21 votes

How will Tildes work with bans?

Basically, with groups being admin controlled rather than the reddit system of mods, will all bans be site wide or should group bans be possible? Let's say somebody is harassing or being an asshole on ~LGBT, should they be banned from ~LGBT or from the website?

84 comments

  1. [23]
    geosmin Link
    If you steal an apple at the grocery store you're getting kicked out of the building, not the produce section.

    If you steal an apple at the grocery store you're getting kicked out of the building, not the produce section.

    44 votes
    1. [14]
      amplitude Link Parent
      With all the difficulties real-life analogies for digital concepts usally have, I think this is a good one. On the other hand, following your analogy, it's much easier keeping someone out of the...

      With all the difficulties real-life analogies for digital concepts usally have, I think this is a good one. On the other hand, following your analogy, it's much easier keeping someone out of the building than keeping him out of the section. That said: Since it's easy to revoke someone the rights of posting in/reading a specific group, does the extreme of banning the user from Tildes need to be taken?

      9 votes
      1. [12]
        DanBC Link Parent
        Yes. Someone who is an arsehole in ~LGBT is someone who deserves a sitewide ban because they've been an arsehole in ~LGBT. You say this is an extreme. I'd suggest the reasonable way to avoid a...

        does the extreme of banning the user from Tildes need to be taken?

        Yes. Someone who is an arsehole in ~LGBT is someone who deserves a sitewide ban because they've been an arsehole in ~LGBT.

        You say this is an extreme. I'd suggest the reasonable way to avoid a sitewide ban is "Don't be an arsehole anywhere on the site". This is not an onerous requirement. It's not burdensome.

        19 votes
        1. [6]
          mundane_and_naive (edited ) Link Parent
          Being an arsehole isn't something as common sense as people think. Not every thing labeled "hate speech" is easily agreeable as someone spewing vulgarity or calling people stupid or whatever, many...

          Being an arsehole isn't something as common sense as people think. Not every thing labeled "hate speech" is easily agreeable as someone spewing vulgarity or calling people stupid or whatever, many things are context dependent. Let's say there's a depression support group and I go in and start talking about the philosophical validity of suicide as a way out. I can have all sort of reasonable arguments and behave in the most civil way possible and I would still deserve to be ban from that thread. It wasn't the right place for my kind of topic. I was being insensitive. Is someone like me deserve to be ban from the whole site? I don't think so. Such topic is suitable in somewhere like ~philosophy and someone like me would fit in there fine. We could argue about how the fact that I made my argument specifically in a thread for depressed people was a deliberate act against depressed people or it could just be I was socially unaware. We could then argue that any reasonable human being should be aware of basic social cues but really, can we really expect everyone to know every social cues there are in every groups before stating their opinion and get banned from the whole site? Maybe that's what they should do, maybe it should be good manner that they lurk more in a group to know what are the common rules there before saying anything. When the site gets big however, groups are bound to have drive-by people who just want to participate in the moment and didn't bother reading the rules. Is it reasonable to ban everyone from the whole site because they broke the rule of one single group? What about when people from groups with different social norms start interacting with each other? I don't know about you but this to me is a recipe for an site-wide echo chamber bigger than anything on Reddit.

          But the argument I made above is a slippery slope. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but it is what would happen if we're willing to push the "someone who is an arsehole in ~group is someone who deserves a sitewide ban because they've been an arsehole in ~group" to its extreme. There has to be middle grounds, some things can be ok with some group of people while not so for others.

          If I remember correctly, that person who got banned was for going into a discussion for LGBT people, declare himself a "transphobe" and then explain to them why they were damaged. I wasn't here when that happened but I was in the Reddit thread that they made "complaining" about the ban and from what I can see, their language didn't seem particularly toxic. It didn't strike me as to personally offend the groups, they seemed to genuinely believe their position and was arguing for it in a civil manner. It was just a very unpopular opinion. The one thing that I'd fault them for is that they was too defensive and asserted themself in the wrong place and so to me, temporary ban and a warning is enough. Give people a chance to learn from their mistake.

          Edit: some grammar

          4 votes
          1. [4]
            Catt Link Parent
            I saw the posts of the person that was banned. It wasn't because they were debating what it means to be trans or if it was right or wrong. They were banned for going into an intro thread and...

            I saw the posts of the person that was banned. It wasn't because they were debating what it means to be trans or if it was right or wrong. They were banned for going into an intro thread and telling people they have an illness. It was not the right place for such a discussion and this was repeatedly pointed out to them in the thread. Their choice of language was also far from neutral.

            I saw their post on Reddit too, and let's just say it was one-sided.

            8 votes
            1. [3]
              mundane_and_naive Link Parent
              If that was the case, I will agree with the ban. That being said, I will still hold my position. Had they actually behaved the way they did in the Reddit thread, I wouldn't want them to be ban...

              If that was the case, I will agree with the ban. That being said, I will still hold my position. Had they actually behaved the way they did in the Reddit thread, I wouldn't want them to be ban site-wide, but only from that thread.

              2 votes
              1. [2]
                Algernon_Asimov (edited ) Link Parent
                Neither of these features - temporary bans, thread-specific bans - exist on Tildes yet. It's an all-or-nothing deal: you get banned from the whole site forever, or... nothing. There will probably...

                to me, temporary ban and a warning is enough.

                I wouldn't want them to be ban site-wide, but only from that thread.

                Neither of these features - temporary bans, thread-specific bans - exist on Tildes yet. It's an all-or-nothing deal: you get banned from the whole site forever, or... nothing. There will probably be more nuanced moderation tools available here in the future but, for now, a full permanent ban is it. Deimos has to use a sledgehammer because it's the only tool in the toolshed so far.

                EDIT: Inserted "whole" in "the whole site".

                5 votes
                1. mundane_and_naive Link Parent
                  Yeah, given the reality of the situation, that was the right call. It probably also made sense to do so early on to make an example and give people a basis for discussions like this to figure out...

                  Yeah, given the reality of the situation, that was the right call. It probably also made sense to do so early on to make an example and give people a basis for discussions like this to figure out what is and isn't suitable.

                  1 vote
          2. DanBC Link Parent
            A person's inability to chose a suitable group to post that discussion in would make that person an arsehole. The behaviour - trolling a group of people getting support - makes the person an arsehole.

            Let's say there's a depression support group and I go in and start talking about the philosophical validity of suicide as a way out.

            A person's inability to chose a suitable group to post that discussion in would make that person an arsehole. The behaviour - trolling a group of people getting support - makes the person an arsehole.

            2 votes
        2. [5]
          Akronymus Link Parent
          What if someone posts something that is a unpopular opinion for that subgroup and subsequently get banned for it? Should it still be sitewide?

          What if someone posts something that is a unpopular opinion for that subgroup and subsequently get banned for it? Should it still be sitewide?

          1 vote
          1. spit-evil-olive-tips Link Parent
            Tildes is not Reddit. Groups and subgroups aren't going to have independent moderators who can run their own little fiefdoms by their rules, unchecked by site-wide admins. There won't be the...

            Tildes is not Reddit.

            Groups and subgroups aren't going to have independent moderators who can run their own little fiefdoms by their rules, unchecked by site-wide admins. There won't be the equivalent of /r/politics where you get banned for being conservative and T_D where you get banned for being liberal.

            22 votes
          2. [2]
            clone1 Link Parent
            Nobody will get banned for having an unpopular opinion. Hate speech is against the rules, not unpopular opinions. If you can't express your opinion without using hate speech, there's a problem.

            Nobody will get banned for having an unpopular opinion. Hate speech is against the rules, not unpopular opinions. If you can't express your opinion without using hate speech, there's a problem.

            16 votes
            1. Tenlock Link Parent
              Unless Tildes is 100% algorithm-driven, you can't say this as a fact. Moderators are humans. And even if Tildes were 100% algorithm-driven, there are humans creating those algorithms. Every...

              Nobody will get banned for having an unpopular opinion.

              Unless Tildes is 100% algorithm-driven, you can't say this as a fact. Moderators are humans. And even if Tildes were 100% algorithm-driven, there are humans creating those algorithms. Every community starts off saying "No, of course not..." A lot of subreddits did too.

          3. DanBC Link Parent
            I'd suggest that holding an unpopular opinion isn't the same as behaving like an arsehole.

            I'd suggest that holding an unpopular opinion isn't the same as behaving like an arsehole.

            1 vote
      2. thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
        Just like @alexandre9099 said, it makes sense that they're first banned form the group and then from the site if they keep it up.

        Just like @alexandre9099 said, it makes sense that they're first banned form the group and then from the site if they keep it up.

        1 vote
    2. [8]
      thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
      That's true, but a website isn't the real world and how something is handled online isn't necessarily going to be how something is handled in real life.

      That's true, but a website isn't the real world and how something is handled online isn't necessarily going to be how something is handled in real life.

      2 votes
      1. [7]
        dances-with-shills Link Parent
        If someone proved beyond a shadow of doubt that he is an intolerable on a given group, why do we want him in any other groups? Makes zero sense to me, either online or IRL.

        If someone proved beyond a shadow of doubt that he is an intolerable on a given group, why do we want him in any other groups? Makes zero sense to me, either online or IRL.

        14 votes
        1. [6]
          thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
          That is true, but what if someone is always derailing discussion on ~LGBT because of politics but they're fine on the rest of the site? Do they get a site ban?

          That is true, but what if someone is always derailing discussion on ~LGBT because of politics but they're fine on the rest of the site? Do they get a site ban?

          1 vote
          1. [3]
            Catt Link Parent
            For the record, I don't believe people will be banned for derailing discussions. It's being disrespectful that will earn bans. My two-cents, we're a community and I don't believe you can...

            For the record, I don't believe people will be banned for derailing discussions. It's being disrespectful that will earn bans.

            My two-cents, we're a community and I don't believe you can disrespect me in one group, and not do it in another group. Personally in favour of either a full ban or not. Don't really see the point of a group ban.

            12 votes
            1. [2]
              thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
              Agreed yeah, group bans just don't make sense when working with so few groups that are also admin controlled. What about temp bans?

              Agreed yeah, group bans just don't make sense when working with so few groups that are also admin controlled. What about temp bans?

              1 vote
              1. Catt Link Parent
                I can see the merit, but personally don't think it's worth the effort. For things that toe the line, I would say send a warning, and if they still don't correct the offending behaviour, ban them....

                I can see the merit, but personally don't think it's worth the effort.

                For things that toe the line, I would say send a warning, and if they still don't correct the offending behaviour, ban them. For obvious trolling and such, straight up ban. Why waste anyone's time?

                9 votes
          2. apoctr Link Parent
            Depends on what you mean by "derailing". Hate-speech or constant top-and-response level comments that maliciously aimed to derail discussion I would hope result in a site-wide ban, because they...

            what if someone is always derailing discussion on ~LGBT because of politics

            Depends on what you mean by "derailing". Hate-speech or constant top-and-response level comments that maliciously aimed to derail discussion I would hope result in a site-wide ban, because they show the user can't control themselves and act reasonably/nicely/politely.

            3 votes
          3. dances-with-shills Link Parent
            If they're intentionally derailing discussion anywhere, for any reason, shove their ass out the door and never look back at it. If they are justified in deserving a ban on any group they are...

            If they're intentionally derailing discussion anywhere, for any reason, shove their ass out the door and never look back at it. If they are justified in deserving a ban on any group they are justified in getting banned on the entire website.

            Now if they are banned unjustifiably from one of the groups for any reason, that's an entirely different problem and we need to address it, however that's not what Tildes works like at the current moment.

            3 votes
  2. [3]
    Amarok Link
    We haven't really discussed this topic with the users here before. It'd be nice to get everyone's opinions on how they'd like to see this system work.

    We haven't really discussed this topic with the users here before. It'd be nice to get everyone's opinions on how they'd like to see this system work.

    11 votes
    1. CALICO Link Parent
      I like the 4chan-model, believe it or not: temporary board ban (1-x days, per mod discretion) permanent board ban; can appeal permanent board ban; no appeal temporary site-wide ban (1-x days, per...

      I like the 4chan-model, believe it or not:

      • temporary board ban (1-x days, per mod discretion)
      • permanent board ban; can appeal
      • permanent board ban; no appeal
      • temporary site-wide ban (1-x days, per mod/admin discretion)
      • permanent site-wide ban; can appeal
      • permanent site-wide ban; no appeal

      These aren't levels that need to be worked up to, any can be applied at any time. It's based on level of infraction, and likelihood of learning from your actions. You're also given specific reasons behind your ban.
      While the rules and allowed conduct on 4chan are certainly more fast and loose than what we'd like here, their system has levels of nuance which I think are important to have. Not all infractions deserve a permanent ban, and not all those who receive permanent bans are incapable of learning from their mistakes and growing as a person.
      Such a system would certainly need a robust team of trusted moderators though.

      20 votes
    2. Akronymus Link Parent
      I think that groups shouldn't affect a group that is the root of the group where the person got banned under all circumstances, but should kick a notification for a review upwards, but should...

      I think that groups shouldn't affect a group that is the root of the group where the person got banned under all circumstances, but should kick a notification for a review upwards, but should affect subgroups. So if someone did something that doesn't mesh well with a group, it only affects that group, but if someone did something REALLY bad, you can keep kicking it up the chain.

  3. [48]
    dubteedub Link
    Given how small this site is and how there are not really separate communities at this time, I don't see why you would not ban someone site-wide if they do something that is worth banning. We are...

    Given how small this site is and how there are not really separate communities at this time, I don't see why you would not ban someone site-wide if they do something that is worth banning.

    We are all participating in multiple spaces and conversations across this site at any one point, if someone is constantly engaging in bad faith in a post on ~life enough to get banned from that channel, why would we think their behavior would be any different in ~misc?

    10 votes
    1. [47]
      thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
      That is true, right now I don't really know how it should be dealt with. Does tildes even ban users currently?

      That is true, right now I don't really know how it should be dealt with. Does tildes even ban users currently?

      1 vote
      1. [16]
        Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
        Deimos has banned three people that we know of: Someone who abused the comment tags (leading to those comment tags being disabled for a while). Someone who posted transphobic comments in ~lgbt....

        Deimos has banned three people that we know of:

        • Someone who abused the comment tags (leading to those comment tags being disabled for a while).

        • Someone who posted transphobic comments in ~lgbt.

        • Someone who repeatedly made bad faith posts.

        (FYI: @dubteedub).

        There are possibly a few more bans we don't know of. Deimos announced the first few bans, so he could tell us what people were being banned for. There haven't been any announcements for a month or so, but that doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't banned anyone recently.

        All bans here are currently site-wide, because the feature to ban users from a single group has not been built yet. I mean, the ability for anyone apart from Deimos to ban users hasn't been built yet! Remember that Tildes is still in "alpha testing"; that means that not all features have been built. It's very much a work in progress. What you see now is most definitely not what you will get.

        8 votes
        1. [2]
          Flashynuff Link Parent
          Thanks for mentioning this! I feel like a lot of people are treating this closer to a beta or even a finished product (for that, I blame the tech industry's current trend of releasing everything...

          Remember that Tildes is still in "alpha testing"; that means that not all features have been built. It's very much a work in progress. What you see now is most definitely not what you will get.

          Thanks for mentioning this! I feel like a lot of people are treating this closer to a beta or even a finished product (for that, I blame the tech industry's current trend of releasing everything as a "beta"). I don't think there's much use in constant navelgazing over how every little issue like bans, tags, or UI implementations are going to work when we don't even truly know how the big issues that those depend on are going to work yet!

          9 votes
          1. Deimos Link Parent
            I think people also don't necessarily consider what it means to have one person working on almost everything. When I'm doing something—no matter what it is—that's the only thing that's happening....

            I think people also don't necessarily consider what it means to have one person working on almost everything. When I'm doing something—no matter what it is—that's the only thing that's happening. If I spend an hour reading, writing, and replying to meta threads like this, that's an hour of development that doesn't happen, or an hour of reviewing open-source contributions, or... anything else.

            Some of this will probably improve over time, and eventually users will be able to help with a lot of the management of the site itself (and multiple are already helping with development), but it will always be a factor. This will probably never be a large operation, and it may never even get past this one-person state.

            9 votes
        2. [3]
          Deimos Link Parent
          There have been a few more, nothing interesting though. A couple blatant trolls. A couple of people that I sent a warning to that replied back telling me to go fuck myself. A strange SEO spammer...

          There have been a few more, nothing interesting though. A couple blatant trolls. A couple of people that I sent a warning to that replied back telling me to go fuck myself. A strange SEO spammer the other day.

          9 votes
          1. Amarok Link Parent
            I love it when they make it so easy. Anyone who does that removes all doubt. :)

            A couple of people that I sent a warning to that replied back telling me to go fuck myself.

            I love it when they make it so easy. Anyone who does that removes all doubt. :)

            8 votes
          2. Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
            I assumed as much. I figured there was no way this site could get to nearly 6,000 subscribers and attract only 3 troublemakers - even if we are operating on an invite-only basis. And, while the...

            There have been a few more

            I assumed as much. I figured there was no way this site could get to nearly 6,000 subscribers and attract only 3 troublemakers - even if we are operating on an invite-only basis.

            And, while the first few bans are newsworthy, after a while they just become business as usual: not worth announcing.

            6 votes
        3. Catt Link Parent
          And just to add a bit to that, for anyone who wasn't around for the known bans - they've been pretty cut and dry. And those users all showed a strong pattern of behaviour. They were not one wrong...

          And just to add a bit to that, for anyone who wasn't around for the known bans - they've been pretty cut and dry. And those users all showed a strong pattern of behaviour. They were not one wrong comment or accidentally let an discussion get heated.

          6 votes
        4. [9]
          apoctr Link Parent
          I've seen Comment removed by site admin comments increase in frequency. I'd assume more users are starting to be banned, and/or Deimos is being less transparent with banned user's histories.

          I've seen Comment removed by site admin comments increase in frequency. I'd assume more users are starting to be banned, and/or Deimos is being less transparent with banned user's histories.

          2 votes
          1. [6]
            Flashynuff Link Parent
            That doesn't necessarily mean the user was banned, just that the comment was removed. I have noticed that as well, though.

            That doesn't necessarily mean the user was banned, just that the comment was removed. I have noticed that as well, though.

            9 votes
            1. [5]
              apoctr Link Parent
              That's true. I figured if comments are being removed, there's probably a reason for it related to a ban/warning though.

              That's true. I figured if comments are being removed, there's probably a reason for it related to a ban/warning though.

              1. [4]
                Catt Link Parent
                Not necessarily true. A few of the threads I was reading when the comments were removed and have definitely seen the users active since, so they're definitely not banned. They may have been sent a...

                Not necessarily true. A few of the threads I was reading when the comments were removed and have definitely seen the users active since, so they're definitely not banned. They may have been sent a private warning though. Generally, a lot times, it seems to be to stop certain arguments that are already derailing and becoming hostile to continue.

                I've noticed we've been getting a mini-wave of new users and this seems to happen a bit whenever that happens.

                8 votes
                1. [3]
                  Amarok Link Parent
                  Yep. There's another 300ish waiting in the wings in the latest /r/tildes invite thread, the majority of which came in from an /r/outoftheloop post about reddit gold becoming reddit premium....

                  Yep. There's another 300ish waiting in the wings in the latest /r/tildes invite thread, the majority of which came in from an /r/outoftheloop post about reddit gold becoming reddit premium. Reddit's basically selling super-upvotes now. I'm sure that will end well for them. :P

                  8 votes
                  1. Flashynuff Link Parent
                    oh wow this is the first I'm hearing about reddit premium, lmao they're actually calling the super upvotes 'super gold'

                    oh wow this is the first I'm hearing about reddit premium, lmao they're actually calling the super upvotes 'super gold'

                    5 votes
                  2. Catt Link Parent
                    Lol, that's crazy.

                    Lol, that's crazy.

                    2 votes
          2. [2]
            Deimos Link Parent
            Nah, most of those removals haven't been related to bans. A decent number of the removed comments lately have been two people having some kind of argument back and forth about something that has...

            Nah, most of those removals haven't been related to bans. A decent number of the removed comments lately have been two people having some kind of argument back and forth about something that has little to do with the topic, and usually starting to escalate into becoming more personal.

            9 votes
            1. apoctr Link Parent
              Ah, good to know!

              Ah, good to know!

              1 vote
      2. [30]
        dubteedub Link Parent
        Deimos has publicly banned one user for abusing the comment tag system to troll someone. I believe they were banned site-wide. edit: see here -...

        Deimos has publicly banned one user for abusing the comment tag system to troll someone. I believe they were banned site-wide.

        edit: see here - https://tildes.net/~tildes.official/wv/daily_tildes_discussion_our_first_ban

        1 vote
        1. [29]
          thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
          Wait, comments have tags already? I thought that was planned for the future. Anyways, good to see that the site has a system in place for pesky users.

          Wait, comments have tags already? I thought that was planned for the future. Anyways, good to see that the site has a system in place for pesky users.

          1. [27]
            Catt Link Parent
            We did, and then they were abused and are currently disabled. They are on the list to be reimplemented eventually.

            We did, and then they were abused and are currently disabled.

            They are on the list to be reimplemented eventually.

            7 votes
            1. [26]
              thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
              Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, comment tags are one of those things where I don't see how you can prevent abusing the system.

              Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, comment tags are one of those things where I don't see how you can prevent abusing the system.

              1 vote
              1. [25]
                Eylrid Link Parent
                When they are reenabled they will probably be limited to trusted users.

                When they are reenabled they will probably be limited to trusted users.

                4 votes
                1. [24]
                  thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
                  That makes sense, but how do you define a trusted user? Votes or something? Still seems easy to troll just by... not trolling for a few months.

                  That makes sense, but how do you define a trusted user? Votes or something? Still seems easy to troll just by... not trolling for a few months.

                  1 vote
                  1. [4]
                    Eylrid Link Parent
                    Trust will be earned through consistent positive contribution to the group (both through posting and other actions like correctly reporting, tagging, voting, etc.). Reputation decays over time, so...

                    Trust will be earned through consistent positive contribution to the group (both through posting and other actions like correctly reporting, tagging, voting, etc.). Reputation decays over time, so users will have to keep participating, and it can be lost quickly if abused.

                    The site docs go into more detail

                    See also this comment by u/evilnight

                    9 votes
                    1. [3]
                      thisonemakesyouthink (edited ) Link Parent
                      Decay, now that's a genius idea I hadn't even thought of. Only time will tell how this system will pan out but I have faith in Deimos.

                      Decay, now that's a genius idea I hadn't even thought of. Only time will tell how this system will pan out but I have faith in Deimos.

                      1. [2]
                        Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                        That's "admin", singular. There is currently only one administrator here: Deimos. He has some advisers who he discusses ideas with, and there are some outside developers contributing small parts...

                        I have faith in the admins.

                        That's "admin", singular. There is currently only one administrator here: Deimos. He has some advisers who he discusses ideas with, and there are some outside developers contributing small parts of code (it's an open source project), but Deimos is The One True God. This is his project, and his alone.

                        Eventually, he'll have some moderators, and maybe some other admins. But, for now, it's all him. He is our benevolent dictator.

                        2 votes
                  2. [19]
                    Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                    It'll be a combination of things. Partly votes on their post, partly how they treat the low-level moderation powers they get. Doesn't anyone read the documentation before they jump into this group...

                    how do you define a trusted user?

                    It'll be a combination of things. Partly votes on their post, partly how they treat the low-level moderation powers they get.

                    Doesn't anyone read the documentation before they jump into this group to ask questions?

                    3 votes
                    1. [15]
                      dubteedub Link Parent
                      I don't think most people do based on the amount of questions that come up here by new users that ask basic questions answered in them. It might be a good idea on account creation to have a pop-up...

                      Doesn't anyone read the documentation before they jump into this group to ask questions?

                      I don't think most people do based on the amount of questions that come up here by new users that ask basic questions answered in them. It might be a good idea on account creation to have a pop-up with a link to the docs come up that they have to agree to or acknowledge to complete the process. Or maybe have them receive a message from Tildes on account creation that thanks them for joining and reminds them to read the docs before continuing.

                      4 votes
                      1. [7]
                        Catt Link Parent
                        I use to write docs (manuals and stuff) for a living and I can honestly say nobody reads anything, which I honestly find really funny on Tildes, because the answers still need to be read. Anyway,...

                        I use to write docs (manuals and stuff) for a living and I can honestly say nobody reads anything, which I honestly find really funny on Tildes, because the answers still need to be read. Anyway, I think it's a great idea to point newcomers to be docs, but still answer their questions as they come up.

                        7 votes
                        1. Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                          Same here, on both counts!

                          I use to write docs (manuals and stuff) for a living and I can honestly say nobody reads anything

                          Same here, on both counts!

                          3 votes
                        2. [5]
                          frickindeal Link Parent
                          You get a link to them (to the mechanics section) in your inbox in a message entitled Welcome to the Tildes alpha the first time you load the front page. No one really has any excuse for not at...

                          You get a link to them (to the mechanics section) in your inbox in a message entitled Welcome to the Tildes alpha the first time you load the front page. No one really has any excuse for not at least skimming the docs.

                          2 votes
                          1. [3]
                            Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                            "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." I've learned from hard experience as someone who has written training documentation for software, and who has trained people in how to...

                            "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

                            I've learned from hard experience as someone who has written training documentation for software, and who has trained people in how to use that software, that most people will not read documentation unless they absolutely have to.

                            There's a reason that "RTFM" became an abbreviation - it gets a lot of use!

                            4 votes
                            1. frickindeal Link Parent
                              Agree; it just seems like people ask questions they know or should know would be in the documentation they were linked to in their welcome message. I don't want this to become a "RTFM" kind of...

                              Agree; it just seems like people ask questions they know or should know would be in the documentation they were linked to in their welcome message. I don't want this to become a "RTFM" kind of place, but linking to relevant sections of the docs is often the best way to handle people who haven't bothered to read them at all. I get that the site is new, and people assume because it's alpha they can ask basic questions, but when most of them are already covered, it becomes repetitive to answer the same questions.

                              2 votes
                            2. dubteedub Link Parent
                              Lol, it would be funny if RTFD became a common phrase here

                              Lol, it would be funny if RTFD became a common phrase here

                              1 vote
                          2. Catt Link Parent
                            meh...asking people to read docs in order to use a fairly basic site is a bit much. I'm all about reading docs, but also believe intuitive design is more important than docs. I've also been around...

                            meh...asking people to read docs in order to use a fairly basic site is a bit much.

                            I'm all about reading docs, but also believe intuitive design is more important than docs. I've also been around since May, so when someone brings up a reposted topic, I generally can recognize it, but don't expect newcomers to really go looking for them, especially since we don't have an integrated search engine.

                            Having said that, don't get me wrong, I do find myself engaging less and less with each repeat. And honestly, some of them are repeated topics within a couple days...

                            4 votes
                      2. [2]
                        apoctr Link Parent
                        This is already the case IIRC.

                        maybe have them receive a message from Tildes on account creation that thanks them for joining and reminds them to read the docs before continuing.

                        This is already the case IIRC.

                        4 votes
                        1. dubteedub Link Parent
                          cool good to know, I did not recall getting something like that when I joined

                          cool good to know, I did not recall getting something like that when I joined

                      3. [5]
                        Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                        I know they don't: that was a rhetorical question. You mean, like the one they already get? ;)

                        I don't think most people do

                        I know they don't: that was a rhetorical question.

                        Or maybe have them receive a message from Tildes on account creation that thanks them for joining and reminds them to read the docs before continuing.

                        You mean, like the one they already get? ;)

                        3 votes
                        1. [4]
                          dubteedub Link Parent
                          I made my account back in May so maybe that was before that process started since I don't remember getting something like that.

                          I made my account back in May so maybe that was before that process started since I don't remember getting something like that.

                          1. [3]
                            Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                            I made my account on 1st June, and I got that introduction message, so you must have just missed out! :P

                            I made my account on 1st June, and I got that introduction message, so you must have just missed out! :P

                            2 votes
                            1. [2]
                              Catt Link Parent
                              I think @dubteedub did just miss it. I joined in May too and don't think I got a message either. Of course even if we did, the docs were pretty sparse then. :P

                              I think @dubteedub did just miss it. I joined in May too and don't think I got a message either. Of course even if we did, the docs were pretty sparse then. :P

                              1 vote
                              1. dubteedub Link Parent
                                Yeah, all I remember seeing was the announcement blog post when I joined. I wasn't able to be super active when I got the invite, so I wasn't able to contribute much here again until like early...

                                Yeah, all I remember seeing was the announcement blog post when I joined. I wasn't able to be super active when I got the invite, so I wasn't able to contribute much here again until like early July I think.

                                1 vote
                    2. [3]
                      thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
                      I understand that, what I mean is who is really trusted and who is pretending to be trustworthy to unlock tools that can potentially be used for trolling?

                      I understand that, what I mean is who is really trusted and who is pretending to be trustworthy to unlock tools that can potentially be used for trolling?

                      1 vote
                      1. [2]
                        Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                        Anyone pretending to be trustworthy is going to have to play a loooong game. I reckon it'll take many months for someone to progress from brand-new user to trusted user to low-level moderator to...

                        who is pretending to be trustworthy to unlock tools that can potentially be used for trolling?

                        Anyone pretending to be trustworthy is going to have to play a loooong game. I reckon it'll take many months for someone to progress from brand-new user to trusted user to low-level moderator to high-level moderator. In my experience, trolls don't have that much patience. They'll slip up somewhere. For example, if they start using their low-level moderation powers to put silly tags on other people's posts, they're certainly not going to get the next-level power to move posts from one group to another. And so on. Each new moderator-power will only be available to people who've demonstrated they can use their lower-level moderator-powers responsibly.

                        10 votes
                        1. thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
                          That is true, most trolls don't want to wait and would probably just spend their time leaving edgy comments rather than trying to work up trust.

                          That is true, most trolls don't want to wait and would probably just spend their time leaving edgy comments rather than trying to work up trust.

          2. Flashynuff Link Parent
            Comments had tags, but they were limited to 'joke', 'flame', 'troll', and 'noise' and were mostly intended for flagging off topic comments. Some folks were using this to spam other users whose...

            Comments had tags, but they were limited to 'joke', 'flame', 'troll', and 'noise' and were mostly intended for flagging off topic comments. Some folks were using this to spam other users whose comments were on topic but they disagreed with. One of these users was banned as mentioned above, and they've since been removed until a better implementation is found that is harder to abuse.

            3 votes
  4. alexandre9099 Link
    First, the user is banned from the group, if repeated somewhere else the user should be banned from the website, IMO EDIT: or maybe like a temporary ban like 1 day or 1 week depending on the offense

    First, the user is banned from the group, if repeated somewhere else the user should be banned from the website, IMO

    EDIT: or maybe like a temporary ban like 1 day or 1 week depending on the offense

    3 votes
  5. [3]
    nsz Link
    I hope the default ban is really a ban on comments and making posts. Voting as it's only positive does not really need to be banned. It also makes sense if it's a gradual - tied into the same...

    I hope the default ban is really a ban on comments and making posts. Voting as it's only positive does not really need to be banned. It also makes sense if it's a gradual - tied into the same system that decentralises mod duties. Maybe something like a cap on comments per day before a full fledged bad also sub specific seems appropriate.

    3 votes
    1. dances-with-shills Link Parent
      Voting can also be negative: such as circle-jerking. Someone could be banned in 5 different accounts and still circle-jerk his other posts 5 times. Banned for me means banned. Your account is...

      Voting can also be negative: such as circle-jerking. Someone could be banned in 5 different accounts and still circle-jerk his other posts 5 times.

      Banned for me means banned. Your account is gone, you done fucked up good, we don't want you here, bye.

      4 votes
    2. thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
      I don't think I've ever heard of a site where voting is banned, but either way I agree.

      I don't think I've ever heard of a site where voting is banned, but either way I agree.

  6. Joshua Link
    Depending on the offense, I think there should be site wide bans. If someone is being disruptive and spewing hate at a group, they're awful people and I don't want to see them on any other group....

    Depending on the offense, I think there should be site wide bans. If someone is being disruptive and spewing hate at a group, they're awful people and I don't want to see them on any other group. They should be held accountable for their actions. If someone does something harmless like flood a specific group with memes that no one wants to see, I think they should only be banned from that group.

    3 votes
  7. [5]
    qbee Link
    I always wonder about bans, how is it enforcable that the banned user doesn't create another account and gets back into the site? Right now it's invite-only but at some point it'll be open to...

    I always wonder about bans, how is it enforcable that the banned user doesn't create another account and gets back into the site? Right now it's invite-only but at some point it'll be open to everybody. Does there need to be a cost for creating an account to stop people from smurfing?

    1 vote
    1. Amarok Link Parent
      There are options to explore here. While the site is invite only, banned users have to get a new invite code to re-join. It's not hard, it just takes time (days, possibly weeks). It's a small...

      There are options to explore here.

      While the site is invite only, banned users have to get a new invite code to re-join. It's not hard, it just takes time (days, possibly weeks). It's a small barrier to entry. Even that is more than most trolls care to invest.

      Once it's open, though, that presumes we've got the mature trust system in place. That means a new user basically has only three things they can do - comment, submit stuff, and vote. That's it. No tagging, no editing/modding, no access to any real power. Earning that will take months and earning the highest levels might take years. Also, those new users will have the lowest vote weight and no access to special stuff like the 'exemplary upvote' we've discussed. In order for them to earn any of this stuff, they have to participate well... for months at a time. Inactivity will cause rep to decay. Even when it's earned, it's only earned in the groups where they participate.

      So, basically, we're making new users into powerless gimps. This won't bother most people, I doubt they'll even notice. For most people, they aren't here to be jackasses, they are just here to join in on the conversations. That means they'll only have to go through this earning of trust once.

      For abusers, they'll have to do this every single time they get caught and outed. We won't do IP-bans because they are useless, but there are some fascinating possibilities for fingerprinting users by ip/geolocation, times they are active, browser, os, screen size - basically all of the horrible things facebook is tracking about all of its users right now. These could be used to detect ban evaders, put them on mute or limited posting.

      We'd have to discuss how comfortable people here are with us using tactics like that, it's not a very privacy-focused thing to do. If the data is short-term (like a week) and then deleted, it can reduce the privacy concerns somewhat. We could even obfuscate this info like the current email account recovery system - store a hash of the fingerprint without storing any of the actual information about the user, because all we want to do is compare the fingerprint, we don't care about the actual details.

      Some groups might limit the posting capabilities of new accounts as well. That'll depend on what mod tools we use. Comments from new accounts could be invisible for example to all but a certain tier of trusted users, marked in some way for them to review as they read the thread. A simple unhide or unhide-on-upvote system could let most users here easily approve of that new user's content. Meanwhile spammers and trolls won't get the approval.

      I don't think we have a firm plan for this sort of thing yet. We've talked about all kinds of ideas/methods, but all of them do end up punishing new users in some way, even if it's a light touch. I'm not sure there's a way to do this without treating new users as a 'risk' or 'untrusted' in some way.

      We could also do something like charge a buck a year for membership here. Fuck up, we keep the buck, nuke the account, and you get to pay to spam/troll every time. A lot of sites use this, The Well and SomethingAwful for example. It does work. That could become free depending on your level of trust, so that trusted users don't have to pay a thing, your contributions are your payment in a way.

      How will we do it? I don't know. Lots of possibilities to explore.

      8 votes
    2. [3]
      thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
      Normally IP bans would be the way to go, but even those have major pitfalls.

      Normally IP bans would be the way to go, but even those have major pitfalls.

      1. [2]
        alexandre9099 Link Parent
        IP ban is just dumb, even more dumb if the IP is dynamic, in my previous ISP (and my current ISP with some thinkering) the IP could be changed just by restarting the router, if anyone else with my...

        IP ban is just dumb, even more dumb if the IP is dynamic, in my previous ISP (and my current ISP with some thinkering) the IP could be changed just by restarting the router, if anyone else with my banned previous IP decided to use the service he/she would be banned for absolutely no reason.

        Maybe this is possible with IPv6 where each IP should correspond to one device

        3 votes