23 votes

Tesla recalls 135,000 cars after pushing back against regulators

37 comments

  1. [4]
    nothis
    Link
    Fucking touchscreens. I once test-drove a Tesla to see what the fuzz is about. That touchscreen feels so weird. I assume other cars now jumped onto the trend because it's trendy but it was the...

    Fucking touchscreens. I once test-drove a Tesla to see what the fuzz is about. That touchscreen feels so weird. I assume other cars now jumped onto the trend because it's trendy but it was the first time I've seen it. Quite essential parts of control are delegated to a UI you can not possibly use without looking. In a car. There's a whole bunch of essential switches and buttons I simply want to be physical in car, for safety, for comfort, for frickin' common sense. I don't mind an additional touchscreen but making this the center of your control setup is just bonkers.

    16 votes
    1. vord
      Link Parent
      The more I use touchscreens, the more I hate them. At best, you get a vibration as tactile feedback. Often you get nothing. This makes them useless for a wide variety of applications, and vastly...

      The more I use touchscreens, the more I hate them.

      At best, you get a vibration as tactile feedback. Often you get nothing. This makes them useless for a wide variety of applications, and vastly inferior in many others.

      7 votes
    2. Akir
      Link Parent
      Yeah, that's basically the universal criticism for Tesla. I know that those control levers they put on the side of the steering wheel aren't cheap, but it's worth it when it's controlling safety...

      Yeah, that's basically the universal criticism for Tesla.

      I know that those control levers they put on the side of the steering wheel aren't cheap, but it's worth it when it's controlling safety features!

      6 votes
    3. Autoxidation
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I thought I would hate it, but I've come to find I really just don't interact with the touchscreen that much when I'm driving. I can do almost everything I need between the mouse wheel style...

      I thought I would hate it, but I've come to find I really just don't interact with the touchscreen that much when I'm driving. I can do almost everything I need between the mouse wheel style buttons on the steering wheel (which I love) and voice control. What do you think is essential that needs to be physical that wasn't on your test drive?

      4 votes
  2. [14]
    Autoxidation
    Link
    Really disappointed Tesla didn't do the right thing and fix the damn cars. Glad the NHTSA stepped in and forced them to do it.

    Really disappointed Tesla didn't do the right thing and fix the damn cars. Glad the NHTSA stepped in and forced them to do it.

    15 votes
    1. [13]
      AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      Are you disappointed because it's Tesla specifically?

      Are you disappointed because it's Tesla specifically?

      2 votes
      1. [12]
        Autoxidation
        Link Parent
        Yes. I expected better than just another company out to maximize profits. I could maybe-understand-but-not-really-buy the argument previously that Tesla didn't address this issue because they were...

        Yes. I expected better than just another company out to maximize profits. I could maybe-understand-but-not-really-buy the argument previously that Tesla didn't address this issue because they were still losing money. That hasn't been the case for the past year, so now they're just being greedy.

        8 votes
        1. [12]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [11]
            Autoxidation
            Link Parent
            Musk has repeatedly brought up addressing climate change and the mission statement of Tesla is "to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy." At one point it was a big part of Tesla and...

            Musk has repeatedly brought up addressing climate change and the mission statement of Tesla is "to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy." At one point it was a big part of Tesla and what it stood for, and the vision of that is partly why I wanted to support them. The transition to a solely profit driven company may have been inevitable, but I still don't like it.

            8 votes
            1. [11]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. [10]
                Autoxidation
                Link Parent
                Elon really despises his dad, and I don't think it's really fair to hold children accountable for the sins of their parents unless they continue to perpetuate them. Musk was the 4th employee to...

                Elon really despises his dad, and I don't think it's really fair to hold children accountable for the sins of their parents unless they continue to perpetuate them.

                Musk was the 4th employee to the company and contributed almost all of the first round of funding. he put his money, practically all of it, into ideas he believed in. I think that idea is rather different than some big wallstreet CEO buying a company to become the owner or something like that.

                13 votes
                1. [10]
                  Comment deleted by author
                  Link Parent
                  1. [5]
                    Autoxidation
                    Link Parent
                    Hmm. Where do you draw the line for these? Us, discussing this here, probably means we were born in the Western world, into relative wealth compared to most other humans. Do we feel the need to...

                    I don't agree. If someone is lucky enough to be born into wealth that was unfairly taken from others over a long period, it is their responsibility to repair the damage their family did - otherwise they are continuing to perpetuate that harm.

                    Hmm. Where do you draw the line for these? Us, discussing this here, probably means we were born in the Western world, into relative wealth compared to most other humans. Do we feel the need to repair the damage our parents did? That we do? There's the whole "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" meme but there is a large degree of truth there (IMO). Is it better to try to work within the system and force change where it can be applied, or spend energy trying to disrupt the system?

                    (This has also deviated quite a bit from Tesla recalling cars).

                    Had he actually wanted to significantly alter the course of, say, climate change, there are tons of ways his money could have been better spent.

                    I think I disagree with this, as Tesla was the real push for electric vehicles and their acceptance, and I am not convinced Tesla would have succeeded without Musk.

                    8 votes
                    1. [4]
                      Comment deleted by author
                      Link Parent
                      1. [3]
                        Autoxidation
                        Link Parent
                        I am certainly not against the idea that billionaires need to be paying vast sums of their wealth towards many things (or the idea that billionaires shouldn't really exist at all), but I don't...

                        See the parallel discussion of this. Basically: yes, we all need to pay reparations (which I already do, as a resident of my city) as well as give a lot of money to charity, but billionaires have much more leverage there, and thus much more responsibility.

                        I am certainly not against the idea that billionaires need to be paying vast sums of their wealth towards many things (or the idea that billionaires shouldn't really exist at all), but I don't think Musk owes more or less to society/everyone else because his dad owned an emerald mine. No one chooses where they are born.

                        I'm no expert on the industry; this could absolutely be true. But I don't think that makes Musk less likely to do scummy capitalist things, just more likely to succeed in greenwashing them.

                        This is more or less the idea that I am lamenting. In many interviews before Tesla went anywhere or Musk had any significant wealth, his main drive seemed to be to force systemic change to address climate change. He bucked the system and survived the oil industry attempts to kill Tesla. In many ways, he is different from the average capitalist. To see him/Tesla fall into those familiar tropes is disappointing, but not unexpected.

                        4 votes
                    2. vord
                      Link Parent
                      I think a good starting threshold would be 'If you own property, you must repair harm.' Property is defined as ownership of land and/or organizations for the purpose of profit, not a person dwelling.

                      I think a good starting threshold would be 'If you own property, you must repair harm.'

                      Property is defined as ownership of land and/or organizations for the purpose of profit, not a person dwelling.

                      3 votes
                  2. skybrian
                    Link Parent
                    If a country wanted to implement this system in a practical way then they would have to decide which obligations count, how do we record them, and when are they considered to be paid back. An...

                    If a country wanted to implement this system in a practical way then they would have to decide which obligations count, how do we record them, and when are they considered to be paid back.

                    An example of a formal obligation would be a debt. When someone dies, their estate has to pay off their debts, and if there is nothing left, the creditors have to eat the loss. It would be weird to say that the children have to pay the debt. Especially if the parent disinherited them.

                    Historically, rich families would have problems with spendthrift sons who would run up gambling debts that the family was customarily expected to pay. I suppose the opposite would be the spendthrift parent that runs up gambling debts that the children are expected to pay? It seems like a bad incentive, to be able to run up debts that someone else pays? How are we supposed to stop powerful relatives from doing foolish things? It’s responsibility without power.

                    But maybe you didn’t mean a formal obligation, just that children should, informally, feel like they are obligated? And other people, distant strangers, should judge them for that? But I don’t think informal arrangements really work. It seems like they might have worked in some traditional society where people spent their whole lives in the same village, not in a modern society where we aren’t really watching our neighbors.

                    I guess it’s just the honor system? People should, on their own, decide what they’re obligated to do, and when they’ve done enough? I’m not sure that works all that well for billionaires. It seems rather hit-and-miss.

                    Also, I’m not sure Musk has much of a PR team. It’s more like he is his own PR team. He tweets nonsense and the crowd loves him. (Or hates him.) it’s very Trump-like.

                    6 votes
                  3. [3]
                    streblo
                    Link Parent
                    If you unpack this logic to its logical conclusion it requires extremely radical action from most participating members of Western society. I'm not weighing in with whether it's right or wrong (I...

                    I don't agree. If someone is lucky enough to be born into wealth that was unfairly taken from others over a long period, it is their responsibility to repair the damage their family did - otherwise they are continuing to perpetuate that harm.

                    If you unpack this logic to its logical conclusion it requires extremely radical action from most participating members of Western society. I'm not weighing in with whether it's right or wrong (I do think it's a compelling argument) but taken to its conclusion and you end up something similar to Peter Singer's famous Famine, Affluence, and Morality.

                    4 votes
                    1. [3]
                      Comment deleted by author
                      Link Parent
                      1. vord
                        Link Parent
                        Makes sense. It's a pyramid of exploitation, where the power consolidates upward and thus ability to change. Dude with $30 in his bank account isn't gonna be able to stop slave trade in supply...

                        Makes sense. It's a pyramid of exploitation, where the power consolidates upward and thus ability to change.

                        Dude with $30 in his bank account isn't gonna be able to stop slave trade in supply lines.

                        Billionaire profiting off said supply lines can.

                        12 votes
                      2. streblo
                        Link Parent
                        Yea it's a really great argument. Has stuck with me for many years. Even if you dislike the outcome it's really hard to argue with his position. Same story with his Animal Liberation.

                        I largely agree with Peter Singer's argument

                        Yea it's a really great argument. Has stuck with me for many years. Even if you dislike the outcome it's really hard to argue with his position. Same story with his Animal Liberation.

                        2 votes
  3. [10]
    drannex
    Link
    That is such a massive time frame! They knew this was an issue for so long (I remember reports of these going back years) and still never recalled, and yet they still fought the regulators from...

    The recall applies to some 2012 through 2018 Model S and 2016 through 2018 Model X vehicles.

    That is such a massive time frame! They knew this was an issue for so long (I remember reports of these going back years) and still never recalled, and yet they still fought the regulators from putting out a safety notice. Their media console is such a major component to their car, controlling virtually everything.

    8 votes
    1. [2]
      stu2b50
      Link Parent
      And in the future it will control even more. In the new model S, they took out the shaft for gear shifting. Apparently it will "guess" the direction the car should move in (????), and there's a...

      And in the future it will control even more. In the new model S, they took out the shaft for gear shifting. Apparently it will "guess" the direction the car should move in (????), and there's a manual override on the touch screen.

      So if your touch screen is borked the direction that you drive in is dependent on the same system that "guesses" when it rains.

      Gaaah, Tesla does some thing so well and some things so poorly. I am so conflicted, since in many ways they are far ahead of their competition, but then sometimes I wonder if Elon has ever driven a car before.

      10 votes
      1. Autoxidation
        Link Parent
        I am very skeptical of the drift shift system as described so far. Who knows, maybe it is really good? That and the steering "yoke" are weird additions to an otherwise attractive refresh.

        I am very skeptical of the drift shift system as described so far. Who knows, maybe it is really good? That and the steering "yoke" are weird additions to an otherwise attractive refresh.

        2 votes
    2. [7]
      AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      As, seemingly, the resident car guy here (and I am not defending Tesla as I don't think any of the manufacturers are excusable) this time frame and number of cars is nothing. Ford's "death wobble"...

      That is such a massive time frame!

      As, seemingly, the resident car guy here (and I am not defending Tesla as I don't think any of the manufacturers are excusable) this time frame and number of cars is nothing. Ford's "death wobble" (watch the front tires) has been going on and fought by Ford for 15+ years now and that's on the single best selling truck in the country. And it's not just Ford.. Name a manufacturer and I can probably find something that they should have long since recalled to fix, but the math doesn't work out to do so [insert Fight Club recall formula scene here].

      8 votes
      1. [6]
        vord
        Link Parent
        And that is the fault of weak regulations and punishments for violations. Here's one that should work: Failure to disclose a safety-related problem with any publicly available good within 6 months...

        And that is the fault of weak regulations and punishments for violations.

        Here's one that should work:
        Failure to disclose a safety-related problem with any publicly available good within 6 months of discovery will result in the dissolution of the company and forfeiture of all assets for all stakeholders possessing more than 1% of the company. Whistleblowers are entitled to at least 5% of this amount.

        4 votes
        1. [4]
          MimicSquid
          Link Parent
          When you say "dissolution of the company", what do you envision happening to the employees? The physical assets distributed across the world? The intellectual property? What's the plan for...

          When you say "dissolution of the company", what do you envision happening to the employees? The physical assets distributed across the world? The intellectual property? What's the plan for continuing to supply the goods that the company used to supply, if that plan isn't purely "wait for a new company to move into that space, or for a large existing company to come closer to monopolizing that market?"

          It's really easy to say "Shut It Down!", but the logistics of not just ripping a hole in local and regional economies is not trivial.

          10 votes
          1. [3]
            vord
            Link Parent
            I mean just that. The company is dismantled. Release all IP to public domain, physical assets transferred to government ownership for resale. Proceeds from resale distributed to employees not...

            I mean just that. The company is dismantled. Release all IP to public domain, physical assets transferred to government ownership for resale. Proceeds from resale distributed to employees not implicated in the cover-up.

            Third parties can step up for replacement parts (with IP now public even easier).

            Monopolization solved by other just-as-draconian anti-trust regulations.

            4 votes
            1. [2]
              MimicSquid
              Link Parent
              That's audacious, but interesting. I'm not sure I see the steps to get there from here, but I'd be interested in seeing the results of such a program.

              That's audacious, but interesting. I'm not sure I see the steps to get there from here, but I'd be interested in seeing the results of such a program.

              5 votes
              1. vord
                Link Parent
                Trust me, I'm aware this is just my idea of what a proper regulation should look like, not what would actually happen. Probably a bit too far, yes. But I'd say we've had enough time trialing the...

                Trust me, I'm aware this is just my idea of what a proper regulation should look like, not what would actually happen.

                Probably a bit too far, yes. But I'd say we've had enough time trialing the weak regulations.

                5 votes
        2. [2]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. vord
            Link Parent
            True, but draconian measures of that ilk are going to be needed to get from here to there. If not the one I laid out, something in that same vein. Pretty sure nationalization is equally unviable...

            True, but draconian measures of that ilk are going to be needed to get from here to there. If not the one I laid out, something in that same vein.

            Pretty sure nationalization is equally unviable in today's world.

            I like to think of it as heavily incenivized ethics. Carrot/stick style.

            4 votes
  4. skybrian
    Link
    Tesla: Recalled touchscreens were meant to only last 5-6 years

    Tesla: Recalled touchscreens were meant to only last 5-6 years

    In a letter to the NHTSA, Tesla vice president of legal Al Prescott said that "given a reasonable average daily use of 1.4 cycles, the expected life would be five to six years." He added that "NHTSA has not presented any evidence to suggest that that the expected life is outside industry norms of that the eMMC flash memory device itself does not comport with that average lifetime estimate."

    Yet that implies Tesla doesn't expect its touchscreens to last the lifetime of the cars they're installed in. A 2020 IHS Markit study estimated the average age of a car on U.S. roads to be 11.9 years, and the current recall includes some cars from the 2012 model year, meaning they're almost 10 years old.

    5 votes
  5. [9]
    Comment removed by site admin
    Link
    1. Autoxidation
      Link Parent
      I am surprised to see this comment here and actually have votes. No sources for any of the claims. I thought Tildes was better than this? Tesla Model 3 scores highest during EU New Car Assessment...

      I am surprised to see this comment here and actually have votes. No sources for any of the claims. I thought Tildes was better than this?

      Tesla Model 3 scores highest during EU New Car Assessment Programme tests
      Tesla Model 3 scores top marks from independent IIHS test
      Tesla vehicles have some of the lowest chance of injury during an accident.

      13 votes
    2. [3]
      DrStone
      Link Parent
      Do they? In a cursory search, I’m mostly finding good safety ratings for at least the Model 3.

      Teslas have the worst safety rating of any car on the road.

      Do they? In a cursory search, I’m mostly finding good safety ratings for at least the Model 3.

      10 votes
      1. [2]
        teaearlgraycold
        Link Parent
        I remember hearing they do very well in crash tests because their batteries give them a low center of mass.

        I remember hearing they do very well in crash tests because their batteries give them a low center of mass.

        1. Autoxidation
          Link Parent
          No, they do better in crash tests because they have very large crumple zones to absorb impact energy.

          No, they do better in crash tests because they have very large crumple zones to absorb impact energy.

          1 vote
    3. [4]
      Thra11
      Link Parent
      I'm not a fan of Tesla, but in terms of safety ratings, they are actually pretty good. For example, looking at the Euro NCAP ratings and sorting by overall rating, the Tesla models 3 and X rank...

      I'm not a fan of Tesla, but in terms of safety ratings, they are actually pretty good. For example, looking at the Euro NCAP ratings and sorting by overall rating, the Tesla models 3 and X rank 3rd and 6th respectively out of all cars tested in 2019, while the model S still has 5 stars / 82%[1].

      So while there may be issues with build quality, software quality, customer service, worker rights and worker safety, I don't think you can claim that they have bad safety ratings.

      [1] Interestingly, many notorious issues with Teslas were related to autopilot. Euro NCAP have only recently started grading "automated driving technologies", so only the Tesla model 3 has a rating. It gets 95% for "Safety backup", but only 36% for "Assistance Competence", which I think means something like, "It's pretty safe as a human-driven car, just don't turn on the autopilot, oh fuck no do not do that!".

      6 votes
      1. [3]
        nerb
        Link Parent
        heh, I like that "issues with build quality, software quality, and automated driving" (you know, most of the selling points of the car) aren't considered to be related to the safety of the car...

        heh, I like that "issues with build quality, software quality, and automated driving" (you know, most of the selling points of the car) aren't considered to be related to the safety of the car itself.

        Also, Tesla was caught submitting inaccurate data to the NHTSA and also ended up getting cease-and desist letters from the agency around their use/marketing of NHTSA's initial (wrong) evaluation of that data on the Model 3. I'll back-off a bit though, because folks here are right at least in term of the flippancy of my post.

        I overstated the issue a little, but I think your post really highlights what the real issue is: Autopilot.

        It's called autopilot. People should be expected to treat it like that. It's a marquee feature of the product. It's part of the entire vision and philosophy of the car. It's also the most dangerous feature and it's contribution to accidents and deaths cannot be overstated enough and most of the safety ratings bodies are only just beginning to factor that into their methodologies for analyzing vehicle safety.

        1 vote
        1. Autoxidation
          Link Parent
          Again, no sources for any of your information. ??? Partly true, that they did receive a cease and desist over their claim of "lowest chance of injury of any vehicle tested" but that's not because...

          Again, no sources for any of your information.

          Tesla was caught submitting inaccurate data to the NHTSA

          ???

          also ended up getting cease-and desist letters from the agency around their use/marketing of NHTSA's initial (wrong) evaluation of that data on the Model 3.

          Partly true, that they did receive a cease and desist over their claim of "lowest chance of injury of any vehicle tested" but that's not because of a wrong evaluation:

          The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration admonished Musk for claiming the vehicle had “the lowest probability” of injury ever tested by the agency in its safety ratings program, according to the document obtained by government and legal transparency group PlainSite. That’s because NHTSA said the mass of a vehicle plays a role in passengers surviving crashes, something that’s not directly comparable between cars of differing sizes, despite the Model 3′s five-star rating.


          It's also the most dangerous feature and it's contribution to accidents and deaths cannot be overstated enough and most of the safety ratings bodies are only just beginning to factor that into their methodologies for analyzing vehicle safety.

          As someone who uses it on a pretty regular basis, this is completely untrue. Tesla publishes vehicle crash reports every quarter, and fewer accidents happen while Autopilot is engaged compared to manually driven Teslas, and Tesla vehicles as a whole suffer from fewer accidents than average vehicle data.

          2 votes
        2. Thra11
          Link Parent
          Yeah, the Euro NCAP assisted driving assessment explicitly calls that out in the comment for the model 3:

          It's called autopilot. People should be expected to treat it like that.

          Yeah, the Euro NCAP assisted driving assessment explicitly calls that out in the comment for the model 3:

          Tesla's system name Autopilot is inappropriate as it suggests full automation. The promotional material suggests automation where the handbook correctly indicates the limitations of the system capabilities, which could lead to confusion. Status information is clear, but the Model 3 does not offer a head-up display showing the system status in the driver’s direct line of sight. While the Tesla is equipped with an internal camera, it is not used for Driver Monitoring relying only on steering wheel input for driver engagement. The system resists driver steering input and then disengages, limiting co-operative driving.

          2 votes