses I got from women who unfortunately were not my type, it was just difficult to attract the people that I was personally attracted to.
For what it's worth, talking yourself up is not necessary in my opinion and can even be off-putting. I tend to swipe left anyone who claims to possess any universally admired traits (honest, good sense of humour, emotionally stable, well off, positive attitude, reliable). You should rather have a profile that shows you are those things without having to explicitly say so - for example, write in a way that makes me laugh rather than say "I will make you laugh".
Akir is right about the importance of standing out though. Openly communicating your polarising traits/interests makes you stand out in a positive way. As long as you're not apologetic about it, no extra bravado is needed. Just the mere mention that you do needlepoint work as a hobby shows that you have healthy confidence. Almost everyone I see is trying to cast as wide a net as possible, but that's not attractive because it does make a profile seem very boring, and it makes my job a lot harder when I have no idea what the person is actually like.
For context, I'm a woman in my 40's and I've been online dating ever since the first dating site was launched in my country.
It turns out that meeting people in person helps smooth out a lot of the filters that 'rule out' candidates online when you're reduced to photographs and a resume.
My guess is, community makes all the difference. Especially one that places emphasis on establishing trust and communicating clear boundaries. I think the root of many social issues today is that communities have been replaced by products and services, leaving many isolated.
This is really interesting to see. I was getting to breaking point with the apps before my current relationship, so I think had I still been single I would have definitely been on this trend.
It gives me the same feeling as the old OKC days before they got bought by Match group, which is nice. I kinda hope the whole "date me doc" goes somewhere because it seems like a genuinely nice way for nerdy people wanting a realtionship to get in touch again.
When I was struggling for a relationship (from 2018 to 2021, the hard times) I went through every app and actually met my partner on reddit r4r eventually on a bet that it would be a waste of time.
I'm sure if I stayed on the apps I would have met someone eventually, but god it was depressing.
I'm curious what happened to OKC? A few different comments have mentioned it here and it's how my partner and I met back in 2014. I remember really liking it and promoting it (maybe too much) among friends.
I really enjoyed the introspection of answering questions and reading what others think.
OKC sadly got bought up by Match Group (which owns the majority of dating apps) and became as awful as or worse than the rest.
Match.com bought it and started taking down the best features one by one. Including sabotaging the match algorithm itself. Most recently they removed the ability to choose which questionnaire answers matter to you and the opportunity to add a written explanation of the answers. You can also no longer freely search and browse profiles based on match percentage, location or other factors (not sure if these are available for paying customers). Also, it's now based on swiping like all the others, not browsing a feed like it used to be.
It's effectively like Tinder with a poor questionnaire and more room to write a bio. The latter feature is why I'm still on it.
Jeez, that is really disappointing. Thanks for sharing though
I think I find it odd that when dating apps failed, their solution was to build another dating app. Has meeting people in person gotten more difficult in the seven years since I was last single?
I think that over the years as the internet has risen to prominence and particularly since the pandemic, people on average have become more reserved and unwilling to initiate or accept interactions with strangers, which has made meeting people more difficult.
On the part of more conscientious hetero guys, there’s also perhaps some level of overcorrection of respect for boundaries/consent that’s adding friction — these guys don’t want to end up being one of those unwelcome interactions they’ve read/heard heard about and are overly cautious, even though they were probably not actually a part of the problem (usually it’s guys who aren’t thoughtful that are). Tiptoeing around like that is counterproductive though, because it’s not likely to make for an impression that catches anybody’s interest.
It’s kinda like people’s various gauges for social interactions have drifted out of calibration.
I relate to every part of that, but in a strange way that's the reason why I don't understand. Dating apps put you in front of (as far as I saw it at the time) a large number of judgemental strangers. Instead of enduring that I hit up acquaintances, coworkers, classmates etc., not strangers. I was no social butterfly either, I was just around people my age on a weekly or daily basis. I met my wife at a Taekwon-do class.
A big part of the value proposition of dating apps is pretext. Most using dating apps are there for the express purpose of meeting partners, which removes doubt and makes it more clear what is/isn’t acceptable. If you’re rejected it’s because the other person isn’t intrigued by you, not because they aren’t looking to date, aren’t of compatible orientation, etc — it removes the guesswork to some extent. Rejections mostly materialize in the form of an empty inbox, which some find easier to stomach than face to face rejections. There’s also the whole thing with how mentally, internet people don’t seem as “real” until met in real life which somewhat counters the judgmental nature of dating app users.
As far as drawing from real life connections goes, I get the impression that dating coworkers is increasingly unpopular due to the risks involved (having to see each other at work after things souring). The other settings depend on people doing those things (e.g. taking classes), and a lot of people don’t or even can’t, depending on time, energy, money available.
Piggybacking on this and your earlier comment: At least from the loudest discussion, young people (mostly men) have been hearing it’s not ok to approach someone while they’re doing anything not explicitly indicating they’re open to the approach. e.g. Class or club? They’re there for the focus, not dating. Don’t ruin it, bother them, or make them feel “unsafe” in any way since you’ll still be in the group together after. There’s obviously more nuance in practice, consent and respect are important, rules 1 and 2 usually apply. Obviously people are still navigating that minefield everyday with varying degrees of success, but it can be a stressful mess particularly for those with either less experience or lots of only-rejection experience. Those wanting to be respectful can sidestep that entire issue: Dating sites are one of the very few places where it’s clear you’re “allowed” to show relationship interest in someone.