On being attractive
This is going to sound conceited, and it is. But I thought I would share my experiences regarding this. For context, I'm in year two of being considered conventionally attractive. I used to be morbidly obese, and I spent the years 17 to 23 being really big. In high school, I was only briefly considered attractive, but considering how short that was, I generally say I wasn't attractive in high school. Which is to say that the idea that I am attractive is still relatively new, and I'm still learning the ropes of my different life. I won't be sharing any photos, but I'm often told that I look like a young Mark Ruffalo.
I'm going to split this into parts.
Everyone is nicer
As soon as I lost the weight, I was treated a lot better. To be clear, I wasn't treated that terribly when I was overweight. In my experience, people were generally nice. But there were some times when people would just ignore me or try not to look like me. I recall one moment, in college, while I was walking across campus, this one girl was in front of me. She kept giving me the over-the-shoulder look and then ran off since she detected danger.
Those moments existed, but they weren't my overwhelming experience. What shifted was that people became overly nice towards me. People go out of their way to talk to me, to help me, or to make sure I'm okay. I haven't encountered an incident where a girl thinks I'm a creep or anything like that since.
Women approach men
I think there's this idea in the dating world that women never approach men. I've seen a lot of TikTok videos and Reddit posts where the gist is "no matter how handsome you are, women DO NOT approach men." And they will give anecdotes of "good-looking" friends who have also not been approached by women.
That's not true at all. I have been approached quite a bit, especially in the nightclub and bar setting. There are women who are not shy at all, or they are shy but they're trying something different. The one thing I've noticed, and this is going to sound mean, the women most likely to approach a guy tend to not be very attractive. The most attractive woman who approached me (and she was very pretty) approached me with the help of a friend.
Even if women don't outright approach you, they give signals as their way of making the first move. Often at the bar or club, it's a lot of staring. They stare, look away, look back again to make sure you're staring.
I work in a predominantly female workplace. So the signals in this are a little different. A lot of my co-workers go out of their way to chat with me. They often look for excuses to touch me or to get closer to me. They'll look at me when they don't think I'm looking. Recently, I had a higher-up worker start messaging me through the work chat we use and inviting me to her office for treats that she makes. They don't say anything out loud, it's just sort of obvious that they find me attractive.
Rejection stings, especially when they're not used to it
Going back to the workplace. We have cops at my work as security. It's kind of well-known that the male cops sleep with the staff. But none of the female cops really do that. I would chat with this one cop, she's quite a bit older than me (actually, she has a daughter that's exactly my age). But she is gorgeous. It started off slow; we just looked at each other for a while before I started talking to her. But we built up enough of a rapport that one day she gave me a big opening for me to ask her out. I didn't. Someone that pretty is not used to not being pursued, so she became more guarded and avoidant of me.
That was kind of a somber example. A more aggressive example was at a dance club. This woman gave me the eye contact signal, but I did not approach her. Flash forward a bit, I'm on the dance floor, and she pushes me. It wasn't an accident; it was very aggressive, and she was obviously drunk.
There are more examples that I can give, but the reaction is never that great. And I've learned that I hate making people feel that way. It's what I imagine a woman feels like when they rejects men, it's so much pressure. Especially when the woman is attractive herself, there's a sadder response from them because they're not used to that.
I was not prepared to be in a situation where I could hurt someone's feelings. Not just that, but I can hurt someone's feelings by not doing anything. It used to be simple. I didn't really have options or anything like that, so when the opposite came true, where I had to pick and choose between people, it was daunting. Almost paralyzing. At one point, I had three women interested in me at the same time, and I could not figure out how to pick one to escalate things with. At the time, I was not in the mental space to be in that situation anyway, and I think I made the overall best decision I could have (which was to not do anything with any of them) since I think things wouldn't have ended well for any of them. Even if all three of them felt a sting from that sort of soft rejection.
People assume the best in you
I don't know how many times I've been told that I seem like a nice guy. And that goes even after I've done something bad, or say some off-color stuff. I don't think I would be given that grace if I were maybe a little bit uglier.
People just assume the best of me now; they assume good intentions. One time when I was out, I had danced with a woman who was part of a group. I sat at their table, and they asked me to look after their drinks as they went to the bathroom. In my head, I thought, "Okay, they're leaving, they're not coming back, because what woman is going to trust their drink with a stranger?" They came back.
Not that I was going to do anything, nor do I intentionally try to make people feel bad (barring one time where I was testing the waters).
At the same time, people think you're sleeping around
I was a virgin until last year; it seemed like a shock whenever I would say that. When I did manage to finally lose it, the person I lost it to always thought I was sleeping with a lot of people. I've had many people think that I'm sleeping around, that I've had multiple sex partners, and somehow don't seem convinced when I try to tell them I'm not, and I don't.
I've tried different styles. When I keep to myself and when I'm overly chatty. People think the same either way.
I've been on dates where the other person assumes I'm "talking" to someone else. Like, if I use my phone for a bit, the assumption is I'm texting someone.
Conclusion
I seem to have more eyes on me now. The invisibility cloak I once had is gone and now everything I do or say carries more weight. I'm more at risk of hurting someone's feelings just by not being attracted to them. And having someone that you find attractive finding you attractive is a scary thing.
I've spoken to a very attractive woman who told me about her experiences, and while there are some similarities it's basically tenfold for women. Attractive women get gifts, people offering to buy stuff for her, just a lot more intensity. Especially since it's more socially acceptable for men to do that for women. It's not something I envy, and it fills her with anxiety and rage with how often she has to reject men.
I would say overall it's a much more positive life I'm living now, but there are times when I miss being the one nobody looked at and nobody had expectations for. I'd just eat and watch movies all day. There was a comfort to that over the healthy eating and workout regimen I do now.
It really isnt. You mentioned those sobering moments of aggression from rejected women. Now imagine it's people who easily have 50-100+ lbs on you, far higher upper body strength, and those people probably didn't grow up dealing with their feelings and emotions with a network of supportive female friends. And they have an invisible choir of Macho Dudes urging them on to "regain lost honour" from being rejected by a mere woman.
Yeah, I think this context is lost by most men. I'm adding this here in case other men are like me and are unaware of just how bad things are. I hope this doesn't come off like mansplaining, I'm just hoping to add to your example. I had always heard stories about incidents from women I dated or friends - the old trope of a bad date for a man is boring and for women is violent - but it wasn't until I was 27 when I learned how scary it can be for women, all the time.
A good friend of mine's girlfriend had gotten a black eye from when she was getting hit on: she had been out at a club with friends, a man approached her and started aggressively hitting on her, she told him to get lost, he only got more intense, her friend told him to fuck off and the guy who was hitting on her attempted to punch him but hit her in the face instead. A few days later my friend, his girlfriend, my girlfriend, and I all sitting around talking about it, and he starts telling her she needs to be more careful. Both his girlfriend and my girlfriend tell him to shut up, rightly so, and start unloading about all the stories we didn't know about and how common things like this were.
Getting followed home from the bars by men and having to wait it out in a restaurant or bar. Having to ask the bartender to call them a cab to avoid a man who was waiting for them to leave. Having to abandon drinks because they might be spiked. Having to remove their online footprint because of stalkers. Having horrible, sexual things whispered in their ear, even when we were standing right next to them. Having their hair pulled and getting asked how they liked it. Having to indulge men because they didn't have a safe exit. Getting threatened with violence and rape by people that lived in their apartment complex. The list went on and on and on and on.
We were both shocked. I have lots of women friends. I have a sister and step sister. I had heard stories of scary instances, but I kind of dismissed that as one offs. I had experienced scary one offs, you know? But having it all laid out like that really changed my perspective. Women endure an unbelievable amount of abuse. It's horrible, and most men are completely oblivious.
Edit: fixed a whole slough of typos
Thank you, rosco. It's not always bad, but we're always aware that it could become bad.
OP mentioned another negative that people assume they're promiscuous because they're attractive. It's doubly dangerous for women to be perceived as promiscuous by violent people.
Being attractive is also about a lot more things than physical appearance.
It's also about behavior, smell, activities/interests, personality, how a person makes those around them feel, how those around a person treat them and so on. On the internet, that often doesn't get the space it deserves based on how much it factors into things.
The male friend I have who gets hit on the most is also the heaviest of my friends. He's funny, flirty, extremely extroverted, dances and is good with kids (and love playing with them). He is present in the moment and attentive. When you give attention, of course you'll get more attention. And when you're seen getting attention, you get more attention.
Yes, there are factors that can't be changed or are hard to change.
Yes, appearance matters.
Yes, taking care of oneself matters in all regards, whether that's physical health, sleeping enough, personal hygiene, having a hair cut that suits you, being well-dressed, and yes, being at a healthy weight matter significantly.
In meatspace as opposed to online, appearance often isn't the first filter in a social setting. Behavior and interaction are way more important.
Being socially savvy is also an extremely important factor in succeeding professionally. Those who're stuck in the social mores of college or even high school when they're adults struggle.
There's some aspects of this that I disagree with.
I think your appearance largely is the first thing that people notice about you. Looking at you is a much faster thing than chatting with you for a few minutes to get a sense of your personality. I think subconsciously people will make a quick judgement just based on how you look, people can fight against that and I've met people who outright say they try not to do that. But seems largely instinctual, I don't think it's as affected by societal standards. I think it's pretty widely acknowledged that babies prefer to look at attractive faces so that's just ingrained into our psyche.
Again not really true. Not to say that social skills are not important in careers, obviously they are, but I think that downplays how looks factor into every part of life, even getting jobs in the first place.
I also disagree that people ever grow out of the high school mentality, especially when it comes to romantic relationships. I work in Family Court, I've known many people who have been married for years and divorced, people in their 40s who are dating. It appears to be never ending, I think we overestimate how mature people actually are.
The only thing I can't really argue with is your friend. Cause that's obviously real. But it does seem like, whenever someone acknowledges that they aren't good-looking and they struggle to date because of that that the advice is always to be confident, to style better, to have broad interests. I don't think that outlook is wrong necessarily, that's the outlook referred to as the bluepill online, but it again downplays the importance of looks and frustrates the lived in experiences of the majority. I also have interests, I also like to think of myself as funny, I think I'm a good conversationalist, and I also like to dance and I'm good at it. To the point that that mattered when I was obese, people wouldn't be attracted to me right away but could become attracted to me after getting to know me. This only happened a couple of times throughout my four years in college. But now it's more of an additional quality, looks gets me in the door but my personality keeps them around, which is what even some blackpillers believe. I have more broad appeal now rather than relying on a few women who maybe didn't care about looks all that much.
Taking a look also doesn’t require the person’s involvement, unlike conversation, and human brains are pretty notorious for doing split-second evaluations of everything in their environment to be able to function and not get overwhelmed in a torrent of data. Thinking about it that way it seems practically impossible to stop one’s own brain from doing that to other people, otherwise there’s big uncomfortable holes in the world model that can’t be filled without conversations.
It may be best to acknowledge this structural mental weakness instead of denying it, which in theory should make it easier to conciously override.
Yes!
I think where some of this cognitive dissonance comes from is because by definition most people are average looking. It’s just as rare to see someone really beautiful as it is someone in the opposite direction. So the judgements made to someone that looks middle of the road isn’t extreme in either direction. It’s probably also why it’s difficult for people to see things from the perspective of someone that well below average. And I think I’m able to see this because I’ve lived life as someone that was very unattractive and someone that is above average.
It's crazy, and I've talked to people about it before: when I worked in person, I almost never got a high level of respect, or that I could tell especially women workers didn't really take me seriously, some of it was that I was young, but a non-zero amount is because I'm short for a guy (5'5) I don't have any complex about this, nor do I really care especially at work.
When I switched to remote work......world of difference, it's insane, I've been promoted more, taken seriously, respected, I would like to say I'm a good worker, I think I probably am but nothing exceptional. But with my exposure to others being limited to my voice and my face, which I think I have a fairly attractive face, especially when viewed dead on, it's just so different I get whiplash. What's funny is a lot of my coworkers once I started working remote....almost all of them are also short lol. When I was in person all the higher ups that were male were typically 6ft+, it's just insane how much an impact it has. Just wanted to piggyback my anecdote on your point on how it affects career.
Congrats on your successes! Along a similar lines, going remote was such a relief workwise in terms of physical presentation (I'm a pretty average mid-30s woman, for what it's worth).
In office, I got that appearance matters to how I'm perceived in a business context, so I put effort into my attire, presentation, makeup, hair styling. Which can be fun when I want to, but day in and out it's just wasted effort.
Pandemic + an office culture that didn't demand cameras-on? I got peer respect and even a promotion with a hoodie, unkempt bun, and blank face. Bliss. I spent so little money on clothing, and so little time preening before work.
I look older now than I did 5 years ago, and I question how I'll be perceived as I keep aging, especially as a woman, especially-especially in a tech adjacent field, in terms of career impact. It's also tough that I feel the early stages of the midlife "stop giving a F*" coming on, as my older women pals have alluded to, meaning I personally don't want to care.
That’s very interesting and it would be cool if some researcher could do a study showing how remote work helps office workers with shorter stature. (I mean as a more general phenomenon at other companies, too.)
I know an elderly relative who never grew out of the teen era "ew she's old and gross; this one is attractive and my kind of people" way of judging people. My advice is to steer clear of them at any age as soon as you can: these are not quality people and yes they end up in your family courts.
There's a whole bunch you don't see at family court who grew out of it, became mature people, and found fellow mature people to marry, and stay married to them.
Right now you have the good blessing of being attractive, and you'll attract a lot of the high school drama people: there are a bunch of the others who don't even go out partying and dancing at all. Wish you the best of luck navigating past them when you're ready to stop casually dating.
Like OP this has not been my experience. My change hasn't been nearly as drastic, my issue was that I simply looked way too young for a long time, and a 16 years old looking skinny nerdy guy just isn't taken very seriously outside of immediate social circles. I used to not dress very well, so that together with a haircut was my first step, actually learned how to sew to tailor my clothes because that was shortly before the era of widely available slim/skinny fit clothes started. But nothing really changed much.
Then I grew a beard and long hair, started looking like a mid to late 20s reasonably attractive adult (though not as attractive as OP), and that was when the approach of people around me changed, most visibly random people who didn't know me.
My behavior and confidence did change after a while, but that was because it's simply much easier to be confident and social when people around you are usually friendly by default and you're not invisible or mildly suspicious to them. My personality and behavior was influenced by how others treated me, not the other way around.
Still talking about the "first filter" btw, other things can easily win over later, but my experience is that the example of your friend is not common and qualities like his tend to win later rather than on first impression, with the exception of being funny - but I would bet that being attractive and funny works better.
That made me laugh.
It’s interesting you bring up the young thing because when I was in high school I was a year younger than my classmates since I skipped a grade in middle school. I was also unfortunately a late bloomer, so I looked like a little kid for a little over half of my time in high school.
Interestingly enough in college, because of the weight and because of my hair loss (that I’ve revered with medication), people often thought I was in my 30s. This is the first time in my life I look around my age.
Out of curiosity, was it just min+fin (or the holy triad) or did you also do anything extra?
It was actually Dut and Min, here’s a post I did about that a while ago. I occasionally dermaroll but not nearly consistent enough for it to matter. I would recommend doing that though because the results are undeniable.
Oh, I had no clue you made a post about it! Then again, I wasn't even aware of tildes back then. Thanks for sharing!
That assumption is based on the fact that women seem to often enjoy interacting with me but they never aggressively shove me in bars when I decide not to try to have sex with them, and the "I assumed you were sleeping around" only happened twice iirc. :D Also while I'm not as skinny as I used to be, I'm very much not muscular either, and I think being below a certain threshold in that area brings a hard limit on attractiveness, even if that threshold isn't particularly high.
Yeah that angry response was not what I was expecting. Happened once when I asked to meet up with a girl (just to talk) and she got mad that we indeed just talked.
I don’t necessarily think muscles is that much of a requirement. I have some muscle but I’m not ripped or anything. I think being relatively lean in general is important but face is law.
I agree with you, feeling the difference in how people treated me after I lost >50lbs gave me a bit of imposter syndrome, and helped to remove a lot of the conflicted emotions I had putting some of that weight back on. It also helped me discover that I tend to prefer my own company over others, especially with interpersonal conflict I couldn't control, in situations similar to the one you shared.
Yeah. I lost over a hundred pounds. I remember my neighbors not recognizing who I was when they would see me walking around.
I think it’s interesting that people’s first assumption is that I’ve always looked like this. That’s fair enough but I don’t think my personality necessarily matches that. Especially since I have “nerdy” interests.
There's a very sticky element to this, where people still attribute moral character with thinness/attractiveness. Such that, you look like a nice guy now and it's inconceivable that you'd have been not a nice guy before.
I can confirm people are completely taken aback when I am not nice. I am generally a nice person, but I'll also be pretty blunt when needed. That's when people are surprised. They don't see it coming from me.
That’s an assumption everybody makes I think. To a lesser extent I experienced this too: I grew my hair and beard long and while people who know me from before know I looked different before, people I meet now don’t think twice and assume that’s how I’ve always looked: they’re surprised to see older pictures where I look different.
Congrats on the change to a healthier lifestyle.
What's interesting to me is that it sounds like you have a confident grasp on signals, flirting, etc. despite enduring a very hard time in your late teens and early adulthood, which is when most people are trying to figure that stuff out. How'd you manage that?
Most men really have no frame of reference for the experience of the average woman, much less one who's attractive, in terms of how often they're approached, and how aggressive those approaches can be. Funny enough, when the roles are reversed and they pursue, women often end up doing essentially the same things men do lol. It's healthy to have a bit of the opposite experience and gain perspective.
A lot of trial and error. I would have an interaction with a girl, report back to friends, they would say "she was trying to x, y, and z" and then build on that until I got a decent grasp of it. It happened in quick succession, since I was purposefully doing it a lot of times in a row.
I mean I was so oblivious at first that I didn't realize I was allowed to touch a girl that got on me at the club.
I'm a feminine man which makes me part of the targeted by hungry cougars demographic. This is pretty accurate in my experience, with the caveat being queer makes people even more polarizing.
The cougars are a problem. I have experienced this myself, but I never lead them on. I feel flattered, and then move on. I did witness a friend getting even more attention. He is maybe 10 years younger than me. He was really into it! He was having these "joke" exchanges with them, so they were getting more aggressive, to the point that it became uncomfortable to witness. So the guy hosted a Christmas party and invited everyone in that circle. He came up with some sort of trivia game, but it was adult-themed. Probably the most awkward Christmas party I ever attended. Long story short, after that, all the jokes ended and everyone went back to "normal". To this day I do not know if he was a genius to do this, or he just genuinely thought it was going to be a fun party.
I haven’t had any encounters in recent years, but something about me got the attention of that crowd a number of times several years back, with a couple being quite pushy, which I was entirely unprepared to handle. It never lead to negative outcomes or anything (just me awkwardly fumbling around to find an out) but it’s definitely not something I experience often as a guy.
I haven’t been in this situation so I have little to say, but you might want to check out a science fiction story by Ted Chiang: Liking What You See: A Documentary.
It’s included in an anthology that the Tildes book club is going to discuss in September.
Very interesting reading through your post. A windows into your life, far beyond the main topic of being attractive. Thanks for sharing and writing this up. First of, good job making healthy choices. Always good to have a solid exercise routine, no matter how you look and how much you weigh. I find it improves mood in general, and gives a person confidence. I would be curious if it's not just the better looks, but maybe a boost in confidence and just overall wellness that changed how you acted in public once you were conscious that you looked good. I ask because personally I do feel a boost in confidence when I stick to my workout routines and see results. I feel better about myself, which makes me more cheerful in general, which likely makes me more likeable in public too.
It was interesting reading your post because I have had such a different life experience. I'm middle aged now, but when I was your age I was finally starting to be more confident and to realize others found me handsome and likeable. In my teens I was a nerdy kid with very low self esteem. I was very skinny, and thought girls only liked guys with muscles. So I pretty much assumed no girls will like me. I was shy, introverted, nervous taking to girls. In my early to mid 20s is when things changed, I hit the gym regularly, I gained confidence, and just generally came out of my shell. However, your experience going to bars and stuff, striking conversations with women, it's something I never did in life, except for maybe 1 or 2 exceptions. I met my partner through a friend and we've been together for about 15 years so far. Before that, it was girlfriends I also met either through a friend, family member (sister's friends), work (bad idea), school, etc.
If i were single today, knowing women do find me attractive, and being more confident than I ever was, I still don't know if I'd be able to go to bars, clubs, etc. It's just not my scene. I like to meet people slowly, if that makes sense. I can't see myself picking up a random girl at the bar. I'd prefer to know the person first before "letting them in". I guess I am quite guarded, suspicious of strangers and their motives.
All that aside, if I was good looking, without realizing it, I can confirm some of what you are saying. I do find the vast majority of people treat me well. I just never realized it is different for others. I "realize" it on a reason-level / logical level, but in terms of experience, I guess I only experienced it from the same self, from the same body. While I may have gotten wiser or more confident, my looks have not changed too too much. I am told I look about 10 years younger than I am, so my life experience has been pretty consistent over the years. Sorry, my reply is jumping all over the place, but yeah, thanks again for the post. Super interesting to read.
Not really. Throughout college I had weight blindness and I suppose some sort of reverse body dysmorphia. I understood I was overweight but I didn’t grasp how different or bad I looked at the time until I lost the weight. One of my cousins who also has weight issues did tell me I always came across confident.
I think if anything I became more reserved and shy after the weight loss and after people started considering me attractive.
As for the nightclub stuff, as far is it being my “scene” I just like to dance. You can’t really do that in another setting, at least not where I’m at. But I also did want to see what would happen going out with my brand new look like this scene in A Different Man
/user/cloud_loud
Many years ago I lost 50lbs over the course of a year.
I had most of your experiences, so I agree with everything you wrote.
The experience that sticks in my mind and that still makes me cringe when I think about it is unintentionally rejecting a woman by not responding to their hints or responding soon enough. It is taken as "Fuck no, fuck you, lets JUST be friends".
I have to give you kudos to going to clubs.
I've seen many similar stories on Reddit about men who are angry because they got fit and got a better job, but did not do better with women.
They thought those were the only issues until years later, having become fit, financially solvent that having a life, having a personality, having common interests, ACTUALLY GOING WHERE SINGLE PEOPLE ARE, dressing well, good haircuts, and hygiene will also count.