13 votes

Assassins Creed Shadows and stealth

So Assassins Creed Shadows released this week, and so far the discourse surrounding the game is really all over the place with lots of good and bad reviews across the spectrum. I was a big fan of the Assassins Creed games from 1-3, and then I skipped the PS4 console generation so I didnt play any of the more recent ones. But this new one is about ninjas, which is rad, so Ive been following news about the game.

One thing I noticed, which is the main thing I want to discuss, when seeing clips of the game online is the focus on sword combat, and more specifically open combat. I dont know if this is a thing that became more of a focus in earlier games like Valhala or if its more a response to the success of Ghost of Tsushima. Im wondering if anyone else has thoughts on how the role of combat has evolved as the series has advanced.

In my personal view, a ninja assassin game should have minimal focus on direct combat. The ideal way an assassination should go is something like this:

  1. Do some early missions to gather intel or do prep work

  2. Take on "the approach" to your target, which will involve a combination of parkouring over rooftops and stealth kills to remove guards. Your efforts in step 1 will make this easier or harder.

  3. Get into position and wait for the right moment when the target moves into the right place

  4. Spring your trap, whether that be pouncing on them with a dagger or setting off an explosive or whatever

  5. Drop a smoke bomb, disappear into the shadows, maybe jump off a rooftop into a haystack for good measure

When pulled off correctly, it should be like you were never there. Aside from the dead guy. If you are getting into a direct head on confrontation as a ninja, you have fucked up at ninja. To this end, I feel that in a stealth assassination game open combat should be more of a penalty for when you screw up and get caught, not part of the core strategy.

Looking back at the early games, this concept was applied in AC1. Getting into a fight with a Templar was pretty difficult and tedious. You didnt want to get stuck doing it, and if you did it was often better to just run. The times you were forced to fight head on it felt like you were trapped in a dire situation that was not to your advantage, so it was a good way to apply pressure to the player to make a scene seem tense.

In AC2 the combat was reworked and became significantly easier. I actually really like the way it was implemented. Technically you can get away with just hammering away at most weaker enemies until you break their guard, but the combat really shines when you fight defensively. If you focus in dodging and counter-kills, big fights become a thing of beauty. Ezio dodges and weaves effortlessly through the crowd, doing a slick spin slash every so often to slice a bad guys neck. Its all very stylistic and elegant and graceful in a way that makes Ezio look like a badass but is still very evocative of the idea of a master assassin.

And then AC3 is fine, I don't have a ton to say about that one.

Returning to Shadows, when I look at clips of people playing the game there is a lot of sword combat. The combat seems to often follow a pattern where the enemy will perform a fixed attack pattern with visual indications like a colored aura around their weapon, which the player must mitigate through precision by either dodge rolls or parrys, after which there will be a pause during which the player can whack at the enemy a few times and reduce their health bar. Repeat a couple times until they are killed. I think it is specifically the hacking away at an enemy like you are taking a machete to jungle foliage that I dont like about this. Whittling away at an enemy who just tanks it and soaks up damage feels decidedly un-assassiny to me.

Now, if open combat is intended to be a big part of the game then I can see why this is the case. You cant make every enemy a long drawn out chore like AC1 because if youre going to have to do this like a hundred times that will get old fast. And you cant do glorified quick time events like AC2 because itd be too quick and a major pillar of your gameplay will feel trivial. So I can see why this newer style of combat is being used, I just don't feel its a great fit for the genre.

What are your thoughts? Are you a fan of stealth-action games? Do you enjoy dodge-roll-centric combat? How would you want to see combat handled in an assassins creed type game?

16 comments

  1. [6]
    stu2b50
    Link
    It hasn't been like that for a while. In the end, that kind of stealth become fairly unpopular after the 2000s. The last major AAA game I can remember with it is Dishonored and Dishonored 2, and...

    It hasn't been like that for a while. In the end, that kind of stealth become fairly unpopular after the 2000s. The last major AAA game I can remember with it is Dishonored and Dishonored 2, and you can still rip and tear through either (you just get the bad ending).

    AC has been an action-y 3rd person action game with minor, mostly stylistic stealth (as in, it's more the feeling of stealth, as opposed to stealth being the central gameplay mechanic) for longer than it was an actual stealth-based game.

    So it is what it is. There's not a whole lot of people that enjoy stealth (as can be seen by all the complaining about how you need to actually be stealthy in dishonored to get the good ending), and AC is a very mainstream series.

    12 votes
    1. F13
      Link Parent
      The new Hitman games very heavily punish direct combat.

      The new Hitman games very heavily punish direct combat.

      14 votes
    2. [2]
      BashCrandiboot
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Man, those were the days. AC1 just felt like a whole new level of gaming when it came out. I can see why slower, more deliberate stealth play fell out of style as gaming became more and more...

      Man, those were the days. AC1 just felt like a whole new level of gaming when it came out. I can see why slower, more deliberate stealth play fell out of style as gaming became more and more mainstream, but I appreciate it so much more now. Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow was one of my favorite games growing up, and the way that series evolved (and the AC series for that matter) epitomizes the modernization of gaming imo. At least on console.

      7 votes
      1. updawg
        Link Parent
        Of course, open combat was so simple in AC1 that it was often the easier option.

        Of course, open combat was so simple in AC1 that it was often the easier option.

        1 vote
    3. Grayscail
      Link Parent
      I know I don't have any sway over how the Assassins Creed series develops, I just think its an interesting question in terms of game design philosophy.

      I know I don't have any sway over how the Assassins Creed series develops, I just think its an interesting question in terms of game design philosophy.

      1 vote
    4. jujubunicorn
      Link Parent
      I actually think the people complaining about that in dishonored were the vocal minority. I mean Last of Us 2 heavily incentives stealth in its first half and that game was very popular (if not a...

      I actually think the people complaining about that in dishonored were the vocal minority. I mean Last of Us 2 heavily incentives stealth in its first half and that game was very popular (if not a bit divisive because of the silly controversy).

      1 vote
  2. [6]
    ACEmat
    Link
    I've put about 20 hours into the game so far, and although the combat does play out as you see, you can absolutely play Naoe to the criteria you provided. There's even a setting for one hit...

    I've put about 20 hours into the game so far, and although the combat does play out as you see, you can absolutely play Naoe to the criteria you provided. There's even a setting for one hit assassinations, like the original games, so your hidden blade bypasses the RPG mechanics.

    One caveat to that is that the game isn't really made with that in mind, and a large part of the skill tree is dedicated to increasing your abilities to assassinate stronger enemies.

    But I've been having fun keeping the assassinations as intended, and playing on Expert difficulty, both for combat and stealth. It's given me big 'sneaky sneaky ninja' energy. Hell, Naoe goes down in like 3 hits for me, so if I don't play stealthy, it usually ends in a reload for me. xD

    9 votes
    1. [5]
      Clarty
      Link Parent
      I think it looks interesting, with the thick vegetation and crawling mechanics. Does it manage to separate itself from the likes of valhalla, style wise? (I didn't see much point in playing mirage).

      I think it looks interesting, with the thick vegetation and crawling mechanics.
      Does it manage to separate itself from the likes of valhalla, style wise? (I didn't see much point in playing mirage).

      1. [3]
        clayh
        Link Parent
        To me, it doesn’t feel anything like Valhalla. Naoe will go down in 1-2 hits to a more powerful enemy and playing as her requires embracing stealth. I think expert difficulty gives enemies...

        To me, it doesn’t feel anything like Valhalla. Naoe will go down in 1-2 hits to a more powerful enemy and playing as her requires embracing stealth. I think expert difficulty gives enemies vertical detection cones so even sneaking around on the roofs is challenging. Yasuke is more of a tank character, similar to Eivor.

        I did not really like Valhalla. The world, characters, and interactions all feel more polished and interesting to me in Shadows. All other things aside, the combat is better executed and more enjoyable to me.

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          Clarty
          Link Parent
          This is what I wanted to hear! Argh, I'm going to end up getting this thing at this rate. Gotta hold off!

          This is what I wanted to hear! Argh, I'm going to end up getting this thing at this rate.
          Gotta hold off!

          1 vote
          1. CaptainMcAnus
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I'll reiterate what the post above said, however, I will say that expert stealth feels a little overtuned currently for rooftop spotting. It's something that can be patched out, it's just worth...

            I'll reiterate what the post above said, however, I will say that expert stealth feels a little overtuned currently for rooftop spotting. It's something that can be patched out, it's just worth noting, it feels like vertical vision cones aren't treated like peripheral cones, even if they are.

            That being said, it's the best stealth the series has had and its so nice to see people recognizing that as a lifelong fan of the genre.

            1 vote
      2. ACEmat
        Link Parent
        I should probably add that I have literally only played AC1 and like 6 hours of Unity. I have no clue.

        I should probably add that I have literally only played AC1 and like 6 hours of Unity. I have no clue.

  3. [2]
    slade
    Link
    I have a similar opinion of what makes a really fun stealth game. I don't have a lot to add to the topic, but wanted to suggest Tenchu: Stealth Assassins if you haven't already tried it. It's an...

    I have a similar opinion of what makes a really fun stealth game. I don't have a lot to add to the topic, but wanted to suggest Tenchu: Stealth Assassins if you haven't already tried it. It's an old game (1998) but I remember it scratching the stealthy ninja assassin itch very well, and the aesthetic was really nice. I don't recall there being many (if any) missions that you couldn't complete fully stealthed.

    3 votes
    1. Asinine
      Link Parent
      I've been looking for a game that could match Tenchu for well, nearing 30 years now. I actually bought a PSX about 10 years ago when I got Tenchu on ebay... and went to play it and the disc...

      I've been looking for a game that could match Tenchu for well, nearing 30 years now. I actually bought a PSX about 10 years ago when I got Tenchu on ebay... and went to play it and the disc snapped in half. :(

      4 votes
  4. [2]
    jcd
    (edited )
    Link
    I have only played the old thief games (thief 1, 2 and deadly shadows) and dishonored (not AC). I found thief 2 really amazing, but all those games require a level of time and effort/energy that I...

    I have only played the old thief games (thief 1, 2 and deadly shadows) and dishonored (not AC).

    I found thief 2 really amazing, but all those games require a level of time and effort/energy that I haven't nowadays.

    Stealth games can be very fun, but not possible in my current life phase.

    Honorable mention on a good FOSS stealth game (built like and by fans of the thief series): https://www.thedarkmod.com/main/

    1 vote
    1. Grayscail
      Link Parent
      Yeah, thats true. I really like the Thief series, but going into a level is a time commitment, and that makes it hard to revisit unless I feel like I have a lot of time on hand.

      Yeah, thats true. I really like the Thief series, but going into a level is a time commitment, and that makes it hard to revisit unless I feel like I have a lot of time on hand.