What do you hope to see, content-wise, from Tildes?
Last night I posted a topic called "real sad boi hours", a ritualistic kind of post I've carried over from Reddit. I chose to post it in ~talk since the description for the group says it is for "Open-ended discussions with fellow Tildes users, casual or serious", and I felt there is nothing more open-ended or casual than real sad boi hours. At first, the topic was meant just as it usually does on Reddit. Got a few responses in which people talked about their day and how they were feeling. But right now, the most voted comment is complaining about how we need to restrict invitations to prevent low effort users like me from joining. One thing the user said was that is is obvious there are users joining who have not read the manifesto. I'm just going to spew my own opinion on a few points here:
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I don't think gatekeeping is a solution, especially since iirc this site is not going to be permanently invite-only. Not to mention that's just a childish solution anyway.
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I don't know what is expected from ~talk. As I said before, I legitimately believe my nightly "real sad boi hours" posts fit exactly what the description of the group says. However, that is up to interpretation I suppose.
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If my post was against some rule (which apparently roughly 17 users believe it is), there should be some kind of rule set or moderation set in place (though I understand why there isn't, the site being private still and all). My impression so far has been that if you don't like content, you just ignore it. But now I'm seeing that apparently, people don't like to ignore it. They want me gone.
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Is every user expected to read the manifesto? You may be able to get away with this while it's private (and even then, there is still users like me who only read a few pages) but if/when this site goes public, expecting every user or even just most the users to read the manifesto is a pipe dream. As far as I can tell, the reddiquette (which I have also not read) is shorter than the manifesto and nobody reads that either unless they need to. The only reason I know the reddiquette is because I've picked up on bits of it as time went on.
Maybe I'm just a butt-hurt bitch that people complained about me and I can't take criticism. I'm sure people who disliked my post will think that is it. I also may have a skewed perception of what this site is. I view it as an improvement upon Reddit and honestly I think some of this innovation may work great, which is why I'm here in the first place. I want to hear your take on what I said, and anything else you'd like to add.
You definitely have a point here, I think I agree. My post would probably would be better receive if it had more detail to it. I think altering it would improve the reception.
Thank you for the praise, means a lot to me that even if you may disagree you appreciate the discussion.
I also agree with the Reddit thing, I may have miscommunicated what I meant. I meant to say that I think of it as a site in a similar vein to Reddit, but definitely a thing of it's own through different ideas unlike copycat sites such as voat.
I was the user in question and stand by my point.
And yes, as @hungariantoast said:
It's not the purpose of the topic you created but the way you presented it. Part of what made reddit insufferably shallow for me and lots of other users are the meme, inside-jokes and whatnot.
I would like not to have to see this play invaded by "boi" and other childish expression of reddit-jargon, thank you.
Also, your post and this one post as well, denote only that you came here not to partecipate but to please your ego in a "fresh" community because post like yours, in which people ask others how their day/week was, has already been done and appreciated.
You joined, created a topic the day after, without even taking some time to first get to know the community first, and then now created a topic to complain (yes, this is complaining, nothing else) about how the bad community are gatekeeping you.
I repeat myself in this thread, but I can't help it. But I'll have a deep, high-level discussion with you, since this is the kind of content you really wish in this community.
Unsubscribe from ~talk if you want. It's that easy. You know how to program, you surely know how to navigate tildes. The same can be said about Reddit actually - just subscribe to the subreddits that you enjoy and have good discussions. r/TrueReddit, r/longreads, r/games, etc. Are all communities with a good level of discussion. I'm even going to mention r/polandball, since comments there can get very interesting. I definitely learned a lot in my years following that subreddit. There's some light shitposting, but there's also some very in-depth information about the history of the countries portrayed in the comics.
Your ego is even bigger. You want to please yourself with high-level discussions on Tildes, but where is your contributions to Tildes? Are you dedicated to invite users that aren't as butthurt as you, surely? Users that contribute, vote, and comment here? I'm trying my best here too, because I believe Tildes has potential to be a good place for discussions. I was even going to submit some interesting articles today, but sent a PM to Deimos just to be sure where I should post them.
Why are you attacking this user? What's wrong with users making a light-hearted post on ~talk? You keep saying, "read the docs", let me ask you, do you read the sidebar? I'm sure he did, he posted on ~talk. Let me share you the description of ~talk on the sidebar:
So here, we have this very simple and blunt description of what ~talk is, a board for serious discussions, but also casual if people wish to do so. It's fine to tell a user, if not in ~talk or ~misc, to explain what we wish for Tildes. But understand that you're not a moderator or community manager here, you're just another member of this forum. So you're expected to behave and respect other users above all else. If things are truly bad, Deimos or that other guy would have done something about it.
I hope you understand my message. I really blasted on you just like you blasted on this new user because people here need to be reminded that there's more to it that seriousness. Seriously.
Sure, didn't take some time to read and learn how the community have some unwritten rules and yet proceed to:
Man, you sure keep checking all the boxes. Keep going, I added the users labels on the extension just for the users that I love to remember to avoid wasting my time.
So a serious answer to you can't be in a "bullet point" way? I can quote anything from your comments. Markdown is here for that. It's the way I discuss things here. What's wrong with that? Is there a unwritten way to comment in here too?
We do have some unwritten rules, but they change. One thing that our community definitely wants is a different community, right? A community that accepts different views and opinions, while not being a jerk/using slurs?
I quoted you again, and here's why: I can check your comment history. It's completely fine. It's not rude, and I did so to pinpoint what I believe is your hypocrisy on Tildes.
Yes, I did attack our bias, because you attacked our new user on Tildes. It is not on your hands to tell what Tildes is, and what Tildes is not.
This is starting to get funny. Since you gave up on any sincere discussion here, do you see what you just did? I don't know what extension you're talking about, but if it is anything like Reddit Enhancement Suite ability to tag users, what makes you different from your average redditor, who keeps fighting in r/politics, mess in r/AgainstHateSubreddits, etc?
You try to keep a serious face, gate-keep new users from our community, but when someone confront you, you shut them down. You don't try to argue, to discuss, the very things you, me, the community, wants.
Would you shut down someone if they answered you in the comments just like I did? I definitely wasn't the most polite in my comment, but I didn't attack you with slurs of something like that. I'm not trolling. I just got a very strong opinion here. But here we are, you shut me down! How can Tildes deal with something "more serious" outside of technology, like news, opinion articles or politics, if we are going to start using extensions to check if someone's worthy or unworthy of a opinion? But sure, avoid answering to me in the future because you "tagged" someone!
edit: typos
Part of what interests me about @crius' comment here is that the "unwritten rules" clearly aren't agreed upon by everyone. I quite like arguments that quote each point you're going to reply to to keep things organized, and other comments I've seen in this style have performed just fine both within arguments and in terms of voting. I'm also partial to users having an actual presence and having the additional context of their other actions on the site brought with them, like it might be in real life or on a traditional forum. In fact, I'd say one of the best things about this place so far is that we aren't as faceless as Reddit became.
I'm sure you're not losing sleep over this, but I'm just gonna chip in that you shouldn't worry about it much. Clearly the way you behave on this site doesn't fit @crius' vision for it, but it's not like you're just ignoring these hidden site taboos or anything.
As a side note I suspect I might have a bad tag from @crius...if only I knew! I think tagging people that you don't want to interact with further is fine, though.
I'm closing this discussion with this comment just to clarify one of all the things you got wrong because you're just taking single points and not considering a reply in its entirety.
How I label a user doesn't concern you. Labels help me remember that with a user I had a heated discussion or a very strong different point of view so I can decide in future interaction if I'm in the mood or have time for another round or just let it be because I'm not up for it.
It's not "shutting down" anyone but on the contrary it's helping me and the whole website avoid having discussion when maybe I'm just having a bad day.
I don't think there is any problem with the kind of jargon he's using if it promotes discussion. As others have said the lack of clear tagging is what's hurting this site the most right now, you don't have to take it upon yourself to set yourself as the arbiter of good discussion. He made a mistake because he's new, he shouldn't be berated for that.
Hey man, I'm all about tildes being for high-effort content. But this sort of word policing just because you think "boi" is childish and don't understand the context or the usage of the phrase isn't cool. It's totally possible to have a vibrant discussion thread while using "boi".
Yeah but like... Those other posts were made on other days? If it's a repeat of a thread on the same day that's an issue but I don't see a problem with recurring generic discussions as long as they see activity.
I'm not very willing to excuse terrible attitudes simply because they had good intentions. The gatekeepers and people that throw around accusations of this isn't what Tildes is for! need to be challenged.
I'm not really "back", just here for a couple hours right now to try and clean up a few little messes that seem to have sprung up.
The short form of my thoughts is that I don't really want the site to be "no fun allowed ever", but I think there should also be some effort put into the posts. @JoshSellsGuns is obviously more than capable of making well-written, high-quality posts, but that ~talk post was lazy and meme-ish.
We also definitely need more features, guidelines, and methods that will help to both make those types of intentions clear as well as allow people to filter out types of posts they don't want to see. In general, I think people also need to relax a bit. Yes, some non-ideal posts are getting made here and there, but some people are acting like occasional jokes means that the site is irredeemably doomed.
I don't know how to say this without sounding mean, and I don't want to sound mean, but for fuck's sake: Lurk Moar is a meme for precisely this reason. Here you're saying that you don't understand the site, you don't want to make any effort at all to understand the site, but despite that you're going to complain when people tell you that you're doing something wrong. The combination of not reading the manifesto and then saying there aren't rules in place and also complaining about people who are telling you about the manifesto is a bit hard to take.
I'm one of the people who thinks the meta commentary and gatekeeping and title / group policing is both excessive and tedious, but even I think the people in that other thread had a point. (Even though I wish they had expressed it in a nicer manner).
It's ~talk . If people want serious discussions, they should:
Post and submit more serious stuff;
Don't be boring.
Seriously, I probably do more than the people whining about this, and I don't even post that much around here.
I'm not standing for this stupid gate-keeping. I'm just going to keep inviting people that I know enjoy longreads/truereddit/are serious on Reddit. But if those same people decide to have some fun talk, let them. This site allows this, and if any of you feel very entitled to serious discussions, you can simply unsubscribe from ~talk. It's meant for more casual conversation anyway.
People already describe Tildes as a sort of r/IAmVerySmart-ish place, and that's not a good thing. You need a balance of seriousness and fluffy. Let's not be r/IAmVerySmart, let's be just a good place for discussions.
Glad you said that. I love tildes quite a bit and really hope it takes off but it's definitely getting an iamverysmart vibe, which, if I have to be honest, is kinda grossing me out a little.
Sure, I agree. The problem with "Who's up" isn't that it's fluff, it's that it doesn't even lead to good fluff discussion.
I genuinely don't understand your grumpiness. You asked for an explanation; you got an explanation. Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear the answers.
Do note that I'm not OP. I'm just defending here because, as I said in another comment, ~talk is for both casual and serious talk.
We can only agree to disagree then; I thought it was pretty funny, and I don't like the /r/iamverysmart attitude in here. You can see in some other comments I made here. This is something that I feel pretty strongly about.
There's r/iamverysmart behavior on tildes, what DanBC said is not part of it.
Rather, like crius, you, too, tend to gate-keeping in this thread, just from a different perspective.
While you're right ~talk is for both casual and serious threads, casual does not imply low effort; and all that people want here is that everyone shows some recognizable effort.
You are free to mass submit links, but you put effort into the selection, tagging, and maybe the titles if the original ones don't fit.
If it's a casual question, you know that those tend to be low quality so you ensure it adds some value in its own right. And so on.
Lastly, just as you evaluate how a particular sub on Reddit is going to respond to your submission, you also take this site's communities' expectations into account--which are currently fairly uniform. When you're leading with jargon or memeish fluff with no obvious context, it shows either you don't care about this place, or you're likely intentionally baiting.
I don't mind casual content, I don't even mind fluff content. The only thing I hope is achieved with this website is that serious in depth discussions are separated from low effort stuff, so when I want something serious I can find it with out sifting through 100 other posts.
So I suppose what I hope is either: enforced use of tagging and/or stricter curation of if content appropriate to it's submitted group.
I think it's a technology problem actually. Tildes is still very young and lacking in important features that will lower the bar for acceptable content and make gatekeeping less warranted. Namely:
Just as https://docs.tildes.net/ explain, everything's on https://gitlab.com/tildes/tildes/issues/
I had to look it up too.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sad%20boi%20hours
~talk is weird, because it seems to be a place that's open to the kind of fluffy / empty casual conversations that would be shut down anywhere else on the website...but since this site is mostly populated by people who want more in-depth stuff, they criticize it even in the "containment group."
I think it might work out a little better if the designated hang out spot was clearly separated from the rest of the site, though I doubt it'll happen. Like forums will often have their chatbox that fills that role well because it doesn't leak into anything else.
I think we get silly with the constant meta discussions on every post, asking if this is what we really want on the website. I understand that sometimes it's necessary if something is really out of line, but I think it's better for us as users to be posting the kinds of things we do want to see rather than just hounding things that we don't. There's barely anything happening on here period, so we can all try and do the cool things we want on here without getting drowned out.
I agree. Rather than criticising you, that top comment should have criticised your post. Even better, it should have tried to educate you about why your post might be seen as unsuitable here.
I don't even know what the fuck "real sad boi hours" means. However, given the bad spelling and the ultimately shallow prompt "who's up?", I didn't see it as a serious attempt to start any discussion. Honestly, it looked like the kind of shallow content that everything I've read about this site indicated wouldn't be appropriate here. It looked some sort of meme or joke. The kindest interpretation I could come up with was that you were bored and wanted company.
There is no rule set (yet!). There is, however, documentation which outlines the goals and policies for this site. It's not like people are operating totally in the dark.
Again, I disagree with that reaction. This shouldn't be about kicking people out, but about educating them.
Fuck yes. You should always read the rules of any internet forum you participate in. If you don't bother to make even a minimal effort to find out what a forum is about and how it works, you're going to come a cropper - as you did on your very first post. Take some time to look around and understand the culture before you start posting: "lurk moar", as they say.
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Reddit any more."
I totally agree with this. I am all for real conversation about serious things, but most people are not serious all the time. If Tildes is just going to be r/truereddit then why not just use r/truereddit? Just to not give Reddit some ad money? My personal hope for the community here is that we become a toxin free community to discuss all kinds of things, even those on the edge of fluff. Also, seeing all the gatekeeping comments, even though I understand their purpose, might turn off a lot of people. It does leave a bitter taste in my mouth, and those comments are not even directed towards me. As you said, just a way to categorize and filter fluff might be the best way to go.
Less meta discussion.
yea I'm kind of wondering the same thing. I posted in lifestyles for an indepth review of housing culture and it was moved to misc and no real discussion on the issue just critical of the imgur host
https://tildes.net/~misc/2so/to_better_understand_the_raising_housing_price_review_the_housing_culture
There was a recent move to change lifestyle to health, which moved all non-health postings to misc.
ahhhh is there any kind of business/econ in the near future
edit or even culture where our changing ideals are affecting society
There seems to be a post every few weeks about adding, merging groups. You should suggest it next time it comes up. In the meantime,aybe just start tagging posts as such, as we can filter on tags.