After reading the election thread, I don't personally see how admitting to being a Trump supporter would be productive for anyone on Tildes. Without citing specific comments, you'd just be copping...
After reading the election thread, I don't personally see how admitting to being a Trump supporter would be productive for anyone on Tildes. Without citing specific comments, you'd just be copping to being a bigot and racist a priori in eyes of folks here.
I want to just ... push a little bit on this, especially the a priori part. With all the stuff the Trump administration has said and done over the past four years, can we really argue that someone...
you'd just be copping to being a bigot and racist a priori
I want to just ... push a little bit on this, especially the a priori part. With all the stuff the Trump administration has said and done over the past four years, can we really argue that someone isn't at least okay with racism and bigotry if they support Trump? I do agree that admitting to supporting him wouldn't win you many friends on this site, but ... I don't know, it seems like leading with Trump support isn't the best way to win friends in like, real life either. At least in a lot of the country.
I think this bolsters my case, rather than pushes against it. When I say that people with assume you are a racist a priori, this is what I mean. We are talking about any given theoretical Trump...
I think this bolsters my case, rather than pushes against it. When I say that people with assume you are a racist a priori, this is what I mean. We are talking about any given theoretical Trump voter with zero other characteristics, and you have already constructed a theoretical framework for why this person is at least somewhat of a bigot.
I can only speak from my own experiences, but I know and am friends with Trump supporters. I also know and get along fine with friends' older relatives who are Trump supporters. The sense I get...
With all the stuff the Trump administration has said and done over the past four years, can we really argue that someone isn't at least okay with racism and bigotry if they support Trump?
I can only speak from my own experiences, but I know and am friends with Trump supporters. I also know and get along fine with friends' older relatives who are Trump supporters. The sense I get from most of them is that there is a general distrust toward the American political establishment, and they see Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and most Democrats and Republicans as part of that establishment, whereas Trump is an outsider. Some are so disillusioned with American politics, they thought maybe voting this wackjob in might actually change something. I never get the sense that they are motivated by racism -- even if that may be a hidden motive of theirs, it does not show in their argument for supporting Trump, and it also doesn't align with the fact that some of us are racial minorities.
Bernie also had similar appeal to these folk (please don't mistake this as me saying Bernie and Trump are similar). A good friend of mine told me Bernie was his first choice, but ultimately decided he was going to vote for Trump after Biden won the Democratic nomination. He is an educated person who is finishing his PhD in Computer Science. His choice is based on the belief that Trump would be better for the economy than Biden.
It's bad to villainize someone for voting for Trump (or anyone for that matter). It's also terrible to make assumptions that someone is a racist or is sympathetic to racist sentiment just because they cast a vote. This is something I see in my left-leaning friends that I wish would stop. I'll take it a step further and say it's even bad to assume someone is a bad person just because they seem racist. My great aunt -- who is not even that old, in her late 50s -- espouses some particularly racist ideas sometimes. And yet she still imparts some wisdom to me from time to time, and I know she loves her kids and grandkids, and I know she's a good person because I grew up with her. Humans aren't as one-dimensional as modern social media would like you to believe. I don't like that she might've voted for Trump, but I still would respect her decision if she did.
I don't think I would be a respectable adult if I automatically pigeon-holed people based on their political leanings, much like "left-wing" Twitter people do. Yes, I know right-wing folk do this too, but I'm pointing out left-wing people because I am left-wing and am frustrated by how out-of-touch my well-off, city-dwelling techie friends can be, who insist that the only reason Trump is president now is because of "all those racist white people in rural America".
Thanks for this. You're comment and this thread put into words some thoughts I've been wrestling with because I agree that from some other discussions on the internet, the initial knee-jerk of the...
Thanks for this. You're comment and this thread put into words some thoughts I've been wrestling with because I agree that from some other discussions on the internet, the initial knee-jerk of the vocal community would be to do exactly that. There is a bombardment of news on the Presidential election in the United States even from people far removed from that geolocation.
I am not a Trump supporter (or even an American). I agree with an above comment that even if I were, I would not say so freely online as it can (maybe rightfully) trigger a lot of the unavoidable emotions that political topics are interwoven with. What I know of the current state of US politics and Trump is from the media. From what I see, I find him distasteful and still do not know how he got to where he is now.
That said, I think even more important than the topic of Trump is the topic of information. Assuming all the information about Trump I have is true (and it may well not be), I can confirm his values only because of how the media shows me Trump acts. I can say the same of his supporters. "He supports Trump" is enough for a bad first impression - "oof this could be bad news" - but for us to label them a bigot and a racist with the only information we have from them firsthand being "I support Trump" is a disservice to the complexity of the human entity.
I am wary of painting people with the same brush on singular information because their beliefs and ideologies can be as far removed from my own as Pluto from the Sun. The fact remains that actions speak louder than words. Judging people on outward action is unavoidable but we do not end on judgement. We end with the knowledge that as humans, our judgement can always be proven wrong. And the only action anyone who potentially answers here has done so far is state their vote. While for some people this may be enough to go on I think it's important to first think of what information someone answering this thread has given us:
They took the time to vote
They took the time to (supposedly civilly) tell us all what their vote was
They are opening themselves up for us to potentially ask them questions why they did so in the aim of making conversation or something else, i'm not sure
Politicians talk, and governments rise and fall, and all we can do in the end is judge the person in front of us yes, but listen to them as well. They are not Trump. They are just someone on the internet who would like to say something. Now where the conversation goes after that is anyone’s guess and they may well reinforce whatever beliefs we may have of a Trump supporter but all labels are dangerous if any single one is used to generalize a human whole.
I guess I'm hoping that from what I've seen shared on tildes there are people all over the world with the capacity to handle delicate topics delicately - much more so than I can. So if this thread was made with good intentions, I hope it can be a good jumping off point for conversations that maybe should be had and information I would not otherwise know or understand.
This is where I keep getting tripped up. My immediate family voted for Trump, and I know from talking with them that they are not well informed. They take a generally very passive stance toward...
and informed decision that "[x issue] is more important to me
This is where I keep getting tripped up. My immediate family voted for Trump, and I know from talking with them that they are not well informed. They take a generally very passive stance toward politics, in the sense that they don't seek out political information. They absorb it from people around them, broadcast news, and local newspaper websites. My brother is the one I've had the most productive conversations with, explaining why I believe certain things about healthcare and immigration. His reaction is one of interest, but also of "I've never thought about that" or "I've never heard of that idea".
So I cling to the perhaps naive idea that if I can just give them enough information, they will change their mind on some policy ideas.
Me as well. It's easy for me to say typing between shifts while sipping my drink before bed. I typed it but I'm 100% certain I've made snap judgements in fear and worry for the future. I'm sure I...
Me as well. It's easy for me to say typing between shifts while sipping my drink before bed. I typed it but I'm 100% certain I've made snap judgements in fear and worry for the future. I'm sure I make them everyday haha.
I think it just shows that something in the system has to change if we can no longer properly represent our values with what is available now. In the last election of my country I often wished there was an ideal "third option" but we are rarely ever so lucky. Computers have proven that a binary value can mean a billion different things, and I guess i felt its still worth saying because myself and a lot of people I know and love can be judged and labelled quite quickly and absolutely (and I'm not just talking of politics) but if it makes even one person (including myself) think twice on it one time, it seems worth it to say.
Here's a toast to you and I hoping we both live long enough to live the ideal at least some time in our lives.
I think the common framing would be "[The rights of all of my neighbors] is more important to me than the rights of my immigrant, LGBTQ, poor, and non-white neighbors"
I think the common framing would be "[The rights of all of my neighbors] is more important to me than the rights of my immigrant, LGBTQ, poor, and non-white neighbors"
Yep. @deimos, up to you of course, but I'm highly suspicious of this thread having any relevant conversation or doing anything more than harassing people.
Yep.
@deimos, up to you of course, but I'm highly suspicious of this thread having any relevant conversation or doing anything more than harassing people.
I don't think it makes sense to call this a non-confrontational setting. I mean you were nice but you've already answered the question you asked when you suggested that a Trump vote could be meant...
I don't think it makes sense to call this a non-confrontational setting. I mean you were nice but you've already answered the question you asked when you suggested that a Trump vote could be meant to protect themselves, their loved ones, and the country. What else is there to the topic besides a call to "reveal and explain yourselves"?
I can only speak for my mother but the main friction points seem to be: abortion opposition to another lockdown (mostly on economic grounds) fear that Biden/the Democrats won't crack down on...
I can only speak for my mother but the main friction points seem to be:
abortion
opposition to another lockdown (mostly on economic grounds)
fear that Biden/the Democrats won't crack down on riots/looting (I think this is probably the most important one)
vague disdain for/mistrust of the intellectual elite that comprise the media & universities, who seem to near universally support Biden
Do many people support actual riots? I thought leftists were generally more concerned about police cracking down on "riots" or otherwise instigating violence? I would assume some view them as...
Do many people support actual riots? I thought leftists were generally more concerned about police cracking down on "riots" or otherwise instigating violence? I would assume some view them as justified class warfare or something but isn't that a fairly fringe position?
I think anyone advocating for violence or riots should be considered fringe. That said, I think one of the key differences between left and right on this issue is the right sees the violence as...
I think anyone advocating for violence or riots should be considered fringe.
That said, I think one of the key differences between left and right on this issue is the right sees the violence as the actual problem. They dispute the legitimacy of the reasons people are giving for the rioting, and in turn view the violence as unjustified. So the solution is to squash the violence to get people "back in line".
Whereas the left seems more inclined to believe the reasons people are using to justify the violence, and view the violence as a symptom. The objective then becoming try mitigating the violence as much as possible while focusing on treating the problem that led people to start burning buildings.
Rioting, vandalism, and violence are wrong. I don’t know many leftists that would say these things should be sanctioned. The crux of the issue though is that these things are happening for a...
Rioting, vandalism, and violence are wrong. I don’t know many leftists that would say these things should be sanctioned. The crux of the issue though is that these things are happening for a reason. That reason needs to be addressed and simply arresting the rioters and sweeping it under the rug, as conservatives seem want to do, is not the correct course of action here.
I'm going to agree with the people saying that this will not go well (and I can already see some signs of it starting). I understand what you were going for, but this isn't a good idea. I've...
I'm going to agree with the people saying that this will not go well (and I can already see some signs of it starting). I understand what you were going for, but this isn't a good idea. I've locked and removed it.
I voted for Jo Jorgensen and party line Republican for everything else. But everyone I know voted Trump. (I may regret posting this and delete it later.) I am not a libertarian, but fall into a...
I voted for Jo Jorgensen and party line Republican for everything else. But everyone I know voted Trump. (I may regret posting this and delete it later.) I am not a libertarian, but fall into a social constructivist conservative category, however, i know theonomists, libertarians, principled conservatives, and pro-Trumpers, as well as a lot of single issue voters.
He eventually got banned, I think I remember why and the fact is that if you live in that reality that Trump is fit to be president, you simply will encounter complete shock at one point or...
He eventually got banned, I think I remember why and the fact is that if you live in that reality that Trump is fit to be president, you simply will encounter complete shock at one point or another simply coexisting with on majority-progressive multicultural site where we regularly discuss politics.
I know we have a few more libertarians here who believe either that anything short of a clone of themselves is not worth voting for, or who don't mind watching the country burn (and frankly, much like rooting for the night king in season 8, I might disagree but I'm starting to understand the sentiment).
Eh, I can't keep up a roleplay for even one reply. I did not vote for Trump, in fact I am an enthusiastic constituent of AOC's and I share the sentiment of most of the comments in the thread that...
Eh, I can't keep up a roleplay for even one reply. I did not vote for Trump, in fact I am an enthusiastic constituent of AOC's and I share the sentiment of most of the comments in the thread that the thread is probably not a good idea. I started to compose a response to you, then I thought I would just rephrase u/turtle's mother's complaints, but then I realized I don't have a point to make by doing so -- especially given that we do not yet know the outcome of the election. It is, I think, telling and concerning that we are still wondering "what are they even thinking?" and seemingly hoping that someone might just render their opinions up for evaluation.
After reading the election thread, I don't personally see how admitting to being a Trump supporter would be productive for anyone on Tildes. Without citing specific comments, you'd just be copping to being a bigot and racist a priori in eyes of folks here.
I want to just ... push a little bit on this, especially the a priori part. With all the stuff the Trump administration has said and done over the past four years, can we really argue that someone isn't at least okay with racism and bigotry if they support Trump? I do agree that admitting to supporting him wouldn't win you many friends on this site, but ... I don't know, it seems like leading with Trump support isn't the best way to win friends in like, real life either. At least in a lot of the country.
I think this bolsters my case, rather than pushes against it. When I say that people with assume you are a racist a priori, this is what I mean. We are talking about any given theoretical Trump voter with zero other characteristics, and you have already constructed a theoretical framework for why this person is at least somewhat of a bigot.
That's exactly what an a priori argument entails.
I can only speak from my own experiences, but I know and am friends with Trump supporters. I also know and get along fine with friends' older relatives who are Trump supporters. The sense I get from most of them is that there is a general distrust toward the American political establishment, and they see Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and most Democrats and Republicans as part of that establishment, whereas Trump is an outsider. Some are so disillusioned with American politics, they thought maybe voting this wackjob in might actually change something. I never get the sense that they are motivated by racism -- even if that may be a hidden motive of theirs, it does not show in their argument for supporting Trump, and it also doesn't align with the fact that some of us are racial minorities.
Bernie also had similar appeal to these folk (please don't mistake this as me saying Bernie and Trump are similar). A good friend of mine told me Bernie was his first choice, but ultimately decided he was going to vote for Trump after Biden won the Democratic nomination. He is an educated person who is finishing his PhD in Computer Science. His choice is based on the belief that Trump would be better for the economy than Biden.
It's bad to villainize someone for voting for Trump (or anyone for that matter). It's also terrible to make assumptions that someone is a racist or is sympathetic to racist sentiment just because they cast a vote. This is something I see in my left-leaning friends that I wish would stop. I'll take it a step further and say it's even bad to assume someone is a bad person just because they seem racist. My great aunt -- who is not even that old, in her late 50s -- espouses some particularly racist ideas sometimes. And yet she still imparts some wisdom to me from time to time, and I know she loves her kids and grandkids, and I know she's a good person because I grew up with her. Humans aren't as one-dimensional as modern social media would like you to believe. I don't like that she might've voted for Trump, but I still would respect her decision if she did.
I don't think I would be a respectable adult if I automatically pigeon-holed people based on their political leanings, much like "left-wing" Twitter people do. Yes, I know right-wing folk do this too, but I'm pointing out left-wing people because I am left-wing and am frustrated by how out-of-touch my well-off, city-dwelling techie friends can be, who insist that the only reason Trump is president now is because of "all those racist white people in rural America".
Thanks for this. You're comment and this thread put into words some thoughts I've been wrestling with because I agree that from some other discussions on the internet, the initial knee-jerk of the vocal community would be to do exactly that. There is a bombardment of news on the Presidential election in the United States even from people far removed from that geolocation.
I am not a Trump supporter (or even an American). I agree with an above comment that even if I were, I would not say so freely online as it can (maybe rightfully) trigger a lot of the unavoidable emotions that political topics are interwoven with. What I know of the current state of US politics and Trump is from the media. From what I see, I find him distasteful and still do not know how he got to where he is now.
That said, I think even more important than the topic of Trump is the topic of information. Assuming all the information about Trump I have is true (and it may well not be), I can confirm his values only because of how the media shows me Trump acts. I can say the same of his supporters. "He supports Trump" is enough for a bad first impression - "oof this could be bad news" - but for us to label them a bigot and a racist with the only information we have from them firsthand being "I support Trump" is a disservice to the complexity of the human entity.
I am wary of painting people with the same brush on singular information because their beliefs and ideologies can be as far removed from my own as Pluto from the Sun. The fact remains that actions speak louder than words. Judging people on outward action is unavoidable but we do not end on judgement. We end with the knowledge that as humans, our judgement can always be proven wrong. And the only action anyone who potentially answers here has done so far is state their vote. While for some people this may be enough to go on I think it's important to first think of what information someone answering this thread has given us:
Politicians talk, and governments rise and fall, and all we can do in the end is judge the person in front of us yes, but listen to them as well. They are not Trump. They are just someone on the internet who would like to say something. Now where the conversation goes after that is anyone’s guess and they may well reinforce whatever beliefs we may have of a Trump supporter but all labels are dangerous if any single one is used to generalize a human whole.
I guess I'm hoping that from what I've seen shared on tildes there are people all over the world with the capacity to handle delicate topics delicately - much more so than I can. So if this thread was made with good intentions, I hope it can be a good jumping off point for conversations that maybe should be had and information I would not otherwise know or understand.
This is where I keep getting tripped up. My immediate family voted for Trump, and I know from talking with them that they are not well informed. They take a generally very passive stance toward politics, in the sense that they don't seek out political information. They absorb it from people around them, broadcast news, and local newspaper websites. My brother is the one I've had the most productive conversations with, explaining why I believe certain things about healthcare and immigration. His reaction is one of interest, but also of "I've never thought about that" or "I've never heard of that idea".
So I cling to the perhaps naive idea that if I can just give them enough information, they will change their mind on some policy ideas.
Me as well. It's easy for me to say typing between shifts while sipping my drink before bed. I typed it but I'm 100% certain I've made snap judgements in fear and worry for the future. I'm sure I make them everyday haha.
I think it just shows that something in the system has to change if we can no longer properly represent our values with what is available now. In the last election of my country I often wished there was an ideal "third option" but we are rarely ever so lucky. Computers have proven that a binary value can mean a billion different things, and I guess i felt its still worth saying because myself and a lot of people I know and love can be judged and labelled quite quickly and absolutely (and I'm not just talking of politics) but if it makes even one person (including myself) think twice on it one time, it seems worth it to say.
Here's a toast to you and I hoping we both live long enough to live the ideal at least some time in our lives.
I think the common framing would be "[The rights of all of my neighbors] is more important to me than the rights of my immigrant, LGBTQ, poor, and non-white neighbors"
This title feels like a witch hunt. This is not ok. This is not constructive.
Yep.
@deimos, up to you of course, but I'm highly suspicious of this thread having any relevant conversation or doing anything more than harassing people.
I share the sentiment but nonproductive is a pretty silly thread tag and so is the nicely contracted "witchunt"
I don't think it makes sense to call this a non-confrontational setting. I mean you were nice but you've already answered the question you asked when you suggested that a Trump vote could be meant to protect themselves, their loved ones, and the country. What else is there to the topic besides a call to "reveal and explain yourselves"?
I can only speak for my mother but the main friction points seem to be:
Do many people support actual riots? I thought leftists were generally more concerned about police cracking down on "riots" or otherwise instigating violence? I would assume some view them as justified class warfare or something but isn't that a fairly fringe position?
I think anyone advocating for violence or riots should be considered fringe.
That said, I think one of the key differences between left and right on this issue is the right sees the violence as the actual problem. They dispute the legitimacy of the reasons people are giving for the rioting, and in turn view the violence as unjustified. So the solution is to squash the violence to get people "back in line".
Whereas the left seems more inclined to believe the reasons people are using to justify the violence, and view the violence as a symptom. The objective then becoming try mitigating the violence as much as possible while focusing on treating the problem that led people to start burning buildings.
Rioting, vandalism, and violence are wrong. I don’t know many leftists that would say these things should be sanctioned. The crux of the issue though is that these things are happening for a reason. That reason needs to be addressed and simply arresting the rioters and sweeping it under the rug, as conservatives seem want to do, is not the correct course of action here.
To add a little color to this view point. The president often was tweeting out Law & Order just that. Multiple times a week.
I'm going to agree with the people saying that this will not go well (and I can already see some signs of it starting). I understand what you were going for, but this isn't a good idea. I've locked and removed it.
I voted for Jo Jorgensen and party line Republican for everything else. But everyone I know voted Trump. (I may regret posting this and delete it later.) I am not a libertarian, but fall into a social constructivist conservative category, however, i know theonomists, libertarians, principled conservatives, and pro-Trumpers, as well as a lot of single issue voters.
This guy supports him but hasn't been active in Tildes for a while.
He eventually got banned, I think I remember why and the fact is that if you live in that reality that Trump is fit to be president, you simply will encounter complete shock at one point or another simply coexisting with on majority-progressive multicultural site where we regularly discuss politics.
I know we have a few more libertarians here who believe either that anything short of a clone of themselves is not worth voting for, or who don't mind watching the country burn (and frankly, much like rooting for the night king in season 8, I might disagree but I'm starting to understand the sentiment).
The first ban was goldbug, right?
It was Redacted.
Also, it's goldf1sh, but I like the Richard Scarry reference with goldbug.
I voted for Trump. I think he tells it like it is and I can't stand the impotent tyranny of the left. Why do you ask?
I don’t know why they asked, but maybe you could expand on “tells it like it is?” What are examples of things Trump said that are important to you?
Eh, I can't keep up a roleplay for even one reply. I did not vote for Trump, in fact I am an enthusiastic constituent of AOC's and I share the sentiment of most of the comments in the thread that the thread is probably not a good idea. I started to compose a response to you, then I thought I would just rephrase u/turtle's mother's complaints, but then I realized I don't have a point to make by doing so -- especially given that we do not yet know the outcome of the election. It is, I think, telling and concerning that we are still wondering "what are they even thinking?" and seemingly hoping that someone might just render their opinions up for evaluation.
Do you consider Trump the lesser of two evils?