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What learning do you find easy or difficult? And why?
Recently I have been trying to learn a new language, because I need to more so than I want to, and it's been really tough. While this isn't a shocking revelation, I had a bit of a deep dive to try and think about how and why I don't like learning a language. I do enjoy learning about a great deal of other things in my spare time, why not this?
So I pose the following questions to you:
- What kind of thing do you enjoy learning about?
- Do you find a specific format or type of learning helps you when it's tough?
- Do you always use the same format of learning?
- What do you not enjoy learning? Why? Try and explain what it is that makes it difficult compared to above.
Be interested to hear how different people feel.
So my background is in linguistics, but not pedagogy. (Deleted as a reply to your comment above because my fingers are imprecise.)
The way everyone learns language —the way potentially “hardwired” into just about every human being—is conversation. This is how you learned your first language: listening and repeating what was going on around you. Corrections were made actively and also passively, and tada! Now you speak a language.
Learning grammar from a book, studying vocabulary lists, reading in the target language, etc, these are all good supplements to an actual conversational course of study.
A one-on-one teacher who focuses on conversation and not rote memorization is the ideal. There are places online that offer this, but I would also recommend if you are near a good sized university, putting up an advertisement looking for a native speaker to sit down with you over coffee and chat, or read a basic text and discuss. Most college students could use a little extra cash.
If money is an issue, I recommend sailing the high seas and acquiring a Pimsleur course for your language. They follow the principles of listen and repeat. They tend to be good for getting a soft-launch into conversational ability.
Second is time. Learning your first language was your brain’s job pretty much 24/7 since before you were born. You were likely surrounded exclusively by that language, which helped.
Now, it’s less easy. You’ll want to give yourself a boost. Put on music while doing chores. There are entire sections of Youtube dedicated to low-level conversations or even news bulletins for language learners. The point is to overwhelm your senses with the language as much as possible. Things like narrating your day to yourself—a common occurrence amongst small children attempting to have a better grip on language—also helps get your brain moving in the right direction.
Most importantly, don’t give up! Language acquisition is easy for babies because it’s all they do. As an adult, most people don’t have the time to dedicate their entire existence to acquiring a language, so don’t become frustrated!
Finally, language learning does not operate in the same parts of the brain as the study of science, maths, or even history. An ability or affinity for learning things other than languages does not correlate to an easier time learning language, so don’t take your ease in other areas as an inexplicable lack in this one.
Good luck! (I may come back an update this with more sources later today.)
I studied Japanese for a few years in an immersion class. Once the lessons started it was Japanese-only the whole time. It took the whole first lesson for us to learn how to say what is this, what is that, this is an apple, that is an apple. Super basic but a strong foundation to build on. The teacher was fantastic. They also organized a monthly language exchange meetup where the Canadians learning Japanese would get together with Japanese people learning English. It was a really fantastic way to get to actually use the language, and I made a ton of Japanese friends through the program who I keep in touch with to this day. Life kinda got in the way and I stopped studying, but I reckon I could still at least ask for directions and understand the answer!
Point being, learning a language from a book alone sounds impossible. You really do have to use it for it to work.
My husband finds language partners online through a corporate website. Message me for details if interested. He doesn't pay so I don't know how they earn money
Fantastic post, thanks for taking the time to write that!
Adding an immersion idea, I really enjoy foreign movies in the language of interest. Last time I leaned into this, Netflix was pretty decent for international film options, being able to change the spoken and captioned language to what I was trying to improve, and i think you can slow the playback speed to help keep up. Might be mixing up platforms..
Admittedly, this was for a language I already have intermediate proficiency in, so i could see it becoming very frustrating starting at square one.
Video games can be good also. Steam has dubs and subs in many languages
Watching with subtitles in your native language can work when your vocabulary or speed recognition isn't great yet. The only time I found this unhelpful was when I was trying to learn ASL - I could only focus on one of the visual conversation or the text.
Kids in many places learned English by watching MTV with subtitles in the 90's.
I think I can't answer these questions in their entirety without derailing the topic too much, so I'll just say it depends on what I'm learning. There is no formula I follow for every type of learning. But for things like language, I found incorporating them into something I love and practicing them that way to be the most helpful.
For example, English is not my native language, but I've been using it for so long due to my hobbies that it comes very easily to me now, compared to most non-natives. Throughout the years I read and watched a lot of content from fan communities, comics, Youtube videos, TV shows etc. in English, and it helped me massively. I've also been participating in them, writing comments for years. It also helped that English communities and media attracted me more.
I think for language, however cliche, practice is the key. I think while practicing in an artificial environment is helpful, especially in early stages, reading and participating in natural environments is key to proficiency and fluency. I did this by finding things I love in English.
I'll go into some more detail about my thoughts and feelings.
Interest for me seems to be a big driving force, almost a little obsessive. If I discover something new and it interests me or I think about something and I decided I want to research it I can get really stuck in until I understand it really properly (at least enough to feel confident to explain it to someone else).
I love just googling around and reading about things, a recent example would be the discovery and production of penicillin and anti biotics.
I don't like videos, I know a lot of people do, but I really don't enjoy absorbing information not at my own speed (which isn't very fast). Instead I read a lot, diagrams or pictures work too.
This all leads me to my current dilemma, language. I hated it at school and I thought as an adult I might find it easier to at least be more patient and organize myself but wow, I'm finding it tough.
I found it genuinely uncomfortable to learn vocabulary. Grammar I can at least study a bit and I get some enjoyment out of learning the rules and the history, but the actual vocabulary and dialects, totally makes my brain... Uncomfortable.
I've tried various techniques of listening, reading, watching and none of them have really given me the results I want.
I find myself frustrated that I'm not able to make or understand conversation, progress is too slow, the wins aren't big enough.
I guess it gets to me because I want to enjoy learning it but have been unable. Then I found it strange I could enjoy learning one thing but not another, but really I think there's a lot to unpack here, it's not so tit for tat!
In terms of language learning, unfortunately I don't think you can get away from learning vocab. In terms of language learning methods, I like Refold's roadmap. I wouldn't pay for anything from them, but I like the roadmap. You start off with bootstrapping your vocab with the 1000-2000 most common words in the language in Anki, and you focus on listening and reading as much of the target language as you can, aiming for a 90-95% comprehension rate. Then continue with occasional grammar as well as sentence mining for advance vocab, but you should aim to get most grammar from intuition after seeing it many times.
My husband finds language partners for conversations and practice through www.mylanguageexchange.com
I have no affiliation with the website.
I also don't love learning vocabulary. However, after I have practiced vocabulary, I find it satisfying when I see or hear the word in a song or a TV conversation.
Learning languages is pretty easy for me. I tend to pick them up as I go. On the other hand, I struggle with things like algebra or anything else that involves equations and lots of moving parts on the page. A lot of learning for me has to do with the typical ADHD "NICE" scale (is it novel, is it interesting, is it challenging, is it urgent?). I tend to follow the dopamine when it comes to learning, and it shows in the things I know, or am interested in.
Coding is really hard for me, but not as interesting as something like sewing, which is equally challenging, but it's something I can physically move around and do with my hands. Things I can physically do are much easier for me, because they're the perfect challenge level.
I also really enjoy learning about history, now that I don't have to do it for school. I can pick what I think is interesting and learn more about that. I've recently fallen into the fashion history rabbit hole, but I also really love food history, and the history of science - because again, they're interesting. Dates, wars, who was invading whom, not interesting to me. I care more about the everyday, the things that connect us as humans, when it comes to history.
With language, I grew up bilingual, and knew Russian before I learned English, even though I was born and raised in California, due to my family and going to a Russian-speaking preschool. I picked up other language words here and there, and took French and Spanish in high school, while also spending a bit trying to learn some conversational Hebrew (which I gave up because I was too busy). I'm now learning ASL with an app, and practicing with my best friend, who is also learning ASL (independently of one another, neither of us knew the other was learning at first), and I am relearning Spanish, since I work for a company that is based in the US and MX.
Like I said, when it comes down to it, if I can physically do a thing, and it's interesting and new to me, I will try to learn more about it. I have tried to learn to code multiple times, and while I can do some basic stuff with HTML, I don't think I will ever be working with code full-time for work or anything other than fun little side projects or doing basic upkeep of my website.
Don't be discouraged! Learning new things is hard, and the fact you're working your brain like this is amazing! Keep going, even though it's hard. I know you can do it!
That's fascinating! I understand a lot of what you say, but just replace the topics/subjects.
Interestingly I self taught myself to do some pretty complicated cos play costume design stuff when I was younger and, although it clearly was not how my brain wanted to work, I eventually picked it up and learned it.
The brain is a really spooky thing.
It's fascinating. I used to work at a Neurosciences institute with lots of pretty top people in the field, and they loved their research and would talk to anyone who would listen, including making it "normal people" (not a PhD) friendly. I learned a lot when I was there.
There's still so much we don't know about how it works, but we're learning more every day.
I've heard of this in passing. I'm curious if you or anyone else has ways to deal with learning things that don't nicely fit into this? Can you force something into feeling novel, interesting, challenging or urgent?
When I was in school, the answer was no. I couldn't learn something if it wasn't a NICE. I struggled so much with topics that didn't interest me, or I couldn't get my head around because it wasn't any of those items, that I almost failed out of my chosen degree path in college. Urgency by procrastination was really the only way, and it really didn't help, because by the time it was urgent enough, it was too late for me to properly learn a lot of the information I needed to learn. I scraped by a lot with c's. I also have trouble taking timed tests in rooms with other people because the noises other people make stress me out and distract me, and I hyperfocus on the clock instead of focusing on what's in front of me.
Now that I'm properly diagnosed, medicated, and kind of understand how my brain works, I am able to learn things that don't fit neatly into NICE, by making them one of those categories. Say I went back to school now and needed to take algebra. I would make it novel by following the dopamine. I'd give myself small, attainable goals for each section, and then I would reward myself for hitting eat attainable goal. Or I would wait until the last minute and make it urgent.
Another issue I had through school is that things tended to be too repetitive for me in terms of learning. Once I learned something, I was done with it and if it got brought up again, I would be incredibly resistant to retaining the information or hearing about it again. Because it wasn't something novel and new, it just annoyed me. I still struggle with people repeating themselves with regard to information if I've already heard it, and have to temper myself when clients do this to me on the phone and reassure them I got it instead of getting annoyed that they're repeating themselves over and over.
I've spent the last several weeks using spaced repetition through Anki and have been enjoying it a lot. I'm learning morse code, the 300 most common species in my area (through iNaturalist), all of the countries of the world (location on map, flag, capital city), the 650 most common spanish words, the constellations, and common english idioms. It's been a lot of fun and it's pretty magical how well spaced repetition works.
I'd heard about it before but never really took the leap. However, I recently came across this overview which made me want to finally take the plunge. That post cites Fluent Forever as one of its inspirations. Wanting to learn Spanish but not having really taken many active steps, I bought the book and have to say I've also enjoyed it. It focuses on using spaced repetition to accelerate language learning.
The "Further Reading" section at the end of the post is a trove of interesting links on spaced repetition, including the article Augmenting Long-Term Memory by Michael Nielson which emphasizes how spaced repetition can be used for more than just memorizing lists of facts.
So, anyway, both specific to language learning and more broadly, I've been surprised to see how much I've enjoyed trying to use Spaced Repetition to learn new things at this stage in life.
I love Anki, and recommend it to anyone wanting to memorize anything. However, while I do use it for vocabulary reinforcement, it's not a tool that I think can be leveraged for fully exercising a language -- i.e. speaking or writing full sentences in real life contexts. So, though Anki is a big part of my language study, it's not the only part.
I'm currently learning a new language, with the intention of becoming fluent. I gave myself a timeline of, after three years of study, being able to visit a foreign country that speaks my target language, and get around, order food, communicate with business staff (hotels, stores, resorts, and so on), and not get easily swindled. I hope to achieve enough fluency after 6 years of study to be able to have a conversation with strangers or friends.
My point is: Perhaps you are not giving yourself enough time? Indeed, learning a new language as an adult is hard (harder than as a child or a youth, anyway). Perhaps you should adjust your expectations of yourself. What kind of timeline did you have in mind for your language learning?
Genuinely I think learning a language is easier as an adult than a child, the difference is just time, motivation, and alternatives. As a kid, you have no choice but to learn your native language - what else are you going to do? Meanwhile, as an adult you can alway stay with the safe choice of your already known mother tongue. As an adult, 2 hours per day on language learning is pretty hardcore, but it's nothing for a kid.
It's just that as a kid, language learning is obfuscated by all the general learning you do - in comparison to, say, mathematics, you learn languages much more by intuition, so it doesn't seem like learning, while as an adult watching Blue's Clues in German or something is just pain.
I have heard that it's actually much easier for children to learn new languages before puberty (I don't remember where I heard it - maybe in my early ed classes?) because of how spongy their brains are in terms of learning new things. While they may not be motivated to learn language on their own, being immersed in various languages is likely helpful to their learning lots of languages.
On the other hand, the plasticity of learning is less available the older you get, but it's still good to try! I love watching things like Bluey in other languages, and my favorite thing to watch in Spanish is actually Hercules because Zeus makes the stupidest baby noises.
As a positive example, I have an older family member (nearly 70) who's learned a second language over the past few years. They're someone who's always felt they struggled picking up languages. Started with duo lingo, then classes (much easier to access with so many courses taught online).
They're very much at a casual conversational level now. It's quite impressive.
I do understand it's a long process. It's been about a year and a half for me and I still feel far from conversational, it's pretty demotivating. But the situation I'm in doesn't particularly give me much choice in giving up even if I wanted to!
Given that it's a requirement for you, and not just a hobby, I think you'll need to increase the immersion level, and the chances to practice with people. Also, spending some [more?] money on the endeavour would probably help. You can certainly learn a fair bit from the Internet for free, but, in my experience (and like much in life), "you get what you pay for" applies.
I don’t know if there’s specific subjects that I’m strong or weak at, but I would say that the more separated something is from grounding application and more abstract it is the more difficult I find it to learn. Subjects that I can readily put into use I can probably learn without too much trouble.
Subjects surrounded by what I would call “fluff” (though perhaps an over-simplistic or unfair designation in some cases) — subject-specific terminology that could be substituted for more common language with little issue — can also be troublesome, because my patience for learning specialized, largely unnecessary lingo is short. The subjects I learn best can be taught in a method that is to-the-point with little overhead.