14 votes

What exactly belongs in ~creative?

Just a few minutes ago I moved this topic from ~creative to ~music, but almost immediately began second guessing my decision. I'm not exactly sure where that belongs, because it's music, but it is creative/the OP's original song. What do you think? Is ~creative more for crafts, IE woodworking and the likes, or anything creative done by the OP? Similarly, I can think of more examples for this, such as if someone wants to show off their Raspberry Pi project, do they put it in ~comp or ~creative? Where does it belong?

45 comments

  1. [23]
    hungariantoast (edited ) Link
    I would say specificity is the most important thing when deciding which group to post a topic to, so a topic about music is awfully specific and there's a ~music group so it would go there, but...

    I would say specificity is the most important thing when deciding which group to post a topic to, so a topic about music is awfully specific and there's a ~music group so it would go there, but that's too easy.

    What if I did a project with a Raspberry Pi, let's say an automatic garage door opener, and I had to do a bit of wiring and construction and other handiwork, then it would probably go in ~creative, unless that topic also included a lot of technical, computer-centric content, such as how to program the Raspberry Pi, then it should probably go into ~comp, because it specifically has technical, computer related content, mixed with some carpentry or whatever. So while it technically falls under the broad scope of ~creative, it's inclusion of technical, computer related content gives it a specificity that matches what ~comp is about. If we had a ~creative.carpentry or a ~creative.diy then this would be a little bit more difficult, but at that point I would think that Tildes would have so many topics that cross-posting topics would be warranted, whereas right now it is not (that much).

    So a topic that contains DIY or creative content, but also includes technical computer stuff, should probably go into ~comp for now.

    What if this automatic garage door opener topic only included a few basic instructions on how to setup the Raspbery Pi? What if it just said:

    "Install the Raspberry Pi OS, download this program, run it, voila."

    Then, because even though it does include content about setting up a Raspberry Pi, the content is so basic and generalized that it's not really meant for ~comp. You could argue that maybe the inclusion of a Raspberry Pi makes it more suitable for ~tech, but I would argue that DIY topics with more DIY or creative stuff than tech stuff should just go in ~creative.

    12 votes
    1. [19]
      Kiloku Link Parent
      Then again, unless we have rules against this, maybe you could post to both, and talk about different aspects of the subject with each group

      Then again, unless we have rules against this, maybe you could post to both, and talk about different aspects of the subject with each group

      4 votes
      1. [18]
        Amarok Link Parent
        I imagine we could do some pretty interesting things with crossposting as well. Sometimes a topic is appropriate for more than one group - the tags will tell the tale. Crossposts don't have to be...

        I imagine we could do some pretty interesting things with crossposting as well. Sometimes a topic is appropriate for more than one group - the tags will tell the tale. Crossposts don't have to be as primitive as they are on other sites, either. They don't have to be a mere copy of a link starting again from nothing.

        If you're publishing your own music and just starting out, you probably don't want to put it in ~music. When that happens on reddit, we end up with hundreds of submissions that are ignored and a new queue that, frankly, is mostly full of amateur music that most people have no interesting in listening to. Nobody starts out as a music superstar with their first attempts. Honing that craft is a long road.

        The history of the listentothis melting pot tells the sad story of how this content is received in a musical critic/listener oriented community. Spend some time in those threads and you'll see that while a hell of a lot of people have music they've created that they want to share, almost no one is interested in actually sifting through it all to find the gems. No one is interested in commenting - they all want to share, and none of them want to listen. It's borderline spam, in a way, without the malice. We had to move this into the melting pot in listentothis because people were complaining every week that the content of listentothis' new queue was almost complete garbage. The users kicked this content out of every place on reddit that it ever appeared, and even places like /r/thisisourmusic and /r/theseareouralbums remain relative ghost towns despite having existed for years.

        So how do we solve this problem? That's kind of what ~creative is intended to be, a 'hey I made this' sort of place. Perhaps there a community can form that actually takes the time to foster positive feedback and constructive criticism of the content that people create and share there. It's no exaggeration to say that even minuscule amounts of early constructive feedback can make or break any artist's career.

        Since ~creative is an entire hierarchy of its own, that's also joining all of those creative people across all artistic disciplines into one place where they will interact. Perhaps it'll finally reach the critical mass necessary for it to become a vibrant community, something such places never seemed to achieve or hold on to for long on reddit. That's the kind of place you can share your creations and find an honestly receptive community.

        Say a great track shows up in ~creative.music. The editors of that place might choose to re-publish that same thread into ~music, creating a sort of highway for the tracks that rise above 'amateur' work to reach a larger audience of harsher critics. That crosspost could have more than one comment section attached - the one from creative, and a new one started when it was crossposted. That thread could start above zero or highlighted in some way, to let people know it's a crosspost that's already sparked interest elsewhere (and so people not interested could filter these out).

        This idea of having multi-homed submissions that exist and foster simultaneous discussions in multiple places at the same time, and travel from one community to another over time, is an evolution of crossposting beyond what we've seen on other websites. I'm not sure what the final form would be, but clearly there's an avenue here worth exploring, and as we play with the idea and create systems to manage it, we'll find out what works.

        10 votes
        1. [17]
          Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
          This seems over-engineered and complicated. Why not just put music in ~music and be done with it? Don't make people have to guess whether their particular music post is amateur enough for...

          This seems over-engineered and complicated. Why not just put music in ~music and be done with it? Don't make people have to guess whether their particular music post is amateur enough for ~creative or professional enough for ~music - just give them one place to post music. Don't make people search in one place for amateur music and another place for professional music - just give them one place to find music.

          If necessary, you can categorise the types of music within ~music, with tags like "amateur" and "professional".

          We have a home for music. Let's put all music in ~music.

          3 votes
          1. [11]
            Whom Link Parent
            As Amarok said, that's not what people in these kinds of communities typically want, and it ends up being more like spam. The only thing they'd have to know is if they made the music being posted...

            Why not just put music in ~music and be done with it?

            As Amarok said, that's not what people in these kinds of communities typically want, and it ends up being more like spam.

            Don't make people have to guess whether their particular music post is amateur enough for ~creative or professional enough for ~music.

            The only thing they'd have to know is if they made the music being posted themselves, which I think we can reasonably expect. It's not complicated: Post your music to ~creative, and if the powers that be (whatever that is at any point in time) think it rises above other original work, it might be crossposted to reach a general music-listening audience.

            Now, having it work like this doesn't necessarily require that place to be ~creative, it could easily be a group below ~music depending on how that ends up working, but I personally find it much simpler and accomodating from a usability standpoint if there's a place to see what creative projects Tildes users have been creating themselves. The point of interest if I'm looking for that kind of thing is the fact that it's made by someone here who's trying to get some feedback or attention, not necessarily the kind of media that it is.

            8 votes
            1. [10]
              Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
              And I personally find it much simpler and accomodating from a usability standpoint if there's one place to see what music is available on Tildes. The point of interest if I'm looking for that kind...

              And I personally find it much simpler and accomodating from a usability standpoint if there's one place to see what music is available on Tildes. The point of interest if I'm looking for that kind of thing is the fact that it's music for me to listen to.

              You and @Amarok are categorising posts by source (who made it), I'm categorising posts by type (what is it). They're both valid methods. It's all subjective, after all.

              2 votes
              1. [9]
                Whom Link Parent
                Oh, totally. My bad if I made it sound like I thought Amarok's suggestion was objectively better or something.

                Oh, totally. My bad if I made it sound like I thought Amarok's suggestion was objectively better or something.

                2 votes
                1. [8]
                  Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                  You weren't making it sound like Amarok's suggestion is objectively better. I'm pointing out that there is no objective basis on which to make these decisions. It will only ever come down to...

                  You weren't making it sound like Amarok's suggestion is objectively better. I'm pointing out that there is no objective basis on which to make these decisions. It will only ever come down to people's subjective opinions.

                  1 vote
                  1. [7]
                    Amarok Link Parent
                    The only reason I bring it up is because we tried rather a lot of things to help this sort of content (specifically, people sharing music they made themselves) and all of it ended up ignored into...

                    The only reason I bring it up is because we tried rather a lot of things to help this sort of content (specifically, people sharing music they made themselves) and all of it ended up ignored into oblivion. The melting pot is the most successful incarnation we've managed. It never worked out well as groups of its own and that failure has always fascinated me. That effect has to be a human social networking quirk that we've just never quite managed to unravel. Something about how people react to this class of content is peculiar.

                    Tildes is taking a rather bold and very different approach to the problem by having ~creative as a top level community. I don't know if that's the right way, but at this point, anything different is good in my book. Time will tell as we see what sort of community grows there and how their social network effects manifest in that hierarchy.

                    4 votes
                    1. [2]
                      mundane_and_naive (edited ) Link Parent
                      I hope I can offer my perspective as a casual visitor. I checked out r/listentothis a while ago but never participated in anyway. I thought the music there was just not what I liked. I did not...

                      The melting pot is the most successful incarnation we've managed. It never worked out well as groups of its own and that failure has always fascinated me.

                      I hope I can offer my perspective as a casual visitor. I checked out r/listentothis a while ago but never participated in anyway. I thought the music there was just not what I liked. I did not know at the time that the intention behind melting pot is to give a space for beginner works so perhaps I've judged it with the wrong mindset. However, thinking back on it, I wouldn't have done anything differently. The experience mostly felt like a 'whatever' for me: 'the music sounds kind of bad so I shouldn't vote on it, but I don't know anything about music myself so I shouldn't say anything either, let's just ignore it and move on.'

                      This to me seems like a more fundamental problem than just music sharing. The majority of creation is amateur, but the majority of people wants high quality content. If we just put everyone and everything into a free-for-all sharing space, it's understandable that the overall contents would look bad, while the overall opinions would be negative. The minority of people who is willing to engage in amateurish works not only needs to be experienced enough to know what they're talking about (not necessarily professional btw), but also compassionate enough to offer constructive feedback. If we want to help budding new creators, we should somehow focus their exposure to this group of people only, weeding out the noise from uninterested parties.

                      A while ago, I had a suggestion that seems fitting for this purpose. In short, every group would have a dedicated subgroup where most submissions are forced to go into but can only be voted and commented by trusted members of the group. Only posts that gather enough traction will bubble out to the larger group where they can then be freely engaged with by any visitors. This way, casual viewers won't be exposed to the large amount of low quality works if they don't want to, while posters are guaranteed to get initial feedback from those who matter most.

                      3 votes
                      1. Amarok (edited ) Link Parent
                        That's rather how I imagined the 'mod' backroom would work, ~groupname.gov or something like that. I think it's important to give trusted group members their own communication space. They always...

                        That's rather how I imagined the 'mod' backroom would work, ~groupname.gov or something like that. I think it's important to give trusted group members their own communication space. They always build one so we might as well facilitate that tendency. It didn't occur to me to set something up like this for the 'knights of new' crowd as well. I expect those two sets of users would have a lot of overlap.

                        We have the group/subgroup 'bubble up' concept for sorting quality. I think that'll draw casual users to the tops of hierarchies (to see the 'best' stuff in each) and more interested/focused users will go for the smaller subgroups. This has a similar effect - most content will eventually be submitted to the smaller groups where it'll be voted on and discussed by them before it levels up into the more general parent group (if it levels up at all). As the largest parent groups age and grow (to millions of members) they'll naturally become more focused on promoting from below than having people submit directly to the root levels. That should help keep the crowd at bay. It might flip reddit's 'defaults are all crap' on its head, if the only things that make it to the root have already had this quality vetting phase, possibly multiple times if something has to go through five groups to get to the top.

                        5 votes
                    2. [4]
                      Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                      If I was the type of person who searched for music on a forum-type site, I would go straight to a group called "music". I am the sort of person who would search for books on a forum-type site, and...

                      If I was the type of person who searched for music on a forum-type site, I would go straight to a group called "music".

                      I am the sort of person who would search for books on a forum-type site, and I would go straight to a group called "books".

                      I'm not going to see any self-published music or books hidden away under ~creative.

                      It's like... "There's this music shop over here, but if you want to find off-beat music, you have to go that arts collective over there." I'm not going to go to both places, and if I'm going to pick only one place to shop for music, it'll be the place that specialises in music.

                      I know you're talking about cross-posting from ~creative.music to ~music, but there's a filtering process in place: only a subjectively selected subset of music posted in ~creative.music would be visible in ~music. Why does everyone else's music get excluded from the place where people are most likely to look for music?

                      2 votes
                      1. [3]
                        Amarok Link Parent
                        It's more like "That's the music shop over there, and it's a tough crowd. If you're making your own music, though, head over to this public studio where everyone who is trying to make music can...

                        It's more like "That's the music shop over there, and it's a tough crowd. If you're making your own music, though, head over to this public studio where everyone who is trying to make music can help guide you and show you how to improve. Then, when you're done and have a finished product, head over to the music shop and share it."

                        The mods of l2t didn't get it into their heads one day that we had to demarcate amateur music from professional music. The users demanded it, repeatedly in many threads, and with a tone of 'this is going to turn into a riot if you don't do something about the music quality'. The reason given was 'everything on /new sucks, why do we even come here' and as someone who listens to a lot of music in a lot of styles, they had a point. More than half of it was drek. There is such a thing as objectively bad music - amateurs make a lot of it before they find their stride.

                        I see no reason that exact dynamic won't replay here, or on any other forum that's focused on music streams.

                        6 votes
                        1. [2]
                          Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                          You're the music expert. I'll have to bow to your experience in this area. I'll keep my eye out for other instances of people trying to split one type of content across two groups.

                          You're the music expert. I'll have to bow to your experience in this area.

                          I'll keep my eye out for other instances of people trying to split one type of content across two groups.

                          1. Amarok Link Parent
                            I've been wracking my brain and the only other parallel I can see is how some people feel about self promotion - aggressively fighting it as spam like some communities do. I think the two are...

                            I've been wracking my brain and the only other parallel I can see is how some people feel about self promotion - aggressively fighting it as spam like some communities do. I think the two are related - we've never really seen a good solution to the 'self promotion' problem. I'm hoping over time, ~creative can find a way forward there too. That hierarchy might end up teaching us a few things, maybe even surprising us.

                            2 votes
          2. [4]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. [3]
              Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
              If I'm looking for music, I will go to ~music. I therefore probably won't find your music if you post it in ~creative.

              If I'm looking for music, I will go to ~music. I therefore probably won't find your music if you post it in ~creative.

              1. [3]
                Comment deleted by author
                Link Parent
                1. [2]
                  Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                  Why do you make music, if not for other people to hear it?

                  Why do you make music, if not for other people to hear it?

                  1. Bishop Link Parent
                    i remember you asking me a similar question some weeks back - regarding my poetry and the absolute painstaking lack of capitalization 😉 im with @Nephrited on this one in a few different ways. on...

                    i remember you asking me a similar question some weeks back - regarding my poetry and the absolute painstaking lack of capitalization 😉

                    im with @Nephrited on this one in a few different ways.

                    on categorization - if i want people to find my poems to be enjoyed as a professional, fully fleshed-out piece of literary work, i'll post in in ~humanities. if i want my music to be enjoyed as a professional, finalized track, i'll post it in ~music. if i'd rather submit either for feedback from other creatives, collect any insight if it's given, and share amongst other artists, i'll post to ~creative.

                    as for the question of "why do X if not directly to be consumed by other people" - well, that's a whole other can of worms we could open a ~talk post for.

                    4 votes
          3. [2]
            clerical_terrors Link Parent
            Discussing a piece made by a third party and giving/receiving critique on work are different forms of engagement though. A lot of the discussion of recent albums on ~music is likely not going to...

            Discussing a piece made by a third party and giving/receiving critique on work are different forms of engagement though. A lot of the discussion of recent albums on ~music is likely not going to be requested by or directly addressed at the creators.

            3 votes
            1. Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
              As I recently wrote in a slightly different context, I think of a "music" group as a bucket for all music-related content. I wouldn't separate it into music-for-professionals and...

              As I recently wrote in a slightly different context, I think of a "music" group as a bucket for all music-related content. I wouldn't separate it into music-for-professionals and music-for-amateurs. That seems like an artificial and unnecessary division to me.

    2. [3]
      thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
      That's a good answer. It's a fine line to walk, huh? If you get too technical, or just not technical enough, it may completely change which group it belongs in. It's still hard to say, I think,...

      That's a good answer. It's a fine line to walk, huh? If you get too technical, or just not technical enough, it may completely change which group it belongs in. It's still hard to say, I think, especially because mods might disagree, and then be fighting over which group something belongs in. I think some official word from @Deimos on the matter might be useful, but overall I agree with you and think now that it probably does belong in ~music.

      2 votes
      1. [2]
        hungariantoast (edited ) Link Parent
        Oh yeah, in some cases it is a very fine line, but there's also another way to determine which group a topic should go in to that sometimes conflicts with my suggestion above. When you're posting...

        Oh yeah, in some cases it is a very fine line, but there's also another way to determine which group a topic should go in to that sometimes conflicts with my suggestion above.

        When you're posting a topic in a group, and it could realistically fit in several different groups, you should choose the group whose subject really highlights the aspect of your topic that you want to shine.

        So if I make a topic about an automatic garage door opener and it includes technical info about setting up the Raspberry Pi and the sensors and the construction and the wiring and the whatever else, I think you could still get away with posting it to ~creative if you want the focus of the topic to be the DIY work, not the computer work, even though the specificity matches the ~comp group. If you as the author want to really highlight and discuss the DIY, creative part of your topic and not the technical, computer parts, then posting in ~creative is the way to go.

        I don't know if this tactic is at odds with how Deimos intends groups to work, and it can (like the other solution) walk a very fine line on what is acceptable to post where, as a topic with a little bit of DIY and a lot of computer stuff might not be appropriate for ~creative even if that's what the author wants to talk about. So, the amount of content per subject is still important when you're mixing and matching and don't know where to post, but I think we'll be fine if we have some leniency on what should go where.

        A lot of these issues clear up once the amount of topics increases, because by the time cross-posting topics becomes warranted users can just go wild and post their topics to their hearts desire, in the right groups of course.

        Or really, they could even do that now and it would probably be fine, but the comment section might suffer as the discussion is split in two.

        There are also other things, like merging duplicate topics from acress multiple groups into one topic in one group, or meta-threads that combine comment sections into one topic, but the meta-topic is still accessible from two different links in two different groups, but that's a lot more technical and probably deserves its own thread, eventually.

        2 votes
        1. thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
          Very true. For right now though, it probably isn't a big deal, and the user can more or less post where they want and the moderators can more or less adjust as they want without hindering...

          Very true. For right now though, it probably isn't a big deal, and the user can more or less post where they want and the moderators can more or less adjust as they want without hindering discussion or anything, really. Crossposting would be a nice feature, but it might not be necessary until we have more content and hierarchical groups. Personally, hierarchical groups are something I am really excited for and would love to see.

          I especially think ~comp could use some subgroups, though I may be biased because it's my favourite group and a topic I'm interested in, but I do believe that a ~comp.nix, possibly in a ~comp.software and such would be nice. Again though, it's probably not really a priority until more discussion takes off and such. It'll be cool to see though.

          2 votes
  2. [6]
    Bishop Link
    hey that's me! hi me! i actually had the same debate at first hahaha - i figured it leaned slightly more towards creative because it was a personal project, and ~music seems more geared towards...

    hey that's me! hi me!

    i actually had the same debate at first hahaha - i figured it leaned slightly more towards creative because it was a personal project, and ~music seems more geared towards finished projects/full tracks from established artists.

    guess you could say that thisonemakesyouthink huh

    7 votes
    1. [5]
      thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
      Oh hey. Yeah, I'm still not entirely sure, but I believe ~creative would be more for sort of handy, craftsman type stuff. Like, making a bench or a door would belong in ~creative while showing off...

      Oh hey. Yeah, I'm still not entirely sure, but I believe ~creative would be more for sort of handy, craftsman type stuff. Like, making a bench or a door would belong in ~creative while showing off your song would belong in ~music. I think eventually, we'll probably get the ability to crosspost so you could post in both ~creative and ~music, but until then I think ~music seems fitting.

      2 votes
      1. Bishop Link Parent
        ahaha - i'm not too caught up in where it goes, no worries. i'm just happy to share. hopefully soon i'll have some complete projects that just belong in ~music by default 😉

        ahaha - i'm not too caught up in where it goes, no worries. i'm just happy to share.

        hopefully soon i'll have some complete projects that just belong in ~music by default 😉

        2 votes
      2. [3]
        SunSpotter Link Parent
        Makes me wonder what will become of the main groups like creative if/when Tildes becomes big enough to support independent craftsman groups and other such creative endeavors. Will we evolve beyond...

        Makes me wonder what will become of the main groups like creative if/when Tildes becomes big enough to support independent craftsman groups and other such creative endeavors. Will we evolve beyond the need for a catch all group and just shut it down? Or will we decide that it's worthwhile to keep it going?

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          hungariantoast Link Parent
          The Topic Tagging and Groups sections on the Mechanics page in the docs talk a little bit about this, in case you haven't read those yet, but I don't think they explicitly outline how new...

          The Topic Tagging and Groups sections on the Mechanics page in the docs talk a little bit about this, in case you haven't read those yet, but I don't think they explicitly outline how new subgroups are going to come about and honestly, I'm not sure if that's been officially determined yet either. (I'd have to guess that it hasn't, since it's so far off from happening at the moment)

          Anyways, from the early discussions I think that I remember reading, the creation of subgroups is largely going to be based off of the frequency of the use of tags that would lend to their creation.

          So, in ~games we may have a ton of topics (posts) about roleplaying games in 2019 and 2020, so we might see a ~games.roleplaying sprout up after so many topics have been made with the roleplaying, rpg, or roleplaying games tags. Then, let's say that in 2021 we get a huge wave of isometric RPGs, causing tons of topics to be made with the tags rpg.iso or rpg.isometric, then we could have yet another subgroup, ~games.roleplaying.isometric be created.

          Now, what I am not entirely sure about, is how posting topics to these subgroups will work. If you post a topic to ~games and tag it with roleplaying and isometric, it will probably be moved by a moderator, specifically to the ~games.roleplaying.isometric subgroup, but that's perfectly fine, because any topics posted in the subgroups for ~games will naturally filter up and be viewable from the ~games group itself. So if you wanted to view topics about all games, you would go to ~games. If you wanted to only view topics about sandbox games, you would go to ~games.sandbox, where only topics posted to that subgroup and subgroups below it would be viewable. The real kicker though, is that it may be possible to automatically route topics to the correct subgroups based only on their tags. So remember how at the beginning of this paragraph I said that you posted a topic to ~games tagged with the roleplaying and isometric tags? Well, based on those tags, your topic could automatically be sent to the ~games.roleplaying.isometric subgroup, without requiring you to have to navigate and post it there manually, you could just post it directly to ~games. Now, building an automatic system like that requires precise tagging, so I don't know if it's every going to be a feature, I am just brainstorming at this point, but these are the kinds of things that are programmatically possible through the tagging and subgroup system.

          Now, this is a complicated system even without the inclusion of automatic topic migrations based on tags, and I mentioned moderators moving topics around earlier, so how will that work? Who gets to be the moderator?

          Well, the answer is, you do! Yeah, that's right, you me, and anyone else gets to earn trust by voting on topics, tagging comments and topics appropriately, and otherwise participating in Tildes in a way that doesn't make a mess of things. So with enough trust or "goodwill" you might be able to move topics around and add or remove tags on topics. If you mess up and do something wrong, that trust might be revoked or lowered, though I don't think we've discussed how that's exactly going to work yet.

          4 votes
          1. SunSpotter Link Parent
            Thanks, I hadn't actually read those yet but I've now since read them and I have to say it's all very interesting. I'd kind of hoped for a system like this, it just seems natural to let...

            Thanks, I hadn't actually read those yet but I've now since read them and I have to say it's all very interesting. I'd kind of hoped for a system like this, it just seems natural to let communities break off as tags become more common.

            1 vote
  3. [16]
    Algernon_Asimov (edited ) Link
    I've been treating ~creative as a combination of ~arts and ~diy and ~crafts: it's for anything that people have made themselves. However, as @hungariantoast rightly points out, where there is a a...

    I've been treating ~creative as a combination of ~arts and ~diy and ~crafts: it's for anything that people have made themselves.

    However, as @hungariantoast rightly points out, where there is a a more specific group, it's better to use that - and we have a group for ~music.

    EDIT: Oops. Usernames are not groups!

    1 vote
    1. [15]
      thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
      Yeah, fair enough. By the way, did you mean @hungariantoast? That would be a weird group name.

      Yeah, fair enough. By the way, did you mean @hungariantoast? That would be a weird group name.

      1 vote
      1. [13]
        hungariantoast (edited ) Link Parent
        A way to compile links on your user profile for others to quickly find and navigate to and from, like a nexus, would be a very cool, "late game" feature for Tildes, that would be really useful for...

        A way to compile links on your user profile for others to quickly find and navigate to and from, like a nexus, would be a very cool, "late game" feature for Tildes, that would be really useful for content creators.

        This is very easily doable through user bios though, no reason to create a whole new "highlighted content" tab or some nonsense to accomplish what a text field and some markdown can.

        Something I've wanted to do for a long time now is start publishing in-depth guides on subjects that I am passionate or knowledgeable about, because that gives me an excuse to do some writing, but I am not creative enough for constant blogging.

        So this would be stuff like, "how to play Dwarf Fortress" or "how to get started with Emacs" or "how to prepare your miata for the racetrack."

        Just long, in-depth, easy to follow guides on a bunch of random subjects that I like to write about and am knowledgeable enough to teach other people how to get started with.

        So while personal subgroups would be overkill, letting us have a bio section on our profile page, where we can compile topics for people to quickly find, regardless of that topic's age, would be pretty cool.

        Sorry, but your comment just kind of gave me that idea, so I figured I might as well spit it out.

        Lobsters actually does this; gives users a bio section on their profile page, and I've personally been directed to a user's bio to see more neat topics by them before. It's a very convenient feature for users who might constantly have to direct users looking for other content.

        3 votes
        1. [3]
          thisonemakesyouthink Link Parent
          Vim btw. No but really, I think user groups is essentially what Reddit did, and that didn't prove to be great for discussion. It sounds like you'd be better off posting those on ~games, ~comp,...

          Emacs

          Vim btw. No but really, I think user groups is essentially what Reddit did, and that didn't prove to be great for discussion. It sounds like you'd be better off posting those on ~games, ~comp, etc. Reddit also has pinned posts, where you can make a post you shared appear at the top of your profile. That might be what you're looking for.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            hungariantoast (edited ) Link Parent
            Yeah that's what I meant, I just did a poor job of explaining it. So I would totally post stuff where it's supposed to go, ~tech, ~books, ~whatever, but similar to how we can bookmark stuff right...

            Yeah that's what I meant, I just did a poor job of explaining it. So I would totally post stuff where it's supposed to go, ~tech, ~books, ~whatever, but similar to how we can bookmark stuff right now, I would be able to add those topics to my profile, for people to see.

            So while the topics still get posted in the groups like they do now, users have the convenient option of publicly compiling a list of topics and comments that others users can quickly browse just by going to their profile.

            Of course, bios on user pages could allow us to do this just as easily, especially if bios support markdown.

            The reason I brought this up in the first place is that, if I made a bunch of guides and posted them all over Tildes, there's no convenient way on Tildes itself to link all of those topics, except in a comment, which can quickly clutter up a thread.

            You also cannot browse an entire user's history since there is no pagination on a user profile page, except for your own, and I don't know if that will ever change either.

            1 vote
            1. Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
              As far as I know, this is on the "to do" list.

              You also cannot browse an entire user's history since there is no pagination on a user profile page, except for your own, and I don't know if that will ever change either.

              As far as I know, this is on the "to do" list.

              2 votes
        2. [9]
          Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
          Just post these guides in the relevant groups: ~games, ~comp, ~sports. Like the "a layperson's guide to..." posts that some people have been making. Why hide these things away in your own personal...

          So this would be stuff like, "how to play Dwarf Fortress" or "how to get started with Emacs" or "how to prepare your miata for the racetrack."

          Just post these guides in the relevant groups: ~games, ~comp, ~sports. Like the "a layperson's guide to..." posts that some people have been making.

          Why hide these things away in your own personal group, where people won't think to look for them? Why not put them in the relevant groups, where people can find them?

          1 vote
          1. [8]
            hungariantoast (edited ) Link Parent
            Oh I would still post them to the appropriate groups like normal, my bad for not explaining it better. It's just that, there's currently no way to easily compile your topics that you have made on...

            Oh I would still post them to the appropriate groups like normal, my bad for not explaining it better.

            It's just that, there's currently no way to easily compile your topics that you have made on Tildes for other users to read, without posting a comment in a thread to each individual person who asks you about it, which can be a problem for content creators who come to interact with users on the site.

            There are a bunch of different ways to do this, but none of them are clean.

            Take this post on /r/roguelikedev

            At the bottom of it, there's a link to the previous "Sharing Saturday" posts, which is really just a URL for a Reddit search results page, and that page doesn't even list all of the "Sharing Saturday" posts at once. It's paginated, takes a while to navigate through, and isn't always accurate. It's a pretty bad solution for linking to a bunch of other posts, frankly. However, subreddits can create their own wiki and that solves all of the issues I just mentioned, but that's specific to a subreddit, and Tildes' groups don't have wikis, we just have Kat's for now.

            So, if I have posted thirty or so topics on Tildes, and I want to compile them all into a quick, easy, readable list for people, the only thing I can do right now is put those links in a comment, which I then have to include with every subsequent topic I make. It would be much easier if I could just say "Hey! Want to see the rest of my "guides" topics? Go check out my profile!" and all of the prior topics can be found there.

            So it isn't removing or hiding topics inside of user profiles, as much as it is allowing us to make our profiles a central point from which a bunch of links to other URLs can be found, like Tildes topics or comments we want to highlight to any visitors.

            We could do this with bios, which could easily be constructed as a wiki on a user's page, or as a separate tab on each user's profile, specifically for topics and comments they want to make readily accessible to other users from their profile, regardless of age.

            Personally, the more I write about this, the more I like the idea of just using a theoretical bio section on a user profile to do this.

            1 vote
            1. [3]
              Amarok Link Parent
              I've wondered about this too. I don't think there's any harm in giving users a bio/wiki or some kind of a profile so they can do this stuff... however, at what point does this start making the...

              I've wondered about this too. I don't think there's any harm in giving users a bio/wiki or some kind of a profile so they can do this stuff... however, at what point does this start making the site about the individual users, rather than the groups/communities? Do we let users follow each other like on twitter? How far do we go? Is there a 'too far' point where the groups end up taking a back seat? I think reddit's aiming in that direction lately and I'm kinda curious how that all plays out.

              3 votes
              1. [2]
                hungariantoast Link Parent
                Actually, this could be a really good thing that benefits Tildes in the long run. Once again, I am going to use Lobsters as an example, because they do this pretty well. Bios that let users talk...

                at what point does this start making the site about the individual users

                Actually, this could be a really good thing that benefits Tildes in the long run.

                Once again, I am going to use Lobsters as an example, because they do this pretty well.

                Bios that let users talk about themselves a little bit are great for getting an idea of who it is your are talking to, and helps make the site a little more personal.

                For instance, there's a Mozilla employee (at least, there's one that we know of) who uses Tildes pretty regularly, and I have them tagged as a Mozilla employee (using tildes-extended) so I can make sure I never say something really stupid to them, and also so that I can take their word at a little bit higher trust than I might otherwise.

                We previously discussed hats for Tildes users a long time ago and this is kind of a similar benefit. Bios would let users really flesh out what they want people to know about them on Tildes, and that could be a good thing for discussion.

                2 votes
                1. Amarok Link Parent
                  I'm in for the bios and users having their own wiki pages for sure. That's not even a hard thing since integrating a wiki is on the todo list for the future. I'm only worried about what we tell...

                  I'm in for the bios and users having their own wiki pages for sure. That's not even a hard thing since integrating a wiki is on the todo list for the future. I'm only worried about what we tell everyone when they inevitably get the bright idea that users need to follow each other, or start requesting other user-centric features on a group-centric website. I think we need to be careful - Tildes should put the group/community first.

                  We can attach a Mastodon instance and other external open source services to the Tildes identity system for the rest. ;)

                  3 votes
            2. [4]
              Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
              Why can't you just use the "a layperson's guide to..." tag like other people have? Or we could create another tag for everyone's "how to" guides. Why do your "guides" posts need to be kept...

              It would be much easier if I could just say "Hey! Want to see the rest of my "guides" posts? Go check out my profile!" and all of the prior posts can be there.

              Why can't you just use the "a layperson's guide to..." tag like other people have? Or we could create another tag for everyone's "how to" guides.

              Why do your "guides" posts need to be kept separate from other people's "guides" posts?

              3 votes
              1. [3]
                hungariantoast (edited ) Link Parent
                So let me back up, and start over. The reason I first advocated having bios on user profiles was so that I could write in a bunch of links for other people to find, using my profile as a staging...

                Why can't you just use the "a layperson's guide to..." tag like other people have?

                So let me back up, and start over. The reason I first advocated having bios on user profiles was so that I could write in a bunch of links for other people to find, using my profile as a staging area to navigate to all of those other links, which can be kept in a list, table, or any other format that markdown would allow, would not be paginated, and would not be editable or otherwise at the whims of others. That last part is important.

                So let's say I've got my alt-account and I am posting my guides sort of like blog posts and it's great, people love them, they're fairly popular, and they generate a lot of discussion each time one is posted. If I didn't have a bio on my user profile to where others could find links to all of my previous "guide" topics on Tildes, I would have to include that list at the top of each new topic, or I would have to individually link them to people when they ask, or perhaps, I could create a topic in ~test that would contain all of those links and direct people to that, but all of these situations are more cumbersome than just being able to have a bio on my profile and ~test could get nuked at any moment.

                Unless, like you said, just use a tag right? But which tag? Which tag allows a user to click it and find only my topics, separate from other topics that other users may have made? Well, in order to feasibly do that I would have to have a title for this collection of guides, let's say it's "Hungariantoast's Guide to Everything" and I tag each of my relevant topics on Tildes with "hungariantoast's guide to everything."

                So then, yes, if that tag is on each topic, then a user can click that tag and find all of the topics made by me, and even topics made by others on the same subject, but a moderator could easily remove those tags, and if there are enough topics with that tag, created by me or otherwise, then the results for it become paginated. As you might have guessed, this also enables the search function to do its job.

                The issue is, none of this is good enough. If I am making a bunch of topics as part of the same series, I don't want other users to have to search around and use volatile means (which tags are, because they are not explicitly controlled by me) to find them, I want them to know that they can go to my profile, check my bio, and there will be an up-to-date, chronological list of every Tildes topic I have made in the series, formatted however I see fit, entirely unchanged except by me, safe and reliable.

                So sure, I can tag my topics with as many tags as I want, like the name of my series (hungariantoast's guide to everything), which part (one, two, eight) of which guide it is (how to locate new stars, fly an airplane, reload ammunition), as well as what the topic is, in this case a "how to" or "guide" tag like you mentioned, would probably fit the bill. That way, alongside tagging with specificity, in order to identify this topic as my guide, it is easily also recognizable as being a "how to" topic or whatever else.

                Yet, if I am publishing multiple part series on various subjects over the course of a year, it will be cumbersome for a user to find the first topic and start from there, unless they could just check my profile and find every single topic I have ever made about that series and others. It's just a better solution for centralized linking to other content on Tildes than any other system the site currently has, and in this case it is focused on the topics of a single user, though that doesn't have to be the case.

                Someone else could be compiling a list of "best of Tildes" for content that goes above and beyond, and they wouldn't have anywhere to put it that could be readily accessible to other users, except for a bio. They'd have to make topics or comments to keep it updated and finding it would be more strenuous.

                If Tildes got bios, I'd imagine they'd be the same 50,000 character limit text box that we have for comments. There's a lot of info that can go into 50,000 characters. I'll let you do the imaginative task of determining why that would be a valuable addition to the site.

                Why do your "guides" posts need to be kept separate from other people's "guides" posts?

                Because if one of my guides is written in episodic parts and someone finds one of the later parts and wants to start from the beginning, there isn't a clean and clear way to easily direct them to the first part of that series. Sure, they could look for other "guide" or "how to" topics, but then they have to sort through stuff that they aren't looking for. I'd have to scream at the top of my lungs at the beginning or end of every topic with a giant list of links to all the other parts, which is clutter. Instead, it's much nicer and easier to just tell people to check out my bio.

                Overall, what I really just want is a place, on Tildes, to refer people to links of other topics and comments in a centralized place. Like I already said, bios offer a lot of possibilities for content, and there is so much more that could be done with them than just what I would use them for, but that's another subject.

                I hope I have answered all of your questions, let me know if you have anymore.

                4 votes
                1. [2]
                  Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
                  This is where I fail to understand the need. If you and other people are writing guides, such as the group of people who contributed to the "layperson's guide to..." posts, why do your guides need...

                  Which tag allows a user to click it and find only my topics, separate from other topics that other users may have made?

                  This is where I fail to understand the need. If you and other people are writing guides, such as the group of people who contributed to the "layperson's guide to..." posts, why do your guides need to separated from other people's guides? If you've all written various "how to" guides, why can't your guides be grouped with everyone else's guides under this "how to" tag? What's the need for your guides to be singled out and treated differently?

                  In wider terms, what you're proposing seems to be edging towards having people follow users on Tildes, rather than putting content first.

                  Because if one of my guides is written in episodic parts and someone finds one of the later parts and wants to start from the beginning, there isn't a clean and clear way to easily direct them to the first part of that series.

                  Are you planning to publish a whole book on Tildes, with each chapter being a separate post? :P Maybe you need to find a different platform if that's your intention.

                  However, if you need to link people back to the first post in the series, just include a single link in each post to the first post in the series. And, after completing each new post, you can edit the immediately preceding post to include a link to the succeeding post. So, all posts (after the first one) would have two - and only two - links: a link to the first post, and a link to the next post. That allows people to jump back to the beginning from any post, and then read them all in succession.

                  Overall, what I really just want is a place, on Tildes, to refer people to links of other topics and comments in a centralized place.

                  There was a previous attempt at creating an informal wiki. I've just checked and it has since been closed. Would a wiki suit your purposes?

                  2 votes
                  1. hungariantoast Link Parent
                    Because they would be my guides. I would be the author of them, and I would want them to be identifiable as part of a series of topics that I would routinely post on Tildes. I don't want to make a...

                    why do your guides need to separated from other people's guides?

                    Because they would be my guides. I would be the author of them, and I would want them to be identifiable as part of a series of topics that I would routinely post on Tildes. I don't want to make a bunch of guides and just tag them with how to or guide, I want to make sure that, at least in addition to those tags, the topics that I post as part of my guide series have a unique tag that identifies that posted topic as mine.

                    Let's say an author of a web serial updates their story bi-weekly, and every time they update their story they post it directly to ~books as well as to their own website. It would make sense for them to tag their topic posted on Tildes with the title of their web serial would it not?

                    While the "layperson's guide to..." topics that have been posted are great, they're not in the format I would like to use for my topics. The guides I post here would be my own work, not a collaborative project with other users on Tildes, though I would obviously accept corrections and suggestions, as well as use version control for pull requests, but the idea I have for writing guides would be to post to Tildes first, then post to my own website later, and then to Reddit, Lobsters, Hacker News, wherever else afterwards.

                    The kind of guides I want to write would be extensive, large enough that I would have no choice but to write them in episodic "parts" which I could imagine I would post as topics to Tildes monthly, and to my own site and other places after the Tildes topic has received feedback.

                    So these aren't just topics being posted to Tildes, these guides are a passion project, of which at least one I want to tackle, and they would be directly tied to my name and even included on my resume. They go far beyond the relatively simple (but still great, don't get me wrong) guide topics that other users have submitted to Tildes.

                    Regardless of all of that, even if I wasn't going to host these guides as a series on my own, personal website, even if I was just going to post them directly to Tildes and forget about them forever afterwards, if I wanted to title the series with a name and add a tag to make it uniquely searchable (just like the layperson topics did) then I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It would obviously be a unique series of topics, why shouldn't they be tagged uniquely, in addition to the normal guide or how to tags?

                    In wider terms, what you're proposing seems to be edging towards having people follow users on Tildes, rather than putting content first.

                    A following/followers function, profile bios does not make. In this comment thread I am doing nothing more than presenting one use case for bios on user profiles, of which there are many more. Implementing bios isn't a slippery slope and plenty of other, similar sites to Tildes have them without detracting from the focus of the site.

                    Are you planning to publish a whole book on Tildes, with each chapter being a separate post?

                    Some of the subjects that I would like to cover could possbily expand to become book-sized projects, but that's so much more than I even want to think about. Either way, I would think that the best way to go about writing any sort of guide would be in parts, and posting each part to Tildes would be what I would do, probably on a monthly basis. Some of the topics that I post as "parts" of a guide could end up being very large though.

                    1 vote
      2. Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
        I've fixed that. Thanks for pointing it out.

        I've fixed that. Thanks for pointing it out.