This may be the first time it's affected a Tesla, but definitely not the first time for cars in general. Audis, Fords, Kias, and Toyotas have all had unexpected acceleration due to hardware or...
This may be the first time it's affected a Tesla, but definitely not the first time for cars in general. Audis, Fords, Kias, and Toyotas have all had unexpected acceleration due to hardware or software issues.
I'm not talking about Tesla's but cars in general. It is usually human error. Link
I'm not talking about Tesla's but cars in general. It is usually human error.
The real culprit? Human error. More often than not, drivers who reported that their accelerators were stuck were inadvertently flooring it and thinking they were pressing the brakes. Data from many of the “black boxes” from cars involved in incidents of unintended acceleration showed that in most cases, the brakes were never even touched.
I am not saying that human error doesn't happen, but there are definitely times when human error is used to avoid (or try to avoid) liability for bad software or other design flaws. Here is a very...
Exemplary
I am not saying that human error doesn't happen, but there are definitely times when human error is used to avoid (or try to avoid) liability for bad software or other design flaws.
Here is a very detailed explanation of the evidence for software failure from one of the Toyota UA trials.
I was involved in a different case (can't say who, but not Toyota) and have personally seen two different models sitting on a dyno where a single component failure pegs the throttle wide open.
The root of a lot of this is that automotive manufacturers and their suppliers moved from hardware control to software control to save weight, but lacked the internal expertise to effectively produce high reliability software. Conformance with ISO 26262, the standard that governs software safety in the US, is voluntary. No safety audits are required, and there is no requirement for independent oversight. The exposure on the road is extremely high – millions of hours driven for any particular model, and more for subsystems share across different makes and models. It's not possible to test to a level that will find these failures, so other process controls are needed, but often they are they effectively implemented.
Fair enough. I should clarify that in most situations people can still hit the brake and so usually they think they are hitting the brake but are instead hitting the accelerator. I won't argue...
Fair enough. I should clarify that in most situations people can still hit the brake and so usually they think they are hitting the brake but are instead hitting the accelerator. I won't argue that mechanical or software issues don't happen as well.
I don't know about "most", I haven't seen data I trust supporting that. But the automatic assumption that a human was at fault is harmful because it benefits a corporation protecting their bottom...
I don't know about "most", I haven't seen data I trust supporting that. But the automatic assumption that a human was at fault is harmful because it benefits a corporation protecting their bottom line at the expense of an individual or group of people whose lives are at risk. I think we'd be better off if it were incumbent on the manufacturer to show the vehicle functioned correctly, something more like the homologation requirements that Germany has.
Sorry, I can't take it. Friendly reminder follows. Brake. Cars have brakes. Slowing down is braking. Breaking is what happens to language when break is used to indicate brake.
Sorry, I can't take it. Friendly reminder follows.
Brake. Cars have brakes. Slowing down is braking.
Breaking is what happens to language when break is used to indicate brake.
Well the Audi one is a scandal in both directions. On the one hand there were issues (mostly with the placement of the pedal), but on the other victims claimed it was happening even while holding...
Well the Audi one is a scandal in both directions. On the one hand there were issues (mostly with the placement of the pedal), but on the other victims claimed it was happening even while holding the brake.
60 minutes “recreated” this event, without a driver in the car no less, by rigging up a can of compressed air off camera to shift the car into drive and basically stop the pedal from working.
Seems like the craziest part of this recall is the amount of arguing its caused. Tesla has always been a bit controversial but their fanboys were so overtly cocky when Tesla was the only game in...
Seems like the craziest part of this recall is the amount of arguing its caused. Tesla has always been a bit controversial but their fanboys were so overtly cocky when Tesla was the only game in town, that the backlash has been pretty strong. Now when there's ANY kind of bad news about Tesla, there is a whole raft of haters that jump on the bandwagon to trash talk the brand and their vehicles. Of course the fanboys point out that recalls are common in the industry and this one is pretty minor compared to most, but it doesnt stop the badmouthing. Its a bit bizarre as EV sales have slumped this year (as have all car sales) and concurrently the doom and gloom forecasting seems to be ramping up - and Im sure the legacy auto manufacturers are quietly happy about that.
I feel like everything has that kind of outsized zealotry in today’s world, though. I own a Tesla and have a reservation for a Cybertruck and people online immediately assume that I’m a zealot. My...
I feel like everything has that kind of outsized zealotry in today’s world, though. I own a Tesla and have a reservation for a Cybertruck and people online immediately assume that I’m a zealot. My Model 3 is my favorite car I’ve ever owned (and it’s paid off!) and I have had 0 issues with it. If I go anywhere other than Tildes and mention that, I am immediately inundated with mentions of how awful the build quality on my car is (despite these people knowing nothing about my car and never having seen it) and how crappy every Model 3 is. If I complain about something, even in the slightest, such as issues that I’ve had with Bluetooth and driver profiles, the Tesla stans will come out and call me an idiot and tell me it’s my fault it doesn’t work.
I shouldn’t be surprised that, like anything else online, we’ve gotten to a place where opinions must be binary and without nuance but it’s gotten so tiring that I just don’t mention Tesla or my car anymore.
This SMBC is worth keeping in mind: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-07 More than ten years old, and if anything, more true now than then. Personally, I think we're running in to the...
More than ten years old, and if anything, more true now than then.
Personally, I think we're running in to the limitations of Dunbar's Number. Our brains are only built to be able to handle so many people, and our defaults of what make sense for social interactions must be formed around this maximum. The internet has blown that way, way open, but we don't yet have the social moores to navigate appropriately. Algorithms that drive engagement certainly aren't helping, but I'm afraid the root issue goes even deeper.
It's a strange phenomenon when someone makes themselves the public face of a company and then becomes a culture war figurehead, all that companies products inherit the status of culture war prop,...
It's a strange phenomenon when someone makes themselves the public face of a company and then becomes a culture war figurehead, all that companies products inherit the status of culture war prop, retroactively. Your phone or car or clothes could suddenly become catnip for people seeking out online arguments.
Agreed. It was Elon's public image that originally drew me to Tesla years ago. He seemed genuinely interested in shaking up and improving the industries he was involved in and I saw potential in...
Agreed. It was Elon's public image that originally drew me to Tesla years ago. He seemed genuinely interested in shaking up and improving the industries he was involved in and I saw potential in spacex as a vehicle for advancing space exploration.
It's interesting to think if Elon had been more restrained in the public sharing of his ideas I may still have been a supporter of his companies. Surely there are plenty of other companies with problematic CEOs that I don't worry about because I'm not constantly exposed to their insane thoughts and whims. I don't believe consumer-side activism works and instead look to regulation and enforcement of white collar crime laws (pipe dream I know) to keep these lunatics reigned in.
As Elon has continued to show his cards, promoting anti-Semitic posts and unblocking Nazi accounts, being anti workers rights and anti trans and anti 'woke', making tech promises with long past delivery dates that never materialized (boring tunnels, AI Android, electric big rigs, Mars mission...), etc. I've gone from low-key fanboy to having disdain for this thin-skinned man who is less genius and more just lucky as he continuously fails upward.
I know better than to assign Elon's values to all Tesla owners as many of them purchased before his public transformation, but i couldn't help but feel that new owners not only are indifferent to his policies but actually buying to vice-signal them. Like it or not his public persona is now part and parcel with the Tesla brand.
100% this and it has to be hurting the company. I still haven't seen the far right he's been pandering to actually buy his products, but I've seen plenty of his original base cancel reservations...
100% this and it has to be hurting the company. I still haven't seen the far right he's been pandering to actually buy his products, but I've seen plenty of his original base cancel reservations because they didn't want to support that kind of behavior. I wish the board would remove him. Plenty of talented people in those companies that deserve better.
Definitely true. Normies have better things to worry about. Now you're in conspiracy land. Outside of a few loonies, the people who buy new Teslas are those who heard Tesla was the hot electric...
new owners not only are indifferent to his policies
Definitely true. Normies have better things to worry about.
actually buying to vice-signal
Now you're in conspiracy land. Outside of a few loonies, the people who buy new Teslas are those who heard Tesla was the hot electric car company in 2017 and then never checked the state of the industry. Tesla had already cemented itself as THE electric car company for them.
I suppose this really depends on your definition of the word 'Normies'. I would personally consider normies as people who don't care about electric cars, especially in 2017 when Tesla attracted...
Definitely true. Normies have better things to worry about.
I suppose this really depends on your definition of the word 'Normies'. I would personally consider normies as people who don't care about electric cars, especially in 2017 when Tesla attracted more tech savvy and often more progressive and socially conscious consumers.
Now you're in conspiracy land. Outside of a few loonies, the people who buy new Teslas are those who heard Tesla was the hot electric car company in 2017 and then never checked the state of the industry. Tesla had already cemented itself as THE electric car company for them.
I'm failing to see the conspiracy. Anecdotally I know a few people who were previously indifferent to Musk pre-X who now praise and support him specifically for his anti-trans views. They have discussed buying Teslas for this reason. If you met or knew them you'd be hard pressed to consider them anything other than 'Normies', not the loonies you're describing.
I can imagine a scenario where someone can be disconnected from the news and completely absent from social or traditional media, thereby missing any of this political context of the last six years. I know people like this, though I'd argue buying electric vehicles is not something they remotely care about.
Musk has himself to blame for that. His increasingly toxic public antics, and penchant for over promising and severely under-delivering have made him and his company an easy target for mockery. It...
Musk has himself to blame for that. His increasingly toxic public antics, and penchant for over promising and severely under-delivering have made him and his company an easy target for mockery. It also doesn't help that the Cybertruck is basically a $60k shitpost.
I may be an example although I am not forecasting anything. So I am not much of a car person. However, my impression of Tesla is that Elon has been reckless about safety generally and corrects...
I may be an example although I am not forecasting anything. So I am not much of a car person. However, my impression of Tesla is that Elon has been reckless about safety generally and corrects things after the fact. Examples include the early experiments with self driving and also the design of the doors and the fact that people could be locked in if certain electronics fail. Also Elon personally is responsible for the increased hate on twitter/ X which makes me dislike him more as a person. But Tesla makes choices that are the opposite of my taste. I like physical, manual controls where that makes sense and don't want to be at the mercy of a fragile chip for vital functions in my daily driver.
Not trying to defend Tesla, but important to note for anyone who doesn't know that Tesla doors all have mechanical releases in case the electronic popper fails/battery dies. A prime example of the...
also the design of the doors and the fact that people could be locked in if certain electronics fail.
Not trying to defend Tesla, but important to note for anyone who doesn't know that Tesla doors all have mechanical releases in case the electronic popper fails/battery dies. A prime example of the backlash against Tesla leading to questionable information.
Is it too much to ask that the door handles that you regularly use are also mechanically linked rather than having a separate emergency release? In an emergency people are always going to do...
Is it too much to ask that the door handles that you regularly use are also mechanically linked rather than having a separate emergency release? In an emergency people are always going to do what's familiar rather than looking for a release they may have never even used.
Important to also note that the manual releases are hidden and not obvious to reach for in an emergency or panicked state. The last thing I want to do is search for the owners manual or google for...
Important to also note that the manual releases are hidden and not obvious to reach for in an emergency or panicked state. The last thing I want to do is search for the owners manual or google for the information and weed through the hundreds of videos and articles about it - which exist because getting out of these cars is a safety issue. I'll take a hard pass on any car that treats an emergency situation like an escape room with unmarked buttons and straps to pull on for my literal life.
That's not questionable information; there's a real problem here.
Weren't there incidents of people who tried and failed to get out? Let me know if I am wrong, but emergency latches should be obvious and easy to use, both front seat and back. Edit by googling I...
Weren't there incidents of people who tried and failed to get out? Let me know if I am wrong, but emergency latches should be obvious and easy to use, both front seat and back.
Edit by googling I found incidents of fires where people failed to get out
To open the rear door without power in a Model Y, one must remove a rubber bottom mat from the door pocket and operate a small and hard to reach switch on the bottom, which some have said they...
To open the rear door without power in a Model Y, one must remove a rubber bottom mat from the door pocket and operate a small and hard to reach switch on the bottom, which some have said they have needed a screwdriver to get at.
Model 3 and Y have flush handles on the outside that can be opened manually and so do not require power. They are not like the self presenting handles on the model S. They are arguably better...
Model 3 and Y have flush handles on the outside that can be opened manually and so do not require power. They are not like the self presenting handles on the model S. They are arguably better since the model S handles break all the time and are expensive.
Yeah, it's not ideal and obviously worse in an emergency situation. I just wanted to clarify there are still ways to open the doors. I'm not trying to suggest it is good or better than normal handles.
Yeah, it's not ideal and obviously worse in an emergency situation. I just wanted to clarify there are still ways to open the doors. I'm not trying to suggest it is good or better than normal handles.
Yeah, but from what I understand, some of them you'd have to know the car or read the manual to figure out where they are (I think in one model you have to remove part of hte back seat!). In...
Yeah, but from what I understand, some of them you'd have to know the car or read the manual to figure out where they are (I think in one model you have to remove part of hte back seat!). In situations where you need to get out, you don't always have time to do that. And as some one else said, the safest thing is to link the handles to be also mechanically linked cause that way people will not even have to think about it, they just do what they are familiar and already have instinct to do.
Yes they do. They are not convenient or realistic for an emergency, but they exist. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-A7A60DC7-E476-4A86-9C9C-10F4A276AB8B.html
Yes they do. They are not convenient or realistic for an emergency, but they exist.
Yeah... but it doesn't matter if they exist if they are not realisticly usable in an emergency situation. Having them hidden behind something and having to know how to get it (or even have to hace...
Yeah... but it doesn't matter if they exist if they are not realisticly usable in an emergency situation. Having them hidden behind something and having to know how to get it (or even have to hace a screwdriver to access it) you might as well say they don't have them when it comes to soimething like needing to get out of hte car RIGHT NOW (like fire or car is underwater).
That must be only in the new Highland refresh of the 3. You can see here where people are discussing that it does not exist. The one person saying there's a manual release admits he was reading...
That must be only in the new Highland refresh of the 3. You can see here where people are discussing that it does not exist. The one person saying there's a manual release admits he was reading the Model Y manual.
Wow, this might be the first time unexpected acceleration was actually an issue with the vehicle and not user error.
This may be the first time it's affected a Tesla, but definitely not the first time for cars in general. Audis, Fords, Kias, and Toyotas have all had unexpected acceleration due to hardware or software issues.
I'm not talking about Tesla's but cars in general. It is usually human error.
Link
I am not saying that human error doesn't happen, but there are definitely times when human error is used to avoid (or try to avoid) liability for bad software or other design flaws.
Here is a very detailed explanation of the evidence for software failure from one of the Toyota UA trials.
I was involved in a different case (can't say who, but not Toyota) and have personally seen two different models sitting on a dyno where a single component failure pegs the throttle wide open.
The root of a lot of this is that automotive manufacturers and their suppliers moved from hardware control to software control to save weight, but lacked the internal expertise to effectively produce high reliability software. Conformance with ISO 26262, the standard that governs software safety in the US, is voluntary. No safety audits are required, and there is no requirement for independent oversight. The exposure on the road is extremely high – millions of hours driven for any particular model, and more for subsystems share across different makes and models. It's not possible to test to a level that will find these failures, so other process controls are needed, but often they are they effectively implemented.
Fair enough. I should clarify that in most situations people can still hit the brake and so usually they think they are hitting the brake but are instead hitting the accelerator. I won't argue that mechanical or software issues don't happen as well.
I don't know about "most", I haven't seen data I trust supporting that. But the automatic assumption that a human was at fault is harmful because it benefits a corporation protecting their bottom line at the expense of an individual or group of people whose lives are at risk. I think we'd be better off if it were incumbent on the manufacturer to show the vehicle functioned correctly, something more like the homologation requirements that Germany has.
Sorry, I can't take it. Friendly reminder follows.
Brake. Cars have brakes. Slowing down is braking.
Breaking is what happens to language when break is used to indicate brake.
Thanks. I would blame autocorrect but I did it twice so I'll just say I wasn't paying attention while on the toilet ;)
Well the Audi one is a scandal in both directions. On the one hand there were issues (mostly with the placement of the pedal), but on the other victims claimed it was happening even while holding the brake.
60 minutes “recreated” this event, without a driver in the car no less, by rigging up a can of compressed air off camera to shift the car into drive and basically stop the pedal from working.
To memory the NHTSA exonerated Audi
Honda or Toyota had a massive issue with this in the 90s or something. Can't remember exactly.
Seems like the craziest part of this recall is the amount of arguing its caused. Tesla has always been a bit controversial but their fanboys were so overtly cocky when Tesla was the only game in town, that the backlash has been pretty strong. Now when there's ANY kind of bad news about Tesla, there is a whole raft of haters that jump on the bandwagon to trash talk the brand and their vehicles. Of course the fanboys point out that recalls are common in the industry and this one is pretty minor compared to most, but it doesnt stop the badmouthing. Its a bit bizarre as EV sales have slumped this year (as have all car sales) and concurrently the doom and gloom forecasting seems to be ramping up - and Im sure the legacy auto manufacturers are quietly happy about that.
I feel like everything has that kind of outsized zealotry in today’s world, though. I own a Tesla and have a reservation for a Cybertruck and people online immediately assume that I’m a zealot. My Model 3 is my favorite car I’ve ever owned (and it’s paid off!) and I have had 0 issues with it. If I go anywhere other than Tildes and mention that, I am immediately inundated with mentions of how awful the build quality on my car is (despite these people knowing nothing about my car and never having seen it) and how crappy every Model 3 is. If I complain about something, even in the slightest, such as issues that I’ve had with Bluetooth and driver profiles, the Tesla stans will come out and call me an idiot and tell me it’s my fault it doesn’t work.
I shouldn’t be surprised that, like anything else online, we’ve gotten to a place where opinions must be binary and without nuance but it’s gotten so tiring that I just don’t mention Tesla or my car anymore.
This SMBC is worth keeping in mind: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-07
More than ten years old, and if anything, more true now than then.
Personally, I think we're running in to the limitations of Dunbar's Number. Our brains are only built to be able to handle so many people, and our defaults of what make sense for social interactions must be formed around this maximum. The internet has blown that way, way open, but we don't yet have the social moores to navigate appropriately. Algorithms that drive engagement certainly aren't helping, but I'm afraid the root issue goes even deeper.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number )
It's a strange phenomenon when someone makes themselves the public face of a company and then becomes a culture war figurehead, all that companies products inherit the status of culture war prop, retroactively. Your phone or car or clothes could suddenly become catnip for people seeking out online arguments.
Agreed. It was Elon's public image that originally drew me to Tesla years ago. He seemed genuinely interested in shaking up and improving the industries he was involved in and I saw potential in spacex as a vehicle for advancing space exploration.
It's interesting to think if Elon had been more restrained in the public sharing of his ideas I may still have been a supporter of his companies. Surely there are plenty of other companies with problematic CEOs that I don't worry about because I'm not constantly exposed to their insane thoughts and whims. I don't believe consumer-side activism works and instead look to regulation and enforcement of white collar crime laws (pipe dream I know) to keep these lunatics reigned in.
As Elon has continued to show his cards, promoting anti-Semitic posts and unblocking Nazi accounts, being anti workers rights and anti trans and anti 'woke', making tech promises with long past delivery dates that never materialized (boring tunnels, AI Android, electric big rigs, Mars mission...), etc. I've gone from low-key fanboy to having disdain for this thin-skinned man who is less genius and more just lucky as he continuously fails upward.
I know better than to assign Elon's values to all Tesla owners as many of them purchased before his public transformation, but i couldn't help but feel that new owners not only are indifferent to his policies but actually buying to vice-signal them. Like it or not his public persona is now part and parcel with the Tesla brand.
100% this and it has to be hurting the company. I still haven't seen the far right he's been pandering to actually buy his products, but I've seen plenty of his original base cancel reservations because they didn't want to support that kind of behavior. I wish the board would remove him. Plenty of talented people in those companies that deserve better.
Definitely true. Normies have better things to worry about.
Now you're in conspiracy land. Outside of a few loonies, the people who buy new Teslas are those who heard Tesla was the hot electric car company in 2017 and then never checked the state of the industry. Tesla had already cemented itself as THE electric car company for them.
I suppose this really depends on your definition of the word 'Normies'. I would personally consider normies as people who don't care about electric cars, especially in 2017 when Tesla attracted more tech savvy and often more progressive and socially conscious consumers.
I'm failing to see the conspiracy. Anecdotally I know a few people who were previously indifferent to Musk pre-X who now praise and support him specifically for his anti-trans views. They have discussed buying Teslas for this reason. If you met or knew them you'd be hard pressed to consider them anything other than 'Normies', not the loonies you're describing.
I can imagine a scenario where someone can be disconnected from the news and completely absent from social or traditional media, thereby missing any of this political context of the last six years. I know people like this, though I'd argue buying electric vehicles is not something they remotely care about.
Musk has himself to blame for that. His increasingly toxic public antics, and penchant for over promising and severely under-delivering have made him and his company an easy target for mockery. It also doesn't help that the Cybertruck is basically a $60k shitpost.
I may be an example although I am not forecasting anything. So I am not much of a car person. However, my impression of Tesla is that Elon has been reckless about safety generally and corrects things after the fact. Examples include the early experiments with self driving and also the design of the doors and the fact that people could be locked in if certain electronics fail. Also Elon personally is responsible for the increased hate on twitter/ X which makes me dislike him more as a person. But Tesla makes choices that are the opposite of my taste. I like physical, manual controls where that makes sense and don't want to be at the mercy of a fragile chip for vital functions in my daily driver.
Not trying to defend Tesla, but important to note for anyone who doesn't know that Tesla doors all have mechanical releases in case the electronic popper fails/battery dies. A prime example of the backlash against Tesla leading to questionable information.
Is it too much to ask that the door handles that you regularly use are also mechanically linked rather than having a separate emergency release? In an emergency people are always going to do what's familiar rather than looking for a release they may have never even used.
Important to also note that the manual releases are hidden and not obvious to reach for in an emergency or panicked state. The last thing I want to do is search for the owners manual or google for the information and weed through the hundreds of videos and articles about it - which exist because getting out of these cars is a safety issue. I'll take a hard pass on any car that treats an emergency situation like an escape room with unmarked buttons and straps to pull on for my literal life.
That's not questionable information; there's a real problem here.
Weren't there incidents of people who tried and failed to get out? Let me know if I am wrong, but emergency latches should be obvious and easy to use, both front seat and back.
Edit by googling I found incidents of fires where people failed to get out
To open the rear door without power in a Model Y, one must remove a rubber bottom mat from the door pocket and operate a small and hard to reach switch on the bottom, which some have said they have needed a screwdriver to get at.
Example with picture: https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/155qslu/rear_door_manual_release_contraption/
Oh, and since Teslas have flush door handles on the outside, which require power to pop out and be usable...I guess, just never put kids in the back.
Model 3 and Y have flush handles on the outside that can be opened manually and so do not require power. They are not like the self presenting handles on the model S. They are arguably better since the model S handles break all the time and are expensive.
Yeah, it's not ideal and obviously worse in an emergency situation. I just wanted to clarify there are still ways to open the doors. I'm not trying to suggest it is good or better than normal handles.
Yeah, but from what I understand, some of them you'd have to know the car or read the manual to figure out where they are (I think in one model you have to remove part of hte back seat!). In situations where you need to get out, you don't always have time to do that. And as some one else said, the safest thing is to link the handles to be also mechanically linked cause that way people will not even have to think about it, they just do what they are familiar and already have instinct to do.
No, rear doors in the Model 3s do not.
Yes they do. They are not convenient or realistic for an emergency, but they exist.
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-A7A60DC7-E476-4A86-9C9C-10F4A276AB8B.html
Yeah... but it doesn't matter if they exist if they are not realisticly usable in an emergency situation. Having them hidden behind something and having to know how to get it (or even have to hace a screwdriver to access it) you might as well say they don't have them when it comes to soimething like needing to get out of hte car RIGHT NOW (like fire or car is underwater).
That must be only in the new Highland refresh of the 3. You can see here where people are discussing that it does not exist. The one person saying there's a manual release admits he was reading the Model Y manual.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-manual-rear-door-release-model-3-highland/