Voyager: an average of 2.2 million dollars per episode on a 26 episode season = 57 million dollars per season Strange New Worlds: 7 million dollars per episode on a 10 episode season = 70 million...
Voyager: an average of 2.2 million dollars per episode on a 26 episode season = 57 million dollars per season
Strange New Worlds: 7 million dollars per episode on a 10 episode season = 70 million dollars
Now I'd imagine that Voyager adjusted for inflation would be far more, but I'd take more ship banter and antics over massive set pieces any day.
I agree completely. One thing I noticed with New Trek, is that everything seems to be much, much faster paced than it used to be. Of course, this economy of time is pretty common to all media...
I agree completely. One thing I noticed with New Trek, is that everything seems to be much, much faster paced than it used to be. Of course, this economy of time is pretty common to all media these days, but many of my favorite moments in TNG were the quiet ones, in which characters had a conversation about what was happening to them. As a fan, I would certainly enjoy it if they amortized their sets over a longer time and allowed us to just exist with these characters. (Disclaimer, haven't seen all of SNW or the last season of Picard, maybe they slowed down, but I doubt it)
The "in-between" bits (often called "filler" these days) in general is important for developing that sense that you really "know" the characters. This applies not just to Trek but other series...
The "in-between" bits (often called "filler" these days) in general is important for developing that sense that you really "know" the characters. This applies not just to Trek but other series too.
For example with anime I think the golden number of episodes for most series is somewhere in the ballpark of 50-80, with somewhere between a third and a half of those concerning themselves with low-stakes character development and world building. It can be done with fewer (e.g. ≤ 24 episodes) but that requires the director and writers to execute a fine balance of plot, action, and slower moments that can be difficult to pull off without appropriate source material, meticulous planning, and an experienced crew.
This style doesn't seem popular with the younger generations, though, who apparently do things like watch shows at 2x and/or never deeply engage with them and have them on as basically background noise.
Also, on something like Star Trek the "fillers" are often the best bits!
The "in-between" bits (often called "filler" these days) in general is important for developing that sense that you really "know" the characters. This applies not just to Trek but other series too.
Also, on something like Star Trek the "fillers" are often the best bits!
There’s a specific aspect of this rushing that I’ve noticed. In TOS, Spock mostly didn’t show emotions. When he did, it had great impact and was a payoff for all the times when he would just raise...
There’s a specific aspect of this rushing that I’ve noticed.
In TOS, Spock mostly didn’t show emotions. When he did, it had great impact and was a payoff for all the times when he would just raise an eyebrow.
In New Trek, we don’t have any time for that shit. For example, in Strange New Worlds, Spock has girlfriends and laughs and there will be other payoffs each episode because COME ON COME ON PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THEIR PHONES AGAIN BECAUSE NOTHING HAPPENED IN THE LAST MINUTE. I actually like SNW but there’s frequently things happening that haven’t marinated properly. (This was more noticeable in Discovery where there was constantly unearned emotional responses).
I also like Lower Decks, and I know it’s a cartoon, but there’s a rushed payoff in almost every episode.
Picard is a master class in unearned nostalgia and confusing rushed payoffs but that’s been covered a lot.
I agree that Spocks characterization has been messy, particularly this season. However, I think him showing more emotions than in TOS is a deliberate creative choice. In TOS, Spock largely seeks...
I agree that Spocks characterization has been messy, particularly this season. However, I think him showing more emotions than in TOS is a deliberate creative choice.
In TOS, Spock largely seeks to ignore his emotions, culminating in TMP where we see him attempt a ritual to completely expunge them from his mind, before backing out at the last minute. This kicks off his story arc for the films where we see Spock better embrace his more human qualities.
I believe Strange New Worlds is showing us how Spock came to view his emotions as a liability in the first place, bringing this character arc full circle.
I haven't seen Picard, and haven't yet seen any of this season of SNW, but last season did have a few slower moments of introspection, and I think it contributed to my feeling that SNW is...
I haven't seen Picard, and haven't yet seen any of this season of SNW, but last season did have a few slower moments of introspection, and I think it contributed to my feeling that SNW is succeeding in capturing the spirit of Star Trek better than the other New Trek shows.
If you're going to watch Picard just stick to the third season. Even the show runners made it feel the first two were completely pointless. Which I would say they are. I blanked out all of season...
If you're going to watch Picard just stick to the third season. Even the show runners made it feel the first two were completely pointless. Which I would say they are. I blanked out all of season two for example. I couldn't even tell you what happened. Season one is passable if you want more Data lore and story but it's kind of flat overall. Season three however was pretty good and is a nice nod to and appreciation of TNG. Well worth a watch.
Older TV shows and movies used to have a lot more time spend on establishing shots. So the shot of the Enterprise moving through space or orbiting a planet would just take a lot more time in older...
Older TV shows and movies used to have a lot more time spend on establishing shots. So the shot of the Enterprise moving through space or orbiting a planet would just take a lot more time in older shows.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture starts with 3 full minutes of moving through a field of stars. Like the screensaver, but slower. Then the title cards and credits, and then another full minute of establishing shots of ships before we even see a character. The first line of dialogue isn't until 5:50 into the movie, and it's a single word. The second line (word) is 20 seconds later.
If you started a movie with 3 minutes of stars and music today, the theatre would be empty before the title screen.
Spoilers for The Inner Light, just in case Those episodes of science fiction shows always stick with me. It's understated compared to some events the characters go through, but Picard having lived...
Spoilers for The Inner Light, just in case
Those episodes of science fiction shows always stick with me. It's understated compared to some events the characters go through, but Picard having lived an entire, fulfilling, birth-to-death life in the span of a few hours with the last memento of an entire civilization is chilling. If I ever got the chance I'd love to ask the scriptwriter if the Voyager probe was a source of inspiration. If anything, I'd bet money on it outlasting records from current human society in the long-term, albeit nowhere near as advanced.
I wonder if that’s true. The cost of CGI has dramatically dropped (while improving in quality) but the cost of everything else has probably gone way, way up. And practical stuff like makeup...
Now I'd imagine that Voyager adjusted for inflation would be far more, but I'd take more ship banter and antics over massive set pieces any day.
I wonder if that’s true. The cost of CGI has dramatically dropped (while improving in quality) but the cost of everything else has probably gone way, way up. And practical stuff like makeup doesn’t necessarily get cheaper since there’s hard costs. Would be an interesting comparison to see an inflation adjusted breakdown of the costs.
I don't have any data. But I would be surprised if the savings CGI brought by reducing the amount of practical effects and eliminating fully physical sets and models were made irrelevant by the...
I don't have any data. But I would be surprised if the savings CGI brought by reducing the amount of practical effects and eliminating fully physical sets and models were made irrelevant by the inflation of materials. Building and coordinating huge sets with dozens of extras for whatever civilization of the week was incredibly costly. Not to mention full creatures and models built from scratch, many of which will never be used again, that nowadays are either partially or completely CGI. Extras are easily replicated to give the sensation of volume.
TOS might be relatively cheap, but TNG looked expensive.
I feel like a lot of TV these days (including Trek, I think, although I admit I haven't watched any "newer" Trek outside of Lower Decks, a season of Discovery, and the first few episodes of...
I feel like a lot of TV these days (including Trek, I think, although I admit I haven't watched any "newer" Trek outside of Lower Decks, a season of Discovery, and the first few episodes of Picard), is that they're all mimicing the "prestige TV" formula and chasing the fame and success of Game of Thrones. Every episode needs to be an epic, narrative-advancing, film-quality blockbuster. I'm not necessarily complaining--that formula can generate some dope-ass TV--but that's not what made me a Trek fan back in the days of TNG, DS9, and Voyager. Sometimes I just want to watch Data and Geordi fuck around in the holodeck for an hour, know what I mean?
Unpopular opinion, but I like shorter seasons of things if we can have different and weirder shows. Granted, it’s snort of devolved into a lot of franchise churn, or derivative works on the anime...
Unpopular opinion, but I like shorter seasons of things if we can have different and weirder shows. Granted, it’s snort of devolved into a lot of franchise churn, or derivative works on the anime side of things, but more entry points and weirder premises make for more favorite shows, at least on paper.
Entry points into Star Trek historically were achieved because the show is mostly monster of the week type episodes. The next generation had only a very slight overarching plot to follow, and it...
Exemplary
Entry points into Star Trek historically were achieved because the show is mostly monster of the week type episodes. The next generation had only a very slight overarching plot to follow, and it was mostly having to do with characters that appeared in previous episodes making a guest appearance in the later ones. The enterprise isn't taking 7 years to unravel some deep conspiracy or grand mystery. They're doing their normally assigned rotational mission of exploring strange new worlds and seeking out new life and new civilizations. DS9 sort of expanded the serial format, but most episodes were still monster of the week style episodes. It wasn't until the paramount plus era that Star Trek started trying to be "prestige tv", which nowadays is just synonymous with a serial format; basically just a 12 hour long movie.
This has the effect of requiring people to watch every episode, and although the shows themselves can be more diverse, the episodes generally aren't. They're working on more or less the same thing, with the same characters, the same issues, and the same general plot and tone every episode.
To me, that's not what's interesting about Star Trek. The whole setting is designed explicitly for stand alone episodes. You've got widespread colonization of the galaxy, all sorts of crazy aliens with wildly different belief systems and stories, and you get the impression that the federation is dealing with this stuff all the time. One episode is on a wild west planet, the next takes place in space with a standoff between ships, the next takes place in a Dyson sphere, and so on. You don't need to have the main cast be whacky and out there, or have the ships have some crazy new twist that's totally unlike what we've seen before, that's what the guest stars are for. You can explore all of these whacky ideas and if it's a stupid idea, the worst that happens is you get a single bad episode, instead of a whole series that has to be cancelled because the writers are clueless.
You can jump in and watch any episode and feel like you understand what's going on. You might not fully grasp each character and what their role is and their motivation, but watching the show isn't a huge commitment to gain some sort of satisfaction. You can just watch one good episode and think "wow, that was a great story".
I think shows about certain types of things benefit from a serial format; deep character dramas, mystery shows, war miniseries, and so on. Its very much shoehorned into genres and show types that really didn't need it nowadays though. Star Trek is one of them in my opinion.
Voyager: an average of 2.2 million dollars per episode on a 26 episode season = 57 million dollars per season
Strange New Worlds: 7 million dollars per episode on a 10 episode season = 70 million dollars
Now I'd imagine that Voyager adjusted for inflation would be far more, but I'd take more ship banter and antics over massive set pieces any day.
I agree completely. One thing I noticed with New Trek, is that everything seems to be much, much faster paced than it used to be. Of course, this economy of time is pretty common to all media these days, but many of my favorite moments in TNG were the quiet ones, in which characters had a conversation about what was happening to them. As a fan, I would certainly enjoy it if they amortized their sets over a longer time and allowed us to just exist with these characters. (Disclaimer, haven't seen all of SNW or the last season of Picard, maybe they slowed down, but I doubt it)
The "in-between" bits (often called "filler" these days) in general is important for developing that sense that you really "know" the characters. This applies not just to Trek but other series too.
For example with anime I think the golden number of episodes for most series is somewhere in the ballpark of 50-80, with somewhere between a third and a half of those concerning themselves with low-stakes character development and world building. It can be done with fewer (e.g. ≤ 24 episodes) but that requires the director and writers to execute a fine balance of plot, action, and slower moments that can be difficult to pull off without appropriate source material, meticulous planning, and an experienced crew.
This style doesn't seem popular with the younger generations, though, who apparently do things like watch shows at 2x and/or never deeply engage with them and have them on as basically background noise.
Also, on something like Star Trek the "fillers" are often the best bits!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCOFtE4j41A
There’s a specific aspect of this rushing that I’ve noticed.
In TOS, Spock mostly didn’t show emotions. When he did, it had great impact and was a payoff for all the times when he would just raise an eyebrow.
In New Trek, we don’t have any time for that shit. For example, in Strange New Worlds, Spock has girlfriends and laughs and there will be other payoffs each episode because COME ON COME ON PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THEIR PHONES AGAIN BECAUSE NOTHING HAPPENED IN THE LAST MINUTE. I actually like SNW but there’s frequently things happening that haven’t marinated properly. (This was more noticeable in Discovery where there was constantly unearned emotional responses).
I also like Lower Decks, and I know it’s a cartoon, but there’s a rushed payoff in almost every episode.
Picard is a master class in unearned nostalgia and confusing rushed payoffs but that’s been covered a lot.
I agree that Spocks characterization has been messy, particularly this season. However, I think him showing more emotions than in TOS is a deliberate creative choice.
In TOS, Spock largely seeks to ignore his emotions, culminating in TMP where we see him attempt a ritual to completely expunge them from his mind, before backing out at the last minute. This kicks off his story arc for the films where we see Spock better embrace his more human qualities.
I believe Strange New Worlds is showing us how Spock came to view his emotions as a liability in the first place, bringing this character arc full circle.
I haven't seen Picard, and haven't yet seen any of this season of SNW, but last season did have a few slower moments of introspection, and I think it contributed to my feeling that SNW is succeeding in capturing the spirit of Star Trek better than the other New Trek shows.
If you're going to watch Picard just stick to the third season. Even the show runners made it feel the first two were completely pointless. Which I would say they are. I blanked out all of season two for example. I couldn't even tell you what happened. Season one is passable if you want more Data lore and story but it's kind of flat overall. Season three however was pretty good and is a nice nod to and appreciation of TNG. Well worth a watch.
… and the first fifteen minutes of the pilot! it was so promising.
It felt like a bait-and-switch. It starts exactly like one might expect and then becomes something else entirely.
100%. if it weren't for SNW and Lower Decks, I'd have completely given up on the franchise.
Older TV shows and movies used to have a lot more time spend on establishing shots. So the shot of the Enterprise moving through space or orbiting a planet would just take a lot more time in older shows.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture starts with 3 full minutes of moving through a field of stars. Like the screensaver, but slower. Then the title cards and credits, and then another full minute of establishing shots of ships before we even see a character. The first line of dialogue isn't until 5:50 into the movie, and it's a single word. The second line (word) is 20 seconds later.
If you started a movie with 3 minutes of stars and music today, the theatre would be empty before the title screen.
Heck, "The Inner Light" still sticks strongly in my mind all these years later! (Fairly meditative, and yet one of the most memorable episodes to me.)
Spoilers for The Inner Light, just in case
Those episodes of science fiction shows always stick with me. It's understated compared to some events the characters go through, but Picard having lived an entire, fulfilling, birth-to-death life in the span of a few hours with the last memento of an entire civilization is chilling. If I ever got the chance I'd love to ask the scriptwriter if the Voyager probe was a source of inspiration. If anything, I'd bet money on it outlasting records from current human society in the long-term, albeit nowhere near as advanced.I wonder if that’s true. The cost of CGI has dramatically dropped (while improving in quality) but the cost of everything else has probably gone way, way up. And practical stuff like makeup doesn’t necessarily get cheaper since there’s hard costs. Would be an interesting comparison to see an inflation adjusted breakdown of the costs.
I don't have any data. But I would be surprised if the savings CGI brought by reducing the amount of practical effects and eliminating fully physical sets and models were made irrelevant by the inflation of materials. Building and coordinating huge sets with dozens of extras for whatever civilization of the week was incredibly costly. Not to mention full creatures and models built from scratch, many of which will never be used again, that nowadays are either partially or completely CGI. Extras are easily replicated to give the sensation of volume.
TOS might be relatively cheap, but TNG looked expensive.
...the next generation used physical models, too...
Yes, of course. Have I said otherwise? My bad.
Those figures don't sound right. $20m/episode is House of the Dragon territory, and $50m/episode would put it up there with Rings of Power.
Per the Orville wiki:
About 7 million an episode
That can’t be right. That would be one of the most expensive tv shows of all time.
My AI summary had the 7 million number. ┐(´ー｀)┌
I went to the source because fuck the AI summary but I'm curious what yours was pulling from
I feel like a lot of TV these days (including Trek, I think, although I admit I haven't watched any "newer" Trek outside of Lower Decks, a season of Discovery, and the first few episodes of Picard), is that they're all mimicing the "prestige TV" formula and chasing the fame and success of Game of Thrones. Every episode needs to be an epic, narrative-advancing, film-quality blockbuster. I'm not necessarily complaining--that formula can generate some dope-ass TV--but that's not what made me a Trek fan back in the days of TNG, DS9, and Voyager. Sometimes I just want to watch Data and Geordi fuck around in the holodeck for an hour, know what I mean?
Unpopular opinion, but I like shorter seasons of things if we can have different and weirder shows. Granted, it’s snort of devolved into a lot of franchise churn, or derivative works on the anime side of things, but more entry points and weirder premises make for more favorite shows, at least on paper.
Entry points into Star Trek historically were achieved because the show is mostly monster of the week type episodes. The next generation had only a very slight overarching plot to follow, and it was mostly having to do with characters that appeared in previous episodes making a guest appearance in the later ones. The enterprise isn't taking 7 years to unravel some deep conspiracy or grand mystery. They're doing their normally assigned rotational mission of exploring strange new worlds and seeking out new life and new civilizations. DS9 sort of expanded the serial format, but most episodes were still monster of the week style episodes. It wasn't until the paramount plus era that Star Trek started trying to be "prestige tv", which nowadays is just synonymous with a serial format; basically just a 12 hour long movie.
This has the effect of requiring people to watch every episode, and although the shows themselves can be more diverse, the episodes generally aren't. They're working on more or less the same thing, with the same characters, the same issues, and the same general plot and tone every episode.
To me, that's not what's interesting about Star Trek. The whole setting is designed explicitly for stand alone episodes. You've got widespread colonization of the galaxy, all sorts of crazy aliens with wildly different belief systems and stories, and you get the impression that the federation is dealing with this stuff all the time. One episode is on a wild west planet, the next takes place in space with a standoff between ships, the next takes place in a Dyson sphere, and so on. You don't need to have the main cast be whacky and out there, or have the ships have some crazy new twist that's totally unlike what we've seen before, that's what the guest stars are for. You can explore all of these whacky ideas and if it's a stupid idea, the worst that happens is you get a single bad episode, instead of a whole series that has to be cancelled because the writers are clueless.
You can jump in and watch any episode and feel like you understand what's going on. You might not fully grasp each character and what their role is and their motivation, but watching the show isn't a huge commitment to gain some sort of satisfaction. You can just watch one good episode and think "wow, that was a great story".
I think shows about certain types of things benefit from a serial format; deep character dramas, mystery shows, war miniseries, and so on. Its very much shoehorned into genres and show types that really didn't need it nowadays though. Star Trek is one of them in my opinion.
In the case of Star Trek longer seasons are conducive to more weird episodes and arcs. Not the opposite.
Discussion on Reddit.
EDIT: fixed link.
That link isn't working. It bring me to the sub's post submission page. I think this is the link you're looking for: https://old.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/1ns1uyt/classic_star_trek_producer_says_shorter_modern/
Reddit links often do not work now. It's weird.