The only item in this video that was completely news to me was how Xbox failed to capitalize on the gacha games craze. Still, this is probably the best summary of the situation that I’ve seen out...
The only item in this video that was completely news to me was how Xbox failed to capitalize on the gacha games craze. Still, this is probably the best summary of the situation that I’ve seen out there, as it goes through much of the console’s history.
One personal note on Game Pass: It seems to me that Microsoft wants to bring the service to every platform, either via cloud gaming (gag) or otherwise. I guess that they want to have their own “Steam” of sorts, but you pay a subscription, and that’s what the problem is. It might be great for the consumer (in the short term), but it’s a disaster for developers. I can only hope that Xbox and Microsoft as a whole have lost so much goodwill and popularity, that people will stick with Sony, Nintendo, Valve, and the myriad of handheld manufacturers, and that the latter will avoid Windows in favor of Android or SteamOS.
I hate this subscription nightmare timeline that we’re living in. I wish we’d go back to a time where you purchased entertainment products individually and owned them. If physical media completely went away, that’d be sad, but I see some advantages to that (the environment, for example). But ownership going away, that is only going to spell disaster in the long term. Steam isn’t perfect, but you can buy games individually there still. It’s not a Netflix of games, which it should never try to be. And then there’s GOG, which is a light of hope, getting rid of DRM and respecting ownership.
I mean aren't games like FIFA and NBA Jam basically just Gatcha games now? I guess that's not Microsoft but they're still on the platform and probably some of the most popular games left on there haha
I mean aren't games like FIFA and NBA Jam basically just Gatcha games now? I guess that's not Microsoft but they're still on the platform and probably some of the most popular games left on there haha
Yeah, but they're also on Playstation so if you also randomly wanted to pick up that hot new game everyone was talking about, and it happened to be a PS exclusive, you were completely out of luck.
Yeah, but they're also on Playstation so if you also randomly wanted to pick up that hot new game everyone was talking about, and it happened to be a PS exclusive, you were completely out of luck.
I think it's much more of a mixed-bag when it comes to developers. Obviously it depends on how much Microsoft pays them for people trying their games on game pass. But also one of my favorite...
It might be great for the consumer (in the short term), but it’s a disaster for developers.
I think it's much more of a mixed-bag when it comes to developers. Obviously it depends on how much Microsoft pays them for people trying their games on game pass. But also one of my favorite games was made by devs who explicitly said the game would never have gotten made if it weren't for game pass.
It's a similar story to Apple Arcade, Stadia, or even the Epic Games Store deals. I imagine the payout in the beginning is great because the service wants to grab a solid launch and year-1 window....
It's a similar story to Apple Arcade, Stadia, or even the Epic Games Store deals. I imagine the payout in the beginning is great because the service wants to grab a solid launch and year-1 window. But then when that service doesn't magiaclly make a billion dollars off of essentially giving away hundreds of games for one price the executives panic and don;t invest as much in the platform. And as such the deals go from "can comfortably develop the entire game" to "minor soource of income to fund game".
So anyone who got in early essentially got the Gold Rush. Everyone else is left with scraps.
As did the entire western hemisphere. It's an odd phenomenon where they see a goldmine and business tycoons just... seemingly ignored it. They became too fixated on chasing Fortnite's battle...
The only item in this video that was completely news to me was how Xbox failed to capitalize on the gacha games craze
As did the entire western hemisphere. It's an odd phenomenon where they see a goldmine and business tycoons just... seemingly ignored it. They became too fixated on chasing Fortnite's battle royale instead which focused on grabbing the attention of PC gamers. Meanwhile, a mobile production would have been lower production and maintainenace cost, while appealing to a new audience entirely (with some bleeding in from PC gamers).
The only real compromise was buying up the big western mobile companies to get revenue from the hypercasual audience. Which doesn't really leverage their big advantadge over these chinese/korean gacha: their ability to leverage their long standing IPs. At best, Fallout Shelter was pretty charming for what it was.
As @OBLIVIATER rightly points out, FIFA and other sports games can be considered Western gacha games. None have reached the runaway heights of things like Genshin Impact or Wuthering Waves though.
As @OBLIVIATER rightly points out, FIFA and other sports games can be considered Western gacha games.
None have reached the runaway heights of things like Genshin Impact or Wuthering Waves though.
Mechanically, yes. But they don't really capture the essence of why Genshin is popular and what particular psychological tricks being used to influence whales. The fact that the Fifa games still...
Mechanically, yes. But they don't really capture the essence of why Genshin is popular and what particular psychological tricks being used to influence whales. The fact that the Fifa games still charge $70 already shows they understand part of how the financial model can explode if they were willing to let go of old norms
Because the success of the gacha games is arguably primarily correlated to how sexy people can find the characters, frankly speaking. If you go to the main subreddits or forums of Genshin,...
Because the success of the gacha games is arguably primarily correlated to how sexy people can find the characters, frankly speaking. If you go to the main subreddits or forums of Genshin, Wuthering Waves, Zoneless Zen Zero, Honkai Star Rail, or many other big ones, you will immediately find NSFW images at the top at any given point.
It cannot be ignored how big of a factor this is in determining the success potential of a gacha game. It's not that the western world just completely missed it, it's that nobody in the west would attempt to make products like these.
You're close. Appeal can be appeal in multiple ways. And yes, on the internet any appeal can quickly turn sexual. Rule 34 never truly left the West, after all. But games like Dragon Ball Dokkan...
You're close. Appeal can be appeal in multiple ways. And yes, on the internet any appeal can quickly turn sexual. Rule 34 never truly left the West, after all.
But games like Dragon Ball Dokkan didn't need to rely on that kind of fanservice to be successful. There are ways to make appealing characters without relying on sexual fanservice. I think Marvel Rivals is a small peek into the kind of art design and direction that makes this possible, even if it doesn't commit to the model.
I agree it puts off western studios though. Another aspect is that it seems the US saw some action in the EU over banning lootboxes and really shied away from the model out of potential litigation. Moving more towards battle passes and direct buy skins instead of taking the risk with lootboxes.
I don't really follow these games much so I looked up some lists of the most successful gacha games, the ones that are way bigger than FIFA and sports ones. Many of them have that Rule 34 aspect...
I don't really follow these games much so I looked up some lists of the most successful gacha games, the ones that are way bigger than FIFA and sports ones. Many of them have that Rule 34 aspect to their communities. I haven't even heard of Dragon Ball Dokkan before your comment. If we're comparing against FIFA/sports gacha, it seems like DB Dokkan is more in line with them than the ones I previously listed, right?
Marvel Rivals is interesting because I didn't think much of it until I saw how their new Emma Frost and new costumes for female characters are going. That game turned very horny pretty quick. Seeing the poster that Twitch has up for Marvel Rivals was quite a find.
Personally, I feel like we're in the Steve Ballmer era of the Xbox division. That means we'll eventually get a better, golden-y era of Xbox, right? Maybe. Eventually. I think the video's point...
Personally, I feel like we're in the Steve Ballmer era of the Xbox division. That means we'll eventually get a better, golden-y era of Xbox, right? Maybe. Eventually.
I think the video's point about a focus on XGP, PC gaming (and thus Windows sales), and things like that are valid. They have more issues, though, and some things off the top of my head that I don't think the video touched on:
The PlayStation controller is straight up better in every way. The special coating on it so you can still game with sweaty hands is actually amazing. Some of the pressure sensitive buttons/triggers improve the experience. Going back and forth between a PS5 and a Series X is night and day.
The popularity of Nintendo games is outstanding and probably drawing a lot of people away from Xbox and PlayStation both, but when people go for one of the two, they're picking PlayStation for PS4-era and PS5-era exclusives (Bloodborne, Sekiro, all the PSVR games, etc.).
There's a lot more pop-culture around the PS5. Lots of athletes and music artists have PS5s and talk about playing on it. (My buddy and I have both run into famous people while playing CoD, lmao.)
PlayStation has some good integration with other services (music, Discord).
I think initially the PlayStation Plus service for internet was just a lot more clear. Xbox Live and then XGP have always been confusing, tough to manage, and I have documented proof that MS is letting XGP credits run concurrently instead of adding onto the existing time (this is fucking illegal!! Fuck Symantec for doing this as well).
I wonder if, like a number of Microsoft products, the concept of having two tiers of the same console (Series S and Series X) was just too early. Frame generation and related tech might have bridged the gap between tiers in a general way, while offering premium quality on the higher-tier system for people who wanted to buy it. But launching against a PS5 that basically performed the same at either price point just hurt. I guess that's one reason why they had that interesting financing available for some Xbox Series customers.
I also wonder if someone couldn't plot the senior-level enthusiasm of the Xbox division against the ebb and flow of a game-as-a-service like Sea of Thieves. As much as I love the game, it really took a while to take off, then there was a second wind and player activity and content improved, and then it's been a bit back and forth. They even did some cross-branding with Pirates of the Caribbean, which was awesome, but I don't know that they really advertised that well at the time.
This is quite literally just personal preference. I can't use a dualshock to save my life, but the Xbox controller still feels amazing even though its fundamentally the same as it was back in...
The PlayStation controller is straight up better in every way
This is quite literally just personal preference. I can't use a dualshock to save my life, but the Xbox controller still feels amazing even though its fundamentally the same as it was back in 2007.
And hell, the Xbox 360 controller is like the gold standard for tons of non-gaming stuff too, I know they use them in all sorts of applications where you need a controller (except in certain submarines)
If you're referring to the OceanGate Titan sub that imploded in 2023, that was using one of these bad boys and not an actual Xbox controller. That said, I do remember news stories Xbox controllers...
(except in certain submarines)
If you're referring to the OceanGate Titan sub that imploded in 2023, that was using one of these bad boys and not an actual Xbox controller. That said, I do remember news stories Xbox controllers being used in US Navy subs, but not for the main controls.
The U.S. Government uses Xbox controllers for a lot of Human Input because, if nothing else, they're cheap and you usually don't have to train soldiers on them. Private Timmy's Ace Combat days...
The U.S. Government uses Xbox controllers for a lot of Human Input because, if nothing else, they're cheap and you usually don't have to train soldiers on them.
Private Timmy's Ace Combat days will come back to him behind the joystick of an MQ-9 pretty quickly.
Considering what we've seen of media literacy on average, there's a pretty high chance Private Timmy is humming Bulls on Parade without realizing he's the bull.
Considering what we've seen of media literacy on average, there's a pretty high chance Private Timmy is humming Bulls on Parade without realizing he's the bull.
I thought the preference was simply because Microsoft could more easily make US military deals than Sony or Nintendo. That's probably Microsoft's only nigh-uncrossable advantadge over the major...
if nothing else, they're cheap and you usually don't have to train soldiers on them.
I thought the preference was simply because Microsoft could more easily make US military deals than Sony or Nintendo. That's probably Microsoft's only nigh-uncrossable advantadge over the major manufacturers.
Not that I think xbox controllers are bad. I do prefer the dualsense for features, but that dang touchpad definitely comprommises more in erganomics and utility than it's worth.
Features are great but for a military not having a microphone built into the controller is a feature. Besides, they started rolling things like this out in force during the 360 days, so it was DS3...
Features are great but for a military not having a microphone built into the controller is a feature.
Besides, they started rolling things like this out in force during the 360 days, so it was DS3 vs X360 and they don't fly planes by gyro.
I don't think the perfect controller exists yet. I generally use the Xbox Series controller for most things - especially for first/third person action games and racing games due to the precision...
This is quite literally just personal preference
I don't think the perfect controller exists yet.
I generally use the Xbox Series controller for most things - especially for first/third person action games and racing games due to the precision of its sticks. PS4/5 controller sticks feel very clumsy by comparison, it feels like the ramp goes from 0 to 100 too quickly. However, the fact that Series controllers don't have gyro aiming is a significant flaw in my book. The Series D-pad feels really nice in theory, but the way it's constructed results in accidental inputs when you release the direction too quickly.
I vastly prefer the button iconography of the Playstation controllers. Cross, Circle, Square and Triangle are much less ambiguous than ABXY. I also feel like L1/L2/L3 makes a lot more sense than L/ZL/Left Stick Press or LB/LT/Left Stick Press. It's also, as of the PS5, quite comfortable to hold. However, I feel like the touchpad is a gimmick, and the d-pad, while more reliable than the Xbox, also feels worse on my thumbs.
Nintendo Pro controller feels great, it has gyro aiming, the sticks are comfortable, and the d-pad feels really nice. However, the fact that ZL/ZR aren't analog kills its usefulness in terms of racing games. I also feel like the fact that the buttons don't have associated colors to be an accessibility miss. However, the biggest flaw is that native support on PC is not only incredibly dicey, but suffers from the fact that it also uses the same ABXY for its buttons, but in different slots. I've even had games that would swap the AB and XY controls automatically when you plug in a switch controller, which is super bizarre.
It really bugged me that for the Xbox 360 they put those extra trigger buttons and called them bumper. Switching from PS3 to 360 and getting prompts to press the right bumper really confused me...
It really bugged me that for the Xbox 360 they put those extra trigger buttons and called them bumper. Switching from PS3 to 360 and getting prompts to press the right bumper really confused me for a while. Also, bumpers are not buttons. Bumpers are bumpers. They're things that bump against things, which is not what you want to do with those triggers on the controller; you press them like a button, or pull them like a trigger.
The current gen Dual Sense (perhaps Dual Edge too but that's 200 dollars so I haven't tried that one lmao) is so much better than the Dual Shock it isn't even a little close.
The current gen Dual Sense (perhaps Dual Edge too but that's 200 dollars so I haven't tried that one lmao) is so much better than the Dual Shock it isn't even a little close.
First off, I agree with you, but I find this to be an interestingly divisive topic. I think the dualshock to be the best controller for me because the overall size and the sticks being the same...
The PlayStation controller is straight up better in every way
First off, I agree with you, but I find this to be an interestingly divisive topic. I think the dualshock to be the best controller for me because the overall size and the sticks being the same level. The XBox controller always felt to be an "American" sized controller to me, almost needlessly large because larger is better. Also, for probably patent reasons, they completely flipped the ABXY from Nintendo, which completely screws me up over and over and over.
Finally, the only reason why XBox controller might be considered "better" than the Dualshock controller is PC support. Not hardware compatibility, plug in the Dualshock by USB and you have the full experience. It's the UI compatibility. So many games on PC that support controller only bother to put in XBox glyphs, even though they release a PS version of the game. I frequently have to mod games to get the right glyphs to show up (Because I don't have the XBox ABXY memorized) and it's always a chore.
The only controller I liked better than the dualshock was the Gamecube controller, I felt that one was one of the most tactile and fun controllers I ever used. I still have a pair of them for the rare Smash Bros game and I am excited to put them to use again on the Switch 2's Gamecube emulator.
There is nothing needless about it, IMO, and larger actually is better for plenty of people... myself included. I have pretty big hands and Dualshock controllers genuinely give me hand cramps...
The XBox controller always felt to be an "American" sized controller to me, almost needlessly large because larger is better.
There is nothing needless about it, IMO, and larger actually is better for plenty of people... myself included. I have pretty big hands and Dualshock controllers genuinely give me hand cramps after using them for a while because of how small/compact they are. I feel like an eagle desperately holding onto a mouse when using a Dualshock because of how much I have to constrict my fingers to properly grasp it, which also puts the buttons/d-pad/analog-sticks in an especially awkward position for me to use.
But I don't get the same issue with Xbox controllers, which are far more comfortable for me to use, especially for extended periods. And I suspect that is mostly where the opinion divide stems from; People with bigger hands probably generally prefer Xbox controllers, and people with smaller hands probably generally prefer Dualshock ones. I think it's really that simple.
The buttons on the Xbox controller were that way because they were copying Sega. The first controller actually had six face buttons in the exact same layout as the Saturn pad but with C and Z...
The buttons on the Xbox controller were that way because they were copying Sega. The first controller actually had six face buttons in the exact same layout as the Saturn pad but with C and Z buttons changed to black and white. As someone who really likes that big jumbo sized controller, I still prefer the DualShock as well. I play a lot of games that need precise inputs and Xbox controllers all have bad digital directional buttons, even if only for the placement (though the actual buttons in the Xbox 360 controller were so bad that it was actually insulting to me).
Dang. Surprised to find another Gamecube controller lover out here. Have my vote!
The only controller I liked better than the dualshock was the Gamecube controller, I felt that one was one of the most tactile and fun controllers I ever used. I still have a pair of them for the rare Smash Bros game and I am excited to put them to use again on the Switch 2's Gamecube emulator.
Dang. Surprised to find another Gamecube controller lover out here. Have my vote!
Couldn’t agree more. I think they really peaked with the GCN controller. The Wii Remote + Nunchuck was perfect... for the Wii, but everything else that came after just feels like a downgrade...
Couldn’t agree more. I think they really peaked with the GCN controller. The Wii Remote + Nunchuck was perfect... for the Wii, but everything else that came after just feels like a downgrade somehow. I wonder why they gave up on the GCN controller’s iconic button layout in favor of the more standard one, and why new joysticks don’t have the “grooves” that those on the GCN controller had, which make keeping the joystick straight so much easier.
With the buttons layout, it's probably a compatibility thing to make it easier for third party devs to port/test their games by matching the "standard" layout, as well as match the DS layout....
With the buttons layout, it's probably a compatibility thing to make it easier for third party devs to port/test their games by matching the "standard" layout, as well as match the DS layout. Makes it easier for people to transition to a whole new console. Though that doesn't explain the lack of grooves for the joystick. I'm guessing they just wanted to go with a sleek design for them, but it's a bit too sleek.
I'm the complete opposite. I just bought an 8BitDo Lite 2 controller to use with my Steam Deck, particularly when travelling. Much smaller and lighter than a full-sized controller. Anyway, it uses...
Also, for probably patent reasons, they completely flipped the ABXY from Nintendo, which completely screws me up over and over and over.
I'm the complete opposite. I just bought an 8BitDo Lite 2 controller to use with my Steam Deck, particularly when travelling. Much smaller and lighter than a full-sized controller. Anyway, it uses the Nintendo-style layout. I'm so used to using Dualshock controllers and my Steam Controller (which I think is based on XBox), that I didn't even think to check the layout. I even have an 8BitDo Micro, but I totally forgot that it too uses the Nintendo layout. Luckily in Steam, it's a simple on/off controller setting to use the Nintendo layout. Which I turn off; don't even have to remap.
I have a Nintendo Switch, but I rarely use it since getting a Steam Deck. But when I do pick it up, for the first few minutes, I'm constantly pressing 'B' to confirm or 'A' to cancel/go back, getting confused, then realizing, "Oh, that's right. It's the opposite here. *Sigh*". Of course, when I switch back to my Steam Deck or other controllers, then I have the opposite issue for a few minutes.
And as a smaller guy, perhaps even "Short King" some might say (anybody? No? OK...😞), I have smaller hands. So Dualshocks, the Switch itself, even separate Joy-Cons, and that 8BitDo Micro are no issue for me. Doesn't hurt my hands or anything even after long play sessions.
Now, I've got hands that can comfortably use the Duke, as a point of reference, but Dualshocks (and more so, Dualsense these days) don't feel small at all. Ergonomically, it more depends on the...
Now, I've got hands that can comfortably use the Duke, as a point of reference, but Dualshocks (and more so, Dualsense these days) don't feel small at all. Ergonomically, it more depends on the type of movement I'm doing. "Stick up" movement is more comfortable on the Xbox layout, and by proxy Switch Pro, just due to the angle. "Stick right" is fine on either (shorter fingers would likely make this worse) but "Stick left" is more comfortable on the PS layout (or my 8Bitdo Pro 2) because I rotate my fingers differently.
So, I may prefer to play a racing game or top down shooter with a PS stick, where a third person action game may be more comfortable on Xbox sticks.
I think the real difference isn't quite 'hand size' for everyone but the biomechanics of stick modulation. Of course, not everyone can afford to buy both and figure out which one they like better, far cheaper to just claim the one you own is better. For instance, I love the 8Bitdo Pro 2 more than most of my controllers but find the SN30 mostly unusable as anything more than a SNES controller.
And, if you can use the Joycon comfortably for anything more than Mario party play, I'll give you short king status. I have the Satisfye grip basically permanently attached to my Switch and had to use the AA battery grips for two player Captain Toad.
But you really can't beat the industry standard amount of compatibility that the Xbox Controller offers - sometimes I don't want to spend the time setting up a Steam Controller or DualSense (I wish they just called it the DS5).
Funnily enough Steam Deck has a system-wide setting under Controller to swap the buttons to match the Switch, though it doesn't change the labels in the UI. As a Switch-first user, I toggled it on...
Funnily enough Steam Deck has a system-wide setting under Controller to swap the buttons to match the Switch, though it doesn't change the labels in the UI. As a Switch-first user, I toggled it on day one. Maybe that setting can be applied to an external controller too? Would be hilarious if it works given the name is "Use Nintendo Button Layout".
Yup! That's the one I'm talking about, and it def applies even to external controllers. It's actually a per controller -- including the Deck controls itself -- option. I was actually wrong in...
Yup! That's the one I'm talking about, and it def applies even to external controllers. It's actually a per controller -- including the Deck controls itself -- option.
I was actually wrong in saying I turned it Off for the 8BitDo. Because the 8BitDo is programmed to use the Nintendo layout, turning the Nintendo layout On on the Steam Deck options for this controller actually turns the controller into XBox/Playstation layout! It just reverses the the X/Y and A/B.
Ah, somehow missed the sentence about you turning that on. Good to know it works! Also good to know that I may need to disable it when I finally get a setup for docking it.
Ah, somehow missed the sentence about you turning that on. Good to know it works! Also good to know that I may need to disable it when I finally get a setup for docking it.
I mean, I have a fondness for the GameCube controller for smash, but it’s not well suited for general use. The c-stick nub instead of a full joystick is very weird for 3D games, it’s missing a...
I mean, I have a fondness for the GameCube controller for smash, but it’s not well suited for general use. The c-stick nub instead of a full joystick is very weird for 3D games, it’s missing a second shoulder button, the shoulder buttons have an absurd amount of depth (to the point where smash players often mod them with weaker springs or shorter actuation points), the Z button is very mushy.
The extra throw is great. Honestly the thing I hate about analog controls these days is that they don’t have enough throw, modern joysticks almost have enough throw but they really should be...
The extra throw is great. Honestly the thing I hate about analog controls these days is that they don’t have enough throw, modern joysticks almost have enough throw but they really should be better. And the shoulder buttons could be way better. The GameCube controllers were pretty much perfect in that regard.
oh, tell me about it. There's nothing worse than some offline PC multiplayer and telling someone to "press X". Which is the bottom face button on a playstation, the left face button on an xbox,...
Also, for probably patent reasons, they completely flipped the ABXY from Nintendo, which completely screws me up over and over and over.
oh, tell me about it. There's nothing worse than some offline PC multiplayer and telling someone to "press X". Which is the bottom face button on a playstation, the left face button on an xbox, and the top face button on the Switch. I do wish that was the one place where the competition could play nice and estaliish a single standard.
So many games on PC that support controller only bother to put in XBox glyphs, even though they release a PS version of the game.
I haven't worked on it myself, but I suspect that may be due to dev kits. Xbox, for obvious reasons, has more integration into Windows itself and may simply allow you to use those glyphs with minimal fuss.
Meanwhile, getting access to anything Sony/Nintendo would require a dev kit and various agreements. So using their glyphs may require more steps. I could be wrong on this, so don't take it as gospel.
Impossible, and I don't even think it's because of patents, but they've all connected their identity to the symbols. PlayStation especially has marketed itself through the use of its symbols. If a...
I do wish that was the one place where the competition could play nice and estaliish a single standard.
Impossible, and I don't even think it's because of patents, but they've all connected their identity to the symbols. PlayStation especially has marketed itself through the use of its symbols. If a competitor would use them it'd be free marketing.
lol Please don’t take this personally. I agree with everything else except this. After owning and using an 8bitdo Pro 2 for several months, I had to sell it away. I couldn’t play 3D games with it...
The PlayStation controller is straight up better in every way.
lol Please don’t take this personally. I agree with everything else except this. After owning and using an 8bitdo Pro 2 for several months, I had to sell it away. I couldn’t play 3D games with it anymore. It hurt my left thumb so much. It’s not about the materials. I just can’t handle playing 3D games for extended periods of time while resting my left thumb on a joystick that’s below where my thumb naturally rests. It’s so incredibly uncomfortable to hold it in place there or make any precise input. Maybe my hand is too big, or too small, or deformed in some way, but I find the left joystick placement just absolutely atrocious. Sure, it wasn’t an official DualSense, but the layout is essentially the same. I don’t know how so many people find that comfortable to play with. I since bought (lol) a regular Xbox controller and absolutely love it. Haven’t needed anything else. The only controller I like more than either of these, is the Gamecube one. I like the button layout on the right better. Makes more sense and it’s more ergonomic for me, especially if I need to press multiple buttons at once or in quick succession.
Anyway, that’s just a detail. I understand and agree with everything else you said.
Edit: I love how this thread suddenly devolved into a discussion about controllers. lol
Goes to show how noteworthy Xbox is nowadays. Edit: just so I don’t leave this comment as noise. I literally have nothing positive to say about Xbox. I owned both a 360 & a PS3 at the same time. I...
Edit: I love how this thread suddenly devolved into a discussion about controllers. lol
Goes to show how noteworthy Xbox is nowadays.
Edit: just so I don’t leave this comment as noise. I literally have nothing positive to say about Xbox. I owned both a 360 & a PS3 at the same time. I remember the Xbox as having uninteresting (to me) exclusives, being loud, taking ages to boot, having slightly worse graphics than the PS3, needing to be delicate with it to avoid the red ring of death, the uncomfortably large controller with the terrible D-Pad, and having to pay a subscription to simply play online - which at the time, was kinda unimaginable to me. Anything I wanted to play, I would’ve rather played on my PC or PS3. Which I frequently did.
Later on I resented Xbox Series S for existing, since multiplatform console games had to target it for a very long time - making the PS4 games I was playing look & perform worse than they had any reason to.
The only item in this video that was completely news to me was how Xbox failed to capitalize on the gacha games craze. Still, this is probably the best summary of the situation that I’ve seen out there, as it goes through much of the console’s history.
One personal note on Game Pass: It seems to me that Microsoft wants to bring the service to every platform, either via cloud gaming (gag) or otherwise. I guess that they want to have their own “Steam” of sorts, but you pay a subscription, and that’s what the problem is. It might be great for the consumer (in the short term), but it’s a disaster for developers. I can only hope that Xbox and Microsoft as a whole have lost so much goodwill and popularity, that people will stick with Sony, Nintendo, Valve, and the myriad of handheld manufacturers, and that the latter will avoid Windows in favor of Android or SteamOS.
I hate this subscription nightmare timeline that we’re living in. I wish we’d go back to a time where you purchased entertainment products individually and owned them. If physical media completely went away, that’d be sad, but I see some advantages to that (the environment, for example). But ownership going away, that is only going to spell disaster in the long term. Steam isn’t perfect, but you can buy games individually there still. It’s not a Netflix of games, which it should never try to be. And then there’s GOG, which is a light of hope, getting rid of DRM and respecting ownership.
I mean aren't games like FIFA and NBA Jam basically just Gatcha games now? I guess that's not Microsoft but they're still on the platform and probably some of the most popular games left on there haha
Yeah, but they're also on Playstation so if you also randomly wanted to pick up that hot new game everyone was talking about, and it happened to be a PS exclusive, you were completely out of luck.
I think it's much more of a mixed-bag when it comes to developers. Obviously it depends on how much Microsoft pays them for people trying their games on game pass. But also one of my favorite games was made by devs who explicitly said the game would never have gotten made if it weren't for game pass.
It's a similar story to Apple Arcade, Stadia, or even the Epic Games Store deals. I imagine the payout in the beginning is great because the service wants to grab a solid launch and year-1 window. But then when that service doesn't magiaclly make a billion dollars off of essentially giving away hundreds of games for one price the executives panic and don;t invest as much in the platform. And as such the deals go from "can comfortably develop the entire game" to "minor soource of income to fund game".
So anyone who got in early essentially got the Gold Rush. Everyone else is left with scraps.
As did the entire western hemisphere. It's an odd phenomenon where they see a goldmine and business tycoons just... seemingly ignored it. They became too fixated on chasing Fortnite's battle royale instead which focused on grabbing the attention of PC gamers. Meanwhile, a mobile production would have been lower production and maintainenace cost, while appealing to a new audience entirely (with some bleeding in from PC gamers).
The only real compromise was buying up the big western mobile companies to get revenue from the hypercasual audience. Which doesn't really leverage their big advantadge over these chinese/korean gacha: their ability to leverage their long standing IPs. At best, Fallout Shelter was pretty charming for what it was.
As @OBLIVIATER rightly points out, FIFA and other sports games can be considered Western gacha games.
None have reached the runaway heights of things like Genshin Impact or Wuthering Waves though.
Mechanically, yes. But they don't really capture the essence of why Genshin is popular and what particular psychological tricks being used to influence whales. The fact that the Fifa games still charge $70 already shows they understand part of how the financial model can explode if they were willing to let go of old norms
Because the success of the gacha games is arguably primarily correlated to how sexy people can find the characters, frankly speaking. If you go to the main subreddits or forums of Genshin, Wuthering Waves, Zoneless Zen Zero, Honkai Star Rail, or many other big ones, you will immediately find NSFW images at the top at any given point.
It cannot be ignored how big of a factor this is in determining the success potential of a gacha game. It's not that the western world just completely missed it, it's that nobody in the west would attempt to make products like these.
You're close. Appeal can be appeal in multiple ways. And yes, on the internet any appeal can quickly turn sexual. Rule 34 never truly left the West, after all.
But games like Dragon Ball Dokkan didn't need to rely on that kind of fanservice to be successful. There are ways to make appealing characters without relying on sexual fanservice. I think Marvel Rivals is a small peek into the kind of art design and direction that makes this possible, even if it doesn't commit to the model.
I agree it puts off western studios though. Another aspect is that it seems the US saw some action in the EU over banning lootboxes and really shied away from the model out of potential litigation. Moving more towards battle passes and direct buy skins instead of taking the risk with lootboxes.
I don't really follow these games much so I looked up some lists of the most successful gacha games, the ones that are way bigger than FIFA and sports ones. Many of them have that Rule 34 aspect to their communities. I haven't even heard of Dragon Ball Dokkan before your comment. If we're comparing against FIFA/sports gacha, it seems like DB Dokkan is more in line with them than the ones I previously listed, right?
Marvel Rivals is interesting because I didn't think much of it until I saw how their new Emma Frost and new costumes for female characters are going. That game turned very horny pretty quick. Seeing the poster that Twitch has up for Marvel Rivals was quite a find.
Personally, I feel like we're in the Steve Ballmer era of the Xbox division. That means we'll eventually get a better, golden-y era of Xbox, right? Maybe. Eventually.
I think the video's point about a focus on XGP, PC gaming (and thus Windows sales), and things like that are valid. They have more issues, though, and some things off the top of my head that I don't think the video touched on:
I wonder if, like a number of Microsoft products, the concept of having two tiers of the same console (Series S and Series X) was just too early. Frame generation and related tech might have bridged the gap between tiers in a general way, while offering premium quality on the higher-tier system for people who wanted to buy it. But launching against a PS5 that basically performed the same at either price point just hurt. I guess that's one reason why they had that interesting financing available for some Xbox Series customers.
I also wonder if someone couldn't plot the senior-level enthusiasm of the Xbox division against the ebb and flow of a game-as-a-service like Sea of Thieves. As much as I love the game, it really took a while to take off, then there was a second wind and player activity and content improved, and then it's been a bit back and forth. They even did some cross-branding with Pirates of the Caribbean, which was awesome, but I don't know that they really advertised that well at the time.
This is quite literally just personal preference. I can't use a dualshock to save my life, but the Xbox controller still feels amazing even though its fundamentally the same as it was back in 2007.
And hell, the Xbox 360 controller is like the gold standard for tons of non-gaming stuff too, I know they use them in all sorts of applications where you need a controller (except in certain submarines)
If you're referring to the OceanGate Titan sub that imploded in 2023, that was using one of these bad boys and not an actual Xbox controller. That said, I do remember news stories Xbox controllers being used in US Navy subs, but not for the main controls.
That's why I said "except in certain submarines" haha, I was explicitly excluding them, that was the joke
Honestly, that's the one part of the submarine I could confidently say was doing it's job well, which makes the joke even funnier IMO
The U.S. Government uses Xbox controllers for a lot of Human Input because, if nothing else, they're cheap and you usually don't have to train soldiers on them.
Private Timmy's Ace Combat days will come back to him behind the joystick of an MQ-9 pretty quickly.
If Private Jimmy thinks of Ace Combat while piloting drones, he failed to listen to what the series was telling him.
He's just busy humming Puddle Of Mud and wishing he could fly though a tunnel.
Considering what we've seen of media literacy on average, there's a pretty high chance Private Timmy is humming Bulls on Parade without realizing he's the bull.
I thought the preference was simply because Microsoft could more easily make US military deals than Sony or Nintendo. That's probably Microsoft's only nigh-uncrossable advantadge over the major manufacturers.
Not that I think xbox controllers are bad. I do prefer the dualsense for features, but that dang touchpad definitely comprommises more in erganomics and utility than it's worth.
Features are great but for a military not having a microphone built into the controller is a feature.
Besides, they started rolling things like this out in force during the 360 days, so it was DS3 vs X360 and they don't fly planes by gyro.
I don't think the perfect controller exists yet.
I generally use the Xbox Series controller for most things - especially for first/third person action games and racing games due to the precision of its sticks. PS4/5 controller sticks feel very clumsy by comparison, it feels like the ramp goes from 0 to 100 too quickly. However, the fact that Series controllers don't have gyro aiming is a significant flaw in my book. The Series D-pad feels really nice in theory, but the way it's constructed results in accidental inputs when you release the direction too quickly.
I vastly prefer the button iconography of the Playstation controllers. Cross, Circle, Square and Triangle are much less ambiguous than ABXY. I also feel like L1/L2/L3 makes a lot more sense than L/ZL/Left Stick Press or LB/LT/Left Stick Press. It's also, as of the PS5, quite comfortable to hold. However, I feel like the touchpad is a gimmick, and the d-pad, while more reliable than the Xbox, also feels worse on my thumbs.
Nintendo Pro controller feels great, it has gyro aiming, the sticks are comfortable, and the d-pad feels really nice. However, the fact that ZL/ZR aren't analog kills its usefulness in terms of racing games. I also feel like the fact that the buttons don't have associated colors to be an accessibility miss. However, the biggest flaw is that native support on PC is not only incredibly dicey, but suffers from the fact that it also uses the same ABXY for its buttons, but in different slots. I've even had games that would swap the AB and XY controls automatically when you plug in a switch controller, which is super bizarre.
It really bugged me that for the Xbox 360 they put those extra trigger buttons and called them bumper. Switching from PS3 to 360 and getting prompts to press the right bumper really confused me for a while. Also, bumpers are not buttons. Bumpers are bumpers. They're things that bump against things, which is not what you want to do with those triggers on the controller; you press them like a button, or pull them like a trigger.
The current gen Dual Sense (perhaps Dual Edge too but that's 200 dollars so I haven't tried that one lmao) is so much better than the Dual Shock it isn't even a little close.
First off, I agree with you, but I find this to be an interestingly divisive topic. I think the dualshock to be the best controller for me because the overall size and the sticks being the same level. The XBox controller always felt to be an "American" sized controller to me, almost needlessly large because larger is better. Also, for probably patent reasons, they completely flipped the ABXY from Nintendo, which completely screws me up over and over and over.
Finally, the only reason why XBox controller might be considered "better" than the Dualshock controller is PC support. Not hardware compatibility, plug in the Dualshock by USB and you have the full experience. It's the UI compatibility. So many games on PC that support controller only bother to put in XBox glyphs, even though they release a PS version of the game. I frequently have to mod games to get the right glyphs to show up (Because I don't have the XBox ABXY memorized) and it's always a chore.
The only controller I liked better than the dualshock was the Gamecube controller, I felt that one was one of the most tactile and fun controllers I ever used. I still have a pair of them for the rare Smash Bros game and I am excited to put them to use again on the Switch 2's Gamecube emulator.
There is nothing needless about it, IMO, and larger actually is better for plenty of people... myself included. I have pretty big hands and Dualshock controllers genuinely give me hand cramps after using them for a while because of how small/compact they are. I feel like an eagle desperately holding onto a mouse when using a Dualshock because of how much I have to constrict my fingers to properly grasp it, which also puts the buttons/d-pad/analog-sticks in an especially awkward position for me to use.
But I don't get the same issue with Xbox controllers, which are far more comfortable for me to use, especially for extended periods. And I suspect that is mostly where the opinion divide stems from; People with bigger hands probably generally prefer Xbox controllers, and people with smaller hands probably generally prefer Dualshock ones. I think it's really that simple.
The buttons on the Xbox controller were that way because they were copying Sega. The first controller actually had six face buttons in the exact same layout as the Saturn pad but with C and Z buttons changed to black and white. As someone who really likes that big jumbo sized controller, I still prefer the DualShock as well. I play a lot of games that need precise inputs and Xbox controllers all have bad digital directional buttons, even if only for the placement (though the actual buttons in the Xbox 360 controller were so bad that it was actually insulting to me).
Dang. Surprised to find another Gamecube controller lover out here. Have my vote!
I'm another one! It feels like the pinnacle of controller design to me, I genuinely don't know if Nintendo can ever top that design.
Couldn’t agree more. I think they really peaked with the GCN controller. The Wii Remote + Nunchuck was perfect... for the Wii, but everything else that came after just feels like a downgrade somehow. I wonder why they gave up on the GCN controller’s iconic button layout in favor of the more standard one, and why new joysticks don’t have the “grooves” that those on the GCN controller had, which make keeping the joystick straight so much easier.
With the buttons layout, it's probably a compatibility thing to make it easier for third party devs to port/test their games by matching the "standard" layout, as well as match the DS layout. Makes it easier for people to transition to a whole new console. Though that doesn't explain the lack of grooves for the joystick. I'm guessing they just wanted to go with a sleek design for them, but it's a bit too sleek.
I'm the complete opposite. I just bought an 8BitDo Lite 2 controller to use with my Steam Deck, particularly when travelling. Much smaller and lighter than a full-sized controller. Anyway, it uses the Nintendo-style layout. I'm so used to using Dualshock controllers and my Steam Controller (which I think is based on XBox), that I didn't even think to check the layout. I even have an 8BitDo Micro, but I totally forgot that it too uses the Nintendo layout. Luckily in Steam, it's a simple on/off controller setting to use the Nintendo layout. Which I turn off; don't even have to remap.
I have a Nintendo Switch, but I rarely use it since getting a Steam Deck. But when I do pick it up, for the first few minutes, I'm constantly pressing 'B' to confirm or 'A' to cancel/go back, getting confused, then realizing, "Oh, that's right. It's the opposite here. *Sigh*". Of course, when I switch back to my Steam Deck or other controllers, then I have the opposite issue for a few minutes.
And as a smaller guy, perhaps even "Short King" some might say (anybody? No? OK...😞), I have smaller hands. So Dualshocks, the Switch itself, even separate Joy-Cons, and that 8BitDo Micro are no issue for me. Doesn't hurt my hands or anything even after long play sessions.
Now, I've got hands that can comfortably use the Duke, as a point of reference, but Dualshocks (and more so, Dualsense these days) don't feel small at all. Ergonomically, it more depends on the type of movement I'm doing. "Stick up" movement is more comfortable on the Xbox layout, and by proxy Switch Pro, just due to the angle. "Stick right" is fine on either (shorter fingers would likely make this worse) but "Stick left" is more comfortable on the PS layout (or my 8Bitdo Pro 2) because I rotate my fingers differently.
So, I may prefer to play a racing game or top down shooter with a PS stick, where a third person action game may be more comfortable on Xbox sticks.
I think the real difference isn't quite 'hand size' for everyone but the biomechanics of stick modulation. Of course, not everyone can afford to buy both and figure out which one they like better, far cheaper to just claim the one you own is better. For instance, I love the 8Bitdo Pro 2 more than most of my controllers but find the SN30 mostly unusable as anything more than a SNES controller.
And, if you can use the Joycon comfortably for anything more than Mario party play, I'll give you short king status. I have the Satisfye grip basically permanently attached to my Switch and had to use the AA battery grips for two player Captain Toad.
But you really can't beat the industry standard amount of compatibility that the Xbox Controller offers - sometimes I don't want to spend the time setting up a Steam Controller or DualSense (I wish they just called it the DS5).
Funnily enough Steam Deck has a system-wide setting under Controller to swap the buttons to match the Switch, though it doesn't change the labels in the UI. As a Switch-first user, I toggled it on day one. Maybe that setting can be applied to an external controller too? Would be hilarious if it works given the name is "Use Nintendo Button Layout".
Yup! That's the one I'm talking about, and it def applies even to external controllers. It's actually a per controller -- including the Deck controls itself -- option.
I was actually wrong in saying I turned it Off for the 8BitDo. Because the 8BitDo is programmed to use the Nintendo layout, turning the Nintendo layout On on the Steam Deck options for this controller actually turns the controller into XBox/Playstation layout! It just reverses the the X/Y and A/B.
Ah, somehow missed the sentence about you turning that on. Good to know it works! Also good to know that I may need to disable it when I finally get a setup for docking it.
I mean, I have a fondness for the GameCube controller for smash, but it’s not well suited for general use. The c-stick nub instead of a full joystick is very weird for 3D games, it’s missing a second shoulder button, the shoulder buttons have an absurd amount of depth (to the point where smash players often mod them with weaker springs or shorter actuation points), the Z button is very mushy.
The extra throw is great. Honestly the thing I hate about analog controls these days is that they don’t have enough throw, modern joysticks almost have enough throw but they really should be better. And the shoulder buttons could be way better. The GameCube controllers were pretty much perfect in that regard.
oh, tell me about it. There's nothing worse than some offline PC multiplayer and telling someone to "press X". Which is the bottom face button on a playstation, the left face button on an xbox, and the top face button on the Switch. I do wish that was the one place where the competition could play nice and estaliish a single standard.
I haven't worked on it myself, but I suspect that may be due to dev kits. Xbox, for obvious reasons, has more integration into Windows itself and may simply allow you to use those glyphs with minimal fuss.
Meanwhile, getting access to anything Sony/Nintendo would require a dev kit and various agreements. So using their glyphs may require more steps. I could be wrong on this, so don't take it as gospel.
Impossible, and I don't even think it's because of patents, but they've all connected their identity to the symbols. PlayStation especially has marketed itself through the use of its symbols. If a competitor would use them it'd be free marketing.
lol Please don’t take this personally. I agree with everything else except this. After owning and using an 8bitdo Pro 2 for several months, I had to sell it away. I couldn’t play 3D games with it anymore. It hurt my left thumb so much. It’s not about the materials. I just can’t handle playing 3D games for extended periods of time while resting my left thumb on a joystick that’s below where my thumb naturally rests. It’s so incredibly uncomfortable to hold it in place there or make any precise input. Maybe my hand is too big, or too small, or deformed in some way, but I find the left joystick placement just absolutely atrocious. Sure, it wasn’t an official DualSense, but the layout is essentially the same. I don’t know how so many people find that comfortable to play with. I since bought (lol) a regular Xbox controller and absolutely love it. Haven’t needed anything else. The only controller I like more than either of these, is the Gamecube one. I like the button layout on the right better. Makes more sense and it’s more ergonomic for me, especially if I need to press multiple buttons at once or in quick succession.
Anyway, that’s just a detail. I understand and agree with everything else you said.
Edit: I love how this thread suddenly devolved into a discussion about controllers. lol
Goes to show how noteworthy Xbox is nowadays.
Edit: just so I don’t leave this comment as noise. I literally have nothing positive to say about Xbox. I owned both a 360 & a PS3 at the same time. I remember the Xbox as having uninteresting (to me) exclusives, being loud, taking ages to boot, having slightly worse graphics than the PS3, needing to be delicate with it to avoid the red ring of death, the uncomfortably large controller with the terrible D-Pad, and having to pay a subscription to simply play online - which at the time, was kinda unimaginable to me. Anything I wanted to play, I would’ve rather played on my PC or PS3. Which I frequently did.
Later on I resented Xbox Series S for existing, since multiplatform console games had to target it for a very long time - making the PS4 games I was playing look & perform worse than they had any reason to.