I've been playing Team Fortress 2 for seven years, but finally quit yesterday after seeing this article. The harassment in this game has been unbelievably pronounced in casual servers for the last...
I've been playing Team Fortress 2 for seven years, but finally quit yesterday after seeing this article. The harassment in this game has been unbelievably pronounced in casual servers for the last two years (at least), but I stuck around hoping--unjustifiably--that things got better when you got to know people in higher level competitive...
But no, these cunts have influence even in high level competitive, harassing others unimpeded. A few brave people stood up and let their stories be heard, and now the illusion is dead. From the big baddies to the little bullies, toxic players are dominating the game's culture and we're not doing anything to stop it. It's not fun being on the receiving end all the time, or knowing that it just gets worse further up the line, so I'm selling my aussies and moving on.
If any of you have played TF2, it'd be cool to know what your thoughts are on this.
Same thing with CSGO. Steam is a money printer, Valve just doesn’t care about their games anymore. They have terrible communication with the community and leave big problems unchecked, without...
Same thing with CSGO. Steam is a money printer, Valve just doesn’t care about their games anymore. They have terrible communication with the community and leave big problems unchecked, without even telling us what their plans are. But they always add in more skins 🙃
The game? Great. The community (specifically voice chat in casual games)? Absolutely terrible. I really like playing casual because I don't have to be "on" I can just play. But someone always...
The game? Great.
The community (specifically voice chat in casual games)? Absolutely terrible.
I really like playing casual because I don't have to be "on" I can just play. But someone always accuses me of hacking and I get kicked literally for being too good at the game, or everyone is just grossly toxic. It's very rare that I find a peaceful casual game that I can play in. I wish they would introduce something inbetween competitive and casual or actually take my abusive voice chat reports seriously....
Also admins in casual would be nice because there are plenty of ACTUAL cheaters who aren't being banned by vacnet still
All good points - and that reminds me of another thing the community has been asking for forever - unranked 5v5 matchmaking, along with 128 tick severs.
All good points - and that reminds me of another thing the community has been asking for forever - unranked 5v5 matchmaking, along with 128 tick severs.
Ya, I mostly play retake servers now because they are much less toxic and I actually improve my game by playing them. But I think unranked 5v5 makes sense
Ya, I mostly play retake servers now because they are much less toxic and I actually improve my game by playing them. But I think unranked 5v5 makes sense
I also play on them quite a bit, they're fun a great way to practice. I also recommend execute servers: basically the opposite of retakes (T's try to take a site held by CT's).
I also play on them quite a bit, they're fun a great way to practice. I also recommend execute servers: basically the opposite of retakes (T's try to take a site held by CT's).
That's very true, although it feels like the CS:GO dev team works in a bubble: different people working on different things without worrying about the rest of the game. The biggest problems with...
That's very true, although it feels like the CS:GO dev team works in a bubble: different people working on different things without worrying about the rest of the game.
The biggest problems with the game right now are toxicity; which even with prime matchmaking and trust factor, is a big problem, since there isn't really any penalty for it right now, and Valve's communication with the community. This video, while from 2016 and a bit on the humorous side, is actually pretty good.
While Panorama is beautiful, and a much needed update, it's nowhere ready to be out of beta. There are still a lot of bugs and frequent crashes - it's even been speculated that bugs with it have had an impact on some pro matches (I'll add a link here if I find the Reddit post). It's good that they let us test it beforehand, but there were (and probably are) still bugs being reported left and right. They probably could've given it some time.
The new gun is pretty cool (and nostalgic), but it seems pretty unnecessary at this point. I get them trying to revive the game (player and viewer count has dropped quite a bit), but I feel like they should fix the other issues first. It feels like they're just pushing a new gun, along with the constant new cases, just to keep the economy (profit) going, instead of focusing on gameplay, which is what really matters to the players. Also, after the R8, they said they would push most changes to beta before the main game, but they didn't do this with the MP5SD. To be fair, they made it so you can only use it in casual and deathmatch for now, and the weapon is pretty safe (pretty much an MP7), but it seems weird that they didn't try it out in beta first, which is something they promised.
Also, them killing gambling was great (underage gambling was a serious problem), but it has had a huge impact on pro matches (no more betting on matches), but there must've been a more elegant solution that would make it safer, while not completely destroying it.
Very true, and to me this is pretty disappointing. It seems like they're (lack of) structure worked great for single-player games like Half Life and Portal. Those are some of the best and most...
Very true, and to me this is pretty disappointing.
It seems like they're (lack of) structure worked great for single-player games like Half Life and Portal. Those are some of the best and most innovative games ever made, and you can tell how much effort and creativity went into the from Valve and it's employees.
I guess the model doesn't work so great for a multiplayer game with such a large community like CS:GO, which has so many different things going on. I feel like the first step in the right direction would be to appoint a community manager/community team (some people have suggested WarOwl, since he's already an important public figure for CS:GO, who's helped make the game a lot better, and whose Youtube channel isn't doing too great), as opposed to a dev going on Reddit every few months and dropping random info.
See also: Valve's almost complete and utter lack of customer support.
Honestly, I don't even comprehend how their customer support can be so bad. With how much money Steam makes, they could easily invest into better customer support... but I guess people forget that Valve isn't that nice little company anymore, they're just another corporation aiming to maximize profits.
This is why there are incentives/subsidies to make something like this more "fun" to work on. It's a hard problem, but it's a hard social and technical problem; too much work, much easier to...
you end up with things like the toxic community being last on the list to handle because who the fuck in their right mind would want to be handling it?
This is why there are incentives/subsidies to make something like this more "fun" to work on.
It's a hard problem, but it's a hard social and technical problem; too much work, much easier to collect a paycheck solving things like "nerf this weapon cause it's too OP".
I've played TF2, but quite a while back, leaving the game maybe a few months after MvM launched. I never really paid attention to the chat or voice communications, but maybe during my time the...
I've played TF2, but quite a while back, leaving the game maybe a few months after MvM launched. I never really paid attention to the chat or voice communications, but maybe during my time the problem wasn't as pronounced.
Personally, I see the problem as pronounced in Discord Servers. What does "fix" mean, here? Extra moderation would take care of my 12 old cousin uttering new and "forbidden" words. An entire...
Personally, I see the problem as pronounced in Discord Servers. What does "fix" mean, here?
Extra moderation would take care of my 12 old cousin uttering new and "forbidden" words. An entire subset of the population is taking refuge in gaming community shadows.
Shining a light into the shadows could go a long way, in my opinion.
With fixing the problem I mean getting rid of the toxicity. By shining a light in the shadows, what do you mean? Removing the anonymity? I've never dealt with such toxicity that I needed to call...
With fixing the problem I mean getting rid of the toxicity.
By shining a light in the shadows, what do you mean? Removing the anonymity?
I've never dealt with such toxicity that I needed to call someone out for it, and I played Dota. In general, you can't really change people over the internet so I just opt to mute them instead.
I have been playing since before MvM and I always play on a couple of community servers, the level of play is WAY WAY above compared to the auto match making that steam provides in the game. I...
I have been playing since before MvM and I always play on a couple of community servers, the level of play is WAY WAY above compared to the auto match making that steam provides in the game. I only see a small number of randoms that make their way to the server. The toxicity people talk about I don't see. (I am not plugged into the competitive side of the game tho).
I got this when I started play battlefield 1 about a year ago. In the bf4 servers you'd still get that one edgy teen pretty often that would say dumb racist shit for a while and then leave, but...
I got this when I started play battlefield 1 about a year ago. In the bf4 servers you'd still get that one edgy teen pretty often that would say dumb racist shit for a while and then leave, but when I started playing the new game I feel like 95% of the times there's like 10 people preaching about how Trump will gas the n*****s and how all liberals are cucks, and this goes on the ENTIRE game. Like wat, I just want to enjoy the game, how did it get so edgy
I played a lot for maybe 3 years. After a 2 years haitus I started to play casually for the last 2 months or so. I muted the players a long time ago so I was not really aware of the problem. I’m...
I played a lot for maybe 3 years. After a 2 years haitus I started to play casually for the last 2 months or so. I muted the players a long time ago so I was not really aware of the problem. I’m kinda old and it never interested me to hear kids play the bad boys anyway. As always the anonymity of the internet tends to bring the worst of immature people.
The last time I played TF2 was maybe...5 years ago? I didn't see too much toxicity at that time, I was more likely to run into that on a Counter Strike server. It's astounding though that whenever...
The last time I played TF2 was maybe...5 years ago? I didn't see too much toxicity at that time, I was more likely to run into that on a Counter Strike server. It's astounding though that whenever I did encounter some toxicity (from yelling and swearing to more serious insults), there wasn't much anyone could do. The game provided a vote to kick and mute and that was pretty much it; that's great for one game but it doesn't stop the toxic players from harassing others in other games. Systemic problems need more generalized tools to be dealt with and a better system design.
The vast majority of competitive games have a very toxic community. I think it's more a symptom of a lackluster environment crafted to allow for robust reporting and a semi-automated way of...
The vast majority of competitive games have a very toxic community. I think it's more a symptom of a lackluster environment crafted to allow for robust reporting and a semi-automated way of dealing with harassers.
Honestly something like tildes where recognized contributors can gain more say in moderation would be a good start. Combine this with automation when someone receives too many reports and I think you can have a community that can easily self-police.
The problem is that this is difficult to design and implement and frankly it's scary because there's potential for abuse and if you fuck up, there will likely be people outraged (especially if they spent good money on a game and can no longer play in the competitive scene, even if just for a short period of time).
Honestly, I don't think it's something that will ever change. This isn't a new thing, its as old as gaming is, its as old as competition itself is. We have never had a competitive game where the...
The vast majority of competitive games have a very toxic community
Honestly, I don't think it's something that will ever change. This isn't a new thing, its as old as gaming is, its as old as competition itself is.
We have never had a competitive game where the community wasn't in some way toxic, it just goes along with competitive nature of those games.
I think we can limit it, have boundaries and make sure that things won't get out of hand. But having some toxicity in competitive gaming isn't going anywhere.
I played rather a lot of FPS online back during the Quake 3 era (when you had to use Gamespy to find servers). Early on, they weren't very toxic, but as that sort of thing became more popular, the...
I played rather a lot of FPS online back during the Quake 3 era (when you had to use Gamespy to find servers). Early on, they weren't very toxic, but as that sort of thing became more popular, the toxicity crept in. I didn't mind so much since I could just put a railgun slug through whoever was bothering me enough times they'd ragequit.
At some point, though, it seemed like it became utterly toxic everywhere. You couldn't join a server without being bombarded with verbal diarrhea. The last thing I need in my ear is a pack of twelve year olds who can't even speak a coherent thought yammering lame crap while I'm trying to get my kills on. They sucked at FPS games, too... was almost boring mopping up entire enemy teams.
By the time xbox came along, that was the new 'normal' in every game. I got bored with it and moved to MMOs. Never had problems there. Haven't been back since, haven't even touched Overwatch or any modern competitive FPS games.
If I had to guess why that happened, I think it's probably the price to access. Back then, a decent gaming rig was a $2000+ investment (every other year). Not too many teenagers who can afford that sort of thing. Now, a gaming rig is $500 and lasts for several years with maybe another $500 in upgrades over the life of the system. Consoles are cheaper than that. The crowd of howler monkeys came to gaming, just like it came to reddit and just about everywhere else.
I never thought about it that way. I also got my start in the Quake era (I also played a lot of CS back then). The difference for me is that I bought an Xbox on release and lived through the...
I never thought about it that way.
I also got my start in the Quake era (I also played a lot of CS back then). The difference for me is that I bought an Xbox on release and lived through the toxicity being normal in franchises like Halo and CoD. I think overtime I have just gotten used to it. There has not been a competitive game since those early games in 1999ish that has not had a toxic userbase.
I could definitely see the cheaper cost of gaming opening it up to a wider and more immature audience.
Basically, lack of parenting and lack of common sense?
The last thing I need in my ear is a pack of twelve year olds who can't even speak a coherent thought yammering lame crap while I'm trying to get my kills on
Basically, lack of parenting and lack of common sense?
It's handled nicely when there's actual money at stake because then they can hire people to police behavior. The key is outsourcing this policing to the community itself.
It's handled nicely when there's actual money at stake because then they can hire people to police behavior. The key is outsourcing this policing to the community itself.
The problems with gaming culture that others tend to bring up are totally valid and worth exploring, but this right here is imo the biggest and most obvious source of the problem and many other...
The problems with gaming culture that others tend to bring up are totally valid and worth exploring, but this right here is imo the biggest and most obvious source of the problem and many other problems in gaming.
My problems with multiplayer gaming right now echo many of my problems with Reddit (except worse since there aren't even subcommunities). Everyone is faceless and it feels like as long as you aren't doing something you'll get banned from the entire game for, it's fair game. There's no room for different levels of toxicity depending on the server you go on, there's no pressure to not be judged by your peers, hell there's no differences at all. Not only does this degrade the experience for those of us who don't want slurs thrown at us all day, it's fucking boring and keeps us limited to the developers' game modes, rulesets, community standards, and everything else.
People in here saying the problem won't go away, you're not completely wrong. At least, I don't know how to kill it off everywhere. But I do know that the standard way of play up until the last few years at least gave players a way out. I could go on a friendly server and hang out and if an asshole joined, there were a range of options from votekicking to an admin banning. We've gone backwards.
I can't express enough how much this has ruined modern multiplayer gaming for me despite there being plenty of interesting games on the level of mechanics. Not only are games unavoidably toxic, they're also anti-social and I would argue anti-competitive (suddenly you're owed winning 1/2 of your games by the developers???).
Exactly, somehow the moderation tools available have been removed or downgraded so as to be useless. Let people run dedicated servers and you'll see friendlier servers and better competitive...
if an asshole joined, there were a range of options from votekicking to an admin banning. We've gone backwards.
Exactly, somehow the moderation tools available have been removed or downgraded so as to be useless.
Let people run dedicated servers and you'll see friendlier servers and better competitive matches. It's a bad idea to let the video game creators have a monopoly on the gaming community
That's what I'm trying to rebuild with TRS80 gaming; we have a website, we have a discord channel and try to group up to play various video games. It's way better to play with the same peeps who...
In the 'good old days', you found a server that had good ping and a regular group of players and you actually got to know one another. Players would drop in and out, but due to the familiarity between members of the community there was a lot of self-policing going on.
That's what I'm trying to rebuild with TRS80 gaming; we have a website, we have a discord channel and try to group up to play various video games. It's way better to play with the same peeps who aren't assholes.
I'm just there to have a good time and play a fun game, possibly with friends, possibly with strangers online. If I get called every name in the book by the people I'm playing with for whatever...
I'm just there to have a good time and play a fun game, possibly with friends, possibly with strangers online. If I get called every name in the book by the people I'm playing with for whatever reason, I am unlikely to return. That sounds like a toxic environment to me, and matches the most common connotative definition of the word that I am aware of.
What else did you have in mind that would count as toxicity from a gaming community? What is the line between 'shit talking' and 'toxicity' for you? I'd like to know where you're coming from.
'Shit talking', as toxic as you might think it is, is a normal part of a competitive environment. Whether it's in gaming, sports or some other outlet it is just something that is part of a...
'Shit talking', as toxic as you might think it is, is a normal part of a competitive environment. Whether it's in gaming, sports or some other outlet it is just something that is part of a competitive human environment.
If that's not for you, than competitive gaming is not for you, but regardless you are not going to be able to change it and in many ways, you shouldn't. Having restrictions, boundaries and making sure things don't get too out of hand is important, but anyone that thinks toxicity will go away in competitive gaming entirely is very naive. There is not a competitive environment in history that did not involve some sort of toxicity, it just goes along with the environment.
No, there really isn't a huge difference when you get down to it. Hearing things like *'I will kill your mom f@&&t' or 'go make me a sandwich B!#ch' over an earpiece is literally as old as online...
No, there really isn't a huge difference when you get down to it.
Hearing things like *'I will kill your mom f@&&t' or 'go make me a sandwich B!#ch' over an earpiece is literally as old as online gaming. I am not saying everything being said it appropriate, this sort of behavior should be limited, people that push it too far should be punished, but it is part of gaming and competitive nature and culture. No one will ever be able to change that, ever.
part of an extremely‐narrow demographic.
So... Gamers? or competitive people? I am genuinely curious what you think that demographic is, because the demographics susceptible to this sort of behavior are massive.
Most of the people saying rude and mean stuff on online game don't actually mean it, it's just their way of venting or blowing off extra adrenaline. Heck, most of the time when something really crazy is said it's just some 13 year old that just got his first mic and its the only way he knows how to talk smack. Most older gamers laugh their arses off at it or have just learned to ignore it. Mute is always an option.
I am not saying allowing everything to be said, but forcefully overly restricting it just makes things worse. Riot games is a great example of this, they have tried to restrict all toxicity out of League of Legends and their extreme tactics have only hurt their community and made the spread of toxicity worse.
Learning to live with it, allowing it and setting limits about what is 'too far' is the only way to deal with it, because it is never going anywhere.
I rather enjoy the smack talk. That's not the toxicity people including me are referring to. Smack talk is to be expected, and good, witty smack talk is one of the finer aspects of an online...
I rather enjoy the smack talk. That's not the toxicity people including me are referring to. Smack talk is to be expected, and good, witty smack talk is one of the finer aspects of an online gaming experience or sports in general.
There's a difference between that and hearing the ceaseless chanting of 'kike!' 'nigger!' etc all day long from the majority of the playerbase. Honestly I'd mind it less if there was an ounce of wit in any of their insults. Ask yourself how a crowd at a sports stadium would react if one team was chanting those words at the top of their lungs so that everyone could hear them... or how the league would react.
I agree entirely. I never said that there shouldn't be limits on it. Obviously racial slurs are taking it to a different level. There needs to be a societal line in the sand as to what is...
witty smack talk is one of the finer aspects of an online gaming experience or sports in general.
I agree entirely. I never said that there shouldn't be limits on it. Obviously racial slurs are taking it to a different level. There needs to be a societal line in the sand as to what is acceptable smack talk and what is frowned upon. Unfortunately I think trying to entirely eradicate it actually makes it harder for people to see what is acceptable and what is pushing it.
Sure. The most common demographic for that kind of behaviour are males 12 to 25, with low academic levels. And yes, males. Females, the lierature tells us, would prefer (not always, but most...
So... Gamers? or competitive people? I am genuinely curious what you think that demographic is, because the demographics susceptible to this sort of behavior are massive.
Sure. The most common demographic for that kind of behaviour are males 12 to 25, with low academic levels.
And yes, males. Females, the lierature tells us, would prefer (not always, but most females would) indirect aggresion, rather than direct aggresion. So... a woman would take revenge by socially punishing someone, while a man would take revenge by directly insulting you. Agression is gendered, and this behavious comes out from agression plus desindividualization, plus competitive enviroment, if you ask me.
I would love to see some sources for that age range. In my experience competition based aggression, while predominantly male, is not restricted by age or even demographic. And if you were talking...
I would love to see some sources for that age range. In my experience competition based aggression, while predominantly male, is not restricted by age or even demographic.
And if you were talking about gamers, that would be entirely wrong. Gamers are a wide variety of ages and are both uneducated and highly educated. One of my best friends is currently working on her doctorate and is an avid starcraft and CS player. In fact, most people I know with higher education are avid gamers.
Well, that age range was partialy based on Giammanco's studies (2011), linking the greater surge of testosterone during early puberty with increased aggresiveness, and Papalia's manual on human...
Well, that age range was partialy based on Giammanco's studies (2011), linking the greater surge of testosterone during early puberty with increased aggresiveness, and Papalia's manual on human development.
Of course gamers are of any age, and any education level. I , myself am 40, female, working on a doctorate in psychology... and loving the fuck out of my PC games since I was 8.
The fact, tho, is that testosterone leads to more aggresive behaviour. This is something observed in every vertebrate. A "sudden" increase of testosterone levels, such as the one ocurring during puberty, can lead to uncontrolled rage, until the individual learns to adapt to those levels.
It's normal for police to shoot people, almost every day of the year. It was normal for most farmers in the US South to own slaves in the 1800s. Just because something is normal doesn't mean it's...
'Shit talking', as toxic as you might think it is, is a normal part of a competitive environment. Whether it's in gaming, sports or some other outlet it is just something that is part of a competitive human environment.
It's normal for police to shoot people, almost every day of the year. It was normal for most farmers in the US South to own slaves in the 1800s. Just because something is normal doesn't mean it's okay, or that we shouldn't work to change it.
Having restrictions, boundaries and making sure things don't get too out of hand is important, but anyone that thinks toxicity will go away in competitive gaming entirely is very naive.
Well, I guess I am naive then, because I don't see why shit talking has to be a part of competition at all. I've been involved in competitions (Dance Dance Revolution Tournaments come to mind) where everyone was polite and supportive of each other, and genuinely happen when people were winning and setting records. Nobody was calling each other a faggot if they lost or shit talking. The closest thing to 'shit talking' that happened was that people got upset when a sensor was acting up and it effected their playing. They didn't get upset at the other players though, they were mad at the situation.
I think that claiming that 'shit talking' is an inseparable part of competition is not correct. There's no reason that people can't try to be positive and encouraging while competing. I try to compliment people on both teams if they play well in Overwatch. Shit talking doesn't have to be an integral part of 'gaming culture' even if there's a long way to go to fix it.
I would wager to say that comparing societal norms to behavior that is extremely prevalent in most humans in a competitive setting is rather inaccurate. Every human gets mad when they lose or are...
I would wager to say that comparing societal norms to behavior that is extremely prevalent in most humans in a competitive setting is rather inaccurate. Every human gets mad when they lose or are losing, and if they don't, they've put a lot of work into not being mad at failure. Competitions for games like DDR are probably very amicable because rhythm games tend to be more lighthearted, and most of them are against CPU opponents. When you're against a CPU, everyone else is too.
In competitive FPSs, it's just other people you're squaring off against, and so instead of insulting a CPU, they insult the enemy team. For most people, there's a sort of disconnect when it comes to the identity of the opposing team, or just the identity of people online in general. You'll likely never see them again, so people are okay with launching insults to vent. The issue, I believe, lies in the very nature of the games themselves. The weight put on it, the kind of people who flock to them, and the atmosphere. It's not something you can break by just telling them "Be nice". Bans and kicks make these types even angrier. Much like sports fans physically beating fans of "enemy" teams, it's a trait nestled deep in the human brain that you just can't root out. The genre has to die out for the people to go with. Nothing short of complete iron fist moderation will solve it, and that would likely just make people drop it altogether. That attitude has been in games since fuckin' Quake (And oh boy quake fans are the worst). The "toxicity" isn't new, we just shine a really bright light on it.
Are these examples of shit talking? According to Fuzzymellow, one particular group of players even followed them into a TF2 match in order to bully them and mock their appearance. This same group...
Are these examples of shit talking?
According to Fuzzymellow, one particular group of players even followed them into a TF2 match in order to bully them and mock their appearance. This same group apparently stalked vulnerable people in the workshop community, even finding their Facebook profiles, and there have been attempts to steal identities.
Professional players made suggestions she'd slept her way to getting a production position. Some made advances to Delacroix and claimed she could "play around with them" because she wasn't married, despite her being in a relationship at the time. Behind her back, players planned to try to sleep with her at LANs, and then refused to participate in events when she rejected their advances. The very worst of the behaviour included sexual abuse.
I guess this next one is shit talking, but is it cool to shit talk women for being women?
Another lifelong TF2 player also posted a list of verbal and in-chat abuse she'd received while playing the game just for being a woman.
Using extreme comparisons like that immediately discredits anything you are saying. I can't believe you just made a correlation from common competitive aggression found in human nature to slavery...
It's normal for police to shoot people, almost every day of the year. It was normal for most farmers in the US South to own slaves in the 1800s. Just because something is normal doesn't mean it's okay, or that we shouldn't work to change it.
Using extreme comparisons like that immediately discredits anything you are saying. I can't believe you just made a correlation from common competitive aggression found in human nature to slavery and murder. Like, wow.
Aggression is a part of competition, in all areas of competition.
I am not sure DDR counts as a competitive environment unless its esports. Go to a football game, or a hockey game, or a esports match or the olympics. Any competitive sport or activity on a professional or semi professional level (or anything competitive people are taking seriously). Its part of human nature and yes, it is pretty naive to think one can actually change basic human instinct.
And, more importantly. There is nothing wrong with aggression in competition. It provides a safe outlet for people to work out their aggression and vent. When you take away outlets like this, you get a things like... a generation of children that think school shootings are an acceptable thing. We shouldn't be trying to fix something like this, we need outlets to get out our aggression safely.
FYI, more psychology research comes out every year that venting/catharsis is actually negative and makes aggression worse. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf Abstract
It provides a safe outlet for people to work out their aggression and vent. When you take away outlets like this, you get a things like... a generation of children that think school shootings are an acceptable thing. We shouldn't be trying to fix something like this, we need outlets to get out our aggression safely.
FYI, more psychology research comes out every year that venting/catharsis is actually negative and makes aggression worse.
Does distraction or rumination work better to diffuse anger? Catharsis theory predicts that rumination works best, but empirical evidence is lacking. In this study, angered participants hit a punching bag and thought about the person who had angered them (rumination group) or thought about becoming physically fit (distraction group). After hitting the punching bag, they reported how angry they felt. Next, they were given the chance to administer loud blasts of noise to the person who had angered them. There also was a no punching bag control group. People in the rumination group felt angrier than did people in the distraction or control groups. People in the rumination group were also most aggressive, followed respectively by people in the distraction and control groups. Rumination increased rather than decreased anger and aggression. Doing nothing at all was more effective than venting anger. These results directly contradict catharsis theory.
I am aware, I wanted to be a LPC for a long time before I became an EMT/WFR and I try to stay current in the field. There has always been a divide on whether Catharsis theory is accurate or not....
I am aware, I wanted to be a LPC for a long time before I became an EMT/WFR and I try to stay current in the field.
There has been much debate about the use of catharsis in the reduction of anger. Some scholars believe that "blowing off steam" may reduce physiological stress in the short term, but this reduction may act as a reward mechanism, reinforcing the behavior and promoting future outbursts.[22][23][24][25] However, other studies have suggested that using violent media may decrease hostility under periods of stress.[26] Legal scholars have linked "catharsis" to "closure"[27] (an individual's desire for a firm answer to a question and an aversion toward ambiguity) and "satisfaction" which can be applied to affective strategies as diverse as retribution, on one hand, and forgiveness on the other.[28] There's no "one size fits all" definition of "catharsis", therefore this does not allow a clear definition of its use in therapeutic terms.[29]
There has always been a divide on whether Catharsis theory is accurate or not. Just as much information has come out in recent years supporting it as have come out against it. It's a commonly debated topic in the phyc world. I tend to lean towards it being accurate, especially considering the basis for the theory is as old as the word itself.
Also, while that link is a pretty great read, that is not exactly new it was published in 2001.
Right, and I have a masters in I-O Psychology. I have taken 20+ courses in Psychology, undergrad and graduate level. Care to link any significant research that has been thoroughly cited and...
I am aware, I wanted to be a LPC for a long time before I became an EMT/WFR and I try to stay current in the field and am fairly well-versed in recent research pertaining to not only I-O but social psychology as well.
Right, and I have a masters in I-O Psychology. I have taken 20+ courses in Psychology, undergrad and graduate level.
Just as much information has come out in recent years supporting it as have come out against it. It's a commonly debated topic in the phyc world.
Care to link any significant research that has been thoroughly cited and evaluated from a respectable journal? The research paper does not involve disproving catharsis, just that cathartic aggression leads to more aggression.
I tend to lean towards it being accurate, especially considering the basis for the theory is as old as the word itself.
Also, while that link is a pretty great read, that is not exactly new it was published in 2001.
These are contradictory statements.
This article has been cited 842 times in other academic articles. The year published doesn't matter in influential research and isn't a legitimate criticism of its reliability or validity, especially when you haven't presented research that says otherwise.
I don't know if there's an easy solution for this. Bots can't do the job well enough, either banning too much (like overzealous word censors) or banning too little, and they don't know context....
I don't know if there's an easy solution for this. Bots can't do the job well enough, either banning too much (like overzealous word censors) or banning too little, and they don't know context. They also can't do anything about what is said and done through voice chat. The other solution that seems possible is community moderators, but I don't imagine there would be too many people who would want to spend their time reviewing whether someone is toxic, and it would be too expensive to employ people to do it.
Side note: community servers basically solve this problem and I pretty much play exclusively on them nowadays. they have custom maps, usually a dedicated admin team that plays as they mod so they get context, and the general skill of the players is higher.
Side side note: this might be inflammatory or intentionally ignorant, but unless you're some big community figure, when has muting/blocking people not been enough? I understand it sucks to be bullied/harassed but it's not like you're completely defenseless. Of course it's awful that it happens and shouldn't happen it all, but there are some tools to help
Say something they don't like, play poorly (or too well), or just have an avatar that makes you stand out in some way. Maybe wait for that guy you dominated to get autobalanced. Votekicked. Not...
Say something they don't like, play poorly (or too well), or just have an avatar that makes you stand out in some way. Maybe wait for that guy you dominated to get autobalanced. Votekicked. Not fun feeling it, not fun seeing it happen.
I've been playing Team Fortress 2 for seven years, but finally quit yesterday after seeing this article. The harassment in this game has been unbelievably pronounced in casual servers for the last two years (at least), but I stuck around hoping--unjustifiably--that things got better when you got to know people in higher level competitive...
But no, these cunts have influence even in high level competitive, harassing others unimpeded. A few brave people stood up and let their stories be heard, and now the illusion is dead. From the big baddies to the little bullies, toxic players are dominating the game's culture and we're not doing anything to stop it. It's not fun being on the receiving end all the time, or knowing that it just gets worse further up the line, so I'm selling my aussies and moving on.
If any of you have played TF2, it'd be cool to know what your thoughts are on this.
Same thing with CSGO. Steam is a money printer, Valve just doesn’t care about their games anymore. They have terrible communication with the community and leave big problems unchecked, without even telling us what their plans are. But they always add in more skins 🙃
Bruh we just got panorama and a new gun. CSGO is on the up and up
The game? Great.
The community (specifically voice chat in casual games)? Absolutely terrible.
I really like playing casual because I don't have to be "on" I can just play. But someone always accuses me of hacking and I get kicked literally for being too good at the game, or everyone is just grossly toxic. It's very rare that I find a peaceful casual game that I can play in. I wish they would introduce something inbetween competitive and casual or actually take my abusive voice chat reports seriously....
Also admins in casual would be nice because there are plenty of ACTUAL cheaters who aren't being banned by vacnet still
All good points - and that reminds me of another thing the community has been asking for forever - unranked 5v5 matchmaking, along with 128 tick severs.
Ya, I mostly play retake servers now because they are much less toxic and I actually improve my game by playing them. But I think unranked 5v5 makes sense
I also play on them quite a bit, they're fun a great way to practice. I also recommend execute servers: basically the opposite of retakes (T's try to take a site held by CT's).
Wow I've never heard of execute servers actually, that's really interesting and it sounds cool!
Play comp. There's trust factor now.
That's very true, although it feels like the CS:GO dev team works in a bubble: different people working on different things without worrying about the rest of the game.
The biggest problems with the game right now are toxicity; which even with prime matchmaking and trust factor, is a big problem, since there isn't really any penalty for it right now, and Valve's communication with the community. This video, while from 2016 and a bit on the humorous side, is actually pretty good.
While Panorama is beautiful, and a much needed update, it's nowhere ready to be out of beta. There are still a lot of bugs and frequent crashes - it's even been speculated that bugs with it have had an impact on some pro matches (I'll add a link here if I find the Reddit post). It's good that they let us test it beforehand, but there were (and probably are) still bugs being reported left and right. They probably could've given it some time.
The new gun is pretty cool (and nostalgic), but it seems pretty unnecessary at this point. I get them trying to revive the game (player and viewer count has dropped quite a bit), but I feel like they should fix the other issues first. It feels like they're just pushing a new gun, along with the constant new cases, just to keep the economy (profit) going, instead of focusing on gameplay, which is what really matters to the players. Also, after the R8, they said they would push most changes to beta before the main game, but they didn't do this with the MP5SD. To be fair, they made it so you can only use it in casual and deathmatch for now, and the weapon is pretty safe (pretty much an MP7), but it seems weird that they didn't try it out in beta first, which is something they promised.
Also, them killing gambling was great (underage gambling was a serious problem), but it has had a huge impact on pro matches (no more betting on matches), but there must've been a more elegant solution that would make it safer, while not completely destroying it.
Very true, and to me this is pretty disappointing.
It seems like they're (lack of) structure worked great for single-player games like Half Life and Portal. Those are some of the best and most innovative games ever made, and you can tell how much effort and creativity went into the from Valve and it's employees.
I guess the model doesn't work so great for a multiplayer game with such a large community like CS:GO, which has so many different things going on. I feel like the first step in the right direction would be to appoint a community manager/community team (some people have suggested WarOwl, since he's already an important public figure for CS:GO, who's helped make the game a lot better, and whose Youtube channel isn't doing too great), as opposed to a dev going on Reddit every few months and dropping random info.
Honestly, I don't even comprehend how their customer support can be so bad. With how much money Steam makes, they could easily invest into better customer support... but I guess people forget that Valve isn't that nice little company anymore, they're just another corporation aiming to maximize profits.
This is why there are incentives/subsidies to make something like this more "fun" to work on.
It's a hard problem, but it's a hard social and technical problem; too much work, much easier to collect a paycheck solving things like "nerf this weapon cause it's too OP".
I've played TF2, but quite a while back, leaving the game maybe a few months after MvM launched. I never really paid attention to the chat or voice communications, but maybe during my time the problem wasn't as pronounced.
How would you propose to fix the issue?
Personally, I see the problem as pronounced in Discord Servers. What does "fix" mean, here?
Extra moderation would take care of my 12 old cousin uttering new and "forbidden" words. An entire subset of the population is taking refuge in gaming community shadows.
Shining a light into the shadows could go a long way, in my opinion.
With fixing the problem I mean getting rid of the toxicity.
By shining a light in the shadows, what do you mean? Removing the anonymity?
I've never dealt with such toxicity that I needed to call someone out for it, and I played Dota. In general, you can't really change people over the internet so I just opt to mute them instead.
I have been playing since before MvM and I always play on a couple of community servers, the level of play is WAY WAY above compared to the auto match making that steam provides in the game. I only see a small number of randoms that make their way to the server. The toxicity people talk about I don't see. (I am not plugged into the competitive side of the game tho).
I got this when I started play battlefield 1 about a year ago. In the bf4 servers you'd still get that one edgy teen pretty often that would say dumb racist shit for a while and then leave, but when I started playing the new game I feel like 95% of the times there's like 10 people preaching about how Trump will gas the n*****s and how all liberals are cucks, and this goes on the ENTIRE game. Like wat, I just want to enjoy the game, how did it get so edgy
I played a lot for maybe 3 years. After a 2 years haitus I started to play casually for the last 2 months or so. I muted the players a long time ago so I was not really aware of the problem. I’m kinda old and it never interested me to hear kids play the bad boys anyway. As always the anonymity of the internet tends to bring the worst of immature people.
The last time I played TF2 was maybe...5 years ago? I didn't see too much toxicity at that time, I was more likely to run into that on a Counter Strike server. It's astounding though that whenever I did encounter some toxicity (from yelling and swearing to more serious insults), there wasn't much anyone could do. The game provided a vote to kick and mute and that was pretty much it; that's great for one game but it doesn't stop the toxic players from harassing others in other games. Systemic problems need more generalized tools to be dealt with and a better system design.
The vast majority of competitive games have a very toxic community. I think it's more a symptom of a lackluster environment crafted to allow for robust reporting and a semi-automated way of dealing with harassers.
Honestly something like tildes where recognized contributors can gain more say in moderation would be a good start. Combine this with automation when someone receives too many reports and I think you can have a community that can easily self-police.
The problem is that this is difficult to design and implement and frankly it's scary because there's potential for abuse and if you fuck up, there will likely be people outraged (especially if they spent good money on a game and can no longer play in the competitive scene, even if just for a short period of time).
Honestly, I don't think it's something that will ever change. This isn't a new thing, its as old as gaming is, its as old as competition itself is.
We have never had a competitive game where the community wasn't in some way toxic, it just goes along with competitive nature of those games.
I think we can limit it, have boundaries and make sure that things won't get out of hand. But having some toxicity in competitive gaming isn't going anywhere.
I played rather a lot of FPS online back during the Quake 3 era (when you had to use Gamespy to find servers). Early on, they weren't very toxic, but as that sort of thing became more popular, the toxicity crept in. I didn't mind so much since I could just put a railgun slug through whoever was bothering me enough times they'd ragequit.
At some point, though, it seemed like it became utterly toxic everywhere. You couldn't join a server without being bombarded with verbal diarrhea. The last thing I need in my ear is a pack of twelve year olds who can't even speak a coherent thought yammering lame crap while I'm trying to get my kills on. They sucked at FPS games, too... was almost boring mopping up entire enemy teams.
By the time xbox came along, that was the new 'normal' in every game. I got bored with it and moved to MMOs. Never had problems there. Haven't been back since, haven't even touched Overwatch or any modern competitive FPS games.
If I had to guess why that happened, I think it's probably the price to access. Back then, a decent gaming rig was a $2000+ investment (every other year). Not too many teenagers who can afford that sort of thing. Now, a gaming rig is $500 and lasts for several years with maybe another $500 in upgrades over the life of the system. Consoles are cheaper than that. The crowd of howler monkeys came to gaming, just like it came to reddit and just about everywhere else.
I never thought about it that way.
I also got my start in the Quake era (I also played a lot of CS back then). The difference for me is that I bought an Xbox on release and lived through the toxicity being normal in franchises like Halo and CoD. I think overtime I have just gotten used to it. There has not been a competitive game since those early games in 1999ish that has not had a toxic userbase.
I could definitely see the cheaper cost of gaming opening it up to a wider and more immature audience.
Basically, lack of parenting and lack of common sense?
It's handled nicely when there's actual money at stake because then they can hire people to police behavior. The key is outsourcing this policing to the community itself.
While not the perfect analogy (we're talking about policing the players, not the audience), I think it does make a good point about hive think.
I think in terms of video games the players are often both player and audience so it still applies.
The problems with gaming culture that others tend to bring up are totally valid and worth exploring, but this right here is imo the biggest and most obvious source of the problem and many other problems in gaming.
My problems with multiplayer gaming right now echo many of my problems with Reddit (except worse since there aren't even subcommunities). Everyone is faceless and it feels like as long as you aren't doing something you'll get banned from the entire game for, it's fair game. There's no room for different levels of toxicity depending on the server you go on, there's no pressure to not be judged by your peers, hell there's no differences at all. Not only does this degrade the experience for those of us who don't want slurs thrown at us all day, it's fucking boring and keeps us limited to the developers' game modes, rulesets, community standards, and everything else.
People in here saying the problem won't go away, you're not completely wrong. At least, I don't know how to kill it off everywhere. But I do know that the standard way of play up until the last few years at least gave players a way out. I could go on a friendly server and hang out and if an asshole joined, there were a range of options from votekicking to an admin banning. We've gone backwards.
I can't express enough how much this has ruined modern multiplayer gaming for me despite there being plenty of interesting games on the level of mechanics. Not only are games unavoidably toxic, they're also anti-social and I would argue anti-competitive (suddenly you're owed winning 1/2 of your games by the developers???).
Exactly, somehow the moderation tools available have been removed or downgraded so as to be useless.
Let people run dedicated servers and you'll see friendlier servers and better competitive matches. It's a bad idea to let the video game creators have a monopoly on the gaming community
That's what I'm trying to rebuild with TRS80 gaming; we have a website, we have a discord channel and try to group up to play various video games. It's way better to play with the same peeps who aren't assholes.
I hesitate to equate shit talking with the ever so nebulous term "toxicity."
I'm just there to have a good time and play a fun game, possibly with friends, possibly with strangers online. If I get called every name in the book by the people I'm playing with for whatever reason, I am unlikely to return. That sounds like a toxic environment to me, and matches the most common connotative definition of the word that I am aware of.
What else did you have in mind that would count as toxicity from a gaming community? What is the line between 'shit talking' and 'toxicity' for you? I'd like to know where you're coming from.
'Shit talking', as toxic as you might think it is, is a normal part of a competitive environment. Whether it's in gaming, sports or some other outlet it is just something that is part of a competitive human environment.
If that's not for you, than competitive gaming is not for you, but regardless you are not going to be able to change it and in many ways, you shouldn't. Having restrictions, boundaries and making sure things don't get too out of hand is important, but anyone that thinks toxicity will go away in competitive gaming entirely is very naive. There is not a competitive environment in history that did not involve some sort of toxicity, it just goes along with the environment.
No, there really isn't a huge difference when you get down to it.
Hearing things like *'I will kill your mom f@&&t' or 'go make me a sandwich B!#ch' over an earpiece is literally as old as online gaming. I am not saying everything being said it appropriate, this sort of behavior should be limited, people that push it too far should be punished, but it is part of gaming and competitive nature and culture. No one will ever be able to change that, ever.
So... Gamers? or competitive people? I am genuinely curious what you think that demographic is, because the demographics susceptible to this sort of behavior are massive.
Most of the people saying rude and mean stuff on online game don't actually mean it, it's just their way of venting or blowing off extra adrenaline. Heck, most of the time when something really crazy is said it's just some 13 year old that just got his first mic and its the only way he knows how to talk smack. Most older gamers laugh their arses off at it or have just learned to ignore it. Mute is always an option.
I am not saying allowing everything to be said, but forcefully overly restricting it just makes things worse. Riot games is a great example of this, they have tried to restrict all toxicity out of League of Legends and their extreme tactics have only hurt their community and made the spread of toxicity worse.
Learning to live with it, allowing it and setting limits about what is 'too far' is the only way to deal with it, because it is never going anywhere.
I rather enjoy the smack talk. That's not the toxicity people including me are referring to. Smack talk is to be expected, and good, witty smack talk is one of the finer aspects of an online gaming experience or sports in general.
There's a difference between that and hearing the ceaseless chanting of 'kike!' 'nigger!' etc all day long from the majority of the playerbase. Honestly I'd mind it less if there was an ounce of wit in any of their insults. Ask yourself how a crowd at a sports stadium would react if one team was chanting those words at the top of their lungs so that everyone could hear them... or how the league would react.
I agree entirely. I never said that there shouldn't be limits on it. Obviously racial slurs are taking it to a different level. There needs to be a societal line in the sand as to what is acceptable smack talk and what is frowned upon. Unfortunately I think trying to entirely eradicate it actually makes it harder for people to see what is acceptable and what is pushing it.
Sure. The most common demographic for that kind of behaviour are males 12 to 25, with low academic levels.
And yes, males. Females, the lierature tells us, would prefer (not always, but most females would) indirect aggresion, rather than direct aggresion. So... a woman would take revenge by socially punishing someone, while a man would take revenge by directly insulting you. Agression is gendered, and this behavious comes out from agression plus desindividualization, plus competitive enviroment, if you ask me.
I would love to see some sources for that age range. In my experience competition based aggression, while predominantly male, is not restricted by age or even demographic.
And if you were talking about gamers, that would be entirely wrong. Gamers are a wide variety of ages and are both uneducated and highly educated. One of my best friends is currently working on her doctorate and is an avid starcraft and CS player. In fact, most people I know with higher education are avid gamers.
Well, that age range was partialy based on Giammanco's studies (2011), linking the greater surge of testosterone during early puberty with increased aggresiveness, and Papalia's manual on human development.
Of course gamers are of any age, and any education level. I , myself am 40, female, working on a doctorate in psychology... and loving the fuck out of my PC games since I was 8.
The fact, tho, is that testosterone leads to more aggresive behaviour. This is something observed in every vertebrate. A "sudden" increase of testosterone levels, such as the one ocurring during puberty, can lead to uncontrolled rage, until the individual learns to adapt to those levels.
It's normal for police to shoot people, almost every day of the year. It was normal for most farmers in the US South to own slaves in the 1800s. Just because something is normal doesn't mean it's okay, or that we shouldn't work to change it.
Well, I guess I am naive then, because I don't see why shit talking has to be a part of competition at all. I've been involved in competitions (Dance Dance Revolution Tournaments come to mind) where everyone was polite and supportive of each other, and genuinely happen when people were winning and setting records. Nobody was calling each other a faggot if they lost or shit talking. The closest thing to 'shit talking' that happened was that people got upset when a sensor was acting up and it effected their playing. They didn't get upset at the other players though, they were mad at the situation.
I think that claiming that 'shit talking' is an inseparable part of competition is not correct. There's no reason that people can't try to be positive and encouraging while competing. I try to compliment people on both teams if they play well in Overwatch. Shit talking doesn't have to be an integral part of 'gaming culture' even if there's a long way to go to fix it.
I would wager to say that comparing societal norms to behavior that is extremely prevalent in most humans in a competitive setting is rather inaccurate. Every human gets mad when they lose or are losing, and if they don't, they've put a lot of work into not being mad at failure. Competitions for games like DDR are probably very amicable because rhythm games tend to be more lighthearted, and most of them are against CPU opponents. When you're against a CPU, everyone else is too.
In competitive FPSs, it's just other people you're squaring off against, and so instead of insulting a CPU, they insult the enemy team. For most people, there's a sort of disconnect when it comes to the identity of the opposing team, or just the identity of people online in general. You'll likely never see them again, so people are okay with launching insults to vent. The issue, I believe, lies in the very nature of the games themselves. The weight put on it, the kind of people who flock to them, and the atmosphere. It's not something you can break by just telling them "Be nice". Bans and kicks make these types even angrier. Much like sports fans physically beating fans of "enemy" teams, it's a trait nestled deep in the human brain that you just can't root out. The genre has to die out for the people to go with. Nothing short of complete iron fist moderation will solve it, and that would likely just make people drop it altogether. That attitude has been in games since fuckin' Quake (And oh boy quake fans are the worst). The "toxicity" isn't new, we just shine a really bright light on it.
Are these examples of shit talking?
According to Fuzzymellow, one particular group of players even followed them into a TF2 match in order to bully them and mock their appearance. This same group apparently stalked vulnerable people in the workshop community, even finding their Facebook profiles, and there have been attempts to steal identities.
Professional players made suggestions she'd slept her way to getting a production position. Some made advances to Delacroix and claimed she could "play around with them" because she wasn't married, despite her being in a relationship at the time. Behind her back, players planned to try to sleep with her at LANs, and then refused to participate in events when she rejected their advances. The very worst of the behaviour included sexual abuse.
I guess this next one is shit talking, but is it cool to shit talk women for being women?
Yep.
So, those are acceptable behaviours in the context of competition?
Yes.
That's just sad.
Using extreme comparisons like that immediately discredits anything you are saying. I can't believe you just made a correlation from common competitive aggression found in human nature to slavery and murder. Like, wow.
Aggression is a part of competition, in all areas of competition.
I am not sure DDR counts as a competitive environment unless its esports. Go to a football game, or a hockey game, or a esports match or the olympics. Any competitive sport or activity on a professional or semi professional level (or anything competitive people are taking seriously). Its part of human nature and yes, it is pretty naive to think one can actually change basic human instinct.
And, more importantly. There is nothing wrong with aggression in competition. It provides a safe outlet for people to work out their aggression and vent. When you take away outlets like this, you get a things like... a generation of children that think school shootings are an acceptable thing. We shouldn't be trying to fix something like this, we need outlets to get out our aggression safely.
FYI, more psychology research comes out every year that venting/catharsis is actually negative and makes aggression worse.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf
Abstract
I am aware, I wanted to be a LPC for a long time before I became an EMT/WFR and I try to stay current in the field.
There has always been a divide on whether Catharsis theory is accurate or not. Just as much information has come out in recent years supporting it as have come out against it. It's a commonly debated topic in the phyc world. I tend to lean towards it being accurate, especially considering the basis for the theory is as old as the word itself.
Also, while that link is a pretty great read, that is not exactly new it was published in 2001.
Right, and I have a masters in I-O Psychology. I have taken 20+ courses in Psychology, undergrad and graduate level.
Care to link any significant research that has been thoroughly cited and evaluated from a respectable journal? The research paper does not involve disproving catharsis, just that cathartic aggression leads to more aggression.
I don't know if there's an easy solution for this. Bots can't do the job well enough, either banning too much (like overzealous word censors) or banning too little, and they don't know context. They also can't do anything about what is said and done through voice chat. The other solution that seems possible is community moderators, but I don't imagine there would be too many people who would want to spend their time reviewing whether someone is toxic, and it would be too expensive to employ people to do it.
Side note: community servers basically solve this problem and I pretty much play exclusively on them nowadays. they have custom maps, usually a dedicated admin team that plays as they mod so they get context, and the general skill of the players is higher.
Side side note: this might be inflammatory or intentionally ignorant, but unless you're some big community figure, when has muting/blocking people not been enough? I understand it sucks to be bullied/harassed but it's not like you're completely defenseless. Of course it's awful that it happens and shouldn't happen it all, but there are some tools to help
Say something they don't like, play poorly (or too well), or just have an avatar that makes you stand out in some way. Maybe wait for that guy you dominated to get autobalanced. Votekicked. Not fun feeling it, not fun seeing it happen.