34 votes

Democratic Debate #1 Thread

welcome to debate #1, night 1. given tildes's small size, i'm not really sure how this will go, so my plan here on paper is to do two threads (one today, one tomorrow) for this set of debates, and then based on how active this set is make a decision on whether or not to consolidate them for the many future debates that will happen. if things go particularly well or poorly tonight though, i might expedite that decision (hence the un-specific title), but we'll see. anyways, here are all the details you'd ever need, and probably then some:

How to Watch:

The debate is being broadcast by NBC News, MSNBC and Telemundo, and will air live across all three networks starting at 9 p.m. ET.
Telemundo will broadcast the debate in Spanish.
The debate will stream online free on NBC News' digital platforms, including NBCNews.com, MSNBC.com, the NBC News Mobile App and OTT apps on Roku, Apple TV and Amazon Fire TV, in addition to Telemundo's digital platforms.

livestreams will also be available on Twitter, Facebook, and Youtube because the DNC mandated that of its partners for the debates.

here is the youtube link.

The Candidates

Democratic Presidential Debate: See The 20 Candidates Who Will Be Onstage

  • Cory Booker (Senator from New Jersey):

Booker is running on an aggressive optimism, promising to bring people together and fight for things like criminal justice overhaul, improved economic opportunity and LGBTQ rights.

  • Julián Castro (Former secretary of housing and urban development):

The former Obama administration housing chief is running on hopeful notes. He promises students being saddled with less debt, veterans being respected, people of color being safe and immigrants being welcome.

  • Bill de Blasio (Mayor of New York City):

Leading the country’s most populous city, de Blasio is running on putting working people first and is touting his record on minimum wage, sick leave, health care and universal pre-K. And he’s running against President Trump’s immigration and climate policies.

  • John Delaney (Former representative from Maryland’s 6th District):

Delaney has campaigned in early states for nearly two years. He takes a pragmatic approach, especially on health care. He has spoken out against “Medicare for All,” a stance that hasn’t sat well with liberal activists.

  • Tulsi Gabbard (Representative from Hawaii’s 2nd District):

The military veteran is running on a platform of “peace,” to end foreign wars and use the money to spend in America.

  • Jay Inslee (Governor of Washington):

His campaign begins and ends with the threat posed by climate change. He argues that the economy and fighting climate change are not incompatible and that a green economy creates jobs.

  • Amy Klobuchar (Senator from Minnesota):

Klobuchar believes in a pragmatism that’s rooted in her senatorial experience and a Midwestern optimism. She believes it’s necessary to reach out to solve problems and bridge divides between rural and urban communities.

  • Beto O’Rourke (Former representative from Texas’ 16th District):

Best known for almost beating Ted Cruz, O’Rourke has a “positive, unifying vision.” He wants to fix American democracy with changes to campaign finance and voting, and to end wars, reduce gun violence, address climate change and guarantee women’s health care.

  • Tim Ryan (Representative from Ohio’s 13th District):

He’s running on “rebuilding the American Dream,” and that means, in his view, blue-collar jobs, public education and health care.

  • Elizabeth Warren (Senator from Massachusetts):

You name it, Warren has a plan for it. She’s not running to create a new system, but she is running on big, structural change, including increased regulation and scrutiny of Wall Street and banking.

The Rules:

Candidates will have 60 seconds to answer questions and 30 seconds to respond to follow-ups. No opening statements, though candidates will have a chance to deliver closing remarks.
Five segments each night separated by four commercial breaks.

The Analysis:

NPR has 5 questions of their 8 for the debates which apply to today's debate:

Does Warren make the most of commanding the stage?
Do the pragmatists or progressives win out?
How much of a focus is Trump?
How will foreign policy factor in?
Who will stick in voters' minds?

other pre-debate analysis pieces that may be pertinent to you:

114 comments

  1. [28]
    vord
    Link
    Warren and Blasio have healthcare spot on.... keeping private insurance continues a system that separates the haves and the have nots. It is a universal right, it should be equal access to...

    Warren and Blasio have healthcare spot on.... keeping private insurance continues a system that separates the haves and the have nots. It is a universal right, it should be equal access to healthcare for everyone....full stop.

    19 votes
    1. [27]
      Nmg
      Link Parent
      I am not sure I agree. I think choice is an important principle and think people should be able to decide what is most important to them. There is a balance between ensuring everyone has...

      I am not sure I agree. I think choice is an important principle and think people should be able to decide what is most important to them. There is a balance between ensuring everyone has sufficient fundamental care and dictating what people should do about their own health, and that is the public option.

      Everyone who otherwise isn't covered is covered, everyone who says "I am an individual person with individual concerns about healthcare and I want individualized coverage that works for me," has that option.

      3 votes
      1. [19]
        smoontjes
        Link Parent
        Why would you ever want that option? The US spends more money on healthcare per person than countries with socialized healthcare.

        Why would you ever want that option? The US spends more money on healthcare per person than countries with socialized healthcare.

        11 votes
        1. [18]
          Nmg
          Link Parent
          Because my employer offers good health insurance? Can you explain the relevance of the second statement to the discussion?

          Because my employer offers good health insurance?

          Can you explain the relevance of the second statement to the discussion?

          2 votes
          1. [8]
            ubergeek
            Link Parent
            I'm going to bet your employer insurance pales in comparison to Tricare. Need to go take kids to the docs? $0 out of pocket. Broken Arm, broken hip, and concussion? $0 out of pocket. Got cancer,...

            I'm going to bet your employer insurance pales in comparison to Tricare.

            Need to go take kids to the docs? $0 out of pocket.

            Broken Arm, broken hip, and concussion? $0 out of pocket.

            Got cancer, and all the treatment with that? $0 out of pocket.

            Compared to "good" health insurance I have from my employer:

            Kids need to go to docs for strep? $50 co-pay.

            Broken arm, hip, and concussion? $350 emergency room co-pay, $75 co-pay for all follow ups (~15 or so).

            Got cancer, and all treatment? I'll tell you when I get done paying all of the bills still coming in... We're in the range of about 45K right now.

            13 votes
            1. [7]
              Nmg
              Link Parent
              Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But why shouldn't I be able to make that choice myself? If the government insurance truly is better, then people will transition to it. If it isn't better for them,...

              Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But why shouldn't I be able to make that choice myself? If the government insurance truly is better, then people will transition to it. If it isn't better for them, then they won't.

              See how choice optimizes the best option for individuals? You don't need to patronize them.

              People who want to have Medicare for all today keep saying "It will be better, it will be better." Is it really so hard to ask for that to be proven before you nuke a huge industry, axe thousands of workers, and fuck up the plan that I already like?

              2 votes
              1. [5]
                ubergeek
                Link Parent
                I don't think anyone actually is suggesting banning private insurance, but rather guaranteeing coverage for everyone. So, you want better insurance? Go buy it. Your always covered at a basic...

                I don't think anyone actually is suggesting banning private insurance, but rather guaranteeing coverage for everyone.

                So, you want better insurance? Go buy it. Your always covered at a basic level.

                The problem with the insurance market today is that it is so tightly coupled to employment.

                9 votes
                1. [2]
                  Nmg
                  Link Parent
                  I agree that there should be some sort of minimum standard of basic care. What that is, I couldn't tell you. And I imagine the standard of what is "basic healthcare" will change over time, too....

                  I agree that there should be some sort of minimum standard of basic care.

                  What that is, I couldn't tell you. And I imagine the standard of what is "basic healthcare" will change over time, too.

                  Honestly, a lot of the really expensive healthcare procedures could be reduced with preventative medicine. Unfortunately, that is in some ways an emerging field. We are still in the mindset in America of "feel bad? Pop a pill!" And the broccoli lobby is a lot smaller than the cattleman's association.

                  1 vote
                  1. ubergeek
                    Link Parent
                    Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And Yes.

                    Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And Yes.

                2. [2]
                  NaraVara
                  Link Parent
                  The Obamacare exchanges made it possible to decouple them, but the premiums without an employer subsidy are unreasonably high for extremely ungenerous plans. It's not a coupling to employment...

                  The problem with the insurance market today is that it is so tightly coupled to employment.

                  The Obamacare exchanges made it possible to decouple them, but the premiums without an employer subsidy are unreasonably high for extremely ungenerous plans. It's not a coupling to employment problem, it's a cost problem. This shit is just too expensive. People who get it through their employment pay the price too, they just pay it in the form of downward pressure on their salaries since their employers are tilting their payroll cost into health benefits instead of wages.

                  People's salaries would creep up to be a higher if employers didn't have to manage all this insurance management overhead as part of their benefits packages, and small businesses would have a much easier time recruiting for talent against big businesses since less-generous benefits are one of their big challenges hiring capable people. Benefits cost overhead and administration, and big businesses can absorb those costs better due to scale.

                  1 vote
                  1. ubergeek
                    Link Parent
                    Agreed. I wish they had built some way into the bill to just let employers not play the "just the basics" game, and say, "We're offering insurance... Via the exchange." So employees would still...

                    Agreed. I wish they had built some way into the bill to just let employers not play the "just the basics" game, and say, "We're offering insurance... Via the exchange." So employees would still get subsidies, employer contribs, and not pay through the nose.

                    In reality, single-payer is the solution. But, we have too many "mah own bootstraps" people to do that.

                    1 vote
              2. NaraVara
                Link Parent
                No it doesn't optimize anything for individuals. Insurance isn't an individual consumer product, it's a mutual aid agreement among a collective of people to pool their risk. If low-risk people...

                If the government insurance truly is better, then people will transition to it. If it isn't better for them, then they won't. See how choice optimizes the best option for individuals?

                No it doesn't optimize anything for individuals. Insurance isn't an individual consumer product, it's a mutual aid agreement among a collective of people to pool their risk.

                If low-risk people leave the pool, it makes it more expensive for the remaining people to remain, which makes the next marginally low risk person leave the pool, and so on. This is called the adverse selection death spiral.

                You get a system that's better optimized for people throughout their lives by putting everyone in the same risk pool.

                3 votes
          2. [8]
            TheJorro
            Link Parent
            What about all those people that don't have your employer's good insurance? Those are people paying through the nose for their healthcare. Apparently it costs around $10k for someone to have a...

            What about all those people that don't have your employer's good insurance? Those are people paying through the nose for their healthcare.

            Apparently it costs around $10k for someone to have a baby in the US? It costs them almost nothing up here in Canada. Imagine all those uninsured people paying $10k each time they have a baby. Just one is more money than Canadians directly spend on childbirth overall (assuming no complications throughout).

            5 votes
            1. [7]
              Nmg
              Link Parent
              I understand completely, but a public option addresses that. Why does the government have to be the arbiter of good ideas for health insurance? If they can really do it cheaper and more efficient...

              I understand completely, but a public option addresses that.

              Why does the government have to be the arbiter of good ideas for health insurance? If they can really do it cheaper and more efficient than the private insurance companies, they will be setting a standard and all the other insurance plans will have to compete as a response.

              And if they can't, people still have more coverage than they have today, and I get to keep my good insurance.

              1 vote
              1. [5]
                TheJorro
                Link Parent
                Universal heallthcare is not the same thing as government being the arbiter of good ideas for health insurance? I'm not sure what that's based on—universal healthcare is not insurance. Private...

                Universal heallthcare is not the same thing as government being the arbiter of good ideas for health insurance? I'm not sure what that's based on—universal healthcare is not insurance. Private health insurance still exists within universal healthcare, I have some through my employer that cover things that the universal healthcare does not.

                Universal healthcare provides a reasonable baseline of healthcare. It is not a whole replacement for all medical costs.

                6 votes
                1. [4]
                  Nmg
                  Link Parent
                  The proposal is Medicare for all. So it seems that we are talking about different things.

                  The proposal is Medicare for all. So it seems that we are talking about different things.

                  1. ubergeek
                    Link Parent
                    Even medicare for all doesn't preclude rider policies.

                    Even medicare for all doesn't preclude rider policies.

                  2. [2]
                    TheJorro
                    Link Parent
                    Looking into it more, it seems we are. But realistically, the claim of "this will remove all private insurance" is a moonshot. It still exists just fine in every other system because (as far as...

                    Looking into it more, it seems we are. But realistically, the claim of "this will remove all private insurance" is a moonshot. It still exists just fine in every other system because (as far as I'm aware) no government has been able to cover as many healthcare situations as what Medicare For All is proposing.

                    1. Nmg
                      Link Parent
                      Regardless, I feel like America should approach this problem incrementally. Move slowly. If things work, keep pushing. If they don't, take a step back and fix it.

                      Regardless, I feel like America should approach this problem incrementally. Move slowly. If things work, keep pushing. If they don't, take a step back and fix it.

              2. stu2b50
                Link Parent
                The thing is, the elimination of private healthcare will decrease the price of public healthcare. You need pool wealthier, healthy people with low risk alongside lower income and/or people with...

                The thing is, the elimination of private healthcare will decrease the price of public healthcare. You need pool wealthier, healthy people with low risk alongside lower income and/or people with preexisting conditions so that the latter's prices will go down comparatively.

                That was the reason Obamacare had the individual mandate.

                Personally, I don't think public only would be very popular in the general election, but there ARE reasons people push for it.

                1 vote
          3. smoontjes
            Link Parent
            Then what happens if you become unemployed? The relevance of the second statement is that it would be way cheaper overall to fund it through taxes than fund it the way it's done now, with each and...

            Then what happens if you become unemployed?

            The relevance of the second statement is that it would be way cheaper overall to fund it through taxes than fund it the way it's done now, with each and every person paying for their individual insurance. Access to healthcare should be a right, in my opinion - everyone here in Denmark has that (except dentists when you're over 18, and also psychologists which the new government wants to make free for anyone under 24)

      2. vord
        Link Parent
        That's the whole point of universal healthcare though, to insure everyone has access to the same, high-quality care regardless of their employment status or wealth. To fund universal healthcare,...

        That's the whole point of universal healthcare though, to insure everyone has access to the same, high-quality care regardless of their employment status or wealth.

        To fund universal healthcare, taxes will need to go up to pay for it. It will most likely be less in taxes than you're paying for your employer-provided healthcare.

        I have great (by US standards) healthcare. I pay through the nose for it. I would give it up in a heartbeat for proper universal care, because so many other societal issues are caused by lack of mental and physical healthcare.

        6 votes
      3. [6]
        BuckeyeSundae
        Link Parent
        Yeah I think a lot of the anxiety people generally feel about healthcare comes down to how to transition from whatever we got now to whatever a "new" system might be, and I would bet cash that the...

        Yeah I think a lot of the anxiety people generally feel about healthcare comes down to how to transition from whatever we got now to whatever a "new" system might be, and I would bet cash that the lion's share of moderates on this issue don't trust that the government would transition effectively enough that they wouldn't be at major risk at a substantial reduction in healthcare coverage quality.

        This is one of the benefits we tried to point to when it came to the ACA, but moderate people's anxiety levels were generally too high to hear it until we voted a Republican into office who wanted to dismantle it. Edit: And Obama saying that everyone could keep their health insurance if they liked it didn't exactly help democratic credibility on the issue.

        1 vote
        1. [5]
          ubergeek
          Link Parent
          Everybody could keep their policy, if they chose, as long as it met the basic minimums to be called "health insurance", whose requirements were minimal, at best.

          And Obama saying that everyone could keep their health insurance if they liked it didn't exactly help democratic credibility on the issue.

          Everybody could keep their policy, if they chose, as long as it met the basic minimums to be called "health insurance", whose requirements were minimal, at best.

          1. [4]
            BuckeyeSundae
            Link Parent
            No, he even admitted he exaggerated this point.
            1. [3]
              ubergeek
              Link Parent
              Except, you could keep your insurance, if you were the one who picked out your insurance. Your employer could have kept the same plan, but they also could have changed it. ie, at the time, I had...

              Except, you could keep your insurance, if you were the one who picked out your insurance.

              Your employer could have kept the same plan, but they also could have changed it.

              ie, at the time, I had no change in my health insurance. Even went down by ~$100/month. My employer chose to maintain their group plan.

              Your insurer also had the option of keeping the plan in place, or cancelling it.

              YOU always had the choice you had before, however. People just didn't realize how dependent they are on the choices of OTHERS for their insurance.

              1. [2]
                BuckeyeSundae
                Link Parent
                You're not even gonna give an inch on what was clearly, and widely accepted by all the participating parties to be, an exaggerated claim? I am not here to litigate what was and wasn't possible...

                You're not even gonna give an inch on what was clearly, and widely accepted by all the participating parties to be, an exaggerated claim? I am not here to litigate what was and wasn't possible when it came to keeping a healthcare plan or not being able to. It was an obviously exaggerated claim that Obama himself admitted was exaggerated and that meaningfully impacted how trustworthy Obama was seen to be as a messenger when it came to the ACA (by 15 points, if you didn't read the link).

                So I don't know what you're trying to do here, but you're not exactly making a good case for why Obama saying that helped alleviate moderate voters' concerns. Since, you know, it was an exaggeration and was reported and admitted to be one.

                1. ubergeek
                  Link Parent
                  No, I'm not. Because, it's not really an exaggerated claim. People who CHOOSE their insurance ALL BY THEMSELVES could keep their plan. For better or worse, most people in the US don't choose their...

                  No, I'm not. Because, it's not really an exaggerated claim.

                  People who CHOOSE their insurance ALL BY THEMSELVES could keep their plan. For better or worse, most people in the US don't choose their plans... Their employers do. Their employers could have chosen to keep the same plan, they chose not to.

  2. [4]
    vord
    Link
    Pro-tip democrats: Stop talking about Trump, mentioning his name gives him power.

    Pro-tip democrats: Stop talking about Trump, mentioning his name gives him power.

    13 votes
    1. [3]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      seems like most of them have heard you. 538 is tracking trump mentions and they're at: Jay Inslee3 Amy Klobuchar2 Cory Booker2 Tulsi Gabbard2 Julián Castro1 Bill de Blasio0 John Delaney0 Beto...

      seems like most of them have heard you. 538 is tracking trump mentions and they're at:
      Jay Inslee 3
      Amy Klobuchar 2
      Cory Booker 2
      Tulsi Gabbard 2
      Julián Castro 1
      Bill de Blasio 0
      John Delaney 0
      Beto O’Rourke 0
      Tim Ryan 0
      Elizabeth Warren 0

      17 votes
      1. [2]
        Omnicrola
        Link Parent
        That's impressively low actually, good for them.

        That's impressively low actually, good for them.

        1. alyaza
          Link Parent
          i neglected to update it last night, but i think the final total mentions of trump was around 20 on the night? so more than that, but still pretty low when you consider it was a 2 hour debate and...

          i neglected to update it last night, but i think the final total mentions of trump was around 20 on the night? so more than that, but still pretty low when you consider it was a 2 hour debate and trump looms extremely large over a lot of the issues that were discussed.

          2 votes
  3. alyaza
    Link
    impressed so far about how much policy discussion there's been, even though it's been obviously watered down and condensed to hit the 60 second time limit. they're even focusing on and leveraging...

    impressed so far about how much policy discussion there's been, even though it's been obviously watered down and condensed to hit the 60 second time limit. they're even focusing on and leveraging some of their differences, which was not something a lot of the punditry really expected!

    13 votes
  4. [12]
    RapidEyeMovement
    Link
    Warren won this debate for me, Tulsi was flatter then I hoped, Booker did well, but was also given A LOT if time. Felt Castro was strong, Beto was given a lot of time but didn't feel as strong....

    Warren won this debate for me, Tulsi was flatter then I hoped, Booker did well, but was also given A LOT if time.

    Felt Castro was strong, Beto was given a lot of time but didn't feel as strong.

    Everyone else felt flat

    10 votes
    1. [6]
      monarda
      Link Parent
      Castro did it for me, and I didn't know who he was prior to watching. Edit: I'll probably re-watch it.

      Castro did it for me, and I didn't know who he was prior to watching.

      Edit: I'll probably re-watch it.

      7 votes
      1. [5]
        RapidEyeMovement
        Link Parent
        Castro came out swinging, I like that about him. I felt like Warren was ignored the second half of the debate by the panel. I am worried about her being to polite.

        Castro came out swinging, I like that about him.

        I felt like Warren was ignored the second half of the debate by the panel. I am worried about her being to polite.

        7 votes
        1. alyaza
          Link Parent
          well, she got a ton of speaking time early (and even across the board she talked second or third most of the ten up there), which probably contributed to why she was nearly silent for the second...

          well, she got a ton of speaking time early (and even across the board she talked second or third most of the ten up there), which probably contributed to why she was nearly silent for the second half of the debate.

          3 votes
        2. [2]
          monarda
          Link Parent
          I felt the same politeness thing from Inslee. Personally, I am not a Warren fan, and I cannot pinpoint why.

          I felt the same politeness thing from Inslee.

          Personally, I am not a Warren fan, and I cannot pinpoint why.

          2 votes
          1. RapidEyeMovement
            Link Parent
            Warren came in with a lot of momentum, so no candidate wanted to challenge her.

            Warren came in with a lot of momentum, so no candidate wanted to challenge her.

            3 votes
        3. moriarty
          Link Parent
          Totally agree with you, she was a little too polite. I think Booker came out assertive and in command and it played well for him. Warren was great when she spoke, straight and to the point (except...

          Totally agree with you, she was a little too polite. I think Booker came out assertive and in command and it played well for him. Warren was great when she spoke, straight and to the point (except her closing speech that was a little too sacchariney), but she didn't get all that much time

          2 votes
    2. [2]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      gotta go warren > castro = de blasio > booker > everybody else > beto > gabbard, personally. warren was basically untouchable, and it really fucking showed because nobody attacked her or even...

      gotta go warren > castro = de blasio > booker > everybody else > beto > gabbard, personally.

      warren was basically untouchable, and it really fucking showed because nobody attacked her or even really engaged with her; she didn't really bomb any question either, although she could have done better on the gun question. castro and de blasio both came off as punching well above their weight class. booker wasn't the best, but he held his own to me. everybody i didn't bother to name is kinda bleh and neither over nor underperformed.

      beto and gabbard were the clear losers to me. beto got kinda bodied on healthcare by de blasio and delaney, then he got into an exchange he lost with castro on an issue castro is knowledgeable about; he also didn't really have any standout answers. gabbard honestly just sucked across the board beyond the healthcare question.

      7 votes
      1. NaraVara
        Link Parent
        I'd put Gabbard over Tim Ryan, but only because I think Gabbard in office would be a weird wild-card while Ryan would be guaranteed to be dumb.

        I'd put Gabbard over Tim Ryan, but only because I think Gabbard in office would be a weird wild-card while Ryan would be guaranteed to be dumb.

        1 vote
    3. [3]
      dubteedub
      Link Parent
      Can I ask what you were looking for in Tulsi Gabbard? She comes off to me as more of a (wittingly or not) Russian shill candidate on par with Jill Stein from 2016. She seems designed to appeal to...

      Tulsi was flatter then I hoped

      Can I ask what you were looking for in Tulsi Gabbard?

      She comes off to me as more of a (wittingly or not) Russian shill candidate on par with Jill Stein from 2016. She seems designed to appeal to siphon off progressive voters who are unaware of her history of homophobia, islamophobia, and Hindu Nationalism.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        Icarus
        Link Parent
        If you were a voter who had never heard of Tulsi Gabbard but this debate was the first introduction to her, what exactly did she do/say in this context that made her come off as a Russian shill...

        She comes off to me as more of a (wittingly or not) Russian shill candidate on par with Jill Stein from 2016.

        If you were a voter who had never heard of Tulsi Gabbard but this debate was the first introduction to her, what exactly did she do/say in this context that made her come off as a Russian shill candidate?

        3 votes
        1. dubteedub
          Link Parent
          Well my issue is that I am well aware of her and her positions, so I am not basing my judgement of her on just last night's debate, but for all of her hugely problematic issues in her past. As for...

          Well my issue is that I am well aware of her and her positions, so I am not basing my judgement of her on just last night's debate, but for all of her hugely problematic issues in her past.

          As for why I think she is essentially a fake / shill candidate, it is largely her connections to Russia, Bashar Assad, islamophobia, and courting of the far-right in the United States.

          Many of them are outlined in this Vanity Fair piece.

          Here is more detail on how her campaign is being supported by Russian propaganda efforts, just like Trump's, Stein's, and Sanders' were in 2016.

          Descriptions of her support by Bashar Asad.

          Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, an Iraq War veteran, chides President Obama and Hillary Clinton for hesitancy to use the term 'radical Islamic terror' for fear of conflating jihadists with other Muslims. Gabbard said this is why it's important to make the distinction-- "we need to be able to identify in order to defeat this threat."

          It should be immediately clear how using Trump's favorite phrase of "radical islamic terrorism" is an Islamophobic dog whistlebull horn.

          On not endorsing Clinton in 2016, she again defends the Asad regime.

          "There are a lot of things I'm looking at," Gabbard explained her decision. "In particular, this issue that she has not moved on at all in the campaign, which is the commitment to continue this interventionist regime change policy in Syria that is proving disastrous."

          She met with Donald Trump in 2016 in Trump tower when she was rumored to be considered for an administration position. The meeting was brokered by Steve Bannon who supports her islamophobic foreign policy stances.

          It’s not just the Hindu right who love Gabbard. America’s resurgent hard and far right agrees, not least because she was an outspoken critic of the Obama administration’s alleged reluctance to recognize that "Islamic extremists are our enemy."

          Steve Bannon "loves Tulsi Gabbard." He thinks she "gets the foreign policy stuff, the Islamic terrorism stuff." Tucker Carlson loves her Assad-as-genocidaire skepticism, David Duke loves how she’s realigning U.S. politics, and Richard Spencer lauds her "bravery" in the diplomatic field.

          Infamous KKK grand wizard David Duke endorsed her run for President.

          If white nationalists like Steve Bannon, David Duke, and Richard Spencer are supporting your views on Islam, I would say that should be loud and clear why those views should be looked at critically.

          3 votes
  5. [2]
    spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Inslee taking a lot of credit for things the state legislature did here in WA that he signed.

    Inslee taking a lot of credit for things the state legislature did here in WA that he signed.

    9 votes
    1. Omnicrola
      Link Parent
      I'm not from Washington, and to me he sounded really condescending every time he mentioned stuff like that but I couldn't figure out why. I think you got it though, it's because he didn't. He...

      I'm not from Washington, and to me he sounded really condescending every time he mentioned stuff like that but I couldn't figure out why. I think you got it though, it's because he didn't. He certainly helped/enabled, but it was the state congress that was a huge part of it.

      I'm not looking for superhero candidates who claim they can fix everything themselves, that's fantasy. I want candidates who have humility, ask for help, and can work with people who are hard to work with.

      1 vote
  6. spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Delaney with the /r/enlightenedcentrism take about how we need to pass bipartisan bills and also pass universal healthcare.

    Delaney with the /r/enlightenedcentrism take about how we need to pass bipartisan bills and also pass universal healthcare.

    8 votes
  7. spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Some gold from Nate Silver on the 538 liveblog:

    Some gold from Nate Silver on the 538 liveblog:

    de Blasio is totally one of those guys that talks to you on the elevator.

    5 votes
  8. [4]
    spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Serious facepalm from Booker not wanting to get back into the Iran deal, just offering some vague Trump-esque "I could get a better deal". The reason the original Iran deal succeeded is that it...

    Serious facepalm from Booker not wanting to get back into the Iran deal, just offering some vague Trump-esque "I could get a better deal". The reason the original Iran deal succeeded is that it was multi-lateral. Renegotiating it can't be done unilaterally.

    Want to renegotiate the Iran deal? Much harder than it looks

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      brotherhood4232
      Link Parent
      He just wanted to talk more.

      He just wanted to talk more.

      3 votes
      1. RapidEyeMovement
        Link Parent
        This is about face time, u at least remembered that, cannot say that about the rest of them

        This is about face time, u at least remembered that, cannot say that about the rest of them

    2. alyaza
      Link Parent
      i have no idea what he was thinking with that one, tbh. i think he was the only one that didn't raise his hand at the question, and the fact that he bombed it isn't a great look even if it has no...

      i have no idea what he was thinking with that one, tbh. i think he was the only one that didn't raise his hand at the question, and the fact that he bombed it isn't a great look even if it has no staying power.

      3 votes
  9. [3]
    monarda
    Link
    I expected more from Inslee on climate change considering that's his platform.

    I expected more from Inslee on climate change considering that's his platform.

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      probably the crunch of the 60 seconds there, honestly. his plan is pretty sweeping, and there's only so much you can say in a minute short of literally listing things off, which isn't the best way...

      probably the crunch of the 60 seconds there, honestly. his plan is pretty sweeping, and there's only so much you can say in a minute short of literally listing things off, which isn't the best way to appeal to voters i'm guessing.

      3 votes
      1. monarda
        Link Parent
        I would think that by now he would have his 60 second sound bites. On the other hand he has never done well in debates.

        I would think that by now he would have his 60 second sound bites. On the other hand he has never done well in debates.

        2 votes
  10. [4]
    alyaza
    Link
    tim ryan just committed what's probably the first genuine gaffe of this debate by saying that the taliban did 9/11 in an exchange with gabbard: Gabbard: I was in the military. Ryan: I was in the...

    tim ryan just committed what's probably the first genuine gaffe of this debate by saying that the taliban did 9/11 in an exchange with gabbard:

    Gabbard: I was in the military.
    Ryan: I was in the military too. We can't let the Taliban grow.
    Gabbard: The Taliban has been there for a long time.
    Ryan: I didn't say squash them!
    Gabbard: They didn't attack on on 9/11. Al Qaeda did.

    5 votes
    1. [3]
      spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      I really liked her rejoinder about Saudi Arabia just after that as well. Similar to Inslee and climate change, I don't really support her and think she has no chance of winning - but I'm glad...

      I really liked her rejoinder about Saudi Arabia just after that as well. Similar to Inslee and climate change, I don't really support her and think she has no chance of winning - but I'm glad she's there to push everyone else in a more anti-war direction.

      3 votes
        1. NaraVara
          Link Parent
          This is some real Bravo reality tv level drama right here. When that exchange happened though I was kind of like “man, you just got owned by Tulsi Gabbard. How must that feel? Embarrassing?”

          This is some real Bravo reality tv level drama right here.

          When that exchange happened though I was kind of like “man, you just got owned by Tulsi Gabbard. How must that feel? Embarrassing?”

          3 votes
  11. alyaza
    Link
    some early observations, with thirty minutes before this starts happening: bill de blasio is a spectacular outlier when it comes to favorability and needs to just drop out, honestly. he's at 1%...

    some early observations, with thirty minutes before this starts happening:

    • bill de blasio is a spectacular outlier when it comes to favorability and needs to just drop out, honestly. he's at 1% and nobody likes him. he has nowhere to go but down, and i genuinely hope he implodes on stage tonight just so he can go back to being mayor and paying attention to his city instead of trying to run on a platform that is interesting to exactly nobody.
    • marianne williamson is really leaning into her new-age guru status tonight, even though she's not up until tomorrow. also my candidate for exploding spectacularly, but i at least think she has potential to climb since she's unorthodox.
    • cory booker apparently just got an issues page, which... like come on now. you should have already had that, lol.
    • fivethirtyeight has a place to measure the impact of these debates, which will be interesting in a few days (or, perhaps, will be very boring).
    4 votes
  12. [8]
    brotherhood4232
    Link
    Honestly, it’s kinda awful so far imo. Too many people. Faces, names, and answers are just blending together for me.

    Honestly, it’s kinda awful so far imo. Too many people. Faces, names, and answers are just blending together for me.

    4 votes
    1. [4]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      This is Elizabeth Warren vs. a bunch of chump blockers. Half of them can’t even tie their canned speeches to the questions they’ve been asked. Also all these people struggling to demonstrate their...

      This is Elizabeth Warren vs. a bunch of chump blockers.

      Half of them can’t even tie their canned speeches to the questions they’ve been asked.

      Also all these people struggling to demonstrate their Spanish fluency. It would be nice if it wasn’t so transparently pandering. What do they expect non-Spanish speakers to do?

      15 votes
      1. moriarty
        Link Parent
        I know! It felt pretty forced and embarrassing.

        I know! It felt pretty forced and embarrassing.

        1 vote
      2. [2]
        Chopincakes
        Link Parent
        Thank you for using the term "chump blockers" outside of MTG and other similar games. That's exactly what they were.

        Thank you for using the term "chump blockers" outside of MTG and other similar games. That's exactly what they were.

        1 vote
        1. NaraVara
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Medicare for All (While this creature is in play, any damage dealt to creatures you control is reduced to 0). When Elizabeth Warren attacks, all candidates who can block Elizabeth Warren must...

          Medicare for All (While this creature is in play, any damage dealt to creatures you control is reduced to 0).

          When Elizabeth Warren attacks, all candidates who can block Elizabeth Warren must block Elizabeth Warren.

          3 votes
    2. [3]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      yeah. i can't tell the difference between half these god damn people, and i pay attention to politics way more than i should! they should probably get a chyron for who's speaking instead of just...

      yeah. i can't tell the difference between half these god damn people, and i pay attention to politics way more than i should! they should probably get a chyron for who's speaking instead of just relying on naming and podium position.

      4 votes
      1. [2]
        monarda
        Link Parent
        I'm not sure why they don't keep their name up the entire time they are talking.

        I'm not sure why they don't keep their name up the entire time they are talking.

        2 votes
        1. alyaza
          Link Parent
          hopefully, they will learn from this and either do that tomorrow or next month, because yeesh things get hard to follow otherwise.

          hopefully, they will learn from this and either do that tomorrow or next month, because yeesh things get hard to follow otherwise.

          3 votes
  13. [8]
    vord
    Link
    Drinking game rules: Every time they don't answer the question they were asked.

    Drinking game rules:

    Every time they don't answer the question they were asked.

    7 votes
    1. [6]
      spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      Tulsi so far is the winner of the question-dodge-o-meter after she got asked about pay equity for women and talking purely about her military record and anti-war-ness.

      Tulsi so far is the winner of the question-dodge-o-meter after she got asked about pay equity for women and talking purely about her military record and anti-war-ness.

      7 votes
      1. NaraVara
        Link Parent
        Halfway through her answer my friend said “m’am this is a Starbucks” and it might be the most appropriate use of that meme ever.

        Halfway through her answer my friend said “m’am this is a Starbucks” and it might be the most appropriate use of that meme ever.

        5 votes
      2. brotherhood4232
        Link Parent
        Oh god. I thought I must have misheard the question. She reallllllly didn’t answer.

        Oh god. I thought I must have misheard the question. She reallllllly didn’t answer.

        2 votes
      3. alyaza
        Link Parent
        i assume she was setting up who she is more than genuinely dodging the question, since she has super low name recognition. she answered the healthcare question just now pretty well.

        i assume she was setting up who she is more than genuinely dodging the question, since she has super low name recognition. she answered the healthcare question just now pretty well.

        1 vote
      4. [2]
        RapidEyeMovement
        Link Parent
        It was a really a horrible question for her, so I think she just said fuck it, this what will get my name out there better then that question What is she gonna say that will distinguish her from...

        It was a really a horrible question for her, so I think she just said fuck it, this what will get my name out there better then that question

        What is she gonna say that will distinguish her from the rest of the candidates.

        1 vote
        1. alyaza
          Link Parent
          so far, the answer seems to be nothing. on my scorecard so far, she's definitely my worst performer because she's really only had one good response and kinda bombed the rest while not coming off...

          so far, the answer seems to be nothing. on my scorecard so far, she's definitely my worst performer because she's really only had one good response and kinda bombed the rest while not coming off as particularly distinctive.

          2 votes
    2. alyaza
      Link Parent
      god, you're gonna fucking die if you do that, lol. you'd already have to take one, maybe two shots just because of beto's first question there (and we're only 10 minutes in) where he didn't really...

      god, you're gonna fucking die if you do that, lol. you'd already have to take one, maybe two shots just because of beto's first question there (and we're only 10 minutes in) where he didn't really answer the question directly and also half-answered the follow up.

      3 votes
  14. [7]
    alyaza
    Link
    fivethirtyeight's got a words spoken counter so far through the first quarter of an hour (in response to questions only, i think). if it seems like warren is getting lots of time to speak and...

    fivethirtyeight's got a words spoken counter so far through the first quarter of an hour (in response to questions only, i think). if it seems like warren is getting lots of time to speak and speaking lots, it's because she is:

    Elizabeth Warren 408
    Cory Booker 323
    John Delaney 230
    Tim Ryan 207
    Beto O’Rourke 202
    Amy Klobuchar 197
    Tulsi Gabbard 188
    Jay Inslee 180
    Julián Castro 173
    Bill de Blasio 0

    3 votes
    1. [2]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      fifty minutes in, o'rourke passed warren: Beto O’Rourke1041 Elizabeth Warren986 Cory Booker917 Julián Castro833 Amy Klobuchar733 Bill de Blasio527 John Delaney464 Tulsi Gabbard362 Jay Inslee272...

      fifty minutes in, o'rourke passed warren:

      Beto O’Rourke 1041
      Elizabeth Warren 986
      Cory Booker 917
      Julián Castro 833
      Amy Klobuchar 733
      Bill de Blasio 527
      John Delaney 464
      Tulsi Gabbard 362
      Jay Inslee 272
      Tim Ryan 212

      3 votes
      1. alyaza
        Link Parent
        also of interest, someone on reddit is keeping track of questions and interruptions, which is as follows: "I'm not counting failed interruptions (where they tried but where talked over or owned by...

        also of interest, someone on reddit is keeping track of questions and interruptions, which is as follows:

        "I'm not counting failed interruptions (where they tried but where talked over or owned by the moderators), but I'll list them here) Castro 1, Delaney 2, de Blasio 1

        Warren 5, and one interruption (6 total)
        Beto 6
        Klobuchar 5
        Booker 5
        Gabbard 3
        de Blasio 1, and two interruptions (3 total)
        Ryan 2
        Delaney 1, and one interruption (2 total)
        Castro 3, and two interruptions (5 total)
        Inslee 2, and one interruption (4 total)"

        4 votes
    2. [2]
      brotherhood4232
      Link Parent
      I can’t tell if she’s just really good at staying within the time limit or if they just aren’t stopping her. They haven’t called time on her once as far as I could tell.

      I can’t tell if she’s just really good at staying within the time limit or if they just aren’t stopping her. They haven’t called time on her once as far as I could tell.

      1 vote
      1. alyaza
        Link Parent
        she got called once, but yeah she's also been very good about staying in the time limit so far.

        she got called once, but yeah she's also been very good about staying in the time limit so far.

    3. [2]
      monarda
      Link Parent
      She is getting more time. Boo.

      She is getting more time. Boo.

      1 vote
      1. alyaza
        Link Parent
        a lot of it seems to be that people are playing into her talking points and she's getting chances to respond with them, and the moderators are also basically distinguishing her against the field...

        a lot of it seems to be that people are playing into her talking points and she's getting chances to respond with them, and the moderators are also basically distinguishing her against the field with some of these questions, although she's also had more questions.

        2 votes
  15. [2]
    hamstergeddon
    Link
    Looking forward to watching this. I'll try to keep active here to help keep a discussion going!

    Looking forward to watching this. I'll try to keep active here to help keep a discussion going!

    2 votes
    1. RapidEyeMovement
      Link Parent
      I'm curious to see how Tulsi and Warren does.

      I'm curious to see how Tulsi and Warren does.

      2 votes
  16. [4]
    alyaza
    Link
    beto's already distinguishing himself with the bilingual answer there, even though he didn't exactly answer the question that was asked of him and didn't do much with the follow up either. that'll...

    beto's already distinguishing himself with the bilingual answer there, even though he didn't exactly answer the question that was asked of him and didn't do much with the follow up either. that'll probably get him places with latino voters, and he's already not doing especially badly with them.

    2 votes
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      Good on the moderator to ask the direct follow-up, "yes, no, or pass", after Beto obviously didn't answer. Boo on O'Rourke for dodging it again.

      Good on the moderator to ask the direct follow-up, "yes, no, or pass", after Beto obviously didn't answer. Boo on O'Rourke for dodging it again.

      5 votes
    2. alyaza
      Link Parent
      and there's booker, also speaking spanish. his spanish, purely based on how it came off to this gringo, seemed a bit worse than beto's, but hey. he definitely needs latino voters (although...

      and there's booker, also speaking spanish. his spanish, purely based on how it came off to this gringo, seemed a bit worse than beto's, but hey. he definitely needs latino voters (although honestly he also needs every kind of voter, he's only polling like 4%). decent response to the question also.

      1 vote
  17. [3]
    brotherhood4232
    Link
    Oh here we go. They’ve started interrupting each other. ...omg. Delaney’s smile is soooo weird.

    Oh here we go. They’ve started interrupting each other.

    ...omg. Delaney’s smile is soooo weird.

    2 votes
    1. [2]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      it was inevitable. also, ouch did that interruption lead to de blasio making beto look kinda ridiculous on healthcare, especially since delaney followed de blasio up with a relatively good...

      it was inevitable. also, ouch did that interruption lead to de blasio making beto look kinda ridiculous on healthcare, especially since delaney followed de blasio up with a relatively good response on the fact that private healthcare can coexist with an M4A system or something similar.

      1. brotherhood4232
        Link Parent
        Yeah. Beto is sounding a bit more nervous now. Talking faster and with a more clipped voice. Like he’s running out breath.

        Yeah. Beto is sounding a bit more nervous now. Talking faster and with a more clipped voice. Like he’s running out breath.

        1 vote
  18. spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Castro's first mention of that specific section of the immigration law was good...he's turning into a bit of a one-trick pony on it though. Also him and Beto talking over each other is really...

    Castro's first mention of that specific section of the immigration law was good...he's turning into a bit of a one-trick pony on it though.

    Also him and Beto talking over each other is really annoying.

    2 votes
  19. [2]
    monarda
    Link
    Who is the guy arguing with Beto?

    Who is the guy arguing with Beto?

    2 votes
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      Julian Castro, former mayor of San Antonio and HUD Secretary under Obama

      Julian Castro, former mayor of San Antonio and HUD Secretary under Obama

      4 votes
  20. [4]
    teaearlgraycold
    Link
    Anyone know why Sanders isn't in this debate?

    Anyone know why Sanders isn't in this debate?

    2 votes
    1. [2]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      because it's the first of a series of two due to the size of the field. he goes tomorrow, same time, same place.

      because it's the first of a series of two due to the size of the field. he goes tomorrow, same time, same place.

      5 votes
  21. gpl
    Link
    I have to say, I am impressed with all of the candidates tonight with how policy focused the debate was. It was really refreshing and I feel I actually have a better sense of what each candidate...

    I have to say, I am impressed with all of the candidates tonight with how policy focused the debate was. It was really refreshing and I feel I actually have a better sense of what each candidate wants. I went into the debate liking Warren the most, and think I still do. That being said, Castro really had a great night as did Booker. I was pleasantly surprised by Inslee as well - I’d love to see him as Energy Sec or EPA Chief.

    Watching the closing statements now, and Warren’s was the best I think. I’m really excited about her.

    2 votes
  22. [2]
    Nmg
    (edited )
    Link
    I felt that many of the candidates are well qualified, and unlike tomorrow's debate they all have sufficient experience in my book, which is filter #1. Filter #2 is how pragmatic and knowledgable...

    I felt that many of the candidates are well qualified, and unlike tomorrow's debate they all have sufficient experience in my book, which is filter #1.

    Filter #2 is how pragmatic and knowledgable about policy are they.

    Delaney I felt met the mark on both, and I felt the moderators tried to shut him out.

    Warren is an absolute policy wonk, and I think her answer on gun violence was the best one there us. I don't think I necessarily agree with her policies as she invisions them, particularly free university, but I appreciate her candor and how well she presents her case, even though I think she lacks some in pragmatism. She passes this filter for me.

    I knew nothing about Klobuchar before, but I thought she showed off her pragmatism in this debate. She knows what she is talking about too.


    While I am commenting, I feel like there needs to be some sort of disincentive for illegal immigration. Certainly it doesn't make sense to imprison people, but it simply isn't fair to allow just anyone crossing the border from the south to jump the line in front of well qualified workers on the waiting list into the country. This wasn't addressed by any candidate. certainly reducing instability in latin America could help, which was addressed. Expansion of temporary work visas for migrant workers would be a good idea too.

    2 votes
    1. moriarty
      Link Parent
      As an immigrant, I totally agree on immigration. Asylum seekers is one thing, but completely opening the border and allowing economic illegal immigration like what Castro was pushing for is not...

      As an immigrant, I totally agree on immigration. Asylum seekers is one thing, but completely opening the border and allowing economic illegal immigration like what Castro was pushing for is not only wrong, it is also impractical. As much as I agree about immigrants generally making the country stronger, a big part of the country does not. Paternalistically telling them that they're wrong plays directly into Trump's base.

  23. [4]
    alyaza
    Link
    tulsi sounded stiff (which, maybe that's just how she speaks? i haven't heard her speak and i thought the same thing with klobuchar when i first heard her speak) and got that awkward...
    • tulsi sounded stiff (which, maybe that's just how she speaks? i haven't heard her speak and i thought the same thing with klobuchar when i first heard her speak) and got that awkward pause-before-clap while not even answering the question well. oof. kinda awkward, honestly! she's pretty low in name recognition, though, so it's sorta understandable.
    • de blasio had a surprisingly good statement! too bad he's still unlikable.
    • i didn't catch delaney's, alas, and i don't really have takes on inslee or castro's statements.
    • warren so far has been my leader through the first rounds of questioning, although some other candidates have definitely also hit the mark. she's done a good job at keeping concise but being clear in her policies, which i guess is the big benefit of being a policy wonk with a shit ton of policy already.
    1 vote
    1. [3]
      brotherhood4232
      Link Parent
      Yeah, Warren seems very practiced. She’s been getting me to pay attention more than the rest anyway.

      Yeah, Warren seems very practiced. She’s been getting me to pay attention more than the rest anyway.

      2 votes
      1. [2]
        spit-evil-olive-tips
        Link Parent
        It's annoying, after the DNC talked so much about randomizing the debate lineups between the two nights, this first night ended up being a bunch of also-rans plus Warren (and maybe Booker...

        It's annoying, after the DNC talked so much about randomizing the debate lineups between the two nights, this first night ended up being a bunch of also-rans plus Warren (and maybe Booker depending on how you want to draw the line).

        3 votes
        1. brotherhood4232
          Link Parent
          Yeah… it’s kinda weird when combined with how many of the mainstream media pundits have been talking about Warren recently. She leads over Sanders in like 1 poll and they’re all talking like she’s...

          Yeah… it’s kinda weird when combined with how many of the mainstream media pundits have been talking about Warren recently. She leads over Sanders in like 1 poll and they’re all talking like she’s number 2 now. Being the only one with a chance on stage might help her.

          Ah well. I’m probably paranoid.

          1 vote
  24. [3]
    Gyrfalcon
    Link
    I'm just tuning in now, but does anyone know why the stream is steadily being disliked into oblivion?

    I'm just tuning in now, but does anyone know why the stream is steadily being disliked into oblivion?

    1 vote
  25. Spodacus
    Link
    I'll tell you what, I was very surprised how much I liked Inslee. His pro-green and pro-worker policy was very appealing to me. Highlight of the night had to be when Gabbard went off on Ryan about...

    I'll tell you what, I was very surprised how much I liked Inslee. His pro-green and pro-worker policy was very appealing to me.

    Highlight of the night had to be when Gabbard went off on Ryan about how we don't need to be in Afganistan any longer. It blows my mind to think there are people out there that think they can win the ticket when they are preaching for us to continue the endless war.

    Lowlight of the night had to be when Booker spoke Spanish. When O'Rurke spoke it at first it was neat and genuine, but as he went on it just felt kinda awkward to watch. When Booker tried to follow it up AND stammered the first few words it felt like obvious pandering.

    1 vote
    1. NaraVara
      Link Parent
      Warren/Castro might be a strong ticket, though she'd probably need to balance herself out with someone with more "heartland" appeal. Would probably depend on how well Warren polls in Michigan,...

      Warren/Castro might be a strong ticket, though she'd probably need to balance herself out with someone with more "heartland" appeal. Would probably depend on how well Warren polls in Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc.