13 votes

Email sucks

52 comments

  1. [16]
    Akir
    Link
    Email will never go away. Period. First off, email is the lowest common denominator. Everyone has it; it's ubiquitous. I find it funny that the author keeps bringing up Bitmessage because not only...

    Email will never go away. Period.

    First off, email is the lowest common denominator. Everyone has it; it's ubiquitous. I find it funny that the author keeps bringing up Bitmessage because not only does nobody I know use it, but this is literally the first time I've ever heard of it. From this perspective, Facebook is a much better replacement for email than Bitmessage.

    Secondly, Email is more than messages. Socially, it's your identity. Why else would every website ever ask you to use your email address to verify that you're a real person - especially when it's so easy to set up a new email account for free?

    And finally, it has a pretty high degree of government support. Most government agencies will only contact you in two ways: snail mail and email. Sure, more of them are reaching out to SMS messages now, but that tends to be on a very limited basis.


    Yes, the author is completely right about email being insecure, and I wish there was an easy solution for that. But for the meanwhile, I'm not too worried about the lack of security on emails; I don't get or send any emails with private information on them, and people should ideally already know that it's not secure.

    And the truth of the matter is that I agree with basically every criticism of email. It should be better in a lot of respects. But it's useless to complain unless you're actually in a position to change things, and no alternative will ever be as adopted as thoroughly as email is.

    29 votes
    1. [12]
      joplin
      Link Parent
      Last time I tried to set up an anonymous free email account I had to enter a phone number that could accept SMS messages and a "backup" email account in case I forgot my password. I eventually...

      especially when it's so easy to set up a new email account for free?

      Last time I tried to set up an anonymous free email account I had to enter a phone number that could accept SMS messages and a "backup" email account in case I forgot my password. I eventually found a provider that allowed me to create an account without that, but it was an ad-filled site that seemed really questionable. Are there legit email providers where you don't have to provide some sort of other account to get a new account with them?

      3 votes
      1. [3]
        bloup
        Link Parent
        You can make an account on https://sdf.org/ and get access to a very basic email service. You literally do not need to provide any personal information to set up an account on SDF if you do it...

        You can make an account on https://sdf.org/ and get access to a very basic email service. You literally do not need to provide any personal information to set up an account on SDF if you do it over SSH (they have a webclient for SSH, too, if you aren't familiar with SSH). They'll ask for some basic info during the account set up process, but how you fill it out is really up to you. The only catch is you do need to mail them a dollar along with the name of your account as a validation mechanism. Alternatively, send me pm and I can validate you manually.

        There's also the tildeverse which is a lot like the SDF in a lot of ways, but newer and maybe less crusty. Although, I will say the SDF is more formally organized, charges money for various services, and has been around since 1987 so personally I have a little more confidence in the SDF's ability to continually exist.

        7 votes
        1. [2]
          Bauke
          Link Parent
          This is off-topic but I noticed that the SDF website's copyright notice says ©1987-2065, do you (or anyone, really) know what that's about?

          This is off-topic but I noticed that the SDF website's copyright notice says ©1987-2065, do you (or anyone, really) know what that's about?

          2 votes
          1. Akir
            Link Parent
            I would like to think it's a Macross reference, but it's more than likely just a software bug.

            I would like to think it's a Macross reference, but it's more than likely just a software bug.

            3 votes
      2. [3]
        kfwyre
        Link Parent
        I haven't used it so I can't personally vouch for it, but Firefox Relay might be the kind of thing you're looking for.

        I haven't used it so I can't personally vouch for it, but Firefox Relay might be the kind of thing you're looking for.

        5 votes
        1. [2]
          joplin
          Link Parent
          Oh yeah! I heard about that. That looks great! Will definitely try it next time I have the need.

          Oh yeah! I heard about that. That looks great! Will definitely try it next time I have the need.

          4 votes
          1. netstx
            Link Parent
            It's prety awesome, except I wish you could use more than 5 relays.

            It's prety awesome, except I wish you could use more than 5 relays.

            3 votes
      3. [3]
        snazz
        Link Parent
        It's definitely still possible to create a new Google Account with no phone number or backup email account, although it will bug you with messages like "add a phone number so that you don't get...

        It's definitely still possible to create a new Google Account with no phone number or backup email account, although it will bug you with messages like "add a phone number so that you don't get locked out" whenever you sign into your account. There are certainly some dark patterns to try to get you to give them a phone number, but plenty of kids sign up for their first email accounts with Google and have no trouble, despite not having another email or a phone.

        3 votes
        1. joplin
          Link Parent
          Hmm... OK. I could have sworn I was required to give a phone number when I tried. But maybe I'm remembering wrong? Good to know, then!

          Hmm... OK. I could have sworn I was required to give a phone number when I tried. But maybe I'm remembering wrong? Good to know, then!

          1 vote
        2. skybrian
          Link Parent
          Getting locked out is a real risk, and one that creeps up on you, as you start with an account you don't care about and use it more and more over the years. I hope they're printing out backup...

          Getting locked out is a real risk, and one that creeps up on you, as you start with an account you don't care about and use it more and more over the years.

          I hope they're printing out backup codes and have a safe place to keep them.

          1 vote
      4. [2]
        j3n
        Link Parent
        I just tried it, and outlook.com works just fine without anything more painful than a captcha... Who did you try?

        I just tried it, and outlook.com works just fine without anything more painful than a captcha... Who did you try?

        1. joplin
          Link Parent
          Really? When I tried it, it wouldn't allow me to do anything without entering an SMS-capable number. Maybe it's changed since then? Or maybe my private browsing set off some sort of "scam" detection?

          Really? When I tried it, it wouldn't allow me to do anything without entering an SMS-capable number. Maybe it's changed since then? Or maybe my private browsing set off some sort of "scam" detection?

    2. [2]
      CavesUnderscore
      Link Parent
      I have to disagree- you can find Google, Facebook, and Microsoft login buttons on pretty much every website that offers a login (except for privacy focused sites). Those services are more than...

      no alternative will ever be accepted as thoroughly as email is.

      I have to disagree- you can find Google, Facebook, and Microsoft login buttons on pretty much every website that offers a login (except for privacy focused sites). Those services are more than just email in the case of Google and Microsoft. In fact, Facebook doesn't even provide email. So it should be technically possible (at least in the future) to add a Matrix sign in button or other alternative to Email and the big 3.

      2 votes
      1. Akir
        Link Parent
        Except, as far as I am aware, all of those provide your email to the services you log in with. So it's not a replacement, it's a supplement.

        Except, as far as I am aware, all of those provide your email to the services you log in with. So it's not a replacement, it's a supplement.

        3 votes
    3. FantasyCookie17
      Link Parent
      My hope was that it can be replaced slowly, gradually, if more people start adopting solutions. Make sure to read my follow-up post - I2P Bote might be better than Bitmessage.

      My hope was that it can be replaced slowly, gradually, if more people start adopting solutions. Make sure to read my follow-up post - I2P Bote might be better than Bitmessage.

      1 vote
  2. [4]
    drannex
    (edited )
    Link
    Counter: I love email, prefer email, and the fact that it is the only decentralized communication protocol that has (will?) ever take hold is phenomenal. Yes it has security reliability issues...

    Counter: I love email, prefer email, and the fact that it is the only decentralized communication protocol that has (will?) ever take hold is phenomenal.

    Yes it has security reliability issues when you roll your own, but that is quickly changing with new solutions and out of the box server installations and growing use of LetsEncrypt for SSL and DKIM DNS protections. Email is good, always will be good, and will be the far superior communication platform tool till the end of our days.

    18 votes
    1. freddy
      Link Parent
      I've published my personal thoughts on email, just submitting this for the sake of discussion. It's always interesting to hear other's opinions.

      I've published my personal thoughts on email, just submitting this for the sake of discussion. It's always interesting to hear other's opinions.

      4 votes
    2. lionirdeadman
      Link Parent
      Counter-counter: Matrix.org and Mastodon have taken more and more space in the tech space and it's been going in various organisations such as governments or institutions. This does stop accept...

      Counter: I love email, prefer email, and the fact that it is the only decentralized communication protocol that has (will?) ever take hold is phenomenal.

      Counter-counter: Matrix.org and Mastodon have taken more and more space in the tech space and it's been going in various organisations such as governments or institutions.

      Yes it has security reliability issues when you roll your own, but that is quickly changing with new solutions and out of the box server installations and growing use of LetsEncrypt for SSL and DKIM DNS protections.

      This does stop accept while transit but it's not going to make this data unreadable to the server by any means at all which is arguably the biggest problem imo.

      2 votes
    3. FantasyCookie17
      Link Parent
      I actually wanted to set up iRedMail, but as stated in the article, I couldn't, because I don't control my PTR records…

      I actually wanted to set up iRedMail, but as stated in the article, I couldn't, because I don't control my PTR records…

      1 vote
  3. [5]
    FantasyCookie17
    Link
    So, I'm the author of the post, and I got an invite from freddy. I'll try to respond to some of the comments here. Note that, as he already mentioned, I wrote a follow-up.

    So, I'm the author of the post, and I got an invite from freddy. I'll try to respond to some of the comments here. Note that, as he already mentioned, I wrote a follow-up.

    13 votes
    1. freddy
      Link Parent
      Welcome to Tildes!

      Welcome to Tildes!

      7 votes
    2. [3]
      mxuribe
      Link Parent
      Welcome! Also, kudos for publishing that follow-up piece! I do have a question for you: While i'm not as familiar with Bitmessage, do you believe that it facilitates what i would consider more...

      Welcome! Also, kudos for publishing that follow-up piece!

      I do have a question for you: While i'm not as familiar with Bitmessage, do you believe that it facilitates what i would consider more formalized (maybe long-form) messaging like email has historically? For example, email has a subject line, plus while there's nothing stopping someone from sending short emails, historically email has been akin to more formal, and yes, longer-form memos...while i (and others) sort of consider other messaging platforms less formal, and hence don't things like subject lines, etc. So...do you believe Bitmessage (or the like) would continue more formalized (maybe long-form) messaging as email has historically? I'm curious about your thoughts around this.

      4 votes
      1. [2]
        FantasyCookie17
        Link Parent
        I think it does, as, like I2P Bote, it was designed as an email replacement… Anyway, as my follow-up stated, I2P Bote is basically just as good for security and privacy, while not needing that...

        I think it does, as, like I2P Bote, it was designed as an email replacement… Anyway, as my follow-up stated, I2P Bote is basically just as good for security and privacy, while not needing that insane amount of bandwidth.

        3 votes
        1. mxuribe
          Link Parent
          Thanks for your comments! Also, my bad...when i read both your posts, i failed to click through on the link to I2P-Bote (I think i focused too much on the blockchain angle and not enough on the...

          Thanks for your comments! Also, my bad...when i read both your posts, i failed to click through on the link to I2P-Bote (I think i focused too much on the blockchain angle and not enough on the email aspect), so of course failed to read the I2P Bote features for email replacement. Quite interesting; and thanks again!

          2 votes
  4. [7]
    Toric
    Link
    Unfortunately, all the things that are trying to replace it, (SMS, facebook messenger, discord, teams, etc.) are about as freedom-respecting as the Chinese government. None of them are...

    Unfortunately, all the things that are trying to replace it, (SMS, facebook messenger, discord, teams, etc.) are about as freedom-respecting as the Chinese government.
    None of them are decentralized. You cant self host any of them.
    All of them are controlled by a single company or a small set of companies.
    None of those companies have a good privacy record.

    11 votes
    1. FantasyCookie17
      Link Parent
      Which is why I tried to suggest good alternatives, and none like these.

      Which is why I tried to suggest good alternatives, and none like these.

      2 votes
    2. weystrom
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      There are plenty of things you could self-host though: Mattermost, Element (Matrix), OwnCloud. The problem is that nobody wants to deal with the issues of self-hosting, business-wise it's makes...

      There are plenty of things you could self-host though: Mattermost, Element (Matrix), OwnCloud.
      The problem is that nobody wants to deal with the issues of self-hosting, business-wise it's makes much more sense to go full SaaS.

      1 vote
    3. [4]
      hook
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      (was prove wrong, I apologise)

      Also, interesting tidbit of information: SMS is based on the e-mail protocol :D (was prove wrong, I apologise)

      1. [3]
        senko
        Link Parent
        While there are a lot of email-SMS gateways, it's not based on email (MMS might be more inspired by it, though a quick web search didn't find the link). SMS was designed to use spare signalling...

        While there are a lot of email-SMS gateways, it's not based on email (MMS might be more inspired by it, though a quick web search didn't find the link).

        SMS was designed to use spare signalling capacity in cellular network, when people noticed that short instant messages might be useful (size determined from postcard/telegram analysis). It used 140 bytes specially encoded so they could carry up to 160 characters in one of a few coding pages.

        Another fun fact, Twitter's original 140 character limit was to allow use via SMS (with 20 chars reserved for person's handle in DMs).

        6 votes
        1. NaraVara
          Link Parent
          I miss when Twitter was functionally just the "Current Status" bar in AIM as a standalone service. I kind of wish that the company focused on being some kind of mass market Identity as a Service...

          Another fun fact, Twitter's original 140 character limit was to allow use via SMS (with 20 chars reserved for person's handle in DMs).

          I miss when Twitter was functionally just the "Current Status" bar in AIM as a standalone service. I kind of wish that the company focused on being some kind of mass market Identity as a Service platform to work as a sort of universal login instead of the ersatz blogging platform it turned into. It's something the internet really could have benefitted from, and would have allowed Twitter to work as a functional alternative to Facebook by enabling a federated network of interlinked blogs and multiple different kinds of social media sites.

          I mean, they could even have built some of those modules for blogging or photo sharing or whatever too, just making it interoperable with others. Alas, what could have been.

          4 votes
        2. hook
          Link Parent
          Damn, you are correct. I apologise for spreading false info. I swear, I remember seeing a presentation about the history of e-mail protocol and there they also in short discussed how SMS are...

          Damn, you are correct. I apologise for spreading false info.

          I swear, I remember seeing a presentation about the history of e-mail protocol and there they also in short discussed how SMS are (loosely) based on the e-mail protocol as well, showing different similarities. But that was years ago and I can’t find it anymore, so it seems I either misremembered or the presentation overstated the (few?) similarities.

          As a return favour, I can confirm that this is my memory of the Twitter reason as well.

          1 vote
  5. [9]
    mftrhu
    Link
    E-mail might suck, but this particular alternative the author proposes would be even worse. BitMessage might promise and deliver all sort of features, but last I checked it (1) didn't work on...

    TL;DR: Email is too complex and insecure. Try to get everyone to adopt BitMessage or comparable.

    E-mail might suck, but this particular alternative the author proposes would be even worse. BitMessage might promise and deliver all sort of features, but last I checked it (1) didn't work on mobile (it might have had some sort of Android app, but if it's the one I remember then it just about destroys your battery) and (2) required you to download all the messages going through the network to get those addressed to you, which again means it doesn't work on mobile (I might have plenty of data, but cheap 30+ GB/month plans are not exactly common worldwide).

    Matrix, on the other hand, could be a decent alternative if not for the inertia e-mail has.

    8 votes
    1. [8]
      pallas
      Link Parent
      Matrix is an instant messaging system. As much as some people prefer instant messaging for their communication, it isn't at all a suitable replacement for email used as a non-instant-messaging...

      Matrix, on the other hand, could be a decent alternative if not for the inertia e-mail has.

      Matrix is an instant messaging system. As much as some people prefer instant messaging for their communication, it isn't at all a suitable replacement for email used as a non-instant-messaging system. The interface, and system, is strongly tailored toward conversations via short and informal messages, and against long and carefully-written letter-like messages. Organization takes a room-first, rather than message-first, approach; there's no reasonable threading other than rooms (creating a semi-permanent room for each new topic of discussion is not reasonable); there's no way to write and save drafts other than using an external editor; message storage is largely online and not necessarily accessible offline or many years from now; and so on.

      On the other hand, BitMessage seems like a horrible and ridiculous cryptocurrency-cult abomination, and recommending its use seems outright irresponsible.

      8 votes
      1. [3]
        mxuribe
        Link Parent
        Let me state right away that i'm biased in favor of matrix (the protocol), or rather, i'm optimistic that matrix will be the future for many communication use-cases...including maybe even...

        Let me state right away that i'm biased in favor of matrix (the protocol), or rather, i'm optimistic that matrix will be the future for many communication use-cases...including maybe even replacing some/most usage of email. To your point about the interface, currently that is only because the main use-case for matrix has been via clients for chat...but reading on matrix.org, they clearly state that chat is by no means the only use for the protocol; it is intended for many more use-cases. Also, there's nothing stopping anyone from creating a new client that "behaves" more like an email client in that the rooms become "message threads" - some with your messages with a single recipient, and others with multiple recipients. You're correct that current matrix clients do not display messages "message-first", and only currently displaying them "room-first". While the protocol is designed with "room-first", there's nothing stopping a developer from at least attempting to/playing around with providing an alternative display such as "message-grouped". It would be an interesting experiment for matrix. Also, the drafts concept - if i'm not mistaken - is technically not part of the smtp, imap, mail protocols...but rather a function of an email client. And that being the case, there's nothing stopping a developer to build in similar "draft features into a future matrix client.

        I'll add that matrix is still in early days, and i really believe that it still needs evolving...but i'm a believer in its flexible nature, and that it can provide a neat, decentralized, self-hostable, secure messaging offering for numerous use-cases.
        (To clarify: I am not at all affiliated with matrix project nor any of the Element organization, etc. I'm really jjust a big fan of matrix both the protocol and the folks at matrix.org, and the folks who have been builkding the protocol, the numrous apps, etc.)

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          pallas
          Link Parent
          The potential problem with this argument is that I can remember the same arguments being made about XMPP many years ago, and yet here we are, 20 years later, and those hypothetical clients and...

          I'll add that matrix is still in early days, and i really believe that it still needs evolving...but i'm a believer in its flexible nature, and that it can provide a neat, decentralized, self-hostable, secure messaging offering for numerous use-cases.

          The potential problem with this argument is that I can remember the same arguments being made about XMPP many years ago, and yet here we are, 20 years later, and those hypothetical clients and interfaces outside of the instant-messaging paradigm never seemed to develop.

          In part, my frustration about this is that people have been criticizing email on these points for decades, while pointing to protocols that could hypothetically become alternatives, but never do. Meanwhile, email continues to stagnate.

          2 votes
          1. mxuribe
            Link Parent
            As you noted about XMPP, you'e not wrong there. I certainly liked XMPP; though i loved it even more when i could connct gchat through it. (I was never a superfan of GChat, but i didn't mind using...

            As you noted about XMPP, you'e not wrong there. I certainly liked XMPP; though i loved it even more when i could connct gchat through it. (I was never a superfan of GChat, but i didn't mind using it via xmpp...once Google killed that, i never went back to gchat, and unfortunately never used xmpp again - my bad there for not helping at least keep xmpp more active than it is currently; though i know it is not dead.)

            ...email continues to stagnate...
            You're not wrong here either. Maybe I'm unrealistically hopeful, i don't know. But if feels like so many users - young and old - seem to be flocking towards chat-like platforms AND interfaces/UIs nowadays, that i'm thinking the matrix project's approach to use chat as the first (but not only) foray isn't such a bad idea. It of course remains to be seen what happens.

      2. [3]
        mftrhu
        Link Parent
        And e-mail proper is hardly used for long, carefully-written letter-like messages. Right now, I have some fifty messages in my inbox: most of those are miscellaneous notifications telling me I...

        The interface, and system, is strongly tailored toward conversations via short and informal messages, and against long and carefully-written letter-like messages.

        And e-mail proper is hardly used for long, carefully-written letter-like messages. Right now, I have some fifty messages in my inbox: most of those are miscellaneous notifications telling me I logged in somewhere or did something, followed by a handful of more long-form newsletters I hardly ever read, followed by a couple of "newsletters" that boil down to a headline, a short blurb, and a link to the actual article.

        Now, maybe there are some people who are actually using e-mail as their primary mode of communication, but I know I don't, and probably neither does the majority of e-mail users: most of my long-form messages in the last years have been introductory ones - e.g., reaching out to a law firm or a doctor - as after that communication moved to IM & phone, with a smattering of e-mails that only served as TL;DRs for the attached files.

        Organization takes a room-first, rather than message-first, approach; there's no reasonable threading other than rooms (creating a semi-permanent room for each new topic of discussion is not reasonable); there's no way to write and save drafts other than using an external editor; message storage is largely online and not necessarily accessible offline or many years from now; and so on.

        Also, you are mostly talking about the features, or lack thereof, of some Matrix clients: Riot might not have a way to write and save drafts*, it might not be geared towards threaded conversation, and it might not allow you to explicitly sync messages while offline, but that's only a single client implementation of the Matrix protocol.

        It wouldn't be a perfect, one-to-one replacement for e-mail, but that's not exactly a bad thing.


        * Incidentally, I already write all my e-mails long-form content in an external editor: the lack of my Emacs shortcuts is maddening.
        † I would also like to point out that message storage for e-mail is already largely online, and usually accessed via some webmail client.

        4 votes
        1. NaraVara
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I'd say this is a culture problem. Internally, within my team, I try to maintain a norm where quick questions and general chatter are done in Slack but all formal requests and notices are sent as...

          And e-mail proper is hardly used for long, carefully-written letter-like messages.

          I'd say this is a culture problem. Internally, within my team, I try to maintain a norm where quick questions and general chatter are done in Slack but all formal requests and notices are sent as emails. Often, if we have a conversation in Slack, I will send an email to the participants summarizing the topic of the conversation, the positions argued for or against, the group consensus, and next steps for each person in a separate email.

          Synchronous chat is just too chaotic and disorganized to make for easy reference, especially if you're looking back long after the fact when you've forgotten the context or if you're trying to get a third party to weigh in.

          Email does get overused for pointless missives, notices, promotions, quick-questions, and status-updates. IMO all those would be better served by direct messaging, a phone call, a chatbot, or some kind of RSS feed. But if you treat emails like a tool for writing formal memos and letters it works quite well at that. Most of the complaints people have about email come from senders abusing it and not respecting the recipients' attention. I think this is, largely, a consequence of work hierarchies. Managers were the last to catch on to email and are the most likely to use it in inconsiderate ways that are disrespectful of their recipients' time and attention. It's created a culture where we've normalized a lot of conventions around how people use email that are also, consequently, disrespectful of peoples' time.

          6 votes
        2. pallas
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          In my experience, the vast majority of the academic/scholarly research community uses email as their primary mode of communication outside of live meetings, and in many cases, do so through...

          Now, maybe there are some people who are actually using e-mail as their primary mode of communication, but I know I don't, and probably neither does the majority of e-mail users

          In my experience, the vast majority of the academic/scholarly research community uses email as their primary mode of communication outside of live meetings, and in many cases, do so through relatively long, letter-like emails.

          Our research group did try to use Matrix, but everyone switched back to email, despite my insistence on continuing to try it. It's enormously clunky for longer-message discussions, and discussions that don't fit around relatively UI-expensive rooms; I also seem to recall some considerable frustrations with the inflexibility of MXC as implemented, and the poor support for equations/etc.

          Also, you are mostly talking about the features, or lack thereof, of some Matrix clients:

          I'm not sure that I'd agree (and would also mention that what I wrote certainly applies to all Matrix clients I'm aware of). While there is always the hypothetical-client argument that was also often made for XMPP, the Matrix protocol itself is primarily built around rooms and a room-first, rather than message-first, architecture. It seems possible that the DAG architecture of events could be used for some form of threading if handled somewhat differently, but messages would still go to rooms. In all clients, rooms are relatively "heavy", and this is the case in server implementations as well: creating a new room for each new topic of discussion, inviting everyone, having everyone join, etc, would seem problematic, particularly when room deletion is generally not reasonably implemented in Synapse.

          On the other hand, however, seeing a room as a conversation, and restricting addressing to the entire conversation rather than individual messages, could potentially be a significant improvement over the common problem of people not understanding when people have been added to/removed from emails, and what quoted material is still present, a problem that I've frequently experienced, sometimes with very problematic consequences, when boards use email for discussions.

          Actually, all of this now makes me wonder about the viability of an email-like Matrix client. I would imagine this might involve:

          • Rooms reenvisioned as conversations with topics rather than names, and sortable/filterable by date/etc, along with abilities to archive
          • Conversation invitations dealt with in some more efficient way: eg, auto-accepting invitations from some list of trusted users, and listing unaccepted invitations as unopened conversations in some sortable/filterable way.
          • Split message-list/message-content view, and message threading, rather than an instant-message UI.

          Incidentally, I already write all my e-mails long-form content in an external editor: the lack of my Emacs shortcuts is maddening.

          So do I, actually, often using mu4e. To sound particularly horrible, this is in part to be able to write reasonable HTML emails via org-mode or pandoc, so that I can include figures and equations.

          3 votes
      3. lionirdeadman
        Link Parent
        While it is the primary use currently, it's not the only use, it can totally be used in an email-like manner. The protocol is pretty flexible and arguably the difference between IM and Email are...

        Matrix is an instant messaging system.

        While it is the primary use currently, it's not the only use, it can totally be used in an email-like manner. The protocol is pretty flexible and arguably the difference between IM and Email are more UX-related than protocol-related.

        1 vote
  6. [2]
    skybrian
    Link
    It seems like fax machines, email, and the web are similar in that, whatever their flaws, business usage will keep them alive long after social usage moves to something else. But the slow fade is...

    It seems like fax machines, email, and the web are similar in that, whatever their flaws, business usage will keep them alive long after social usage moves to something else.

    But the slow fade is well under way for fax and getting there for email, since many young people don't use it much. I don't see what could possibly replace the web, yet. It will probably start out as an app of some sort.

    6 votes
    1. FantasyCookie17
      Link Parent
      Well, there's GNUNet, but it seems like it doesn't actually aim to become a viable solution for the masses…

      Well, there's GNUNet, but it seems like it doesn't actually aim to become a viable solution for the masses…

      1 vote
  7. [2]
    mat
    Link
    Email is great at the things it does now - sending me order confirmations and shipping details for stuff I've bought online, and automated messages from various scripts and servers I have doing...

    Email is great at the things it does now - sending me order confirmations and shipping details for stuff I've bought online, and automated messages from various scripts and servers I have doing things for me. Almost no humans email me any more, and that's fine because email is fairly sucky for that.

    For personal communications it's long been superseded as far as I'm concerned.

    5 votes
    1. FantasyCookie17
      Link Parent
      I agree with the latter part, but even for this, privacy does matter. Which is why it makes sense to replace it anyway.

      I agree with the latter part, but even for this, privacy does matter. Which is why it makes sense to replace it anyway.

  8. [7]
    freddy
    Link
    The author of this wrote a response adressing most of these comments: https://fantasycookie17.onederfultech.com/posts/2020/08/further-considerations-on-email.html

    The author of this wrote a response adressing most of these comments:

    https://fantasycookie17.onederfultech.com/posts/2020/08/further-considerations-on-email.html

    5 votes
    1. [6]
      Akir
      Link Parent
      I wonder if the author is secretly a Tilderini. It's rare that we get tagged back. Well, it seems we broke his website before I could formulate my response, but I did want to make one specific...

      I wonder if the author is secretly a Tilderini. It's rare that we get tagged back.

      Well, it seems we broke his website before I could formulate my response, but I did want to make one specific comment. He mentions that Tech is never not changing as a reason why email will eventually fall out of grace. But I don't think that's entirely realistic. First of all, email is not a monolith - it does change as time goes by. There have been countless changes and additions to email since it first was suggested. Email is going to grow as it needs to. But, primarily, the reason why we use email today is not because it is a technological requirement, but because it's a social requirement. Email is embedded in the veins of society, and there's not much we can do about it. That's why I suggested that we should do more to improve it than to replace it.

      5 votes
      1. freddy
        Link Parent
        They shared the article with me on matrix, I thought it would fit here so I posted it. I shared the link to the post and hence the follow-up. Sorry to ruin the magic :(

        They shared the article with me on matrix, I thought it would fit here so I posted it. I shared the link to the post and hence the follow-up. Sorry to ruin the magic :(

        6 votes
      2. [3]
        cfabbro
        Link Parent
        The author probably just noticed the influx of traffic and checked the referrers, which lead them here. That's happened a few times in the past, and a few blog authors have even created accounts...

        The author probably just noticed the influx of traffic and checked the referrers, which lead them here. That's happened a few times in the past, and a few blog authors have even created accounts here afterwards to respond to the comments as well.

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          FantasyCookie17
          Link Parent
          As my privacy policy states, I do not perform any logging. I have no idea what kind of referer headers people have, or even how much traffic I get.

          As my privacy policy states, I do not perform any logging. I have no idea what kind of referer headers people have, or even how much traffic I get.

          7 votes
          1. cfabbro
            Link Parent
            Ah, kudos and good to know. Also, welcome to Tildes (which is also privacy-centric). :)

            Ah, kudos and good to know. Also, welcome to Tildes (which is also privacy-centric). :)

            5 votes
      3. FantasyCookie17
        Link Parent
        Broke my website? When? For how long? My about page states that it also may just be my IP address changing, or something like that…

        Broke my website? When? For how long? My about page states that it also may just be my IP address changing, or something like that…

        2 votes