There's been a lot of chatter about sportswashing from Saudi Arabia, and I think this is just a huge continuation of this. Saudi Arabia notably has a very poor (to say the least) track record when...
There's been a lot of chatter about sportswashing from Saudi Arabia, and I think this is just a huge continuation of this. Saudi Arabia notably has a very poor (to say the least) track record when it comes to human rights, but have been trying to take over eSports in the last couple of years. They bought ESL, hosted the eSports World Cup, and now is hosting the official Olympic eSports games. I'm nervous to see what happens in the future as they get their hands in more and more of these events.
It's a baffling attempt that will go nowhere. Some decision makers on the side of the olympic games probably getting hefty "donations" or "seats at the board" to wire them great amounts of cash...
It's a baffling attempt that will go nowhere. Some decision makers on the side of the olympic games probably getting hefty "donations" or "seats at the board" to wire them great amounts of cash from Saudi Arabia.
Unless the actual most popular e-sports are represented here- LoL, Dota, CSGO, a number of fighting games, etc. no one relevant will care.
I think properly done this could be a great project. I hate to see it squandered like this, but then again, Saudi Arabia has been squandering pretty much all of their cash. I can't believe the amount of stupid shit they do with the actually infinite amount of money that they have.
Cultural exchanges go both ways. If sportswashing is what it takes to introduce them to other ideals we think are important that ultimately ends up being a good thing. The one thing that improves...
Cultural exchanges go both ways. If sportswashing is what it takes to introduce them to other ideals we think are important that ultimately ends up being a good thing.
I actually don't think international sporting events (e or otherwise) should ever be held in places where my existence is against the law, and I don't think giving Saudi Arabia a ton of money via...
I actually don't think international sporting events (e or otherwise) should ever be held in places where my existence is against the law, and I don't think giving Saudi Arabia a ton of money via hosting one is going to magically make them not criminalize my existence anymore.
I don't think that's true in this context specifically though. Like MimicSquid says, it's a one directional thing where they get to show off their money mostly. Furthermore, you end up in a poor...
I don't think that's true in this context specifically though. Like MimicSquid says, it's a one directional thing where they get to show off their money mostly. Furthermore, you end up in a poor place specifically for women's competition (you can look at Anna Muzychuk a couple of years ago in Chess )and subject them to backwards rules in order to compete.
This only goes one way, though. If Saudi Arabia gets to show off their wealth and power on broadcast TV through the Olympics, there may be bidirectional exchange for the people that attend in...
This only goes one way, though. If Saudi Arabia gets to show off their wealth and power on broadcast TV through the Olympics, there may be bidirectional exchange for the people that attend in person, but everyone who watches on TV only gets to consume the propaganda.
It doesn't go one way. Every attendee from a different country brings with them different values. Change is wrought by the people, so change the people. We're talking about the intent of changing...
It doesn't go one way. Every attendee from a different country brings with them different values. Change is wrought by the people, so change the people.
We're talking about the intent of changing their values. Something prohibitively difficult since nobody likes being told what to think or do. The one method you and I have is exposure.
And that will never change without some cultural osmosis. So yeah, pick your poison. I prefer the sportswashing, that at least has a chance for change in the long run. I'm not trying to convince...
And that will never change without some cultural osmosis. So yeah, pick your poison. I prefer the sportswashing, that at least has a chance for change in the long run.
I'm not trying to convince you, your opinion on this is just as valid and I can understand why you would take this position. There is nothing wrong with that, please don't think I'm trying to diminish that with my own opinion.
Is nebulous "cultural osmosis" worth it if literally any competitor who isn't a straight cis man is unable to compete under equal conditions with their straight cis male peers because of where the...
Is nebulous "cultural osmosis" worth it if literally any competitor who isn't a straight cis man is unable to compete under equal conditions with their straight cis male peers because of where the competition is held? I know gaming culture has its stereotypes but this is also an issue.
This is genuinely my concern. Because even in the chess competitor's example in another thread, while the competition itself did not require a gendered modest dress code (same suit and high collar...
This is genuinely my concern. Because even in the chess competitor's example in another thread, while the competition itself did not require a gendered modest dress code (same suit and high collar shirt reqs for everyone), leaving the competition site to do any of the cultural osmosis would apparently have required her to wear an abaya and or hijab, to be escorted by a man, etc.
If culturally she cannot really engage with Saudis particularly Saudi men who may not even engage with her due to cultural restrictions, little osmosis happens. And that doesn't even get into someone who is gay or trans.
I think that "change being wrought by the people" depends to some degree on the amount of political power "the people" have? In a democratic system, the people theoretically have at least some...
I think that "change being wrought by the people" depends to some degree on the amount of political power "the people" have? In a democratic system, the people theoretically have at least some power over the state, but the degree to which that is true in Saudi Arabia is an open question. To my mind, the people who actually have political power in Saudi Arabia are already well-exposed to the rest of the world, and they're happy to hold on to power at home in the way they always have. Will exposing them to a bunch of Olympic tourists actually open their eyes to anything new?
Not immediately, no. But will the opposite happen immediately? Also no. Cultural influence is a long term thing. Their leadership isn't keen to change their winning position, so perhaps the people...
Not immediately, no. But will the opposite happen immediately? Also no.
Cultural influence is a long term thing.
Their leadership isn't keen to change their winning position, so perhaps the people need to be inspired to change their leadership. And no, that won't happen overnight either. But the fewer people believe in their leadership, the weaker it'll become.
Long story short, I don't think sportswashing is as harmful as being implied. Rather, I think it's beneficial in the long run, when tourism and sports tourism increases and the tourists start demanding things like having a beer during their match, or something else relevant. Things that will open the eyes of the locals that they aren't as free to do as they want.
Cultural influence is banned - the House of Said derives it's legitimacy from the Wahhabi sect, who have an absurdly strict interpretation of Islam that will never permit homosexuality. They're...
Cultural influence is banned - the House of Said derives it's legitimacy from the Wahhabi sect, who have an absurdly strict interpretation of Islam that will never permit homosexuality. They're religious extremists, and the Saudis need them.
You know what happens to anyone who voices their western cultural influence? They get Khashoggi'd.
If the leadership isn’t going to accept it, what is the end game? Are we hoping to inject enough gay into their culture they throw a violent coup? This seems incredibly unrealistic to me. Edit: it...
If the leadership isn’t going to accept it, what is the end game? Are we hoping to inject enough gay into their culture they throw a violent coup? This seems incredibly unrealistic to me.
Edit: it also occurs to me that the country is not exactly a monolith. It is not closed to tourism and it has an Internet connection and political ties to other countries. The Olympics don’t seem to be at all necessary for this kind of transportation, and just lets them enjoy the economic benefit of tourism caused by their ”forget about our human rights abuses and look at this shiny thing” approach.
From what I've heard, they're still not allowing any games with shooting people or with any randomness at all, so I expect it will be very bad. Virtual chess, some sports games you've never heard...
From what I've heard, they're still not allowing any games with shooting people or with any randomness at all, so I expect it will be very bad. Virtual chess, some sports games you've never heard of, a racing game, and that's probably it. At the best some fighting game might make it in, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to watch this.
I'm saying that every time the subject comes forward: Tetris ought to be in this eOlympic : Well known Non violent Low barrier to entry High skill ceiling The existing communities already provide...
I'm saying that every time the subject comes forward: Tetris ought to be in this eOlympic :
Well known
Non violent
Low barrier to entry
High skill ceiling
The existing communities already provide 3 distinct disciplines (NES Tetris is marathon, Tetris the Grandmaster is middle distance track, modern Tetris is either 100m or versus)
Tetris was my first thought too. Though it DOES have random chance involved with what pieces you get, so I suppose it would be banned from this one. I remember a big fuss at a tournament where...
Tetris was my first thought too. Though it DOES have random chance involved with what pieces you get, so I suppose it would be banned from this one. I remember a big fuss at a tournament where someone didn't get any line clears or something similarly ridiculous because he was holding out for a straight line piece which just never came.
You do the same thing that classic Tetris does: give players the same randomization. The Tetris Classic World Cup gives the same piece to a pair of competitors to ensure fair competition....
You do the same thing that classic Tetris does: give players the same randomization. The Tetris Classic World Cup gives the same piece to a pair of competitors to ensure fair competition.
Grandmaster or any Guideline could probably be built out with similarly bespoke adjustments.
You wouldn't want to see garbage blocks in play for similar randomness reasons but things like marathon or 40L could work.
From what I've seen both TGM and guideline games have common seed in VS modes But you're probably talking about single player and indeed that something to be adapted... Or not even necessary: the...
Grandmaster or any Guideline could probably be built out with similarly bespoke adjustments.
From what I've seen both TGM and guideline games have common seed in VS modes
But you're probably talking about single player and indeed that something to be adapted... Or not even necessary: the recent PS4 and Switch) TGM port (well, more of an emulation than a real port) caravan mode was initially bugged because it was implemented by loading a saved state, effectively locking the seed.
You wouldn't want to see garbage blocks in play for similar randomness reasons but things like marathon or 40L could work.
You can make garbage 100% deterministic. See TGM approach : take the cleared lines (sans the clearing pièce) and send them vertically flipped. This adds some tactical depth too (the solo strat of doing a Tetris well doesn't work as well).
You wouldn't want to see garbage blocks in play for similar randomness reasons but things like marathon or 40L could work.
Most modern Tetris implements a specific random piece generator that prevent egregiously bad sequence (more on this article) . Modern VS Tetris is deterministic enough that you can have openers...
Most modern Tetris implements a specific random piece generator that prevent egregiously bad sequence (more on this article) . Modern VS Tetris is deterministic enough that you can have openers stack that guarantees some high scoring moves (for instance if the DT canon guarantee a tspins double and a tspins triple).
The only Olympic approved "fighting" game I know of so far is Virtual Taekwondo which looks pretty stupid to me. Real life Taekwondo is already in the Olympics. So why would anyone want to watch...
At the best some fighting game might make it in, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to watch this.
The only Olympic approved "fighting" game I know of so far is Virtual Taekwondo which looks pretty stupid to me. Real life Taekwondo is already in the Olympics. So why would anyone want to watch two people performing similar moves against thin air, with the hits only being simulated in a virtual environment? I genuinely don't get it. It feels like making shadow boxing an Olympic event.
But AFAIK there are, as yet, no other fighting games being considered by the IOC. And sadly, I doubt any of the kind most gamers/esports fans would think of as fighting games, based on fantasy, and played via a controller, are likely to ever get approved. For whatever reason the IOC seems to think Olympic esports should be entirely based on already established real life sports.
Of all the applications of VR games I'm confident this is the dumbest one. For the exact same reasons you mentioned. Real Taekwondo is a thing, why introduce the same thing but worse.
Of all the applications of VR games I'm confident this is the dumbest one. For the exact same reasons you mentioned. Real Taekwondo is a thing, why introduce the same thing but worse.
It makes sense to me to some degree for people who can't practice real taekwondo for whatever reason, like a lack of nearby facilities, scheduling issues or lockdowns. Virtual matches, either with...
It makes sense to me to some degree for people who can't practice real taekwondo for whatever reason, like a lack of nearby facilities, scheduling issues or lockdowns. Virtual matches, either with bots or other players online, would also be more motivating for some people to practice than just following YouTube tutorials. Overall seems like a neat way to try to stay fit.
But as a serious esport event people watch? That's where it becomes ridiculous to me. The main value I'd see from watching virtual taekwondo would be for comedy value of people knocking stuff over or ridiculous stuff happening in-game, like fighting a dragon.
No guns, no chance, and I assume licencing is a blocker as well. What popular eSport is there besides chess that isn't owned by a games company? The only way I see this working is if the IOC...
No guns, no chance, and I assume licencing is a blocker as well. What popular eSport is there besides chess that isn't owned by a games company?
The only way I see this working is if the IOC creates generic versions of popular eSport genres, that are designed so that the skills are transferrable. A fighting game with similar (but legally distinct) mechanical richness to Tekken but minimalist visuals. Off-brand StarCraft where the units are throwing tomatoes. Mario Kart but without the randomised item drops. Nerf gun Valorant.
Well, at least there is finally a way to have Chess as an Olympic sport! It’s been proposed for at least a hundred years, but was always denied as not having enough athleticism. I don’t see why it...
Well, at least there is finally a way to have Chess as an Olympic sport! It’s been proposed for at least a hundred years, but was always denied as not having enough athleticism. I don’t see why it can’t be an eSport. Maybe they could add board games to the mix… I wouldn’t mind a gold medal in Settlers of Catan.
There's been a lot of chatter about sportswashing from Saudi Arabia, and I think this is just a huge continuation of this. Saudi Arabia notably has a very poor (to say the least) track record when it comes to human rights, but have been trying to take over eSports in the last couple of years. They bought ESL, hosted the eSports World Cup, and now is hosting the official Olympic eSports games. I'm nervous to see what happens in the future as they get their hands in more and more of these events.
It's a baffling attempt that will go nowhere. Some decision makers on the side of the olympic games probably getting hefty "donations" or "seats at the board" to wire them great amounts of cash from Saudi Arabia.
Unless the actual most popular e-sports are represented here- LoL, Dota, CSGO, a number of fighting games, etc. no one relevant will care.
I think properly done this could be a great project. I hate to see it squandered like this, but then again, Saudi Arabia has been squandering pretty much all of their cash. I can't believe the amount of stupid shit they do with the actually infinite amount of money that they have.
Cultural exchanges go both ways. If sportswashing is what it takes to introduce them to other ideals we think are important that ultimately ends up being a good thing.
The one thing that improves ignorance is contact.
I actually don't think international sporting events (e or otherwise) should ever be held in places where my existence is against the law, and I don't think giving Saudi Arabia a ton of money via hosting one is going to magically make them not criminalize my existence anymore.
I don't think that's true in this context specifically though. Like MimicSquid says, it's a one directional thing where they get to show off their money mostly. Furthermore, you end up in a poor place specifically for women's competition (you can look at Anna Muzychuk a couple of years ago in Chess )and subject them to backwards rules in order to compete.
This only goes one way, though. If Saudi Arabia gets to show off their wealth and power on broadcast TV through the Olympics, there may be bidirectional exchange for the people that attend in person, but everyone who watches on TV only gets to consume the propaganda.
It doesn't go one way. Every attendee from a different country brings with them different values. Change is wrought by the people, so change the people.
We're talking about the intent of changing their values. Something prohibitively difficult since nobody likes being told what to think or do. The one method you and I have is exposure.
Except, you know, attendees that can't safely travel to Saudi Arabia. Fuck their values, ig.
And that will never change without some cultural osmosis. So yeah, pick your poison. I prefer the sportswashing, that at least has a chance for change in the long run.
I'm not trying to convince you, your opinion on this is just as valid and I can understand why you would take this position. There is nothing wrong with that, please don't think I'm trying to diminish that with my own opinion.
Is nebulous "cultural osmosis" worth it if literally any competitor who isn't a straight cis man is unable to compete under equal conditions with their straight cis male peers because of where the competition is held? I know gaming culture has its stereotypes but this is also an issue.
This is genuinely my concern. Because even in the chess competitor's example in another thread, while the competition itself did not require a gendered modest dress code (same suit and high collar shirt reqs for everyone), leaving the competition site to do any of the cultural osmosis would apparently have required her to wear an abaya and or hijab, to be escorted by a man, etc.
If culturally she cannot really engage with Saudis particularly Saudi men who may not even engage with her due to cultural restrictions, little osmosis happens. And that doesn't even get into someone who is gay or trans.
I think that "change being wrought by the people" depends to some degree on the amount of political power "the people" have? In a democratic system, the people theoretically have at least some power over the state, but the degree to which that is true in Saudi Arabia is an open question. To my mind, the people who actually have political power in Saudi Arabia are already well-exposed to the rest of the world, and they're happy to hold on to power at home in the way they always have. Will exposing them to a bunch of Olympic tourists actually open their eyes to anything new?
Not immediately, no. But will the opposite happen immediately? Also no.
Cultural influence is a long term thing.
Their leadership isn't keen to change their winning position, so perhaps the people need to be inspired to change their leadership. And no, that won't happen overnight either. But the fewer people believe in their leadership, the weaker it'll become.
Long story short, I don't think sportswashing is as harmful as being implied. Rather, I think it's beneficial in the long run, when tourism and sports tourism increases and the tourists start demanding things like having a beer during their match, or something else relevant. Things that will open the eyes of the locals that they aren't as free to do as they want.
Cultural influence is banned - the House of Said derives it's legitimacy from the Wahhabi sect, who have an absurdly strict interpretation of Islam that will never permit homosexuality. They're religious extremists, and the Saudis need them.
You know what happens to anyone who voices their western cultural influence? They get Khashoggi'd.
I'm not talking about the leadership. You can't convince the house of saud to change their winning formula.
If the leadership isn’t going to accept it, what is the end game? Are we hoping to inject enough gay into their culture they throw a violent coup? This seems incredibly unrealistic to me.
Edit: it also occurs to me that the country is not exactly a monolith. It is not closed to tourism and it has an Internet connection and political ties to other countries. The Olympics don’t seem to be at all necessary for this kind of transportation, and just lets them enjoy the economic benefit of tourism caused by their ”forget about our human rights abuses and look at this shiny thing” approach.
From what I've heard, they're still not allowing any games with shooting people or with any randomness at all, so I expect it will be very bad. Virtual chess, some sports games you've never heard of, a racing game, and that's probably it. At the best some fighting game might make it in, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to watch this.
I'm saying that every time the subject comes forward: Tetris ought to be in this eOlympic :
Tetris was my first thought too. Though it DOES have random chance involved with what pieces you get, so I suppose it would be banned from this one. I remember a big fuss at a tournament where someone didn't get any line clears or something similarly ridiculous because he was holding out for a straight line piece which just never came.
You do the same thing that classic Tetris does: give players the same randomization. The Tetris Classic World Cup gives the same piece to a pair of competitors to ensure fair competition.
Grandmaster or any Guideline could probably be built out with similarly bespoke adjustments.
You wouldn't want to see garbage blocks in play for similar randomness reasons but things like marathon or 40L could work.
From what I've seen both TGM and guideline games have common seed in VS modes
But you're probably talking about single player and indeed that something to be adapted... Or not even necessary: the recent PS4 and Switch) TGM port (well, more of an emulation than a real port) caravan mode was initially bugged because it was implemented by loading a saved state, effectively locking the seed.
You can make garbage 100% deterministic. See TGM approach : take the cleared lines (sans the clearing pièce) and send them vertically flipped. This adds some tactical depth too (the solo strat of doing a Tetris well doesn't work as well).
Most modern Tetris implements a specific random piece generator that prevent egregiously bad sequence (more on this article) . Modern VS Tetris is deterministic enough that you can have openers stack that guarantees some high scoring moves (for instance if the DT canon guarantee a tspins double and a tspins triple).
Doubt that the IOC would want to license with the Tetris company due to money or ownership concerns. "Olympic Tetromino Sport" maybe?
The only Olympic approved "fighting" game I know of so far is Virtual Taekwondo which looks pretty stupid to me. Real life Taekwondo is already in the Olympics. So why would anyone want to watch two people performing similar moves against thin air, with the hits only being simulated in a virtual environment? I genuinely don't get it. It feels like making shadow boxing an Olympic event.
But AFAIK there are, as yet, no other fighting games being considered by the IOC. And sadly, I doubt any of the kind most gamers/esports fans would think of as fighting games, based on fantasy, and played via a controller, are likely to ever get approved. For whatever reason the IOC seems to think Olympic esports should be entirely based on already established real life sports.
Of all the applications of VR games I'm confident this is the dumbest one. For the exact same reasons you mentioned. Real Taekwondo is a thing, why introduce the same thing but worse.
If you think Virtual Taekwondo is dumb, wait til you see Tic Tac Bow, the archery mobile game that was created for the Olympic Esports Series. ;)
The first comment on that video says "this is genuinely embarrassing". And he's right.
It makes sense to me to some degree for people who can't practice real taekwondo for whatever reason, like a lack of nearby facilities, scheduling issues or lockdowns. Virtual matches, either with bots or other players online, would also be more motivating for some people to practice than just following YouTube tutorials. Overall seems like a neat way to try to stay fit.
But as a serious esport event people watch? That's where it becomes ridiculous to me. The main value I'd see from watching virtual taekwondo would be for comedy value of people knocking stuff over or ridiculous stuff happening in-game, like fighting a dragon.
No guns, no chance, and I assume licencing is a blocker as well. What popular eSport is there besides chess that isn't owned by a games company?
The only way I see this working is if the IOC creates generic versions of popular eSport genres, that are designed so that the skills are transferrable. A fighting game with similar (but legally distinct) mechanical richness to Tekken but minimalist visuals. Off-brand StarCraft where the units are throwing tomatoes. Mario Kart but without the randomised item drops. Nerf gun Valorant.
I'll be curious to see what games are in the running, after the baffling list that was floated the last time this came up.
Well, at least there is finally a way to have Chess as an Olympic sport! It’s been proposed for at least a hundred years, but was always denied as not having enough athleticism. I don’t see why it can’t be an eSport. Maybe they could add board games to the mix… I wouldn’t mind a gold medal in Settlers of Catan.