30 votes

Tilde Users and Privacy

Tags: privacy

While there were numerous reasons for my exit from Reddit, privacy was a large one. This was something that when I joined here I thought was a fairly widespread view. For me my view of Reddit started to waiver a few years ago when their warrant canary was tripped. I've always been of the idea that the less of what I do online that can be traced back to me, the better. I also abhor the state of privacy online and in the US.

Despite this, what I thought was fairly universal viewpoint, there have been several threads(like here and here) where people give out identifying information about themselves. This, combined with many people using their real names as their usernames or revealing their real names in the introduction threads, made me realize that this is not an ideal that we all share to the same extent.

I guess that leads into my question, how privacy conscious are you guys online and what the the general vibe you've gotten from the ~'s community?

42 comments

  1. [5]
    Comment deleted by author
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    1. [2]
      enso
      Link Parent
      I just got a new laptop and haven't had the time to set up dual booting yet because I've had too much schoolwork to do. I was always on the Firefox train and for the most part I'll use FOSS...

      I just got a new laptop and haven't had the time to set up dual booting yet because I've had too much schoolwork to do. I was always on the Firefox train and for the most part I'll use FOSS software when I can and its not garbage.

      3 votes
      1. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
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        1. enso
          Link Parent
          I had to get a laptop midway through my summer because my last one died on me. I do still need windows for some things like MATLAB, CAD, and some of the niche modeling and simulation software that...

          I had to get a laptop midway through my summer because my last one died on me. I do still need windows for some things like MATLAB, CAD, and some of the niche modeling and simulation software that we use. For just about everything else except games, and even for those most of the games I play have ports, I like to use Linux.

          2 votes
    2. [2]
      bme
      Link Parent
      Your last part is what interests me. I don't care about people looking at my ~ posts. I do care about massive programmatic tracking of everything I do across multiple web properties. I'd worry...

      Your last part is what interests me. I don't care about people looking at my ~ posts. I do care about massive programmatic tracking of everything I do across multiple web properties. I'd worry about ditching my phone long before I worry about post content. Metadata is everything.

      3 votes
      1. apoctr
        Link Parent
        Yep. There's a few quotes from EFF that highlight this particularly well:

        Metadata is everything.

        Yep. There's a few quotes from EFF that highlight this particularly well:

        They know you called the suicide prevention hotline from the Golden Gate Bridge. But the topic of the call remains a secret.

        They know you got an email from an HIV testing service, then called your doctor, then visited an HIV support group website in the same hour. But they don't know what was in the email or what you talked about on the phone.

        They know you called a gynecologist, spoke for a half hour, and then searched online for the local abortion clinic’s number later that day. But nobody knows what you spoke about.

        6 votes
  2. [16]
    Comment deleted by author
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    1. [2]
      aphoenix
      Link Parent
      I think that one of the issues is that if you say "My name is Dave Smith and I live in Exampleville" then there's no real way to ensure privacy on that. Stopping people from reading your comments...

      I think that one of the issues is that if you say "My name is Dave Smith and I live in Exampleville" then there's no real way to ensure privacy on that. Stopping people from reading your comments doesn't prevent any other site from indexing your comments and associating them with your username (like ceddit or removeddit or any other more generic archiving service).

      I think the option to turn off your comment history is good for a minor layer of privacy - it could prevent drive-by-assholisms, but that's about it. If you are truly conscientious about your privacy, the only really viable solution is to do as you say and keep your comment impersonal.

      I think you're underplaying the significance of the click tracking and ad selling that Tildes in no way takes part in. That's huge for privacy.

      I don't really care if people know that I am me, but I do care if businesses know what I tend to click on or how I spend my time. I appreciate that Tildes preserves that privacy, and I think it is really important.

      8 votes
      1. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
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        1. ZaphodBeebblebrox
          Link Parent
          ~ does plan to allow anonymous posting of some form, which will let people post more personal information without it being tied back to their account. Beyond that, there does not appear to be any...

          ~ does plan to allow anonymous posting of some form, which will let people post more personal information without it being tied back to their account. Beyond that, there does not appear to be any way to stop a determined scraper from finding posts.

          4 votes
    2. [3]
      Comment deleted by author
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      1. [3]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [3]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [3]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. ZaphodBeebblebrox
              Link Parent
              The email was not actually required, reddit just tried to imply it was. When creating a reddit account, you can click next without entering an email and everything would still work.

              The email was not actually required, reddit just tried to imply it was. When creating a reddit account, you can click next without entering an email and everything would still work.

              4 votes
            2. [2]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                Here he is, quoting the Code of Conduct he wrote: I would point out, though, that the only way to create an alt is to get someone to invite you - or to invite yourself. Either way, the new account...

                (although I don't know how @Deimos feels about people creating alts at this stage of Tildes).

                Here he is, quoting the Code of Conduct he wrote:

                You may register and use multiple Tildes accounts, but do not:

                • Use additional accounts for the purpose of deceiving others, such as by replying to your own posts from different accounts to create the illusion of support.
                • Use additional accounts to manipulate site mechanics beyond what you could do with a single account. For example, do not vote multiple times on the same post, or vote on your own posts.

                I would point out, though, that the only way to create an alt is to get someone to invite you - or to invite yourself. Either way, the new account is linked to the account which invited you. Someone knows who you are.

                4 votes
    3. [11]
      enso
      Link Parent
      I remember reading that and I liked it. It seems that the majority of people anymore have either given up on keeping their privacy or don't really know how to keep themselves private.

      I remember reading that and I liked it. It seems that the majority of people anymore have either given up on keeping their privacy or don't really know how to keep themselves private.

      2 votes
      1. [9]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        "Privacy fatigue" is a real thing.

        "Privacy fatigue" is a real thing.

        3 votes
        1. [9]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [8]
            Algernon_Asimov
            Link Parent
            There are plenty of articles about privacy fatigue out there. Just pick one and away you go!

            There are plenty of articles about privacy fatigue out there. Just pick one and away you go!

            3 votes
            1. [7]
              ourari
              Link Parent
              Same search, but without Google looking over your shoulder: https://www.startpage.com/do/search?query=privacy+fatigue Thanks for bringing up privacy fatigue, by the way. I like your suggestion...

              Same search, but without Google looking over your shoulder:
              https://www.startpage.com/do/search?query=privacy+fatigue

              Thanks for bringing up privacy fatigue, by the way.

              I like your suggestion @apoctr to have a discussion about this subject alone. Maybe select a few articles to highlight in the opening post to help inform the debate?

              2 votes
              1. [6]
                Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                Wow. You're overcomplicating this. https://tildes.net/~talk/1km/how_much_is_too_much_when_it_comes_to_self_disclosure_a_condition_called_privacy_fatigue_may_lead There. Done.
                3 votes
                1. [5]
                  ourari
                  Link Parent
                  Nice attitude.

                  Nice attitude.

                  2 votes
                  1. [4]
                    Algernon_Asimov
                    Link Parent
                    Yep. "Cut through the bullshit and just get it done."

                    Yep. "Cut through the bullshit and just get it done."

                    2 votes
                    1. [3]
                      ourari
                      Link Parent
                      Or crap in crap out. Lack of preparation isn't always the best approach.

                      Or crap in crap out. Lack of preparation isn't always the best approach.

                      1 vote
                      1. [2]
                        Algernon_Asimov
                        Link Parent
                        Oh, for the sake of fuck. We're not lecturing at a university, or giving a presentation to the CEO. It's an internet forum for discussion. Just get out there and discuss stuff.

                        Oh, for the sake of fuck. We're not lecturing at a university, or giving a presentation to the CEO. It's an internet forum for discussion. Just get out there and discuss stuff.

                        2 votes
                        1. ourari
                          Link Parent
                          Again, what's with the attitude? Calm down, be civil.

                          Again, what's with the attitude? Calm down, be civil.

                          1 vote
      2. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
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        1. aleph
          Link Parent
          I would definitely agree the wide spread proliferation of social media has made people a lot less privacy conscientious. Hopefully the tides change a bit more with some of the recent user data...

          I would definitely agree the wide spread proliferation of social media has made people a lot less privacy conscientious. Hopefully the tides change a bit more with some of the recent user data privacy scandals.

          2 votes
  3. [9]
    Algernon_Asimov
    (edited )
    Link
    I've been a moderator on Reddit for nearly 6 years in various subreddits - including some high-profile ones. Over those years, I've been trolled, stalked, and threatened. I've therefore learned...

    I've been a moderator on Reddit for nearly 6 years in various subreddits - including some high-profile ones. Over those years, I've been trolled, stalked, and threatened.

    I've therefore learned the hard way to make myself a small target online. I'll tell people I live in Australia, but not which city or town - not even which state. I don't post in any geographical subreddit more local than /r/Australia, so people can't look through my user history to find where I live. I don't reveal my real name (not even just my first name) on this account. I don't even share my political views (to prevent perceptions of political bias when moderating). You'll get my gender, my age (roughly), my country - and that's about it.

    The only places my privacy is really at risk is on Facebook and my Android phone. Even then, I've removed as much specific information from Facebook as I can: no phone number, no school history, no university, no employer, and so on. Even my birthday is set to "just me" privacy. Only my name is visible, even to my friends. The Android phone is more of a worry. But that's sort of unavoidable. Google is watching me. :(

    P.S. I won't even upgrade my operating system to Windows 10, because I don't want yet another company watching what I do on the internet.

    9 votes
    1. [7]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [6]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        Did you look through this thread about why people chose their usernames? There are a surprising number of people using their real name as their username.

        I don't see much of that on ~

        Did you look through this thread about why people chose their usernames? There are a surprising number of people using their real name as their username.

        4 votes
        1. [6]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [5]
            Algernon_Asimov
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I just counted: about 12 different people in that thread said they chose their username based on their real name, whether it's their first name, or their initials, or an initial and their last...

            I just counted: about 12 different people in that thread said they chose their username based on their real name, whether it's their first name, or their initials, or an initial and their last name (EDIT: and there are a few more in this thread). A few other people say they're using real-life nicknames.

            Those people might be in the minority, but they're not an insignificant minority.

            2 votes
            1. [5]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. [4]
                Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                I didn't say there were LOTS of people using their real names. But there's definitely a noticeable minority of people doing it. 1 in 15 people (based on your estimate of 6.5%) is not...

                I didn't say there were LOTS of people using their real names. But there's definitely a noticeable minority of people doing it. 1 in 15 people (based on your estimate of 6.5%) is not insignificant.

                P.S. People will have to stop using the tilde to replace the "roughly equal to" symbol (≈) on this website - it's confusing! :)

                3 votes
                1. [4]
                  Comment deleted by author
                  Link Parent
                  1. ZaphodBeebblebrox
                    Link Parent
                    And on ~ it can also be used to refer to The site itself A catagory on the site The users of the site

                    And on ~ it can also be used to refer to

                    1. The site itself
                    2. A catagory on the site
                    3. The users of the site
                    1 vote
                  2. [2]
                    Algernon_Asimov
                    Link Parent
                    I do use litotes (it's a common Aussie trait), but not this time. This time I'm being literal. You and many many others. I've never liked it, but now I have a legitimate reason to say so! :)

                    When you're saying "not insignificant", I translate that to "it's significant", which I then take to mean "large amount".

                    I do use litotes (it's a common Aussie trait), but not this time. This time I'm being literal.

                    Ah, sorry about that. Using ~ that way is kind of ingrained into me :).

                    You and many many others. I've never liked it, but now I have a legitimate reason to say so! :)

                    1 vote
                    1. [2]
                      Comment deleted by author
                      Link Parent
                      1. Algernon_Asimov
                        Link Parent
                        "This time, it's not a litotes. It's not a a figure of speech that uses understatement to emphasize a point by stating a negative to further affirm a positive. I'm not using a double negative (not...

                        "This time, it's not a litotes. It's not a a figure of speech that uses understatement to emphasize a point by stating a negative to further affirm a positive. I'm not using a double negative (not insignificant) to affirm the positive (significant). This time, it's simply a literal statement that 6.5% is not insignificant (like 0.1% would be)."

                        1 vote
    2. ourari
      Link Parent
      Unfortunately, Microsoft has included some of the same telemetry of Windows 10 in updates for Windows 7 and 8.1.

      P.S. I won't even upgrade my operating system to Windows 10, because I don't want yet another company watching what I do on the internet.

      Unfortunately, Microsoft has included some of the same telemetry of Windows 10 in updates for Windows 7 and 8.1.

      2 votes
    3. ourari
      Link Parent
      Sounds very reasonable. You encountered a threat and adjusted your behaviour accordingly.

      Sounds very reasonable. You encountered a threat and adjusted your behaviour accordingly.

      1 vote
  4. [5]
    roadrunner
    Link
    Privacy is very important to me. I wish there was a way to convince more people that it should be important to them. Folks are handing over everything about themselves with this sort-of corporate...

    Privacy is very important to me. I wish there was a way to convince more people that it should be important to them. Folks are handing over everything about themselves with this sort-of corporate trust / corporate forgiveness with the mindset that people being privacy-conscious is akin to paranoia. It’s like the majority of people online lack the basic ability to think creatively about what can be revealed about them or done to them with the info they feed into the internet.

    Something I’m working on with a community member is how to present online privacy in a way that engages people and provides at least a glimmer why they should care about this stuff. We won’t change the minds of most people, but I suppose it’s about creating a herd that can sway the rest of the folks.

    By the way, if anyone has suggestions on strategies to awaken people, I’m all ears/eyes!

    7 votes
    1. [3]
      bee
      Link Parent
      privacy ≠ secrecy. I don't think this is something a lot of people understand. As an example of this, if you're making a bank transaction, you might try to cover the card reader. Not because you...

      privacy ≠ secrecy. I don't think this is something a lot of people understand. As an example of this, if you're making a bank transaction, you might try to cover the card reader. Not because you want secrecy. Everyone will know you're making a transaction. You're covering the reader because you want privacy.

      Edit: Grammar

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        roadrunner
        Link Parent
        I like the notion of emphasizing the distinction between privacy and secrecy. The ATM machine is a perfect example. That’s in my tool chest now, thank you.

        I like the notion of emphasizing the distinction between privacy and secrecy. The ATM machine is a perfect example. That’s in my tool chest now, thank you.

        2 votes
        1. bee
          Link Parent
          No problem! :)

          No problem! :)

          1 vote
    2. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. roadrunner
        Link Parent
        You make a good point about illustrating the ease of finding personal info online, though I must say that the people I used to see some hope for have been...set free(?) by the Equifax breech. It’s...

        You make a good point about illustrating the ease of finding personal info online, though I must say that the people I used to see some hope for have been...set free(?) by the Equifax breech. It’s like the only thing left is a PIN code and a handful of passwords, most of which are reused or have only small variants from site to site. Not to confuse privacy with security but they’re both near and dear to me.

        2 votes
  5. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. Neverland
      Link Parent
      Yeah, while I value my privacy, I always assume anything I write online could be tied back to me in the end.

      Yeah, while I value my privacy, I always assume anything I write online could be tied back to me in the end.

      3 votes
  6. ZaphodBeebblebrox
    Link
    I am generally decently privacy contentious. The idea of people tracking me creeps me out somewhat. However, I do not have any particular issue with giving me country away because it is easy...

    I am generally decently privacy contentious. The idea of people tracking me creeps me out somewhat. However, I do not have any particular issue with giving me country away because it is easy enough for people to figure out what country someone is from through other things they comment on and about.

    4 votes
  7. dyslexda
    Link
    I'm relatively privacy conscious. I don't give out my name or explicitly identifying information. I've got all kinds of the browser extensions (PrivacyBadger, uBlock Origin, CanvasDefender, etc)....

    I'm relatively privacy conscious. I don't give out my name or explicitly identifying information. I've got all kinds of the browser extensions (PrivacyBadger, uBlock Origin, CanvasDefender, etc). But part of being active in communities that interest you is sharing your experiences. If you do that enough, you can start developing a pretty good profile on someone, potentially to the point that they can be doxxed.

    Any personal anecdote can be used as another data point on someone. Comment about your favorite game? Have a hometown sports team you follow? Maybe a city with its own message board? Probably some threads relating to your profession, too. There are only two ways to prevent that (to my knowledge): Be very careful what you post, to the point you can't engage in most community discussions, or regularly delete your account and start over. Otherwise, if your account is a couple years old, there are tools out there (like SnoopSnoo for reddit) that can build a creepily accurate profile on you.

    In short, I find it somewhat a losing battle. I don't advertise who I am, but it's really not difficult for an interested user to figure it out. As such, my general policy is to avoid posting anything I wouldn't tell my mother if pressed. Healthy? Maybe not, but it's the reality I work with.

    4 votes
  8. ourari
    (edited )
    Link
    That behaviour doesn't necessarily contradict your view. Privacy is about many things, including control. Reddit tracking you and doing who knows what with your information - including giving...

    Despite this, what I thought was fairly universal viewpoint, there have been several threads(like here and here) where people give out identifying information about themselves. This, combined with many people using their real names as their usernames or revealing their real names in the introduction threads, made me realize that this is not an ideal that we all share to the same extent.

    That behaviour doesn't necessarily contradict your view. Privacy is about many things, including control. Reddit tracking you and doing who knows what with your information - including giving governments or other businesses access - without your informed consent is entirely different than voluntarily and knowingly sharing personal information when, where, and with whom you want.

    People who choose to reveal their true identity or certain information about themselves can and probably do care about their privacy. When they make a trade off between the risks and the benefits of sharing personal information, they come to a different conclusion than you do.

    Everyone has a different threat model.

    Recommended reading:
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/07/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-mostly-and-love-my-threat-model/


    As for me, I share your reason for coming to Tildes. The stench of the rotting carcass of Reddit's former ideals has become too much to ignore. Still, if I want to change people's minds, I need to be where the people are. (Although I don't see myself ever rejoining Facebook.)

    I'm hoping I can help Tildes grow, and help it to be true to its current privacy goals, so that the Reddit privacy community can find a more welcoming and suitable home here. For now, I will continue to run r/europrivacy and other subreddits.

    4 votes
  9. ajar
    Link
    You might want to take a look at this thread discussing anonymity on ~. Especially the discussion in the comments. From what I can gather the dev is definitely going to add some anonymity systems...

    You might want to take a look at this thread discussing anonymity on ~. Especially the discussion in the comments.

    From what I can gather the dev is definitely going to add some anonymity systems and implement measures that would circumvent scraping as well. User history would be available only to some users and only for a limited time before being wiped from the database.

    3 votes
  10. zac
    Link
    I'm more privacy-conscious than the average person but my concerns are less about what I willingly contribute to the site and more about what happens after I contribute. So, generally: data...

    I'm more privacy-conscious than the average person but my concerns are less about what I willingly contribute to the site and more about what happens after I contribute. So, generally:

    data sharing
    Participating on ~ should not mean that my data can be lent, sold, or in any way distributed to other organizations/companies, whether that data is personal, anonymized, aggregated, etc.

    security
    Whatever data exists about me and my ~ account should be reasonably secured and not at-risk for breach or mishandling.

    face-value policies
    My and the community-at-large's interpretation of the privacy policy and terms should be shared by the organizing bodies involved in the project. That is to say, everyone should have a shared understanding of what/how data is being collected and used. No loopholes or legal/semantic workarounds.

    3 votes
  11. SaucedButLeaking
    Link
    I'm somewhat privacy-conscious, but I don't mind sharing my general location (which cities I'm near, what my occupation is) as a way of providing context. This handle is fairly new for me, at...

    I'm somewhat privacy-conscious, but I don't mind sharing my general location (which cities I'm near, what my occupation is) as a way of providing context. This handle is fairly new for me, at least in the discussion forum realm, so I don't think I've completely doxxed myself yet.

    3 votes
  12. eladnarra
    Link
    I debated using my current name specifically because I wasn't sure if I wanted to keep connecting my various online identities. It's not just what you share on one platform, it's the info people...

    I debated using my current name specifically because I wasn't sure if I wanted to keep connecting my various online identities. It's not just what you share on one platform, it's the info people can piece together from lots of different sites if they are motivated to do so. So privacy is on my mind, but familiarity won out. I want to be recognizable to people I know elsewhere and to feel like "me."

    I like tildes precisely because there's a fundamental level of privacy involved but it's up to a user how much they share. For me, the types of conversations I'm interested in having will inevitably build up a picture of who I am if anyone cares to look (although I won't be posting things like my exact location or real name). Future mechanics like anonymous posting or history wipes may enable more private users to feel more comfortable sharing, too.

    3 votes
  13. DonQuixote
    Link
    My view is that until technology changes (somehow in our favor,) privacy doesn't exist. Until we reach a degree of sophistication socially (as illustrated by the Eightfold Fence in the novel...

    My view is that until technology changes (somehow in our favor,) privacy doesn't exist. Until we reach a degree of sophistication socially (as illustrated by the Eightfold Fence in the novel Shogun) which may be never, each of us is at the mercy of technology as fake news gives way to fake identification and fake credentials.

    In the meantime, one might as well act as if every conversation and every post were available for everyone to see. And even then, actions seen as virtuous today could someday be considered barbaric. Those who hope for technological longevity particularly are vulnerable.

    2 votes