Feel like if I was being framed for murder and shouting in front of the press my message would be something along the lines of "holy fuck I didn't do it help", not claiming something was an insult...
Feel like if I was being framed for murder and shouting in front of the press my message would be something along the lines of "holy fuck I didn't do it help", not claiming something was an insult to the intelligence of the American people
If that were the case, the defense would go very differently. Instead of... whatever is occuring now, the "fake" Mangione would do that would be the best results for feds: he would plead guilty,...
If that were the case, the defense would go very differently. Instead of... whatever is occuring now, the "fake" Mangione would do that would be the best results for feds: he would plead guilty, make a statement about how he did what he did in a moment of weakness/anger/whatever, the defense would pull out some witnesses that provide his character and some psychiatric evaluations, plead for forgiveness, they'd give him some time behind bars, the end.
This happens to also be a very rational defense in this case.
I don't think it really passes occam's razor. If there's anything the last year has shown, it's that the US government is quite incompetent. The level of coordination required between all parties...
I don't think it really passes occam's razor. If there's anything the last year has shown, it's that the US government is quite incompetent.
The level of coordination required between all parties to be able to do this conspiracy seems pretty beyond the level of "people who send US bombing plans to random phone numbers by accident".
Not only that, but it would fall apart like a house of cards the moment any competent defense is given the smallest leeway in discovery.
I know this is a tangent, but it triggered me hard: The GOP complains how the government is incompetant and ruining America because of Democrats, independent girls and nastly evil gays.....
Exemplary
it's that the US government is quite incompetent.
I know this is a tangent, but it triggered me hard: The GOP complains how the government is incompetant and ruining America because of Democrats, independent girls and nastly evil gays..
Completely ignoring that they have had control of at least one branch of government for all but 4 years over the last 40 years. 24 of those years they had control of 2. 6 years of total control over all three.
The most interesting thing is that the Democratic party had control of at least 2 from approximately the Great Depression until Reagan. That occured because the Republicans had complete control during the roaring 20's.
The dot-com bubble burst after 8 years of Republican control of congress during the Clinton years.
2008 crash occured after 8 years of W Bush. This was the event that tore the country apart. Republicans fostered the environment to cause it, and Democrats opted to aid the people that caused it more than the people harmed by it. We wonder why Millenials have taken a hard left bent relative to their predecessors, this was the reason. Republicans could always push forward their agenda with the slimmest margins of control, but Demcrats were (for some strange reason) powerless to stop it unless they had a filibuster-proof supermajority.
And now we're beginning to see the full consequences of the Trump years. This is going to make the Great Depression look like a party.
Why do I say that? Because since 2008, there have been two economies: the economy of asset holders and the economy of laborers. And more often than not, especially beginning with Trump, those two economies did not match. All of the metrics look good to the asset class, which is why the markets have been holding, But it feels bad to the laboring class because life is harder than ever despite 'the economy being good.'
We're entering Great Depression 2.0. Just with more propaganda, surviellance, and fascism.
What confuses me the most is that, even if you're a low-tier asset holder with a solid 401k, savings, investments, and a home, it does not benefit you to squeeze the working class! You still...
What confuses me the most is that, even if you're a low-tier asset holder with a solid 401k, savings, investments, and a home, it does not benefit you to squeeze the working class! You still likely send your kids to public school. You still drive your own car on public roads. When your pipes start leaking or your furnace breaks, you call up a working class person to fix them. In what world have the rich deluded themselves into thinking that we can rub the faces of 80% of society in the dirt for years, and not wind up with immense sociopolitical dysfunction?
There was a webcomic I found, that I can't find again, goes something like this: A billionaire is shouting from his bunker at a rebel mob 'hahaha you'll never get me now, I'll live here until your...
There was a webcomic I found, that I can't find again, goes something like this:
A billionaire is shouting from his bunker at a rebel mob 'hahaha you'll never get me now, I'll live here until your little rebellion fails.' Rebels place chair on bunker door to prevent it from opening and go away.
I think about that a lot. Can we trick the billionaires to go to their luxury doomsday bunkers and then never come out?
In this world, the rich has always been able to delude the masses into thinking that the rich can rub the faces of 90% of society in the dirt for perpetuity, and not wind up with immense...
In this world, the rich has always been able to delude the masses into thinking that the rich can rub the faces of 90% of society in the dirt for perpetuity, and not wind up with immense sociopolitical dysfunction, because the rich are intelligent / rational / wise / virtuous and whatever goods things they in fact hoard are stolen by "the outsiders".
For folks who love to side with power, when things don't work out for them, it's too dangerous to reconsider if maybe siding with abusive power has been wrong. It's easier to stop all of that doubt and just focus on hurting the outsiders. Surely the virtuous Rich and Powerful would have loved to share, but they can't because the wealth is stolen by them.
I have no opinion on the specific conspiracy here, but I'd push back on the idea that the US government can't pull off a conspiracy. Firstly, the US federal government isn't actually a single...
I have no opinion on the specific conspiracy here, but I'd push back on the idea that the US government can't pull off a conspiracy. Firstly, the US federal government isn't actually a single entity, its a loosely connected collection of agencies and bureaus. Some of those agencies are extremely competent and have run long running conspiracies with no significant repercussions. See the CIA's drug running, the FBI's assisted assassinations and the NSA's many surveillance operations. Secondly, I doubt it would be anyone public facing actually doing the work of it. The chucklefucks only need to ask to be rid of some troublesome dissident.
In terms of incompetence and Occam's Razor, it's not conspiracy at all to say they didn't orchestrate it but picked up the first guy that "looked right", stuck a gun in his bag (according to...
In terms of incompetence and Occam's Razor, it's not conspiracy at all to say they didn't orchestrate it but picked up the first guy that "looked right", stuck a gun in his bag (according to reports), and tried to nail him for it. It's the very definition of incompetence.
Not saying either way whether he's guilty, I have no idea, just saying it's kind of on par.
If that were what they did, the person would be screaming bloody murder the entire time about how it's not them, their defense lawyers would subpoena their cell carrier for the cell tower records...
If that were what they did, the person would be screaming bloody murder the entire time about how it's not them, their defense lawyers would subpoena their cell carrier for the cell tower records for their phone during discovery giving them an ironclad alibi during the murder, and the judge would dismiss the case.
For this to be possible, you necessarily need a widespread conspiracy. The prosecutors and police have to be in on it. The defendant themselves probably needs to be in on it, or maybe they're just very mentally ill. The defendant's defense attorneys, whom they hired, need to be in on it. Any of the defendants friends and family who could provide an alibi would need to not exist.
Who is the "they?" He's being charged in New York state court. The judge was appointed by Biden. Mangione was arrested by a group of local police, not some secret group of FBI paramilitaries that...
they'd try him...
Who is the "they?" He's being charged in New York state court. The judge was appointed by Biden. Mangione was arrested by a group of local police, not some secret group of FBI paramilitaries that flew in.
I saw in your other comment that you say a small group could've easily handled this sort of conspiracy. How? How is a small group going to orchestrate the arrest, the fabricating evidence, the trial, the appeals?
In the leanest possible version of your conspiracy, it involves dozens of people, most of whom have no connection with the federal government or each other, and would require the conspirators to fake enough evidence to convincingly hold up in what is sure to be a well-publicized trial.
Respectfully, I don't think that the disclaimer "I know this is conspiracy, but [conspiracy]" is enough to justify casting doubts on the morality and independence of the entire justice system like this. It's not responsible to casually (with no proof) spread claims that it's so easy for shadowy actors in the government to just create a fall guy and get him legally executed -- it's exactly the sort of deep-state / "drain the swamp" thinking that led directly to Trump.
He has three cases against him, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Mangione, New York People v. Mangione, United States v. Mangione. He's in NY for both the NY and Federal cases. There are a lot of...
Who is the "they?" He's being charged in New York state court.
He has three cases against him, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Mangione, New York People v. Mangione, United States v. Mangione.
He's in NY for both the NY and Federal cases. There are a lot of "theys".
This premise is reminiscent of the plot of Fahrenheit 451 wherein the protagonist escapes a manhunt, yet the authorities 'find' him and capture him for display to the public - but he's actually a...
This premise is reminiscent of the plot of Fahrenheit 451 wherein the protagonist escapes a manhunt, yet the authorities 'find' him and capture him for display to the public - but he's actually a patsy, a fake to show the public that the authorities are competent and in control.
In their filing, Mangione’s lawyers also urged U.S. District Judge Margaret Garnett to throw out evidence from a backpack seized during his arrest, arguing officers searched his bag without obtaining a warrant. Police questioned Mangione for more than 20 minutes before reading him his rights and blocked him from leaving the McDonald’s even though they initially told him he wasn’t under arrest, according to the filing.
It was almost funny how obviously different this whole situation was treated by the money class. Rich guy gets gunned down in the street of NYC and they launched a multi-state manhunt for him with...
It was almost funny how obviously different this whole situation was treated by the money class. Rich guy gets gunned down in the street of NYC and they launched a multi-state manhunt for him with APBs everywhere, governor stops at nothing to make sure they catch the guy who did it. Meanwhile poor folks get gunned down every single day in the very same city and I don't even think it makes the local news.
Why did the George Floyd case get so much more attention than other murder cases? Because of politics. Same here. Everybody was talking about this case because it was so political. If it were an...
Why did the George Floyd case get so much more attention than other murder cases? Because of politics. Same here. Everybody was talking about this case because it was so political.
If it were an ordinary murder case, it wouldn't have blown up on social media. There wouldn't be people rooting for the murderer, either.
High profile political cases get more attention from the public and there's more pressure on the police to do something about them.
Luigi Mangione himself is also rich, old money. Not quite a billionaire but probably worth tens of millions still, possibly a hundred, and earned almost none of it himself. Probably wealthier than...
Luigi Mangione himself is also rich, old money. Not quite a billionaire but probably worth tens of millions still, possibly a hundred, and earned almost none of it himself. Probably wealthier than the guy he murdered.
It's weird that the left (apparently) thinks of him as their hero. Or perhaps this is another destabilizing attempt against the west?
Wow really? I had no idea he was worth that much. I knew he wasn't lower class (preppy white kid from the north east, ivy league) but I had no idea he was a 10-100 millionaire.
Wow really? I had no idea he was worth that much. I knew he wasn't lower class (preppy white kid from the north east, ivy league) but I had no idea he was a 10-100 millionaire.
Also his cousin is a MAGA Republican representing Baltimore County in the MD House of Delegates. Their grandfather owned a radio station and country clubs. Moderate money family for sure.
Also his cousin is a MAGA Republican representing Baltimore County in the MD House of Delegates. Their grandfather owned a radio station and country clubs. Moderate money family for sure.
I've been wondering too. It was marked as noise pretty much right after the link was posted and when it was the only comment. Is there a way to unmark noise?
I've been wondering too. It was marked as noise pretty much right after the link was posted and when it was the only comment. Is there a way to unmark noise?
If he's not, he has the world's worst defense lawyers.
Feel like if I was being framed for murder and shouting in front of the press my message would be something along the lines of "holy fuck I didn't do it help", not claiming something was an insult to the intelligence of the American people
If that were the case, the defense would go very differently. Instead of... whatever is occuring now, the "fake" Mangione would do that would be the best results for feds: he would plead guilty, make a statement about how he did what he did in a moment of weakness/anger/whatever, the defense would pull out some witnesses that provide his character and some psychiatric evaluations, plead for forgiveness, they'd give him some time behind bars, the end.
This happens to also be a very rational defense in this case.
I’ll be frank, given the past decade, I no longer find any sort of conspiracy fun.
That seems like an an even more outlandish conspiracy.
Why would anyone ever agree to that?
People agree to be executed or go to jail for life in the US for money?
Where?
Haha. I'm imagining some dude going "now I'm rich!" as the cell door closes and his life sentence begins. "...wait... shit."
He's federally charged with murder. He very well could be. That's what the whole article is about.
I don't think it really passes occam's razor. If there's anything the last year has shown, it's that the US government is quite incompetent.
The level of coordination required between all parties to be able to do this conspiracy seems pretty beyond the level of "people who send US bombing plans to random phone numbers by accident".
Not only that, but it would fall apart like a house of cards the moment any competent defense is given the smallest leeway in discovery.
I know this is a tangent, but it triggered me hard: The GOP complains how the government is incompetant and ruining America because of Democrats, independent girls and nastly evil gays..
Completely ignoring that they have had control of at least one branch of government for all but 4 years over the last 40 years. 24 of those years they had control of 2. 6 years of total control over all three.
The most interesting thing is that the Democratic party had control of at least 2 from approximately the Great Depression until Reagan. That occured because the Republicans had complete control during the roaring 20's.
The dot-com bubble burst after 8 years of Republican control of congress during the Clinton years.
2008 crash occured after 8 years of W Bush. This was the event that tore the country apart. Republicans fostered the environment to cause it, and Democrats opted to aid the people that caused it more than the people harmed by it. We wonder why Millenials have taken a hard left bent relative to their predecessors, this was the reason. Republicans could always push forward their agenda with the slimmest margins of control, but Demcrats were (for some strange reason) powerless to stop it unless they had a filibuster-proof supermajority.
And now we're beginning to see the full consequences of the Trump years. This is going to make the Great Depression look like a party.
Why do I say that? Because since 2008, there have been two economies: the economy of asset holders and the economy of laborers. And more often than not, especially beginning with Trump, those two economies did not match. All of the metrics look good to the asset class, which is why the markets have been holding, But it feels bad to the laboring class because life is harder than ever despite 'the economy being good.'
We're entering Great Depression 2.0. Just with more propaganda, surviellance, and fascism.
What confuses me the most is that, even if you're a low-tier asset holder with a solid 401k, savings, investments, and a home, it does not benefit you to squeeze the working class! You still likely send your kids to public school. You still drive your own car on public roads. When your pipes start leaking or your furnace breaks, you call up a working class person to fix them. In what world have the rich deluded themselves into thinking that we can rub the faces of 80% of society in the dirt for years, and not wind up with immense sociopolitical dysfunction?
There was a webcomic I found, that I can't find again, goes something like this:
A billionaire is shouting from his bunker at a rebel mob 'hahaha you'll never get me now, I'll live here until your little rebellion fails.' Rebels place chair on bunker door to prevent it from opening and go away.
I think about that a lot. Can we trick the billionaires to go to their luxury doomsday bunkers and then never come out?
In this world, the rich has always been able to delude the masses into thinking that the rich can rub the faces of 90% of society in the dirt for perpetuity, and not wind up with immense sociopolitical dysfunction, because the rich are intelligent / rational / wise / virtuous and whatever goods things they in fact hoard are stolen by "the outsiders".
For folks who love to side with power, when things don't work out for them, it's too dangerous to reconsider if maybe siding with abusive power has been wrong. It's easier to stop all of that doubt and just focus on hurting the outsiders. Surely the virtuous Rich and Powerful would have loved to share, but they can't because the wealth is stolen by them.
I have no opinion on the specific conspiracy here, but I'd push back on the idea that the US government can't pull off a conspiracy. Firstly, the US federal government isn't actually a single entity, its a loosely connected collection of agencies and bureaus. Some of those agencies are extremely competent and have run long running conspiracies with no significant repercussions. See the CIA's drug running, the FBI's assisted assassinations and the NSA's many surveillance operations. Secondly, I doubt it would be anyone public facing actually doing the work of it. The chucklefucks only need to ask to be rid of some troublesome dissident.
In terms of incompetence and Occam's Razor, it's not conspiracy at all to say they didn't orchestrate it but picked up the first guy that "looked right", stuck a gun in his bag (according to reports), and tried to nail him for it. It's the very definition of incompetence.
Not saying either way whether he's guilty, I have no idea, just saying it's kind of on par.
If that were what they did, the person would be screaming bloody murder the entire time about how it's not them, their defense lawyers would subpoena their cell carrier for the cell tower records for their phone during discovery giving them an ironclad alibi during the murder, and the judge would dismiss the case.
For this to be possible, you necessarily need a widespread conspiracy. The prosecutors and police have to be in on it. The defendant themselves probably needs to be in on it, or maybe they're just very mentally ill. The defendant's defense attorneys, whom they hired, need to be in on it. Any of the defendants friends and family who could provide an alibi would need to not exist.
So forth and so on.
Who is the "they?" He's being charged in New York state court. The judge was appointed by Biden. Mangione was arrested by a group of local police, not some secret group of FBI paramilitaries that flew in.
I saw in your other comment that you say a small group could've easily handled this sort of conspiracy. How? How is a small group going to orchestrate the arrest, the fabricating evidence, the trial, the appeals?
In the leanest possible version of your conspiracy, it involves dozens of people, most of whom have no connection with the federal government or each other, and would require the conspirators to fake enough evidence to convincingly hold up in what is sure to be a well-publicized trial.
Respectfully, I don't think that the disclaimer "I know this is conspiracy, but [conspiracy]" is enough to justify casting doubts on the morality and independence of the entire justice system like this. It's not responsible to casually (with no proof) spread claims that it's so easy for shadowy actors in the government to just create a fall guy and get him legally executed -- it's exactly the sort of deep-state / "drain the swamp" thinking that led directly to Trump.
He has three cases against him, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Mangione, New York People v. Mangione, United States v. Mangione.
He's in NY for both the NY and Federal cases. There are a lot of "theys".
This makes it much less likely that there's some sort of overarching conspiracy to hang him as a fall guy, no?
I'm not commenting on any conspiracy, just clarifying the options for "they" as your comment seemed to think there was only one, NY State.
This premise is reminiscent of the plot of Fahrenheit 451 wherein the protagonist escapes a manhunt, yet the authorities 'find' him and capture him for display to the public - but he's actually a patsy, a fake to show the public that the authorities are competent and in control.
It was almost funny how obviously different this whole situation was treated by the money class. Rich guy gets gunned down in the street of NYC and they launched a multi-state manhunt for him with APBs everywhere, governor stops at nothing to make sure they catch the guy who did it. Meanwhile poor folks get gunned down every single day in the very same city and I don't even think it makes the local news.
Why did the George Floyd case get so much more attention than other murder cases? Because of politics. Same here. Everybody was talking about this case because it was so political.
If it were an ordinary murder case, it wouldn't have blown up on social media. There wouldn't be people rooting for the murderer, either.
High profile political cases get more attention from the public and there's more pressure on the police to do something about them.
Luigi Mangione himself is also rich, old money. Not quite a billionaire but probably worth tens of millions still, possibly a hundred, and earned almost none of it himself. Probably wealthier than the guy he murdered.
It's weird that the left (apparently) thinks of him as their hero. Or perhaps this is another destabilizing attempt against the west?
Wow really? I had no idea he was worth that much. I knew he wasn't lower class (preppy white kid from the north east, ivy league) but I had no idea he was a 10-100 millionaire.
Also his cousin is a MAGA Republican representing Baltimore County in the MD House of Delegates. Their grandfather owned a radio station and country clubs. Moderate money family for sure.
Uh... Why on earth is an excerpt from the article marked as noise?
I've been wondering too. It was marked as noise pretty much right after the link was posted and when it was the only comment. Is there a way to unmark noise?
I know there’s some folks here who don’t like the excerpts. Maybe it was that?