A lot of these comments are quite concerning for me. Melatonin is not a sleeping pill, melatonin is a hormone that regulates circadian rhythm. It absolutely should not be used to induce drowsiness...
Exemplary
A lot of these comments are quite concerning for me.
Melatonin is not a sleeping pill, melatonin is a hormone that regulates circadian rhythm. It absolutely should not be used to induce drowsiness during daytime. Outside of the US melatonin is not available OTC.
According to practice guidelines from the American Academy of Sleep Medicine (2017) and the American College of Physicians (2016), there’s not enough strong evidence on the effectiveness or safety of melatonin supplementation for chronic insomnia to recommend its use. The American College of Physicians guidelines strongly recommend the use of cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I) as an initial treatment for insomnia.
There apparently are some genuine health concerns about excessive melatonin supplementation. Sex hormone disruption seems most concerning, and I definitely don't think you should be giving it to children.
Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism: Hypogonadism is a condition in which your testes or ovaries produce little or no sex hormones. Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is a form of hypogonadism that’s due to an issue with your pituitary gland or hypothalamus.
Polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS): PCOS is a hormonal imbalance caused by your ovaries creating excess male hormones.
I know this comment comes across as "too bad to be true" or fear mongering, but ask yourself, who told you melatonin was good for sleep? Why is this belief so common in the US?
Edit: I should add that the incidence of excessively high melatonin resulting in endocrine disruption seems incredibly low. Probably it's only a concern if you're taking large doses daily.
I’m confused because I don’t think anyone has mentioned trying to do that. Taking melatonin to get to sleep (in the evening) isn’t a crazy idea. Here is the Cleveland Clinic’s article about it.
It absolutely should not be used to induce drowsiness during daytime.
I’m confused because I don’t think anyone has mentioned trying to do that. Taking melatonin to get to sleep (in the evening) isn’t a crazy idea. Here is the Cleveland Clinic’s article about it.
In the article you linked: and then later This largely seems to agree with @Lucid's claims.
In the article you linked:
Broadly speaking, Dr. Goldman doesn’t have recommendations for children when using melatonin. In most cases with teens or younger children, trouble falling asleep is a behavioral issue or it could be a sign of an underlying medical condition. In these cases, Dr. Goldman recommends working with a pediatrician or sleep medicine provider to diagnose the problem before using melatonin.
and then later
It’s also important to note that some sleep disorders, like insomnia, can gradually worsen when you take melatonin, especially if you’re taking higher doses (or taking it too early in the day or too late in the evening).
“A person who has trouble falling asleep or staying asleep no matter what time it is won’t benefit much from melatonin,” says Dr. Roth.
Melatonin works differently for everyone, and doctor recommendations vary based on your diagnosis and sleep history. With chronic conditions like insomnia or other similar sleep disorders, it’s best to see a sleep specialist to get a correct diagnosis and consider cognitive behavioral therapy or other treatments.
Nightshift workers. People suffering from jet lag or with insomnia. Heavy partiers / alcoholics / addicts. My best friend (RIP) used to regularly drink NyQuil to fall asleep during the day after a...
Nightshift workers. People suffering from jet lag or with insomnia. Heavy partiers / alcoholics / addicts. My best friend (RIP) used to regularly drink NyQuil to fall asleep during the day after a long hard night, or several days straight, of cocaine fueled binge drinking (which I also used to partake in, although not the NyQuil drinking). So I'm sure it's not all that uncommon for people to take melatonin during the day under those circumstances too, especially since it's OTC, and so perceived as being totally safe. And it certainly doesn't help that the potential health risks are downplayed so much too. E.g. I never knew about them before this thread.
Melatonin is fantastic if you're traveling a lot. Sure, an hour or two of jetlag is annoying, but it'll pass. Eight or more hour time changes are horrendous though, and the best bet without...
Melatonin is fantastic if you're traveling a lot. Sure, an hour or two of jetlag is annoying, but it'll pass. Eight or more hour time changes are horrendous though, and the best bet without something like melatonin to speed up the transition is to stay up for as close to 24 hours as you can, which can be downright impossible if you have to make it from an "interior" to a major city and then board a transoceanic flight.
It's not about drowsiness, it's more about that subtle sense of "well, yeah, I've been awake long enough for my taste, might as well turn in".
I'm not sure, but the portions I quoted attested to doctors not recommending it for chronic insomnia or for children, which are the subject of this article.
I'm not sure, but the portions I quoted attested to doctors not recommending it for chronic insomnia or for children, which are the subject of this article.
From the press release: The article makes this sound alarming (experts are concerned), but another interpretation is that so far, nobody seems to have noticed it doing kids much harm, despite...
From the press release:
During 2017–18, only about 1.3% of U.S. parents reported that their children used melatonin.
To get a sense of the current prevalence of use, Hartstein and colleagues surveyed about 1,000 parents in the first half of 2023.
Among children ages 5 to 9, 18.5% had been given melatonin in the previous 30 days. For preteens ages 10 to 13, that number rose to 19.4%. Nearly 6% of preschoolers ages 1 to 4 had used melatonin in the previous month.
Preschoolers who used melatonin had been taking it for a median length of a year. Grade-schoolers and preteens had used it for median lengths of 18 and 21 months, respectively.
The older the child, the greater the dosage, with preschoolers taking anywhere from 0.25 to 2 mg and preteens taking up to 10 mg.
The article makes this sound alarming (experts are concerned), but another interpretation is that so far, nobody seems to have noticed it doing kids much harm, despite widespread use and likely misuse? Whatever problems there are probably aren't immediately obvious.
One problem might be building up a tolerance:
Anecdotally, she has heard from parents that the supplement often works well in the beginning but over time children may need higher doses to achieve the same effect.
More study is needed, of course.
I have sometimes taken melatonin for jet-lag like symptoms from staying up too late. When I do it's the kind marketed for children because that has the lowest dose. I was influenced by Scott Alexander's article which says that commonly-available dosages are way too high:
What is the right dose of melatonin?
0.3 mg.
“But my local drugstore sells 10 mg pills! When I asked if they had anything lower, they looked through their stockroom and were eventually able to find 3 mg pills! And you’re saying the correct dose is a third of a milligram?!”
Yes. Most existing melatonin tablets are around ten to thirty times the correct dose.
...
Based on a bunch of studies that either favor the lower dose or show no difference between doses, plus clear evidence that 0.3 mg produces an effect closest to natural melatonin spikes in healthy people, plus UpToDate usually having the best recommendations, I’m in favor of the 0.3 mg number. I think you could make an argument for anything up to 1 mg. Anything beyond that and you’re definitely too high. Excess melatonin isn’t grossly dangerous, but tends to produce tolerance and might mess up your chronobiology in other ways.
He also gives possibly useful advice for what time of day to take it, and probably people get that wrong too. (As I did; I don't remember reading that part.)
What would worry me about this is that apparently 6% of parents start off giving melatonin to their toddlers. And the trend amongst age ranges seems to suggest parents will just continue giving it...
What would worry me about this is that apparently 6% of parents start off giving melatonin to their toddlers. And the trend amongst age ranges seems to suggest parents will just continue giving it to their kids once they start.
So…what happens if from age 2 up until teenage/young adult years you grow up taking melatonin regularly? Would you even be able to sleep without it? Would your body even produce the correct amount for a normal person? What would happen to a person if suddenly they couldn’t get melatonin anymore (shortages, financial problems, etc)?
Maybe it’s fine, and you could just ween yourself off of it. But I’d be interested if there have been any studies done on this.
Seconding low dose melatonin from my own anecdotal experience. I used to take 5 mg pills because that was what was available to me. They worked, but even if I slept all night on them I never woke...
Seconding low dose melatonin from my own anecdotal experience.
I used to take 5 mg pills because that was what was available to me. They worked, but even if I slept all night on them I never woke up feeling like I’d slept well. Also, after waking up, there was a lingering “underwater” feeling, similar to a hangover, that made it almost not worth it. I’d feel “off” for hours the next morning.
A user here clued me in to lowering the dose, so I used a pill cutter to quarter the 5 mg tablets and found a marked difference — better sleep and a less drastic rebound in the morning.
I finally bit the bullet and went online and ordered some 300 mcg tablets (effectively quartering the dosage again), and they work even better than the quartered pills. They still give me the nudge to help me go to sleep (though it is admittedly less powerful), but they don’t leave me in a semi-functional state the following morning either.
Hey, me too! Every time I have tried taking melatonin as a sleep aid I've had insanely vivid+disturbing dreams, woken up feeling like I hadn't actually slept, and also felt super strange the day...
Hey, me too! Every time I have tried taking melatonin as a sleep aid I've had insanely vivid+disturbing dreams, woken up feeling like I hadn't actually slept, and also felt super strange the day after, not dissimilar to how I've felt after being under general anesthesia. Lingering "underwater" feeling is a good description of it too though. So maybe I should give significantly lowering the dose a try as well.
If you partake, one of the things I do is take a quick hit of THC alongside taking a half of a melatonin pill. I'm usually pretty knocked out after that haha. Though lowering the dose by itself...
If you partake, one of the things I do is take a quick hit of THC alongside taking a half of a melatonin pill. I'm usually pretty knocked out after that haha. Though lowering the dose by itself has been recommended by my friends in pharmacy so I'd recommend that first!
THC tends to make me hyper, so I can't smoke weed (or eat edibles) before bed. It's great for when I need to do some house cleaning or yard work though. :P
THC tends to make me hyper, so I can't smoke weed (or eat edibles) before bed. It's great for when I need to do some house cleaning or yard work though. :P
I've personally never found there to be as drastic a difference between the strains as other people usually report. They both hit me about the same. Indicas with higher CBD do tend to give me a...
I've personally never found there to be as drastic a difference between the strains as other people usually report. They both hit me about the same. Indicas with higher CBD do tend to give me a slightly stronger body buzz though.
I've heard magnesium is a good option. That said I'd also try other things like cooler sleep environments or weighted blankets. https://www.sleepfoundation.org/magnesium
I've heard magnesium is a good option. That said I'd also try other things like cooler sleep environments or weighted blankets.
It's incredibly important to point out here that melatonin, since it's a supplement, is basically unregulated in the US. When tests have been run on pills sold in drugstores there a ton of...
But my local drugstore sells 10 mg pills!
It's incredibly important to point out here that melatonin, since it's a supplement, is basically unregulated in the US. When tests have been run on pills sold in drugstores there a ton of variation in dose between pills in the same bottle, so it's incredibly difficult to actually ensure you're getting the quantity advertised, much less any sort of smaller titration.
The article says to look for the USP Verified Mark. A search doesn't find melatonin with dosages below 2.5 mg, though there are gummy bears so they could be split. Apparently CVS requires...
The article says to look for the USP Verified Mark. A search doesn't find melatonin with dosages below 2.5 mg, though there are gummy bears so they could be split.
Regarding dosage, I have had reason to Google, and find out in relief, that there's no known LD50 (lethal dosage for 50% of people who take it, basically what's meant by "lethal dosage") for...
Regarding dosage, I have had reason to Google, and find out in relief, that there's no known LD50 (lethal dosage for 50% of people who take it, basically what's meant by "lethal dosage") for melatonin.
Never been happier to find that out. Though it sounds like it's often being used wrong. I'm glad to know that there does not appear to be at least an immediate effect for high doses.
While this is true, there have been a couple cases in which kids died in the hospital after being admitted for ingesting huge amounts of melatonin (though we don't know for sure that the melatonin...
lethal dosage
While this is true, there have been a couple cases in which kids died in the hospital after being admitted for ingesting huge amounts of melatonin (though we don't know for sure that the melatonin is to blame). Calls to poison control and hospitalizations for ingestion of large amounts of melatonin have been rising significantly in the US recently.
My source is this chubbyemu video, but afaik he cites the actual studies in there.
Yeah I had not considered how impossible it is to study the impact of something fully unregulated by the FDA. All it takes is a manufacturer lying about their ingredients. I'm not sure if the...
Yeah I had not considered how impossible it is to study the impact of something fully unregulated by the FDA. All it takes is a manufacturer lying about their ingredients.
I'm not sure if the increase in calls is just a reflection of the increased use in homes (and thus accidental poisonings are higher), increased access by children and thus its increased use in suicide attempts or just accidental poisonings, or increased toxicity. If I'd had it at home and my kid had gotten some, I'd definitely call even if I thought it was harmless.
Anyway, I was very happy a college student wasn't going to die, but I wasn't making any statement about it's broader use. I just accept my sleep schedule is fucked up.
I give my children (under 9, but older than 3) melatonin. We give them the gummies in part because we can split them and give them a more appropriate dose (as alluded to in @skybrian's comment)...
I give my children (under 9, but older than 3) melatonin. We give them the gummies in part because we can split them and give them a more appropriate dose (as alluded to in @skybrian's comment) But typically only if they're chronically sleep-deprived or sick...usually hand-in-hand.
My elder child doesn't nap. But when they are sick, they really want to nap because they're getting crap sleep at night. Giving them a small dose helps get them to nap or sleep better when they otherwise wouldn't be able to. They're too small to have the same luxury of pounding down a bunch of NyQuil or Robitussin and dropping into a semi-coma with crazy fever dreams. I mean, I guess I could load them up with some Tylenol, that did have some degree of effect when they were younger, but that's not exactly any better than a small dose of melatonin.
For my family at least, the time of year the study was done would drastically impact my answers. Ask me if they've had melatonin in the last 90 days in August? Answer is 95% likely to be no. Ask me in January if they've had it in the last 30 days, and you've got a solid 75% chance of that being 'Yes'.
I would love to see a meta-study which analyzed results based on when the studies were conducted.
Edit: For any parents interested in this, Zarabees gummies. They already have a lower dose than most other things, and their bottle-directions are like 3 gummies for a 6+ year old, when a single gummy does the trick, and it's pretty easy to dice one up smaller for a younger kid. As the article indicated, there's a chance the bottle is wrong, but you gotta trust the system at some point, right?
Careful mentioning Tylenol; you may end up summoning @wervenyt!
I mean, I guess I could load them up with some Tylenol, that did have some degree of effect when they were younger, but that's not exactly any better than a small dose of melatonin.
Careful mentioning Tylenol; you may end up summoning @wervenyt!
They know I'm not anti-Tylenol, I'm just fairly convinced the only thing it's really good at is fever reduction and a touch of drowsiness. The exact use case for it here. :)
They know I'm not anti-Tylenol, I'm just fairly convinced the only thing it's really good at is fever reduction and a touch of drowsiness. The exact use case for it here. :)
I didn't get it either. But I also got kicked up a flight of stairs for telling my mother I didn't want to clean anymore, #80s. My parents refused to get my sister tested for ADHD and she barely...
I didn't get it either. But I also got kicked up a flight of stairs for telling my mother I didn't want to clean anymore, #80s. My parents refused to get my sister tested for ADHD and she barely functioned until she was 23 and sought out her own psychiatrist/therapist, #90s. The point is we try to do better than our own parents and letting our kids have medicine when they need it is part of that equation. As a counter-case I have a friend whom is proud he's never given his child Tylenol or Ibuprofen despite the kid being sick with a 103 fever. I am not a fan of this parenting.
But the reason is because well-rested children are happy, well-behaved children that are much more likely to respond reasonably when not getting their way. Overtired children will fight tooth and nail about everything, including hating food that they loved less than a week ago. They'll take an extra hour to fall asleep because they've got delusional energy.
Sick, overtired children don't sit and rest so that they feel better sooner. They bounce off the walls and then fight bedtime and are sick for an extra few days.
Many of my children's peers are getting 2-4 hours less sleep a night than mine, which puts them 1-4 less hours than reccomended by pediatricians. And it shows in behavioral differences between them and their friends.
Bear in mind: I'm talking maybe 4 doses a month between September and March. I'm not drugging them daily. I rarely even offer it unless I know they're having problems. So far they haven't had any since last February, despite 1 bad sickness.
Next day edit: Gave first dose since February. Reason: Child got only 6 hours of sleep last night because cat came and bothered them the rest of the night and they didn't bother to ask for help. They don't have school tomorrow so they can sleep in a bit more than their sleep cycle usually lets them.
Good to know I'm not alone. Plane trips, crappy nights sleep, sickness, etc and I'll give my kids a 1mg pill cut in half and send them to bed early. We can tell within a few minutes if them...
Good to know I'm not alone. Plane trips, crappy nights sleep, sickness, etc and I'll give my kids a 1mg pill cut in half and send them to bed early.
We can tell within a few minutes if them getting up if they got a good nights rest. The two biggest things that we've found that impact my kids behavior is sleep and exercise. When they get food sleep then bike to school, they don't misbehave much. The days when the get driven to school or don't get good sleep, they are more cranky and misbehave more.
Melatonin is a regulator of circadian rhythm and can be useful in the treatment of jetlag, but the evidence for it's use in insomnia is pretty shaky. That said it's a powerful antioxidant and...
Melatonin is a regulator of circadian rhythm and can be useful in the treatment of jetlag, but the evidence for it's use in insomnia is pretty shaky.
That said it's a powerful antioxidant and as far as we know supplementation doesn't appear to be harmful. Supplementation may be related to hormone disruption, see my other top level comment.
I think the real concern is how we seek to medicate things before trying to make lifestyle adjustments.
That’s a rather vague concern. Some people somewhere might be using medication incorrectly. In this case, there are probably people using melatonin incorrectly. But I expect that with experience...
That’s a rather vague concern. Some people somewhere might be using medication incorrectly. In this case, there are probably people using melatonin incorrectly. But I expect that with experience and education, people will get better at it.
It would help if high doses were less prominent in stores.
So in the EU, melatonin is not available OTC and I've never heard of it being prescribed. The idea of people self medicating insomnia with melatonin is something that only really exists in the US,...
So in the EU, melatonin is not available OTC and I've never heard of it being prescribed.
The idea of people self medicating insomnia with melatonin is something that only really exists in the US, and I'm pretty sure doctors don't recommend it.
I don't consider it a vague concern, I think the vast majority of melatonin use in the US is self medication, based on a pop-science understanding that it's a "sleepy drug".
Melatonin the US is sold as a "dietary supplement" and any health claims on the packaging are appended with "THIS CLAIM HAS NOT BEEN TESTED BY THE FDA".
It's not even really insomnia. We just work disgusting hours with a disgusting lack of time off and then wonder why we have trouble getting to bed in time to get up for a job that starts when our...
It's not even really insomnia. We just work disgusting hours with a disgusting lack of time off and then wonder why we have trouble getting to bed in time to get up for a job that starts when our internal clock is telling us we should still be asleep. And school starts even earlier than those jobs, with high school, the time kids are biologically built to be on the latest schedule of their lives, starting the earliest. It's abject insanity.
There's also the whole daylight saving time thing making it even worse.
Because I lived in the US for 8 years, and I'm aware of the common misconceptions. Here's an expert statement saying the same thing. Source Emphasis mine.
Because I lived in the US for 8 years, and I'm aware of the common misconceptions. Here's an expert statement saying the same thing.
“There are some clinical uses for it, but not the way that it’s marketed and used by the vast majority of the general public,” said Jennifer Martin, a psychologist and professor of medicine at the University of California, Los Angeles.
I’ve only taken melatonin myself a few times in the past many years ago, but anecdotally, I know a lot of parents who give their kids melatonin regularly. They are parents who haven’t been able to...
I’ve only taken melatonin myself a few times in the past many years ago, but anecdotally, I know a lot of parents who give their kids melatonin regularly. They are parents who haven’t been able to successfully sleep train their children for whatever nature or nurture reason, and they’re all still struggling with their kids’ sleep schedules through the age of 5 or 6 regardless of melatonin regimen.
I took a half of a 1.5mg gummy one time and the side effects were awful enough that I never took it again (and thankfully so far likely won't have to anyway). I got incredibly shivery and cold for...
I took a half of a 1.5mg gummy one time and the side effects were awful enough that I never took it again (and thankfully so far likely won't have to anyway).
I got incredibly shivery and cold for about 30 minutes, that said, it did work, and incredibly strongly- I was nearly falling asleep standing up getting ready for bed and just had to lay down immediately so that it didn't make me pass out.
Wow, that's a strong reaction. I use melatonin very frequently due to doing shift work and having an unpredictable schedule. I ONLY every take it while I'm already in bed and when I actually want...
Wow, that's a strong reaction.
I use melatonin very frequently due to doing shift work and having an unpredictable schedule. I ONLY every take it while I'm already in bed and when I actually want to sleep, like pop the tab under the tongue, read Tildes for another minute, phone down *try* to sleep. I also almost exclusively take it when trying to sleep during the day; I almost never use it when I'm following normal sleep patterns.
ETA: I find melatonin is like caffeine. Most people react a certain way but there are outliers who have extreme or underwhelming responses. Also a comment on the chills... Feeling cold is a normal response to being tired/fatigued so its interesting that melatonin did that to you.
Yeah I feel like maybe the melatonin slightly lowered body temperature as a part of its mechanism of making me sleepy, but maybe affected me too strongly? I'm not sure, but it does appear that my...
Yeah I feel like maybe the melatonin slightly lowered body temperature as a part of its mechanism of making me sleepy, but maybe affected me too strongly? I'm not sure, but it does appear that my side effects were quite rare- so I don't mean to put anyone off the idea of taking it if they need to- just know that even things that are widely considered safe and low on side effects occasionally still can be a problem.
That said, I never seemed to be in any 'danger', just very uncomfortable before falling asleep- but it was a bit scary at the time, because the involuntary shivering was bad enough that there was no way to stop it.
I honestly don't know how to feel about it being administered to children. I don't have kids but would potentially feel uncomfortable giving it to them if I did. I suppose if it's studied enough to be safe it's fine. I wonder about dependency, unknown effects on kids specifically (since they're still growing), other side effects (morning grogginess/irritability, crazy dreams). I guess as long as lot of care is taken then it's fine, but I suppose it's concerning that its use is 'soaring'- are we chasing symptoms and ignoring a cause?
Like I said earlier, I use it frequently due to my line of work. I know the side effects I have (mainly just groggy) and I just accept that as an acceptable exchange for being rested at work. I...
Like I said earlier, I use it frequently due to my line of work. I know the side effects I have (mainly just groggy) and I just accept that as an acceptable exchange for being rested at work.
I still wouldn't suggest it to most people and I wouldn't give it to my kids.
are we chasing symptoms and ignoring a cause?
Ya, pretty much this. Also after using it a few times it doesn't knock you out in the same way so you NEED to be addressing some of the other issues. This is probably why some people say it doesn't work.
A lot of these comments are quite concerning for me.
Melatonin is not a sleeping pill, melatonin is a hormone that regulates circadian rhythm. It absolutely should not be used to induce drowsiness during daytime. Outside of the US melatonin is not available OTC.
From the NIH
For insomnia:
There apparently are some genuine health concerns about excessive melatonin supplementation. Sex hormone disruption seems most concerning, and I definitely don't think you should be giving it to children.
From the section on Hypermelatoninemia from Cleveland Clinic
I know this comment comes across as "too bad to be true" or fear mongering, but ask yourself, who told you melatonin was good for sleep? Why is this belief so common in the US?
Edit: I should add that the incidence of excessively high melatonin resulting in endocrine disruption seems incredibly low. Probably it's only a concern if you're taking large doses daily.
That's not true. It's OTC in Canada as well.
I’m confused because I don’t think anyone has mentioned trying to do that. Taking melatonin to get to sleep (in the evening) isn’t a crazy idea. Here is the Cleveland Clinic’s article about it.
In the article you linked:
and then later
This largely seems to agree with @Lucid's claims.
That's not responding to my implicit question, though: who is trying to use melatonin to be drowsy in the daytime? Why would anyone do that?
Nightshift workers. People suffering from jet lag or with insomnia. Heavy partiers / alcoholics / addicts. My best friend (RIP) used to regularly drink NyQuil to fall asleep during the day after a long hard night, or several days straight, of cocaine fueled binge drinking (which I also used to partake in, although not the NyQuil drinking). So I'm sure it's not all that uncommon for people to take melatonin during the day under those circumstances too, especially since it's OTC, and so perceived as being totally safe. And it certainly doesn't help that the potential health risks are downplayed so much too. E.g. I never knew about them before this thread.
Melatonin is fantastic if you're traveling a lot. Sure, an hour or two of jetlag is annoying, but it'll pass. Eight or more hour time changes are horrendous though, and the best bet without something like melatonin to speed up the transition is to stay up for as close to 24 hours as you can, which can be downright impossible if you have to make it from an "interior" to a major city and then board a transoceanic flight.
It's not about drowsiness, it's more about that subtle sense of "well, yeah, I've been awake long enough for my taste, might as well turn in".
I'm not sure, but the portions I quoted attested to doctors not recommending it for chronic insomnia or for children, which are the subject of this article.
From the press release:
The article makes this sound alarming (experts are concerned), but another interpretation is that so far, nobody seems to have noticed it doing kids much harm, despite widespread use and likely misuse? Whatever problems there are probably aren't immediately obvious.
One problem might be building up a tolerance:
More study is needed, of course.
I have sometimes taken melatonin for jet-lag like symptoms from staying up too late. When I do it's the kind marketed for children because that has the lowest dose. I was influenced by Scott Alexander's article which says that commonly-available dosages are way too high:
...
He also gives possibly useful advice for what time of day to take it, and probably people get that wrong too. (As I did; I don't remember reading that part.)
What would worry me about this is that apparently 6% of parents start off giving melatonin to their toddlers. And the trend amongst age ranges seems to suggest parents will just continue giving it to their kids once they start.
So…what happens if from age 2 up until teenage/young adult years you grow up taking melatonin regularly? Would you even be able to sleep without it? Would your body even produce the correct amount for a normal person? What would happen to a person if suddenly they couldn’t get melatonin anymore (shortages, financial problems, etc)?
Maybe it’s fine, and you could just ween yourself off of it. But I’d be interested if there have been any studies done on this.
Seconding low dose melatonin from my own anecdotal experience.
I used to take 5 mg pills because that was what was available to me. They worked, but even if I slept all night on them I never woke up feeling like I’d slept well. Also, after waking up, there was a lingering “underwater” feeling, similar to a hangover, that made it almost not worth it. I’d feel “off” for hours the next morning.
A user here clued me in to lowering the dose, so I used a pill cutter to quarter the 5 mg tablets and found a marked difference — better sleep and a less drastic rebound in the morning.
I finally bit the bullet and went online and ordered some 300 mcg tablets (effectively quartering the dosage again), and they work even better than the quartered pills. They still give me the nudge to help me go to sleep (though it is admittedly less powerful), but they don’t leave me in a semi-functional state the following morning either.
Hey, me too! Every time I have tried taking melatonin as a sleep aid I've had insanely vivid+disturbing dreams, woken up feeling like I hadn't actually slept, and also felt super strange the day after, not dissimilar to how I've felt after being under general anesthesia. Lingering "underwater" feeling is a good description of it too though. So maybe I should give significantly lowering the dose a try as well.
If you partake, one of the things I do is take a quick hit of THC alongside taking a half of a melatonin pill. I'm usually pretty knocked out after that haha. Though lowering the dose by itself has been recommended by my friends in pharmacy so I'd recommend that first!
THC tends to make me hyper, so I can't smoke weed (or eat edibles) before bed. It's great for when I need to do some house cleaning or yard work though. :P
totally feel that, I feel like I'm more hyper with sativa strains, so indica strains are what I usually use now but that's neither here nor there!
I've personally never found there to be as drastic a difference between the strains as other people usually report. They both hit me about the same. Indicas with higher CBD do tend to give me a slightly stronger body buzz though.
I've heard magnesium is a good option. That said I'd also try other things like cooler sleep environments or weighted blankets.
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/magnesium
It's incredibly important to point out here that melatonin, since it's a supplement, is basically unregulated in the US. When tests have been run on pills sold in drugstores there a ton of variation in dose between pills in the same bottle, so it's incredibly difficult to actually ensure you're getting the quantity advertised, much less any sort of smaller titration.
The article says to look for the USP Verified Mark. A search doesn't find melatonin with dosages below 2.5 mg, though there are gummy bears so they could be split.
Apparently CVS requires supplements to be tested? Walgreens announced a similar program in 2022. I don't know how good any of these testing programs are.
Regarding dosage, I have had reason to Google, and find out in relief, that there's no known LD50 (lethal dosage for 50% of people who take it, basically what's meant by "lethal dosage") for melatonin.
Never been happier to find that out. Though it sounds like it's often being used wrong. I'm glad to know that there does not appear to be at least an immediate effect for high doses.
While this is true, there have been a couple cases in which kids died in the hospital after being admitted for ingesting huge amounts of melatonin (though we don't know for sure that the melatonin is to blame). Calls to poison control and hospitalizations for ingestion of large amounts of melatonin have been rising significantly in the US recently.
My source is this chubbyemu video, but afaik he cites the actual studies in there.
Yeah I had not considered how impossible it is to study the impact of something fully unregulated by the FDA. All it takes is a manufacturer lying about their ingredients.
I'm not sure if the increase in calls is just a reflection of the increased use in homes (and thus accidental poisonings are higher), increased access by children and thus its increased use in suicide attempts or just accidental poisonings, or increased toxicity. If I'd had it at home and my kid had gotten some, I'd definitely call even if I thought it was harmless.
Anyway, I was very happy a college student wasn't going to die, but I wasn't making any statement about it's broader use. I just accept my sleep schedule is fucked up.
oh yeah I mostly just was reminded of this video and wanted to share, I'm also glad whoever you knew didn't die lol
Is there more research on what is the accepted reasonable dosage of melatonin to take?
The Scott Alexander article links to studies. I don't know enough to judge them myself.
I give my children (under 9, but older than 3) melatonin. We give them the gummies in part because we can split them and give them a more appropriate dose (as alluded to in @skybrian's comment) But typically only if they're chronically sleep-deprived or sick...usually hand-in-hand.
My elder child doesn't nap. But when they are sick, they really want to nap because they're getting crap sleep at night. Giving them a small dose helps get them to nap or sleep better when they otherwise wouldn't be able to. They're too small to have the same luxury of pounding down a bunch of NyQuil or Robitussin and dropping into a semi-coma with crazy fever dreams. I mean, I guess I could load them up with some Tylenol, that did have some degree of effect when they were younger, but that's not exactly any better than a small dose of melatonin.
For my family at least, the time of year the study was done would drastically impact my answers. Ask me if they've had melatonin in the last 90 days in August? Answer is 95% likely to be no. Ask me in January if they've had it in the last 30 days, and you've got a solid 75% chance of that being 'Yes'.
I would love to see a meta-study which analyzed results based on when the studies were conducted.
Edit: For any parents interested in this, Zarabees gummies. They already have a lower dose than most other things, and their bottle-directions are like 3 gummies for a 6+ year old, when a single gummy does the trick, and it's pretty easy to dice one up smaller for a younger kid. As the article indicated, there's a chance the bottle is wrong, but you gotta trust the system at some point, right?
Careful mentioning Tylenol; you may end up summoning @wervenyt!
They know I'm not anti-Tylenol, I'm just fairly convinced the only thing it's really good at is fever reduction and a touch of drowsiness. The exact use case for it here. :)
boo
Why do you give them melatonin? I don’t remember ever getting melatonin when I was growing up
I didn't get it either. But I also got kicked up a flight of stairs for telling my mother I didn't want to clean anymore, #80s. My parents refused to get my sister tested for ADHD and she barely functioned until she was 23 and sought out her own psychiatrist/therapist, #90s. The point is we try to do better than our own parents and letting our kids have medicine when they need it is part of that equation. As a counter-case I have a friend whom is proud he's never given his child Tylenol or Ibuprofen despite the kid being sick with a 103 fever. I am not a fan of this parenting.
But the reason is because well-rested children are happy, well-behaved children that are much more likely to respond reasonably when not getting their way. Overtired children will fight tooth and nail about everything, including hating food that they loved less than a week ago. They'll take an extra hour to fall asleep because they've got delusional energy.
Sick, overtired children don't sit and rest so that they feel better sooner. They bounce off the walls and then fight bedtime and are sick for an extra few days.
Many of my children's peers are getting 2-4 hours less sleep a night than mine, which puts them 1-4 less hours than reccomended by pediatricians. And it shows in behavioral differences between them and their friends.
Bear in mind: I'm talking maybe 4 doses a month between September and March. I'm not drugging them daily. I rarely even offer it unless I know they're having problems. So far they haven't had any since last February, despite 1 bad sickness.
Next day edit: Gave first dose since February. Reason: Child got only 6 hours of sleep last night because cat came and bothered them the rest of the night and they didn't bother to ask for help. They don't have school tomorrow so they can sleep in a bit more than their sleep cycle usually lets them.
Good to know I'm not alone. Plane trips, crappy nights sleep, sickness, etc and I'll give my kids a 1mg pill cut in half and send them to bed early.
We can tell within a few minutes if them getting up if they got a good nights rest. The two biggest things that we've found that impact my kids behavior is sleep and exercise. When they get food sleep then bike to school, they don't misbehave much. The days when the get driven to school or don't get good sleep, they are more cranky and misbehave more.
Ah, I understand now. It seemed as though it was a daily thing from your initial message, which I struggled to understand
I'm a bit sleep deprived and suffering insomnia. I suspect I'm at least a little neurodivergent to boot. No judgement or anger.
Melatonin is a regulator of circadian rhythm and can be useful in the treatment of jetlag, but the evidence for it's use in insomnia is pretty shaky.
That said it's a powerful antioxidant and
as far as we know supplementation doesn't appear to be harmful.Supplementation may be related to hormone disruption, see my other top level comment.I think the real concern is how we seek to medicate things before trying to make lifestyle adjustments.
That’s a rather vague concern. Some people somewhere might be using medication incorrectly. In this case, there are probably people using melatonin incorrectly. But I expect that with experience and education, people will get better at it.
It would help if high doses were less prominent in stores.
So in the EU, melatonin is not available OTC and I've never heard of it being prescribed.
The idea of people self medicating insomnia with melatonin is something that only really exists in the US, and I'm pretty sure doctors don't recommend it.
I don't consider it a vague concern, I think the vast majority of melatonin use in the US is self medication, based on a pop-science understanding that it's a "sleepy drug".
Melatonin the US is sold as a "dietary supplement" and any health claims on the packaging are appended with "THIS CLAIM HAS NOT BEEN TESTED BY THE FDA".
It's not even really insomnia. We just work disgusting hours with a disgusting lack of time off and then wonder why we have trouble getting to bed in time to get up for a job that starts when our internal clock is telling us we should still be asleep. And school starts even earlier than those jobs, with high school, the time kids are biologically built to be on the latest schedule of their lives, starting the earliest. It's abject insanity.
There's also the whole daylight saving time thing making it even worse.
How do you know what people in the US know about melatonin?
Because I lived in the US for 8 years, and I'm aware of the common misconceptions. Here's an expert statement saying the same thing.
Source
Emphasis mine.
I’ve only taken melatonin myself a few times in the past many years ago, but anecdotally, I know a lot of parents who give their kids melatonin regularly. They are parents who haven’t been able to successfully sleep train their children for whatever nature or nurture reason, and they’re all still struggling with their kids’ sleep schedules through the age of 5 or 6 regardless of melatonin regimen.
Huh. Interesting. Do you know anything more about how they use it?
They just give it to their kids before bed hoping that will get them to sleep through the night. That's about all I know.
I took a half of a 1.5mg gummy one time and the side effects were awful enough that I never took it again (and thankfully so far likely won't have to anyway).
I got incredibly shivery and cold for about 30 minutes, that said, it did work, and incredibly strongly- I was nearly falling asleep standing up getting ready for bed and just had to lay down immediately so that it didn't make me pass out.
Wow, that's a strong reaction.
I use melatonin very frequently due to doing shift work and having an unpredictable schedule. I ONLY every take it while I'm already in bed and when I actually want to sleep, like pop the tab under the tongue, read Tildes for another minute, phone down *try* to sleep. I also almost exclusively take it when trying to sleep during the day; I almost never use it when I'm following normal sleep patterns.
ETA: I find melatonin is like caffeine. Most people react a certain way but there are outliers who have extreme or underwhelming responses. Also a comment on the chills... Feeling cold is a normal response to being tired/fatigued so its interesting that melatonin did that to you.
Yeah I feel like maybe the melatonin slightly lowered body temperature as a part of its mechanism of making me sleepy, but maybe affected me too strongly? I'm not sure, but it does appear that my side effects were quite rare- so I don't mean to put anyone off the idea of taking it if they need to- just know that even things that are widely considered safe and low on side effects occasionally still can be a problem.
That said, I never seemed to be in any 'danger', just very uncomfortable before falling asleep- but it was a bit scary at the time, because the involuntary shivering was bad enough that there was no way to stop it.
I honestly don't know how to feel about it being administered to children. I don't have kids but would potentially feel uncomfortable giving it to them if I did. I suppose if it's studied enough to be safe it's fine. I wonder about dependency, unknown effects on kids specifically (since they're still growing), other side effects (morning grogginess/irritability, crazy dreams). I guess as long as lot of care is taken then it's fine, but I suppose it's concerning that its use is 'soaring'- are we chasing symptoms and ignoring a cause?
Like I said earlier, I use it frequently due to my line of work. I know the side effects I have (mainly just groggy) and I just accept that as an acceptable exchange for being rested at work.
I still wouldn't suggest it to most people and I wouldn't give it to my kids.
Ya, pretty much this. Also after using it a few times it doesn't knock you out in the same way so you NEED to be addressing some of the other issues. This is probably why some people say it doesn't work.
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/jappl.1995.78.1.314
So that would probably explain your core-temp drop and the shivering.